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Conference turris::womannotes-v1

Title:ARCHIVE-- Topics of Interest to Women, Volume 1 --ARCHIVE
Notice:V1 is closed. TURRIS::WOMANNOTES-V5 is open.
Moderator:REGENT::BROOMHEAD
Created:Thu Jan 30 1986
Last Modified:Fri Jun 30 1995
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:873
Total number of notes:22329

70.0. "Business travel outside US" by SUPER::MATTHEWS (Don't panic) Wed Aug 20 1986 00:30

    I'd like to know more about how women are respected as technical
    professionals outside the US (it seems we're doing pretty well in
    this country). This has been touched on in other topics, but I don't
    remember its being discussed systematically.
                   
    What prompts this question is that the group I work in maintains its
    own employee handbook. One topic is tips for teaching at DEC training
    centers, which some of us do occasionally. We currently don't have
    tips specifically for women who travel to other countries, and I'd
    like to put some in (if indeed it's possible to generalize).
    
    My only foreign experience has been at the Reading customer training
    center. I mentioned to the manager there that my class seemed a
    bit cold and unresponsive, but sometimes you just get one of those
    classes. He said it might be that they weren't used to having a
    woman instructor, which may be true as I met only one female instructor
    while I was there.
    
    Other anecdotes deal with a woman who went to Munich, I believe to
    team-teach a Software Services class with a male associate, and found
    that the students addressed practically all their questions to the man.
    Another taught in Australia, and though I have read that it's extremely
    sexist for a modern country, she felt herself to be highly respected. 
    
    Clearly I can't generalize from these anecdotes. Any other business
    travelers who can contribute experiences? My own interest is in what to
    expect in the way of culture shock as an American, but I don't want to
    exclude natives of other countries from contributing. 
    
    Also, if you think you're getting the cold shoulder for being a woman,
    how do you deal with it? My reaction in the Reading situation was
    to ignore it, as they were a captive audience and I was confident
    I had something to teach them. I think the team-teaching situation
    might have been more difficult.
				   	Val
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70.1my experiences teaching abroadVAXWRK::GOLDENBERGRuth GoldenbergTue Aug 26 1986 21:3351
   I can tell you about my Digital teaching experiences outside the U.S., 
   although I don't know that they're very representative. I've taught 
   many 2-week VMS System Seminars in Reading, Munich, Valbonne, Nieuwegein 
   (Netherlands), and Tokyo, and several 1-week VMS announcement and/or update
   courses in Reading and Geneva, over the past 9 years. The System Seminars 
   have two instructors, and usually I taught with a man. The other courses 
   I taught alone. All these were employee courses.
   
   I don't remember very much prejudice against me as a woman. There
   was *some*, but it was pretty limited and mostly disappeared when
   students decided I knew what I was talking about.

   Your story about the woman and man team-teaching in Munich was
   familiar. Similar things have happened to me. However, in this case,
   other cultural differences *might* account for some of the difference 
   in treatment. For example, my (somewhat prejudiced) impression is that 
   many Germans are more formal in their manners and appearance than most 
   Americans and would perhaps be more impressed by a more formal instructor. 
   
   It seems to me that my European classes were generally less open
   than US ones, and that it took them longer to loosen up and feel
   comfortable asking questions and reacting to things. Some of that
   may have been cultural. It seemed also like some of it was time for
   students to get used to my accent, language use, facial expressions, and    
   also what I expected from them in the way of feedback. Also, my
   experience was that more junior (continental, not English) Digits tended
   to be less comfortable with classes taught in English than their senior 
   colleagues. I used my hands and arms a lot to try to get across.
   
   The 2 Japanese classes I taught were even less open. Traditionally,
   I was told, in Japan students did not ask questions and believed that 
   it was their fault if they didn't understand something. Also, the 
   language barrier was higher. It took considerably longer to get the
   class reacting. (My 1st class in Tokyo, ~1980, I was the only woman.
   The 2nd, ~1982, the other teacher was a woman, and there were 2
   female software specialists in the class, one of whom told me
   proudly about a female unit SWS manager in the Tokyo office.)

   I haven't ever tried anything other than ignoring prejudice and
   trying to reach the people who wanted to listen. Knowing your
   subject well and having a captive audience is a real good
   combination against that kind of prejudice, and I've been lucky
   enough so far not to have encountered any under other circumstances.
                                                                    
   If I were faced with your team-teaching example, I'd try to set some
   boundaries with the other teacher - maybe questions for certain 
   areas or subjects go to 1 person, and others to the 2nd. Or, if
   no subject division were possible, maybe the 2 could alternate answering 
   questions to spread the work. 
   
   reg
70.2BACH::NELSONFri Dec 05 1986 18:1812
    I taught the VAX LISP course in Munich this Fall.  I had a good
    time doing it.  It is hard to say how the students would have treated
    me had I been a man, because I've never been one.  But it seems
    pretty clear that the treatment I received would have been different
    had I been a man.  The difference in gender seems to be more important
    in how people treat me at first than in how they treat me after knowing
    me for a longer time.  I was there for 2 weeks, and I think generated
    the respect of those who could understand what I was saying.  I'm an
    engineer, not a teacher, so my presentation was not silky smooth.
    The students were mostly male (one female), and none American.
    
    Beryl
70.3CSSE32::PHILPOTTCSSE/Lang. & Tools, ZK02-1/N71Sat Dec 06 1986 11:2533
    I suspect  the  problem  with the team teaching experience in Munich 
    (or elsewhere in Europe) may have had very simple origins.    At the 
    beginning  of a course it is usual to have introductions, and it may 
    be, that however  inadvertantly  the  male  partner  may  have  been 
    introduced  in  such  a manner as to appear to be the senior partner 
    (it could have been something as simple as job title, or  length  of 
    service, I have seen both cause problems).
    
    Once  that  scenario  is  in  place  it is correct etiquette for the 
    students to address problems/questions to the  senior  player.   The 
    only  way  to  avoid the problem is to rehearse the introduction and 
    make sure that it has nothing to indicate seniority.
    
    In passing I remember  one  situation  in  which  something  similar 
    happened   where  one  instructor  stood  at  the  dais  during  the 
    introductions and the other sat at a desk in the  front  row,  after 
    that  most  of  the  attendees  assumed  that  the  one who had been 
    standing was senior.
    
    We learn these attitudes very early, as early as the first  time  in 
    school that a trainee teacher is introduced to the classroom.  Since 
    the trainee/trainer situation is usually the only one we  see  until 
    beyond university the cultural message is very strng (and not at all 
    sex related, as precisely the same major/minor role allocation  will 
    happen  with  two  men  or  two  women  team teaching if your aren't 
    careful) 
    
    /. Ian .\ (ex-teacher albeit male)
    
    PS during my teaching practice my mentor was an  experienced  female 
    teacxher, and I experienced this shut out in reverse -- very bad for 
    the macho image, don't you know :-)
70.4A view from Reading, UKRDGE40::KERRELLtest drive in progressMon Dec 08 1986 05:4613
I am writing this in hope that it may reassure those coming to Europe
to give courses.

I have just listed all the courses I have taken in the DP industry under
two columns, depending on whether the course tutor was male or female.
The female column won 6 to 4. I then used the list to prompt my memory
of the courses in terms of atmosphere and attitude. Of all the courses
only one had a bad atmosphere/attitude because the students knew (in some
cases) more than the tutor. That course fell in the male column.
Of all the courses I have been on that have been taught by women I cannot
remember any disrespect shown (and I *would* notice).

Dave.
70.5Language DifficultiesAYOV10::DPAGETWed Dec 17 1986 13:0818
    One anecdote and a suggestion about the team session:
    
    I was working for a different company when a (female) colleague
    and I came to London to teach a course.  My colleague and I were
    both about 25 at the time, and the 'students' (9 or 10) of them
    were all in the 45-60 age range.  We were setting up the room and
    we saw a box on the table.  When we asked what was in the box, one
    of the men responded, "it's a box of rubbers".  We asked what their
    intentions were in using these, and were quickly advised that the
    British word "rubber" refers to "pencil erasers".
    
    As for the team-teaching comment ... the most important move you
    can make when people insist on asking the male member of the team
    all the questions, is to enlist his support.  He should re-direct
    their questions to you.  After doing this two or three times, they'll
    catch on.
    
    
70.6that one threw me, too!ESPN::HENDRICKSHollyThu Dec 18 1986 10:436
    I was visiting a Canadian school about ten years ago.  I was talking
    with the principal in her school.  She answered the phone, and in
    response to a request said that she would indeed like 8 dozen
    "rubbers".  This school went up to 8th grade, so my jaw promptly
    hit the floor and stayed there until she explained that she was
    only ordering "erasers"!