Conference turris::womannotes-v1

	    I'm not on the other side of any aisle, as far as I know,
	but I do have a thought.
	    Have you considered that some male coworkers might find
	the closeness troubling?  It might be appropriate to extend
	your new habit to include new male coworkers.
			<_Jym_>

    The collection of pamphlets outside the ZK health office had an article
    on touching -- specifically, what sort of touching is appropriate in
    professional situations. It might be helpful. If that article isn't
    there any more, I think I might have kept a copy. 
    
    In any case, at work you're safer not touching, as some people
    find it discomforting. It's definitely a personal issue -- I
    happen to have been "thorny" since childhood, and I don't think
    it's sex- or gender-related.
    
    					Val

    Last year I worked on a contract assignment as a take-a-nickel writer
    at the Electric Boat division of General Dynamics, and had a cubicle
    across from an old salt, former submariner who was very physical.
    
    Not only where we both ex-navy men, but it turned out we shared
    the same hometown, though a generation apart.  Usually I have a
    lot of trouble giving and receiving simple affection, but I found
    it hard to resist loving this guy as a shipmate when he'd put his
    arm on my shoulder and go into his Wallae Beery imitation.
    
    I'm no Lou Buscaglia fan but I think it's a shame sometimes that
    we have to be so up tight at work.  Of course, as a "guest worker"
    I have to be especially careful not to give any wrong impression.

    
    Genuine affection between friends is fine, but I think people have
    to respect the fact that nobody has the right to touch anybody in
    any way who doesn't want to be touched.  No matter what comes naturally
    to us we have to always remember to consider the rights of others.
    
    
    Lorna
    

I agree with Lorna -- touching is not an innate right.  Just because
a person considers herself or himself to be  physical does not mean
that she or he has the right to touch others at will.  I love to both touch
and be touched, but not by every random person who happens to have the urge.

....Margaret

        Please don't think I feel I have a particular right to do things
        that others object to. I don't. I try quite a bit be aware of
        the needs and preferences of others. Some of us are stand-offish
        and some of us are more "touchy-feely". Some of us are quite
        constrained and others quite out-going. I try always to do
        what's right by others, but to do so I really need to know what
        that is.
        
        Understand that it isn't just an issue of touching. It's a
        question of intimacy in general. We can give unintended offense
        but standing too close, by using overly familiar language or
        forms of address, by discussing personal topics or by all sorts
        of things. One might solve this by always maintaining one's
        distance from all of one's co-workers. Never touch anyone,
        always stand at least four feet away. Address everyone as
        Mr. and Ms., never discuss personal matters. Never joke.
        
        There are two things wrong with this. First off, some people
        find stand-offishness offensive.  If you're never intimate,
        people think that you disapprove of them. The second problem is
        that it just ain't no fun, and the team doesn't work as well.
        Being able to be at ease with your coworkers, treating them as
        friends is both very pleasant and very effective.
        
        The trick is to find out where you are comfortable with each
        different person. What is OK, what isn't. The problem is the
        question of fear. If a woman thinks that an unwanted intimacy
        (be it touching, physical space, personal compliments, forms of
        address, or small talk) is a question of sexual harassment, she
        is very like not to say anything. If she doesn't say anything,
        if she justs suffers quietly through it, everyone loses.
        
        I probably wasn't clear in my base note, but the main thrust of
        my talk with female coworkers is just this: "I don't mean any
        offense or disrespect in anything I say or do. If I do something
        that you object to, please tell me. I will do everything I can
        to stop doing it." The talk seems to work. I have comfortable
        and pleasant relationships with people with widely differing
        tastes and styles. At times I catch myself doing or saying what
        I oughtn't. I stop cold and grin sheepishly, apologizing, if
        appropriate." At least we know that it is an honest mistake, and
        not malicious. 
        
        JimB. 

    Bravo for you, Jim. I come from a Mediterranean background, and
    grew up with people who expressed themselves in a very outgoing
    way. Far from being repulsed or frightened by such people, I tend
    to bask in their warmth. Tend to miss it here in cold, cold New
    England.
    
    Another kudo for being so open in explaining to people who might
    take offence. 
    
    Stel
    

I had a "touchy" friend doing so much more than was comfortable for me, even
my  grandmother  did it too much .... often for me it is how well I know the
person  and  how they are touching (or where !!!). 

The best  thing  I've  found  is  to  do what comes naturally and trust that
others will do the same ... sometimes you may have to "feel" each person out
---  read  what they're saying to you. It's the responsibility of the person
who  doesn't  like  it  just  as  much (I think more) than the person who is
doing  it  (although  if  you've  had problems with it in the past, I really
think bringing it up is a good idea).

If it  was  easier to read people, we wouldn't have to worry about this (and
introverts probably wouldn't _be_!)

    "...cold, cold New England.."???
    
    Really?????  I guess being born and bred I don't see that....  Maybe
    you're not looking in the right places....
    
    Anyway, I agree with JimB.'s approach.  His concern is not that
    he is a toucher, but that as a toucher he can be misunderstood.
    
    I, too, am a toucher.  I come from a long line of touchers.  And,
    when I was young and stupid, I let other people touch me.  When
    they chose to.  In the manner they chose to.  It made me uncomfortable
    when my "personal space" boundaries were crossed, but, what the
    Hell, who wants to make waves and shouldn't we just one friendly,
    cozy society??
    
    Then I learned the subtle art of understanding the difference between
    honesty and harassment.  Honest touching I now allow.  Harassment
    earns the perpatrator a sharp "Move it or lose it!".
    
    As a result I am more careful about my touching.  I now realize
    that not everyone views my touching in the same way....
    
    And I don't touch at work -- I have enough problems without inviting
    more.  Except once, I will admit I hugged a friend in her office,
    but that was during a highly emotional moment and we both needed
    it right then.... 
    
    bugsy

    re .9:
    I, too, was raised in New England, and for a long while could not
    understand why we are thought to be cold and unfriendly.  I now
    think that we are not those things, but are perceived to be 'cause
    as a rule we tend to be more reserved than people from other parts
    of the country.
    
    About touching in general, like .9 I have learned to distinguish
    between the friendly and the come-on approach.
    
    One of the things that amazed me when I was pregnant was that people
    I didn't know, even people I didn't like (and who knew it!) felt
    perfectly uninhibited about patting my belly.  Most would never
    have taken such a liberty at any other time.  That really bothered
    me!  It's hard to rebuff such advances; everyone seems to love and
    feel protective towards a pregnant woman, and incidently tiny babies
    (see related note, this conference).  I finally decided that such
    concern must be built into the species (some other primate species
    have similar behaviours), and that patting a pregnant woman's belly
    is something like rubbing the Buddha's belly for good luck; it is
    usually not meant to be offensive, but is offered as an expression
    of affection.  I didn't like it, though.

    Okay, I dug out the article. It appears to be from Glamour, so give it
    as much credence as you like... Perhaps this is a cold and clinical way
    to deal with an emotional response, but you may want to distinguish
    among different kinds of touching, and use the touches that are least
    likely to be misinterpreted. From the article: 
    
    HEAD: a pat is seen as condescending: "I'm the adult, you're the
    child."
    
    NECK/SHOULDER: Touches here are too friendly.
    
    SHOULDER: A firm pat conveys friendship and support.
    
    GROOMING GESTURES: Whether straightening a tie or brushing away
    lint, the touch can be interpreted as patronizing.
    
    ELBOW: A touch adds emphasis to your message. 
    
    HAND: A momentary touch reassures.
    
    HIP: Any touch below the waist carries sexual overtones.

    [The article has a few more suggestions, but in general it's
    inconclusive -- I guess this is a tough problem. It says you are never
    wrong *not* to touch, but the experts quoted have varying opinions on
    what constitutes an appropriate touch. Some other tips from the
    article:] 
    
    Don't use touch to get someone's attention. Tapping people on the
    shoulder while they're talking or concentrating will only serve
    to distract and irritate them.
    
    Bosses should avoid touching their subordinates while criticizing
    them, even when the criticism is constructive.
    
    Do not initiate touching someone in a higher position, with the
    exception of handshakes.
    
    Be especially careful about touching someone in pressured situations.
    At such times, even well-intended gestures can backfire.
    
    					Val

    re .10:
    
    Miss Manners offered a tongue-in-cheek method for dealing with
    unwanted tummy-patting. The mother-to-be simply jerks back suddenly,
    gasping and clutching her stomach, as if the unwelcome advance may
    have startled her into premature labor.
    
    (To be strictly honest, Miss Manners does not *recommend* this method,
    but points out that, if tried, it ought to discourage the tummy-patter
    from molesting any more pregnant women...)
    
    Concerning touching in general, I suppose I'm one of the "distant"
    people. I feel that physical closeness is only appropriate - and
    satisfying - with people I trust and care about, and to get too
    close to someone I don't know or don't particularly care for seems
    to cheapen it. (I was raised mostly in Louisiana and Wyoming, so
    I don't know what that says about geographical differences.)
    
    -b

        I'm not much of a toucher either... it took quite a while
        to get used to the fact that my sister-in-law wanted to hug
        and kiss me whenever we got together (note that since I've
        lived in Mass. and NH during this time, while they've been
        in Ohio, this has never been very often).  I felt very
        uncomfortable until I finally accepted that that was just
        the way she was (although there may have been more to it,
        since she's admitted she was "trying very hard" to make me
        like her, since my brother and I have always been very close).
        
        I'm not at all sure how I'd deal with someone at work behaving
        like that, and I'd rather not find out...
        
        It's another problem like language.  You have to walk a very
        fine line, because some people are as much insulted by your
        keeping a distance as others are by getting too close.  There's
        generally *some* signals when you're treading the edge of
        the line in either direction, and you just have to learn
        to be sensitive to that.  Sometimes I can read the signals,
        sometimes not... I suppose that's how it is with everyone.
        
        	/dave

    I never wanted people to touch me as a child.  It felt awful to
    me.  I HATED being made to kiss relatives and usually managed to
    make everyone feel terrible about it if coerced.  (Little girls
    are supposed to like to kiss and hug people, right?)  I really didn't
    even want my parents to touch me.  I never knew why, I just knew
    that I felt like I was going to die if anyone touched me.  
    
    Later on, through work in therapy, I discovered a few long repressed
    incidents of sexual abuse, and began to be able to deal with touching
    in a rational manner.  If I had a child, though, I would want that
    child to be the one who chose if and when and how she was touched.
    Ellen Bass wrote a very interesting children's book (available at
    New Words Bookstore in Cambridge, Mass.) about a little girl who
    felt uncomfortable because the man at the grocery store always patted
    her head when he saw her.  She liked him but didn't want him to
    touch her.  The mother in the story taught her daughter to say to
    the man in the grocery store, "I like joking with you, but I don't
    want you to touch me".  If I remember the story correctly when the
    little girl actually talked with him, he was so surprised that she
    had to repeat it twice.  He then said, "Oh, OK, I didn't know".
    
    If only that book had been available in the 1950's...
    
    I ended up spending several years in a wholistic/personal growth/new
    age community.  I learned to enjoy touching, and to be able to say
    no when I didn't want it without offending people.  For me that
    is the key! 
    
    At work I always try to err on the conservative side, but there
    are a few people whom it seems all right to touch, and I do.  I
    imagine there are less issues involved when the woman initiates
    the touching than when a man does!
    
    Holly
    

    I am from a very HUGGY,KISSEY, family.  I am very comfortable with
    family and loved ones, and we do a lot of touching.  My exSO had
    a difficult time understanding this.  He was not a toucher and was
    uncomfortable in there company. (note: was uncomfortable). As our
    relationship grew and he was exposed more and more to my family,
    he warmed up. I need a lot of hugs. I demanded a lot of hugs from
    him, and he responded well. Now after several years and several
    miles, he calls me for phone hugs.  We are still good friends, and
    he says the one of the best parts of our relationship was the hugs.
      

    My father is huggy kissey, my mother is not at all.  I am more like
    my father - I love hugs.  My in-laws are also very warm and huggy,
    including my husband.  So whenever he sees my mother, he takes it
    upon himself to give her a big hug and kiss.  At first, she was
    a little uncomfortable but Tom was determined to "convert" her.  I
    think she is more comfortable with it now - like she enjoys getting
    hugs from this 30 year old - it's been fun to watch.  I guess it 
    helps that she's quite fond of him as a son-in-law. 
    
    SHL