Conference turris::womannotes-v1

================================================================================
Note 2.42                  What do women do at DEC?                     42 of 42
BARTOK::MEEHAN                                       21 lines   9-JUL-1986 10:53
                -< changing jobs at DEC -- a career in itself! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

re:  Note 2.41 

Lorraine,

I went through the same experience of looking for a job in a hurry a few
years ago.  You are right;  it is a roller coaster ride.  In looking
back on it, I think the best way to minimize that feeling is to always
keep busy.  Go to the library and read up on jobs that you think you
might be interested in -- have the librarian do a literature search
for you.  If there is nothing in work to keep you busy, go home (there's
always something to do there).

OrIf you feel the need to talk to someone, call me.  It helps to talk about
this kind of stuff.

Good luck.

Margaret Meehan
dtn  225-6515

  Job  hunting  is  never easy, and always seems to underscore the doubts one
  has, rather than the strengths.  What I've  done  before  the  job  hunting
  actually  begins  is  to  do a lot of study about my strong points and weak
  points, and the environment I work best in.  (This also  helps  in  writing
  your resume where you hopefully only emphasize the strong points. :-))

  Next  I  use  this  'self-study'  information  and go talk with co-workers,
  people who I respect who might be in a position that I'd like to strive for
  over  a  period  of years, etc.  Basically take advantage to the experience
  and guidance that is available in the Digital environment.  You might  say,
  well  I  don't  know who to ask.  Don't let this stop you.  I talked with a
  co-worker who put me in touch with two people in a different  organization;
  one  gave me a good understanding of the environment and we discussed how I
  might best contribute, the other actually  became  my  hiring  manager.   I
  contacted  them  by  electronic  mail,  stated (*briefly*) what I wanted to
  discuss, and asked if we could talk for one hour  at  his/her  convenience.
  What  I've  found  is that when you can show that you've done your homework
  and have set goals for the discussion, most people will not  deny  you  the
  time;  you  may  have to wait for a free slot in their calendar, but that's
  ok.

  And don't forget the jobs book and the various on-line  equivalents.   They
  may not always prove fruitful, but can provide access to other parts of the
  company.

  Most importantly, try not to let yourself  get  depressed.   Tell  yourself
  that you've got strengths which the company can benefit from; you just have
  to find the place that can appreciate you and your work.

  Hang in there.  We're rooting for you!!
						-Leslie

    I have been through the job hunt/interview route twice in the last
    three years.  The first time, I was just out of "career change
    training", and had been unemployed for three years.  No income,
    and needed a job quick.  I kept my sanity by playing lots of golf.
    
    This past winter, I again went job hunting -- a transfer for a 
    better career and future.  I thought it would be much easier because
    I had a job that I enjoyed, so I didn't NEED to find another.  My
    credentials were great, my network was large, resume was good, and
    my interviews were relaxed and fun.
    
    But, after each interview, I imagined myself in that 'new job',
    and the one I had became intolerable.  I developed a 'short-timer'
    attitude, and ended up suffering the same stress and emotional ups
    and downs that I had suffered through 3 years ago.
    
    No one seemed to have any good advice -- just hang in there they
    said.  Great.  I had a job, so I couldn't play golf (besides, no
    local courses were open in February).  So, this time around, I
    kept my sanity by taking piano lessons, and rebuilding a player
    piano.
    
    I got my transfer (and a good job), though I haven't completely
    rebuilt the piano yet.  My guess is that the next job hunt will
    be just as emotionally draining as the last two.
    
    The key for me seems to be putting THE JOB HUNT into hibernation,
    and throwing myself into some other all-consuming activities.
                                                                 
    Jo-Ann

        And remember that most transfers within DEC seem to be done
        through contacts, rather than through personnel.  I won't
        say nasty things about personnel (though I could), because
        my wife did that several years ago in SOAPBOX and *still*
        hasn't lived it down... but nevertheless, things usually
        seem to work more quickly and smoothly if you talk to people
        in the group you're interested in, decide on the transfer
        with their management and yours, and let personnel do the
        paperwork (oops, does that count as nasty? :-)).
        
        I've gotten several job requests from VAX notes friends,
        'cause our group is sorta maybe almost on the fringes of
        being ready to maybe look for a couple of extra people of
        unspecified qualifications (in other words, we have money
        for reqs but haven't quite gotten our acts together as to
        exactly who we're gonna spend it on).  Even though there's
        nothing I can do about 'em right now, I pass on the info
        to my manager, and when we know what we want, I won't forget
        a friend (well, I'll *try* not to!).
        
        When I started at DEC, out of college, my goal was to get
        into DEC.  With no contacts, I took the first offer.  When
        I gained experience and some contacts (when friends leave
        your group, they become contacts in *other* groups... or
        even other companies: don't lose them!), I plotted my "rise
        to fame and fortune" and started hunting contacts.  I've
        transferred 3 times, each with a specific goal, and each
        following a contact... in most cases someone who'd moved
        from my previous group.  I moved from PDP-11 to VAX, from
        diagnostics to Spitbrook, and finally to a workstation research
        job which is utterly perfect for me.
        
        The system works pretty well, if you use it right.
        
        Interviews are the worst part.  And yeah, having a cushy
        job to go home to isn't much help.  It's like window shopping
        for a new house or car.  Once you've seen one you like, the
        "old reliable" will never be the same again, no matter how
        "nearly perfect" it was hours before.  You can't gain without
        taking some risk.
        
        My father's in personnel (for Kodak).  He advised me to
        practise.  Interviewing is a skill, and like any other, you
        can't be good at it without practise.  It's just not a skill
        most of us *need* very often, so we don't think about it.
        
        So, when you need to start looking, don't just look for "the
        perfect job" to interview for... try anything which is even
        close; and save the best for last, if there's any chance
        that it'll keep (some won't, and you have to grab fast).
        The practise runs, you don't need to take too seriously.
        Have fun.  Be pleasant.  Don't get tense.  It's *easy*---you're
        only doing it for *practise*, right!?
        
        My first job interview was with Kodak.  I knew the company, felt
        comfortable with it, I'd worked there two summers... I even
        got interviewed by a long time close friend of my father.  And
        best of all, I hadn't the *faintest* interest in working for
        them.  I had a fun time talking to the guy, got some idea of
        what to expect in later "real" interviews, and gained a lot of
        confidence that I could walk into an interview without totally
        tripping all over myself.  I might well have gotten the job with
        DEC anyway... but it sure didn't hurt! 
        
        	/dave

    The stuff about downgrading the req is important, especially since
    you're a "tech"-nik.  I got my current job 3 months ago after
    plastering all the Personnel reps with my resume and a brief cover
    letter.  No, I didn't hear from most of them.  The few I did hear
    from were from jobs that were looking for senior and principle software
    engineers (I'm currently a Software Engineer II).  The one I'm in
    downgraded the req... they LOVE spending less money!!!  I sent my
    letters to every job description that even remotely looked like
    I might want it!
    
    I've been in DEC 6 years and this was my 2nd transfer.  I can remember
    feeling SO depressed and so funked out... 
    
    Don't lose heart.... You'll hit it right.... Remember to use your
    contacts to get tips on open reqs.  If you could write in MACRO
    I could probably get you an interview up here!  
    
    And I have to support what is previously said:  most jobs do not
    come from Personnel.  Mine was the *FIRST* time it happened for
    me!  And no one I spoke with had ever had that happen to them.
    
    And as long as I'm asking, any software engineers out there with
    PDP-11 MACRO experience, A-to-Z experience also a plus?  We have
    some open and signed reqs!!!!
    
    bugsy7ex
    

        I've read that changing jobs is as stressful as getting married,
        getting divorced, moving, having an immediate family member die
        or having a baby. For most of us, these are the major traumatic
        events of our lives. Don't be surprised at the depth of your
        reaction. 
        
        I've found that like most of these major stresses, job changing
        is best done and not worried about.  Don't worry about it a lot
        before you actually start looking. Once you do start, start it
        seriously don't prolong it or do it half-heartedly. And while
        you are doing it, don't worry about it. Know you will find a
        job. Attack it with confidence. Lean on your friends, both
        for leads or recommendations, and for support.
        
        JimB.

    Having gone throught the 'job hunt' cycle several times, I can
    sympathize (empathize ?) with anyone going through it.  One thing
    I found was that I went through several cycles: high enthusiasm/energy,
    depression, indifference , etc.  If the job hunt took a long time,
    I would take short breaks from the effort.  I think that no matter
    how you deal with the experience, job hunting is stressful.  As
    .7 pointed out, don't be surprised at what you feel :-) !
    
    In Digital, seems the best way to find a new job is to let everyone
    possible know that you're looking; "word-of-mouth" works very well.
    I switched jobs about six months ago and when I was hunting, sent
    my resume to anyone remotely associated with the area in which I
    was interested.  Often, a resume gets passed around and suddenly
    you get a call from someone that you never even knew about !  
    
    Persistence, patience and a bit of a postive outlook helped ME to
    survive the Job-Hunt Hassle ! Good luck and hang in there !
    
    Joan G.
    

    	After more than 2 months, the job hunt is finally coming to
    an end.  I have an offer that sounds very good and a final interview
    for another job that also sounds very interesting.
    
    	I wanted to take time to thank everyone that answered my note.
    I read, and reread your notes almost daily.  Everyone of you have
    hit it right on the nose.  - Job hunting is hard - much more than
    I expected it to be.  I also ended up in a real vicious circle.
    I was depressed because I was bored; the more bored I was the more
    depressed I became; the more depressed I was the less I wanted to
    do.  
    
    	I also found out the "WAYS OF DEC".  Being fairly new at DEC
    (only 2 years)I believed I could climb mountains.  I look at this
    transition as a chance to expand, spread my wings.....  I didn't
    think I had to limit my search at my present level.  I looked higher
    believing I could very well take on more responsibilities than I
    had been handling so far.  I wanted to make a jump.  But personnel
    steps in and says "our ceilings are low, you can't jump".....
    Talk about killing drive and incentive in people!!!  I know these
    rules and regulations have been established for good reasons, i.e.
    preventing engineers to take a promotion offered by another department
    and therefore leaving they work unfinished, another reason
    is "budget".  Which again raised some questions in me.  If
    I was an external hire, they would offer me the job at the higher
    level and more money.  Being internal changes all this - only
    a lateral move is approved.  So they downgrade the req........
    
    	Well, I guess I did survive the job hunt, but not without scars,
    and not without hope that I won't have to go through this again
    for a long, long time!
    
    	I got carried away here when all I wanted to do was to thank
    you all for your support. So "THANK YOU ALL VERY MUCH FOR YOUR
    SUPPORT".
    
    Sincerely,
    Lorraine
    

        First, congratulations. Second, hang in there--gaetting the
        promotion in addition to the job should be doable.
        
        If they down-graded the req. without significantly down-grading
        the duties, then it is an indication that they theink you are
        capable of doing a job that normally would warrant the higher
        position. That being the case, if you can come on board and do a
        bang-up job, it may not be terribly hard to get the promotion. 
        
        As soon as you are on the job (or sooner, if you like) get a
        good written description of precisely what they want you to do,
        so that you can be reviewed against it at your next review.
        Also, if you want a promotion, make that clear to your boss, and
        find out what he thinks you'd have to accomplish to get that
        promotion--then do that. 
        
        Good luck. Keep us posted.
        
        JimB.

    I know exactly what Lorraine is going through.  I have a meeting
    on Monday with the Personnel Manager to convince her that I'm in
    the wrong job classification... I'm currently a G48 (Sr. Secretary)
    but am also the System Manager for EUREKA and have been ever since
    I came on board at DEC (save for the first month when I was being
    trained).  I just had an interview last Friday for an Operations
    Analyst job and it seems that they group wants to hire me... BUT...
    (and there always seems to be a big BUT!!) there is a $6000.00 pay
    difference involved.  I've asked them about downgrading the req,
    and various other things that we (them and I) could do to possibly
    make this thing work.  I'm in the waiting stage at this point and
    hopefully something good will come out of my meeting with Personnel
    on Monday.  I have a bit of firepower to bring with me (3 letters
    of recommendation and a couple of Policies), and I hope it helps.
    
    					*** Kristy ***

    Kristy, if they want to hire you then where does the $6K difference
    come in?  Wouldn't they have to pay that if they hired someone else?
    Seems t'me that if the job is worth $nK, then that's what they ought
    to be offering you.
    
    					=maggie

    Maggie, A good point, but I've run up against the "rules is rules"
    mentality several times during my stay at DEC. Management has to
    fight so hard to bend the rules that they'd often rather wait to
    find someone else to fill the job.
    
    Groan.

    Thanks for explaining what I couldn't really put into words (without
    getting thoroughly upset again).
    
    						*** Kristy ***

    I don't want to seem uncharitable, but that certainly sounds like
    a great way to make sure women stay in secretarial classifications.
    
    Is that really "the DEC way" of doing things?  Is it "right"?
    
    					=maggie

    Kristy, when I first interviewed for my current position, it was
    posted several levels hire than the job I held. When my "to be" 
    manager finally extended the offer as a lateral move, I refused
    it. I DID NOT DEAL with personnel. I called him directly and told
    him that I could not at this point in my career seriously consider
    any position that was not a promotional opportunity. I explained
    further that I was cognizant of the level on the req when I interviewed
    and had I known he would offer a lateral I would not have spent
    the time and energy that I did in getting the position. In closing
    I reminded him that since he offered me the position, he obviously
    considered me low risk and qualified even though I was coming from
    a much junior position, and the fact that I was able to successfully
    win over his other candidates should indicate that he would be willing
    to provide me some incentive to take the position. I told him quite
    plainly that I did not feel we were taking equal level of risk in
    this venture and that I would be walking into the position with
    less enthusiasm if I were to accept the offer as is. When he asked
    me to tell him what would make me feel good about the job I said
    level and money. Well...I got the level immediately and the money
    within 6 months. If they want you bad enough Kristy, deal directly
    with the person who decides your paycheck. Personnel won't work
    for you in this type of situation. 

    Kristy - I sure wish you luck.  The norm is a "lateral transfer"
    but I know that a transfer with promotion and pay raise can happen.
    I was interviewing with a group who was willing to do this.  The
    difference in pay was not as high (only about 2K for me) but I was
    told that it did not matter that I had just received a promotion
    (My personnel rep said it locked me in that position for a year!!)
    I would be promoted again to the level they had written the req
    for.  From what I understand about this kind of jump it's really
    a budget problem.  In order to give you this kind of raise they
    have to take the money from someone else in the group.  Now, the
    interesting thing is that if you were an external hire it would
    not be a problem at all.  It has to do with different budgets and
    I find it impossible to understand.  I guess you have to be a manager
    and do budget in order to understand this one.


    	The promotion and money was good but the job had disadvantages
    that I was not willing to accept, therefore I took the down graded
    offer (which offers enormous growth potential).  The hiring manager
    said it was up to me to work my way into this job.  It's great!!
    but still I have to inch my way up.  He believes I can do the higher
    level job and that's why he made the offer but he says his hands are 
    tied as far as bringing me in at the higher level.
    
    	I had the same kind of battle with my present manager.  He said
    he believed I could do a higher level job but had to promote me
    on the kind of work I HAD BEEN doing and not what he thought I COULD
    do.  
    
    	Well I took a chance passing the promotion for what I believe
    is a much better job with much more growth and more visibility.
    I was also told by the hiring manager that there will definitely
    be a promotion next year.  I am by nature very naive and I 
    believe him.  I hope I didn't make a mistake.  It's risky, I know,  
    who knows what will happen in a year?!  But I know I can do the job 
    and I am counting on my hard work and his word to make this work
    for me.
    
    	Keep us posted on what happens.  I would love to see you beat
    the system.  And YES Maggie it is the DEC way of doing things......  
    unfortunately.  I for one don't believe it's right, especially in
    a case of relocation.  I can see personnel's point and agree that
    you can't have everybody hop from job to job just to get promotions
    but there should be exceptions and it seems to me that personnel
    is rather unflexible and terribly conservative and of course 
    nobody questions P E R S O N N E L!!!!!!!!!   

    re  the difference between coming from the out side and transfering
    form another group. As I understand it, If you come from the outside
    a new req is created for you and added to the budget. If you transfer
    from another digital job your cost center transfers your salary
    and your planned raises from their cost center to the new one.
    So for anything over a reasonable raise within a reasonable time
    period, it does mean that they have to take money away from other
    people in your group. (If this does not make sense please ask and
    I"ll try and explain it better.)    
    Bonnie

    It's still not clear......   If the extra $6K is there  to give
    to an external hire why can't they take that same money and give
    it to an internal transfer?
    

    That's precisely what Kristy should be confronting her hiring manager
    with..especially since the hiring manager feels she is truly qualified
    for the job. And there are ways to at least acheive a reasonable
    compromise.
    
    Ann 

    I've been doing just that... we're trying to solve this whole dilemma
    together... it's an uphill battle, but it'll be worth it!
    
    					*** Kristy ***

    Good girl!

	    Watch it with those 4-letter words!!!
			 .-----.
			/  o o  \
			\ \___/ /
			 `-----'
			 <_Jym_>

RE: .22, Small digression please....

<Flame on>

  Please don't *EVER* call a female over the age of 15 'a girl', let alone
  a 'Good Girl'.  You run the risk of making the person's skin crawl!!  Why
  do I keep thinking of the girl in her party dress, white socks and
  patten-leather shoes??

<Flame lower, but...>

  Perhaps some person experience would help.  My mother-in-law (an
  ex-professional!!)  used to call me her 'poor little girl'.  Now mind you
  I have been in the workforce for eight years, am very independent, and
  haven't been a 'little girl' for a long long time.  Unfortunately her
  attempt to endear herself to me failed miserably.  Finally after trying
  to ignore this for (what appeared to be) a very long time, I told her how
  terrible her choice of words was, and how it made me feel.  She doesn't
  use the phrase any longer, thank goodness -- and we're still friends.

<Flame off, hopefully??>

  There are lots of ways to provide encouragement without removing the
  progress that a person has made.  We women work hard enough at being
  accepted as thinking adults.  Let's concentrate on improving this, ok?

  Kristy is operating as all Digital employees are encouraged to; she's
  investigating all options (herself and with her manager) and is making
  use of the 'Open Door Policy'.  Hurrah!!! and more power to you...

					-Leslie

    re .24 (and reference to .22):  no offense taken - I've known Ann
    long enough to know that she wasn't insulting me... ;-)
    
    also re: 24... I should clarify that it's really my possible to
    be manager and I that are working together, not my current manager.
     He's said he's 100% behind me getting a better paying job, and
    one that suits my talents better, but that's all he's done for me...
    words aren't going to get me another job!  But I haven't given up!
    
    				*** Kristy ***

    When I am called a 'girl' Imy usual response is that my daughers
    are girls (they are under 15) but I am not. Having passed the age
    of forty I feel that I have earned the right to be considered a
    woman. I cannot understand women my age and older who *like * to
    be called girls. However, "good girl" is such a commonly used phrase
    in our language that I would not be offended by it if it were offered
    emotionally, in honest praise - expecially by another woman. I think
    to take some one to task for an unfortunate choice of words in 
    a response praising another is unnecessarily cruel. Perhaps when
    'wonderful woman' is equally common coin we will all rejoice. I
    just don't think we are going to  win any major battles picking
    on the converted over minor slips in language.
    

  I tried to warn people that .24 was more emotion than thought by
  warning of flames.  (And yes, I violated my own request for a 24
  hour cooling off period between replies.)  Now that the evening is
  past, let me try again.

  I don't believe woman (or minorities) are making major progess in
  business by winning major battles.  We are improving our existence
  with small steps and a lot of effort.  Put together, we're getting
  somewhere.

  I felt that the `Good Girl' comment was characteristic of comments
  we often use when we know a group of people very well, and drop
  into a group-only lingo.  I'm not saying that's wrong, only that
  when I see myself doing this at work, I ask myself what people
  outside the group might think of the lingo.  If this gives the less
  enlightened people an excuse to say, `well they don't have respect
  for themselves, why should I respect them?'  or `that's how they
  refer to themselves, why can't I use the same term?'  (with a
  different connotation of course), then I try to drop the use of
  such lingo at work.

  I believe these small things count -- and as you can see from my
  emotional reply, they definitely count for me.

  BTW, this conference has been recommended to the SEG (Semiconductor
  Engineering Group) Staff who are entrenched in a `Valuing
  Differences' self-examination of the organization.  Perhaps we'll
  see an increase in woman and minorities in visible positions in SEG
  over the next several years....
					-Leslie

    re 27 (re 24)
    
    I don't feel that "good girl" is disrespectful.  I am 30 years old
    and have worked as hard as anyone (woman or man)...  I'm not offended
    when I'm called a "girl"....  I've had people say "she's a woman"
    (referring to me) and it's gotten me so mad I could scream.  I guess
    what I'm saying is the words don't bother me, it's the *tone* and
    *way* they say the words.
    
    BTW, Kristy, I was in the same situation as you.  I was advised
    by my outgoing manager (woman) that it *could* be a problem and
    to be prepared.  My incoming manager (woman) handled it to where
    I experienced no pain at all.  I'm thankful I was spared.  Hang
    tough, ok?
    

	RE: "girls"

	I agree with Leslie.  When was the last time you heard a group
	of men refer to themselves as "boys" in a work environment?
	What really annoys me is when "the girls" mean "the secretaries"
	in our group.  I think secretaries have enough problems with
	their status without the demeaning conotations that the "girl"
	label has.  I'm puzzled by secretaries who refer to themselves
	as girls.  I guess it shows how pervasive these small, but
	important "nits" can be.

	...Karen

    RE: .29
    
    Not to beat a dead horse, but did you ever hear of an old boy network?
    

    re 29
    
    Having been a "secretary" up until about a month ago, I agree that
    Secretaries have enough to worry about. I still maintain that
    mannerism, tone of voice, and general measures of consideration
    and respect are  more important than lip service.  Not saying you're
    wrong and I'm right,  just noting (pardon the pun :-)) a difference
    of opinion.

    re. .32 One of the problems with notes is that you can't get "tone
    of voice" or any other references when you read a note. This is why
    I objected to the "dumping" on the use of "good girl". There are
    a lot of situations where it would be more apropriate to question
    someone by E-mail rather than take them to task in a public forum.  
    
    Two examples:
    I questioned Jim who made the comment on "two sticks" to my question
    on hair off line because - not knowing him - I wasn't sure what he
    meant by it and got a lovely personal response in reply.
    Dirk Lust and I have been friends for over 20 years and we often
    twit each other off line with remarks that if they were put in the
    conference would seem offensive because people don't know what our
    relationship is (as I am sure other people do.)
    My point here is that if you are offended by someone's remarks,
    bring it up privately first to be sure you clearly understand what
    was intended. (a collolary  of the 24 hour rule??)
    digression
    
    a story about the use of "girl" - feel free to skip ...
    
    About two years ago when I first came to Digital  I worked with
    a man who had the annoying habit of calling every female a girl.
    I finally decided (feeling very clever) to deal with it by asking
    him how to deal with another (fictional) man who called every woman
    a girl - i.e. "how should I get him to stop it?" Unfortunately when
    I asked him another woman jumped in and asked why that bothered
    me - she loved being called a girl. A few months later at a staff
    meeting he referred to our supervisor ( a woman) as a girl and 
    she responded very coolly "what did you just say?" He repeated 
    his remarks and she proceeded to very thoroughly take him apart
    for the ramark - including the possiblity of geting him for sexual
    harassment. (I have to say that I enjoyed every minute of it.)
                                                           
    Being in the process of raising five kids - four adopted of mixed racial
    background there are two expressions I encounter a lot - "which
    kids are your own?" and "colored". I don't feel it is necessary
    to jump on people for using either expression. I try to gentley
    educate- "well, you know they are all "our own" but one is 
    "home grown" or use "black" in my conversation when they say 
    "colored". I honestly believe that most people don't intend 
    to offend and that I will do more good by educating than by jumping
    on someone.
    Bonnie
                                             

    And what do I say when someone wants to give me an "atta boy"???
    (sort of like a gold star in kindergarten)  I appreciate the
    compliment, but I'm not a boy, but I don't want an "atta girl",
    and "atta person" sounds ridiculous!
    
    	Mez

Why not  something simple like "Good job!" (I never did like "atta" anything
...  I think the boy/girl applies for both cases.  

In the south "Boy" was used by whites to refer to black men no matter what
their  age,  in  a  disrespectful  way  ... (I've never lived this far north
before, maybe that's why I don't like those terms).

Re girl  ---  my  brother  jumped  all  over me when I called his wife that!
(Severe case of foot in mouth ... fortunately she wasn't around just then.)

    Thank you Kristy... now I can sit back and watch the other men &
    women discuss at great length, and with much vigor, I might add,
    their interpretations of my message to you.
    
    And now to the remaining audience. If a friend of mine encourages
    me on with an expression like good girl, I don't take offense. I
    am very secure in myself as a contributing female to society and
    in so being, don't become emotionally riled over someone's choice
    of words. The use of the word girl does not augment or diminsh my
    contribution to the human race. I treat with my friends with the
    same sense of nobility and dignity as I treat myself, and my choice
    or words or idioms is not a reference to their maturity, character
    or status in life.
    
    I have been judged before given a right to trial. And this is the
    supportive environment of the female populace. No thank you.
    
    Ann

	    [RE .37]:  Now, now, why not blame the men?  After all, I
	started it all with a remark about your four-letter word.
			<_Jym_>

    
    As a secretary, I would definitely say something if anyone at Digital
    referred to me as a "girl".  I would wonder if that person would
    call me "girl" if I were an engineer, or manager, instead of a
    secretary.  I would be afraid that it was a sign of disrespect because
    I am not a "high-paid professional."
    
    Two years ago while I was working as a secretary in an Engineering
    group at DEC, my then boss, a sr. engineering manager, had asked
    another secretary to reschedule a meeting for him.  She was afraid
    to do it at first because her boss was out and she didn't know if
    she should take the initiative.  Later on she came into his office
    and told him she had rescheduled it.  I heard him say, "Good girl!"
     I was appalled.  He was 34 yrs. old and she was about 45.  I just
    couldn't believe it.  I went over to her desk after and asked her
    if it bothered her.  She looked at me in bewilderment and I had
    to explain to her why I found it offensive.
    
    The connotations of some words, such as girl for a woman or colored
    for a black person (even a small child), just carry too much pain
    for some people.  I think people who insist on using words such
    as this just have to accept the fact that there are some people
    who are going to get very upset.
    
    
    Lorna
    

    I understand about how frustrating job searching can become.  I
    have been trying since September to obtain a position in Software,
    I am presently an operator at DIS. Whenever I talk to personnel,
    they indicate my being an operator means I do not know enough VMS,
    DCL, etc to get out of operations.  I have explained that I used
    to be an operator for a software group and that I know VMS, DCL,
    ALL-IN-1, operations, system management, etc.  But it is like hitting
    a brick wall.  They either say Iam not qualified without event talking
    to  me and finding out what I know, or they say the job I applied
    for a month ago is frozen.  Sometimes I feel like looking outside
    DEC.  I have been with DEC 5 years and would perfer to stay but
    the frustration level is getting very high.
    
    OH well that is the way it goes, I will just keep plugging away
    at personnel and everyone I know till I finally find something.
    
    
    

    Hang in there!  Someone will give you a chance sooner or later,
    even if initially it doesn't look like the 'career of a lifetime'.
    
    A year ago I had a much less technical job, but studied like crazy
    to grow technically by taking programming, and studying every course
    and manual I could find internally.  
    
    I went to an interview for someone who was looking for technical
    people to teach and write courses on a certain product.  I stood on my head
    trying to convince this man that I would leave no stone unturned
    to learn whatever I needed to, but no luck.  I never heard from
    him.
    
    I was finally hired by someone else who needed technical people to
    write courses about the same product in another group.  They decided to
    give me a chance, although they hired me in at a lower level than any
    other professional person in the group.  I ended up being funded to
    develop a technical course on the same product by someone in the first
    person's organization because they didn't have the technical resources
    to do it themselves at the time!  
    
    The course got good reviews.  And management even managed to re-level
    me competitively with my peers...
    
    When I heard the first person's organization was recruiting a while
    back, I even had a moment of thinking "Gee, I wonder if he ever
    regrets not getting me when he had the chance!".  
                                            
    

    Re: .40
    
    Can you bypass personnel?  (Is this suggestion going to get me
    in trouble?)  No offense intended to good personnel people, but
    lots of times personnel folks don't have a clue about proper matching
    up of people and jobs for technical work.  Maybe you can ask around
    and find someone who's hiring and convince them you have the stuff.  
    

    r:40
    
    if you hav skills that are beyond the regular the norm for the
    positions youhave had, try this trick:  write your resume without
    listing any job titles.  just put in a detailed description of what
    you did, presumably using these "extra" skills.  that way, the reader
    cannot bring any biases they have towards the level job you had,
    and instead listen to what you actually did.  at the interview,
    avoid telling them the title as long as possible, without lying,
    of course.  Particually on the phone interview. when you are in
    person,  trust your skills to speak for hemselves.
    
    good luck!!
    mary

    THANKS EVERYONE!
    Everyone has been so supportive since I wrote in this notefile about
    being an operator.  I have seen then called all the people in personnel
    that I had sent my resume.  Talk about frustration, I called one
    guy 15 times finally got him in and not at a  meeting or out for
    the next 3 days.  I explained that we had talked before and I would
    like to set up a face to face meeting with him so I could show,
    explain, etc my knowledge, well he starts saying he will be out
    of town and to call next week, and he will review my resume and
    then let me know if I qualify for the job, I then again stressed
    that I thought it would be beneficial to us if we could meet, but
    no luck.  The other personnel person, said just to come over and
    see him next week when I was back at work. I called from home. I
    tried that and guess what he was out for the week... well that is
    enough complaining,,,I am somehow going to get names of managers
    and contact them myslef and convince them to just interview me so
    I can display my knowledge in different fields...
    
    Again I thank you all for your encouraging words, I even received
    a mail message and alot of support from a one of the noters.
    
    I promise I do not give up easily and I will probably end up driving
    personnel crazy--they will probably find me a job to get the crazy
    woman out of their office.
    
    Mixon
    
    

    re: .43
    
    Good point, Mary.  The person who did my resume a few years back 
    says that the "functional" resume which highlights skills came
    out of Harvar, er, Hahvahd in response to the usual "B" school 
    "chronological res.  She says that it has fallen out of favor 
    lately, and has given rise to a "prioritized" resume which describes
    job accomplishments in prioritized order regardless of chronology.
    
    In any case, the "functional" res. she did for me was very well
    done and got me right past the Personnel "flaks".  If anyone
    is interested, please contact me via VAXmail and I'll give you
    her name & number.
    
    Steve