Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    What are your doing up at this hour of the night - at least I'm on
    vacation and enjoying my self by catching up on everything!
    I am in sympathy with you - I got dumped on by a younger female 
    collegue for referring for a woman as a lady. I was rather
    surprized to find myself object of a "talking to" about how 
    I should never use that word because it means an older person. 
    (She also thinks people of my age (who went to college in the mid
    to late sixties don't understand about people living together
    before marriage. (Is the generation gap *THAT* small??!)
    
    As I have said before tonight, it is important to listen to people
    and know where they are coming from before "jumping on them" re
    language. If we were working on a team together and in a moment
    of emotion over a job well done "atta girl" or "atta boy" would 
    probalby offend neither of us - but call me a girl in staff meeting
    (or I call you a boy) and ............ let's not think about it.
    I think before flying off the handle, we should consider not only
    the emotional back ground of the  situation, and the social
    background of the person. I have never believed people could be
    converted to my point of view with a brick.
    
                            

    There's an old saying, and forgive me if I get it wrong but the
    basic point is - what's important is not what's true but what's
    perceived to be true.  To me that means that we each have to decide
    if we care how others perceive us or not.  If we don't we can use
    any language we want.  If on the other hand we don't want to be
    perceived as sexist, then we will make an effort to change those
    things in our language that offend others.  
    
    I once worked for a man who was the most sexist person I've ever
    met.  But he knew exactly how to say anything so that it was "correct".
    So, his speech was perfect and yet he treated his female workers
    as bad as anyone when it came to raises, etc.  I personally can
    ignore a few verbal "slips" from time to time, just give me $$$.
    
    Anyway, I do care not to be perceived as sexist so I watch it. 
    Any I understand the comment in .1 about the generation gap - my
    sister is 11 years younger and much more sexist than I am because
    we really have made some progress, but she didn't have to fight
    for it and therefore takes it for granted.
    
    Sally
    

    I agree but there's something that just doesn't sit well with me
    and that's changing language (and will it stop with language?) that
    may offend others...  cain't put a finger on it but I just don't
    feel comfortable with that.  I just have this vision of mass paranoia
    and people dissecting every word before it's uttered so as not to
    offend "someone".  Granted, with communication via net,
    one can't "hear" and so it's easy to misinterpret what is actually
    meant.  I think it's been discovered in other conferences, as well
    as this, that as "conversation" continued, the people 'violently
    agreed'...  But, when one *is* able to hear to interpret the feelings
    expressed, I think we should go with that and not so much the lip
    service.  I know, rathole - you say po-ta-to, I say po-tah-to..
							  :-)
    
    to .0...  I've not been to any manager's training.  I can only speak
    for myself.  Be sincere and honest in your praise or whatever. 
    At all times be considerate and then if you do say the wrong words
    it won't be taken wrong.  But do what is natural for you.
    

    One more point, - the difference between language is viewed in the
    Western world and the Eastern.  In the West we tend to think "a
    rose is a rose".  But according to a book I read on China, they
    think of language as a powerful tool.  If you want to change something,
    one of the ways to do it is to change the way people talk about
    it.  If you can do that, they feel, you are half way along the road
    to change.
    
    The advertising industry knows this very well.  If you tell people
    that one brand of gum is better than the rest, and you tell them
    over and over and over, pretty soon they believe it.
    
    If you don't believe it, just think what would happen if you told
    a person over and over that they were too short (tall, fat, thin,
    ugly, take your pick).  In fact, it's part of the reason for the
    diets people are always on.
    
    Well, we tell woman that they are inferior, fat, and little girls
    all the time.  Guess what?  Some of them believe it and some rebel.
    
    There is power in language!
    

    
    Well!  I think that when we call someone something it is important
    to respect what *they* want to be called.  At first it may seem
    strange to use a new term but after awhile we get used to it and
    it seems normal.  Using the right names can be an important part
    in conditions changing for the better.  This reminds me of my
    grandfather who was a wonderful, kind, unprejudiced person, but
    who in the '50's thought nothing of refering to black people as
    "darkies".  Sounds pretty obsolete doesn't it?  But, 30 years ago
    no white person (or hardly any) thought anything about it.
    
    I noticed that you used a lot of terms for men - guys, fellas -
    but not boy which is really the equivalent of girl.  Would you really
    appreciate it if you heard a woman say, "Isn't Jim Burrows a nice
    boy!"  You'd probably think she was senile if she thought you were
    still a boy.  Likewise, I do not consider myself to be a girl. 
    I am 5'1'' and weight 95 lbs. so I still get comments such as recently
    a middleaged bartender saying, "What can I do for you little girl?"
    But, I'll be 37 in October and I really am a woman.  I won't be
    any taller if I live to be 80!
    
    If you respect women and you believe in equality of the sexes make
    the effort to use the term woman.  Maybe someday it won't occur
    to you to say girl.
    
    Last year I went to a lawyer in Worcester for a divorce consultation.
     Just before I left his office the lawyer, probably in his 50's,
    told me to stop on the way out and see one of the "girls" in the
    front office to make another appointment.  When, I walked into the
    front office I saw two nicely dressed women with permed blue hair
    obviously pushing 60.  These were his "girls".  I decided right
    then and there that I didn't want *him* for a divorce lawyer!
    
    Lorna
    

        Actually, although I more often use the word "guys", there are
        times when I do talk about "one of the boys" or address a group
        as "boys", mostly I use it in the plural. You are right though,
        I use it less often than "girls".
        
        Language is a funny kind of thing. I tend to think of two pairs
        of terms: "guys and gals" and "boys and girls". I use all four
        terms quite a bit, although I tend more towards "guys" and
        "girls" than "boys" and "gals". Also, I will tend to use "guys"
        and "fellows" to include members of both sexes although in the
        singular I use them almost exclusively for males.
        
        Would I appreciate being called "a nice boy"? Probably, yes,
        although you might not believe that. Remember my own self image
        is as I was at about the time I graduated high school. I can't
        think of the last time I refered to myself explicitly as "man",
        or as "Mr. Burrows". About the only term I use for myself that
        implies any status is "engineer". I'm very proud and serious
        about being a professional. The only terms I use for myself that
        have reference to advancing age or maturity are "old fart"
        (please excuse my language), and "curmudgeon", as I find that I
        have become rather a stick-in-the mud and set in my ways on a
        number of topics. 
        
        I'm perfectly willing to change my use of language to suit the
        person refered to. Understand that I have no desire to disparage
        or offend anyone. The thing that bothers me is that none of the
        guys seem to care, so I'll probably continue to call them
        "guys", "boys", "fellows", and other decidedly informal things.
        The gentlmen don't seem to care either, and often appreciate the
        formality. Certainly my language regarding myself is not likely
        to become any more respectful. Only the girls and ladies seem to
        care. 
        
        Not only am I willing to call women "women" rather than girls or
        other informalities, I find that I'm doing it more and more. The
        problem is that the reason I'm doing it is so as to not bruise
        their delicate egos! I find I pussy-foot around women, treating
        them as if they were glass, as if they can't take being treated
        like one of the guys. As time goes on, I'm treating them less
        like normal every-day kinda people and more as people you have
        to be careful with. I'm building a stereotype that says they
        need to be sheltered from the kind of language and informality
        (or formality) that I treat real people with. This bothers me. 
        
        Not only don't I want to offend anybody, but I would like to be
        able to treat people the same regardless of sex. I just don't
        see how the current situation can be won. In all male company
        I'm free to treat people as people. I can be informal with
        friends and acquaintences and formal with strangers and people
        due respect. As soon as there are women in the group, both the
        terms of informality like "girls" and the terms of formality,
        such as "lady" and "Ma'am" are off-limits. All of a sudden I
        have to be careful what I say.
        
        Does the dilemma make sense to you?
        
        JimB.

I just had to jump in and comment on this one.  Re: .0 - as a woman manager, I 
have never been comfortable using "atta boy" ... it just doesn't feel natural.  
I have found that a simple "Good Job!" will do the trick for any gender ... if 
said with enthusiasm, the message gets across very well.

I, personally, do not care to be called a girl (anyone who knows me would 
probably call that the understatement of the century) ... it seems to me that 
when men call women in the workplace 'girls', it creates a power distinction.  
Although I have certainly heard much about the "old boy network", I have 
*never* heard a man/group of men referred to as 'boys' in a work related 
context (i.e. the boys in the shop/that boy in accounting/that engineer is a 
nice boy, etc.)  

Oh, well, I could go on and on ... but it's been said.

Mary Tyrrell

P.S.  Introduction will come later.

    Language is indeed a funny thing.  The terms "fellow-chap-guy" are
    all neutral terms.  They carry no connotations of age, maturity, or
    responsibility.  I think you'd be hard pressed indeed to find a man who
    would be offended at being called a "fellow-chap-guy".  The term "girl"
    is not a neutral term.  It does carry connotations of age, maturity,
    and capability.  Many women are offended by being called girls, and I
    can't blame them.  I dislike it myself. 

    One problem with this whole business is that there is no appropriate
    female equivalent of of the neutral term "guy".  "Gal" doesn't quite
    make it--I believe it is a more colloquial term (South & Southwest)
    than "guys".  
    
    And as for using "guys" to include both men and women; well, there
    are certainly better terms available:  
    
    Not:                              But:
    
    She's just one of the _guys_.     She's just one of the {gang,bunch}.
    
    I have a great group of _guys_    I have a great group of _people_
    working for me. (both M & F).     working for me. (both M & F).
    
    Attaboy!                          Great job!  
    
    "Excuse me {boys & girls}         "Excuse me _people_, but I have
    {ladies & gentlemen}, but          an announcement to make..."
    I have an announcement to make..."
    
    re .6     
    > In all male company I'm free to treat people as people. 
    
    If you are in all female company, you are free to treat people as
    people as well.  Why do the rules change as soon as you have mixed
    company?  Women are everyday kinda people--PEOPLE.  Avoid calling
    me "girl" for the same reason you'd avoid calling your male manager
    "boy."  Both are innapropriate, offensive, and do not treat us with the
    dignity we deserve.  Don't feel as though you're protecting my delicate
    ego.  Feel as though you're using a term appropriate to who and
    what I am.  And if you don't know who I am, just give me the benefit
    of the doubt, like you would anybody else. 
    
    The only dilemna I can see here is that people must change their
    language use in order to help change (as .4 so aptly pointed out can
    happen) the way people are perceived.  That may take a time, but
    it's surely worth the effort.  Is there any situation where offensive
    (in this note, read "sexist") language cannot be avoided?  I think not.  
    
    

    I'm putting on my ring of fire resistance and...
    
    I tend to avoid this type of confict (and get myself into another)
    by using the phrase "Way to go kid", regardless of gender.  To me,
    the term "kid" is used with affection (escpecially at our collective
    ages) and I don't consider it sexist in the least -- *Nor* do I
    intend it to be condescending.
    
    I'm sure there are latent sexist words & phrases still floating
    around in my vocabulary and common speech, but, I assure you, that
    the malice of intentional sexism lurks not behind them.  If I *choose*
    to be sarcastic, there are few who will miss the clues.
    
    					--D

	> I'm treating [women] less like normal every-day kinda people
	> and more as people you have to be careful with.

	    My feeling is that calling guy-aged women "girls" is saying
	that they're something less than normal every-day kinda guys.
	Since there's no word similar to "guys" ("gals" is just "girls"
	in disguise), that leaves "women."
	    It may sound odd, but I'm used to "women."  It doesn't
	strike me as formal; I just think of it as normal every-day
	kinda talking.
			<_Jym_>
	P.S.:  A good rule of thumb is to ask yourself if you would use
	"boy" in the same way you use "girl."  I don't think "attagirl"
	is something to scream about if whoever says it says "attaboy"
	as well.

    I think what is happening here is equivalent to what happened in
    the sixties and seventies with regard to Blacks.  People started
    complaining about language and whites started being very careful
    about what they said so as  not to offend. I doubt many 
    people today are seriously aware of language re Blacks - I doubt
    even the most bigoted would call a Black collegue 'nigra' or 'boy'
    to their face (at least). I suspect that with time we will all 
    internalize the 'new'language re women and except for a small
    minority will no longer feel akward about what word to use.
    Bonnie

        OK, so why are "Ma'am" and "lady" objectionable if "Sir" and
        "gentleman" aren't? Mostly the discussion so far have centered
        on casual language which is less formal than "woman". "Girl" and
        "guy" don't exactly correspond, and there is more variety in
        casual words for guys than gals. Thus there may not be an
        acceptable equivalent to the casual language, but what about the
        formal language?
        
        JimB. 

    re.12
    actually I use Ma'm a lot - a hold over from ten years of going
    to school in the south - sounds a bit odd in New England. 
    I don't have any problem with either ma'm or lady, or even gal -
    girl is the only one that raises my hackels.
    I had better log off for the night -my 16 year old son is
    threatening to un plug me!
                           
    g'nite
    Bonnie

re. 12

I think Ma'am is fine as long as it is used for a married woman (it is after
all, short (not by much) for madam) .... and lady is fine, I just get rubbed
the  wrong way with what I consider to be derogatory terms, stressing youth.
(Ah, we begin to see the signs of someone who is still relatively young! :->)

	    [RE .12]:  Actually, I've never met anybody who objected to
	"Ma'am" (or "Madam") or "Sir" - it's a new one on me.  
	    I could imagine somebody finding "Gentleman" and "Lady"
	insulting, since these terms carry connotations of people play-
	ing "proper" roles (he would throw his coat in the mud, and she
	would walk across the coat daintily).  Some of my black friends
	take great offense to "Lady" because many men in their neighbor-
	hoods use it with a possessive pronoun ("my lady"), carrying
	connotations of possession.
			<_Jym_>

    re .9 -
    Some thoughts on being called 'kid':

    I wouldn't like being called 'kid' unless I either knew
    the person very well or I knew that the person calling me that
    *frequently* called others 'kid'...it would certainly be condescending
    in certain situations...I'd take it better coming from a woman...
    maybe this is because I am a physically small-sized woman...maybe
    just because I'm a woman...
    
    re .12 -
    I have no problem with "m'am".  "Lady" does make me think of a
    white-gloved, high-heeled woman, which I am not.  But I have no real
    objection to it.  I'm too busy fighting the battle over the term "girl".    
    I'm more accepting of older people using "girl" than people my own
    age and it *really* irks me when a man younger than I uses it on
    me!
    
    BTW, I've been trying to refer to men as "men" more than in the
    past.  I use the term "guy" a little less often now.  How do men
    in this conference feel about this?

    	-Ellen

	    I prefer "dudes" myself.

	(Smiley faces as far as the eye can see.)

	    Actually, either "men" or "guys" seems to work.  As was
	said before, "guys" doesn't have the same kind of connotations
	that "girls" does.
	    Using "men" does have an advantage:  the person you're
	speaking to might take to saying "women" instead of "girls".
			<_Jym_>

go away for a week, and there are a million notes to catch up on...

I think that language is very important. I remember back in 1973 or so, the
I was a member of my County Democratic Committee.  We passed a resolution to
use "-person" instead of "-man" (e.g., "Committeperson"). I couldn't see why
it mattered at the time, but I'm a firm believer in that now.

re: .6 ("man" vs "guy")
I've tried to notice how people use guy/man and girl/woman.  I am
amazed that some female friends refer to themselves &/or other women as
"girls". I think that I've found a trend in how the words are used, or
rather, how people go from one set to the other.

People seem to switch from guy/girl to man/woman when they're comfortable
with the fact that *they* and their peers are somewhat "grownup" (I mean
grownup in years -- it's just as well to never actually "grow up"!). I found
that I was comfortable calling females "woman" before calling males "man",
and before referring to myself as a man. Part of it might have had to do
with realizing that "girl" had all of the connotations that have been
expressed in other replies, while "guy" is just a kind of meaningless word.
Part of it is just a resistance to admitting to adulthood, I think. Sound
reasonable?

There really is no good analogue to "guy" for women. "Woman" sounds much
more formal, and "girl" carries too much other baggage. As we've discussed
before, there's no generic third-person pronoun, and one has to choose
between "he" "s/he" "he/she" and "she", and annoy *someone* with any choice.
Similarly, one has to pick "girl", "woman", "gal" or "lady", and try to
annoy as few people as possible.

On the whole, I think that as long as one uses similar terms for males and
females (boy/girl, man/woman, lady/gentleman) it's ok.  Otherwise, the
remark can be misinterpreted.  Labelling bathrooms "Ladies" and "Men"
doesn't really mean anything, but it's wrong nonetheless -- "Lady" implies
more than just gender, something about how the person does (or "should")
act, while "man" simply refers to an adult male.  The bathroom doors don't
care what they're called, but the subtle problem is that we get used to
calling people by non-analogous terms, and perhaps internalize some of the
implicit meanings in those terms.


An earlier note discussed how language is evolving. That's certainly true
for gender-related words. We've only become aware of the problem recently,
and there are no complete solutions yet (see my earlier note on "language
counts" or something like that). Some words don't lend themselves to change.
When referring to the people who run my town, I try to refer to the "Select
Board" or a "selectman/woman" instead of using "board of selectmen" as the
generic. That's a tough one, because it's so ingrained, but "Selectman Anne
Flood" sounds just stupid.

					-- hal

        Actually, I used to always say "girl" simply because I preferred
        the sound of the word over "woman".  I also preferred the
        sound of "guy" or (secondly) "man" over "boy"... though I
        tended to use the latter for consistency.
        
        That perception has been changing, I've noticed.  It's been
        quite a while (well, maybe less than a year) since I've
        seriously referred to women as "girls"... I suppose I just got
        used to "women", since I now think it sounds just fine.  A nice
        side effect is that it allows me to stop using "boy", which I
        always disliked... 
        
        I suppose the only reason for mentioning this is that there are
        *lots* of different reasons for peoples' choice of words, and
        few of them have any real cosmic relevance.  It's not which
        words people use that really matters: it's why and when they use
        them.  Subtle people can say the *nicest* sounding things and be
        *thoroughly* insulting if they want to.   Poorly educated
        or just plain coarse type people can compliment you with
        some of the most horrible language you've ever heard.  It
        really is the thought which counts.  The only catch is in
        separating the thought from the words: sometimes it's not
        easy.
        
        	/dave

Reading through this note has prompted me to think about how we refer to each
other in the UK. There certainly doesn't *seem* to be so much concern about 
it, but that could well be due to that concern not being voiced.

After some thought, here's how I thing it works for me, and a lot of others
over here (I'm  a guy/boy/man or whatever - I really don't mind - intro later)

In all male company in a workmates situation, we either refer to each other by 
name, or use 'chaps' or 'guys' as a light hearted collective, or 'people' if
we are being more serious. When refering to a male colleague in his absence,
we use the terms 'chap' or 'bloke' ( John's a good chap/nice bloke etc.
Don't ask where 'bloke' comes from - I've no idea) and sometime 'guy' 

In a mixed situation things don't change too much; 'guys' is used to refer to
a group of mixed gender quite often, and 'chaps' can be used for male, female
or mixed groups although 'chaps and chapesses' is a common term.

'Ladies and Gentlemen' used to be used a lot more than it is now, but still seem
appropriate in formal situtation eg District meetings. 

In non-work related conversation, males are generally called by their names or
'Mate' ( indicating a co-conspirator in whatever activity is going on?). 
Females are normally called by their names when addressed individually. A 
group of people would probably be refered to in the same way as at work.

I will be interested to see how any other UK people fell about this.


/Dave

	    "God Almighty made women and the Rockefeller gang of thieves
	made the ladies."
					-- Emma Goldman

re: .20
>In non-work related conversation, males are generally called by their names or
>'Mate' ( indicating a co-conspirator in whatever activity is going on?). 
>Females are normally called by their names when addressed individually. 

You wouldn't call a woman "mate"?  I just saw a British movie ("Letter From
Brezhnev", set in Liverpool), where the women called each other "mate".  Is
it only for same-sex references?

					-- hs

Re:  .20  According to Webster, the word bloke comes from Shelta, the Irish 
          Tinkers argot.