Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    
    The only thing the statue of liberty inspires me to do is
    to wonder how many more worthwhile ways there would have 
    been to spend all that money, instead of just fixing up
    a statue.
    
    
    Lorna
    

    re .2:
    
    what would you consider "more worthwhile" and would cost ~$150 million?
    
    sm(art-aleck)

    Sometimes we need to "feed our soul" as well as our bodies.
    (as in "..if you have but two loaves, sell one and with the
    dole, buy some roses to feed your soul." - poet I don't
    remember.)
    Yes the statue didn't/doesn't mean the same thing in terms
    of liberty to women as it did/does to men. Many Black
    people also commented that they were not really a part of what 
    Lady Liberty stands for either.
    But does that mean that we shouldn't invest in symbols that can
    mean something to all of us in a more equitable society? We need
    things than transcend the practical and the mundane to give us 
    all something to strive for. I get very frustrated with the attitude
    that until there is perfect justice and equality for all (black,white,
    oriental, women, the poor, etc.) that we shouldn't spend money on the
    "impractical" whether it be restoring a famous statue or exploring
    outer space (or anything inbetween). We need to be outward as
    well as inward looking and it should be possible to find ways
    to do both. If we waited until all the ills of the world were cured
    would we ever to anything that transcends simple survival and
    creature comforts?
    re. the money. I believe that most or all of the money used to
    repair Liberty came from private donations, much of that raised
    by school children, and so can't be considered to have taken money
    from any "more worthy" cause.
    Bonnie

From .4

>    Yes the statue didn't/doesn't mean the same thing in terms
>    of liberty to women as it did/does to men. 

My mother and all of my grandparents passed by the Statue of Liberty
when they emigrated to America.  I think they would tell you that
their lives have been much better here then in the old country.
The results have been good for their offspring, too.  All of the
female descendents (cousins) are professionals, one a tenured
professor at a major university.

Perhaps they would have had the same opportunities had the family
stayed in Europe, but somehow I don't think so.

Martin.

    re .5
    Of course you are quite right - I phrased that badly. I was 
    addressing the issue of people who feel that because there are 
    ineqaulities in our society (as in the poem and as .2 seemed to
    imply) Liberty can't mean as much to women or Blacks as it does 
    to white men. I was trying to make a case that in spite of that we should 
    still honor her and feel she is important. I didn't mean to imply 
    that she wasn't profoundly important to the immigrants of all
    sexes who pased her - or indeed to any other group. Thank you
    for adding what I left out.

    
    Re .3, for starters how about a huge diamond ring, mansion
    loaded with antiques situated on the ocean, and a mercedes
    for me!  Only joking - !!!  Don't get upset.
    
    I think it would be nice if that much money had been donated
    for things like - oh - free food and shelter for street people,
    cheap food and shelter for elderly women who, as the most
    poverty stricken group in the country, often have trouble
    making ends meet with their social security checks.  (Nice
    way for America to thank the people who raised them.)  Some
    of the money could have gone to aides research, or how about
    putting some of that money towards educating the public on
    why abortion should stay legal, or maybe research into making
    nuclear power plants safer, or how about grants for women
    artists and authors.
    
    I, too, am a believer in food for the soul but statues just don't
    make it for me.  Antique jewelry, poetry, music, flowers all 
    feed my soul, and have sometimes caused me to get behind on
    more practical bills because my soul was so hungry.  I'd like
    to see all Americans be able to feed their souls.
    
    Maybe if my ancestors did actually pass through Ellis Island
    I could get weepy and notalgic thinking about it - especially
    if we had now gone on to become a family of lawyers, doctors
    and what not.  But, my mothers ancesters were here long before
    the statue was and my father didn't pass by it on his way
    down from Nova Scotia for his first job in the states.
    
    Another thing is that even though a lot of the descendents
    of those immigrants are successful today, the original
    ancestors usually went through hell working for starvation
    wages in sweatshops.  Some of them probably wished they were
    back in the old country before they were done.  The people
    who improved those working conditions were considered 
    radicals in their day.
    
    I know America is one of the best places to live and I'm glad
    to be here, but I just think that there are still a few wrongs
    that need to be righted before we start congratulating ourselves
    on how wonderful we are.  Jackson Browne's recent album, "Lives
    In The Balance" says it better than I can.  
    
    
    Lorna
    

    re .7:
    
    I hope I'm not starting a debate but here goes:
    
    This is a summary of your wish list:
    
    o	free food and shelter for street people
    o	cheap food and shelter for elderly women 
    o	AID's research
    o	educating the public on why abortion should stay legal 
    o	research into making nuclear power plants safer
    o	grants for women artists and authors
    
    And there are of course many more that would have been nice.
    Which one do you give the money to? Do you divide it between all
    of them? If you divide it, there probably won't be enough to make
    a dent in any of them.
    
    The statue is supposed to do more than feed the soul, and pat us
    on the back and tell us what a great country this is. It should
    inspire us and remind us of what LIBERTY is. That there are still
    injustices to be righted. A tangible reminder of what this country
    *should be* and *can* be, not of what it is. Its presence there
    is a question, not an answer.
    
    I think that this note is an immediate example of what I'd hope
    the statue does to everyone who looks at it. Question whether freedom
    and liberty truly live in this country. For that reason alone, I
    think the money was well spent, to maintain that symbol for another
    century.
    
    okay, let me come down off the podium...
    
    There are alot of places the government should spend money, the
    above list is almost an exact copy of the ones suggested that the
    Apollo program be spent on (forgive my grammer). Money alone does
    not buy liberty, or right any wrongs. If elderly women on SS cannot
    by bread and live in slum-like conditions, then the problem is in
    the SS system, using the money from the Liberty fund is not going
    to solve that problem. If women artists are starving, there is an
    Arts Council that should be addressing that. Etc, etc. The point
    is that all the above should be addressed by the government and
    where our tax dollars are allocated. Do you realize that the defense
    budget this year is $500 BILLION? Think of how you could spend that!
    The liberty fund was a one-shot deal, paid for by private
    contributions. All the items on your wish list are chronic problems
    that need to be addressed continuously. The best way is through
    taxes. What really needs addressing is the fiscal policies and
    priorities of the administration and the congress.
    
    let me get down off the second podium...
    
    I apologize for the flame, I really didn't intend to when I started.
    Well in order to keep from flaming any more, I'll just sign off.
    
    sm
    
    (-@^@-)
    #  '  #
     # = #
      ### 

    
    Re .8 I can think of a lot of ways that I think government spending
    should be changed and I can think of a lot of changes I'd like
    to make to taxes, and no doubt there are people who can give me
    a big list of why these changes couldn't be made.  For starters
    I'd like to see all church related "things" be taxed.  I view
    organized religion as a bunch of clubs that people choose to 
    belong to.  I can see no reason why they should be exempt.
    I'd like to see all the tax loop-holes that the super rich use
    taken away.  I bet I paid more taxes last year than Lee Iaccocca
    (or whatever his name is)!  I think the big corporations should
    have to pay their share.  Then, I think more tax money should
    be put into social reforms and less into defense spending.
    I didn't vote for Reagan and I never will.  At least I have a
    wish list, even if it's an impossible one.  
    
    I guess I just don't relate to the statue of liberty, personally.
    Hey, if other people want to spend their money that way - fine.
    Live and let live is my motto.  But, the statue just doesn't
    appeal to me as a symbol of freedom.  It says "give me your tired"
    I think it takes a lot of energy to be a capitalist.  Also, to
    get anywhere in American you have to do a lot more than "yearn"
    for it.  You have to bust your you know what!
    
    Lorna
    

    "For starters I'd like to see all church related "things" be taxed.
    I view organized religion as a bunch of clubs..."
    
    Not so.
    
    I grant you your right to not believe, please grant those of us who
    do the right to do so. Yes, some people do go to church for
    reasons similar to joining a club. That does not make churches
    the same as clubs. I believe that the majority of those who
    choose to go to a church go because they believe the message
    that is preached there.
    
    As far as taxing churches is concerned. Most churches are not
    very well off financially. They depend on what their parishoners
    can give them and often have trouble meeting their monthly budgets.
    Taxing would cause them to go under. This would not only deny
    people the spiritual consolation their churches offer but would
    end the works of charity churches perform. Most churches as part
    of their budget contribute to a denominational fund for charity
    in addition to what ever local charity they provide. 
    
    I admit I have a real problem with some of the glossy "tv"
    churches which seem to put the things of the world well above
    the things of the spirit.
    
    HOWEVER. our constitution guarantees that we shall make no law
    regarding the establishment of religion. This has generally
    been interpereted to mean no taxes. To change that status would
    mean a constitutional amendment. We should be VERY CAREFUL about
    trying to ammend the constitution to fit our own pejudices or we
    may find that others have ammended it to fit theirs in ways we do
    not like.
    
    One of the most important things about this country is its pluralism.
    We have an unusual degree of freedom to practice what we believe
    and I for one would not favor the possible consequences of tampering
    with it.
                                                       
    Now if you want my candidate for a place to cut to free up more
    money for social programs it would be the defense budget. Just by
    eliminating waste we could have the same level of national defense
    and save a tremendous amount of money. (Whether we need the present
    level of defense is a whole another topic!)
    
    

Re: the previous note
    
        The largest money-making operation in the state of Utah is the 
    Mormon Church.  They own a huge high-rise office building in
    Salt Lake City, probably the largest building in the whole state.
    They own and profit from businesses (though I can't recall which
    ones they own).
    
    And you think that they should not be taxed?

    Please, please, please...
    
    Let's not head off on the tangent of religion and taxation! 
    We could all flame about it for weeks, but it wouldn't have 
    anything to do with women's issues.
    
    I have my own strong opinions, but I'm painfully restraining
    myself.  Won't you all please join me?
    
    	-Neil

    Yes, Neil, I will join you.  But after pointing out a fact
    or two.
    
    Even "clubs" can be tax-exempt, clubs like Al-Anon and the
    League of Women Voters.  They use the same IRS classification,
    501(c)3 as churches.  Therefore, even if churches qua churches
    were no longer exempt, they could generally re-qualify as
    charitable (or educational or cultural or...) organizations.
    
    Also, even tax-exempt organizations must pay taxes on
    "unrelated business income".  If you find a church that is not
    doing this, you have my permission (:-) to tell the IRS to
    nail them to the wall.

    (See what you can learn when you belong to a non-religious,
    but non-profit corporation that buys a building with two
    commercial tenants?)
    
    						Ann B.

    Unfortunately, the Supreme Court has never decided what "unrelated"
    means as it applies to churches.  Therefore, the Mormon church can
    (an does) own half of Utah, and has absolutely *NO* tax liability.
    
    Robert Schuyler and Immoral Minority Guru Jerry Falwell can (and
    do) own very profitable TV outlets, and have absolutely *NO* tax
    liability either. 
    
    I have no problem with churches, but it does gall me when they get
    rich off of their constituency, and use it a personal wealth.
    
    Sorry *FLAME OFF*
    
    Dirk

    The poem that started off this discussion ended with the thought
    that if the spirit of Liberty is still abroad in the land "it is
    your spirit my rebelious daugters." We never have really
    discussed the meaning of the poem at all. Rather we have goten
    off on the tangent of how the money might have been better spent
    than on the statue and then to txcing of churches. While these
    are certainly topcs of relevance to women I would be interested
    in hearing at least a few responses to the thoughts expressed in
    the original poem.    
    Bonnie

    
    Re .12, Neil, who gets to decide what "women's issues" are?
    
    Maybe the ladies should step into the parlour to discuss our
    favorite shampoo while the gents talk taxes and religion over
    their cigars!
    
    Regarding the poem, Bonnie, it seems pretty obvious to me that
    suffragists felt that the statue of liberty only represented
    freedom for men - probably only white men at that time (and for
    a long time after).
    
    
    Lorna
    

    re .16
    Yes, that's the obvious point but I think the poem has a lot more
    to say than that.
    Bonnie
                                 

    
    Re .17, what else do you think it has to say?
    
    Lorna
    

    re .18
    Actually I was trying to throw it open to the "class" for discussion
    as it were....if there are no takers I'll put my .02 in.

    I think, in addition, the poem nicely points out something about
    the power of idols to distract people. I'm told that on the weekend
    of the 4th, the ACLU ran an ad in the New York Times saying "You've
    paid to refurbish the Statue.  What about a few cents towards what
    the Statue stands for?"
    
    Or -- to paraphrase an old Chinese saying -- when people praise
    justice, great outrages are the order of the day, and when liberty
    is proclaimed the people have already been enslaved.
    
    Besides that, of course, the Statue in this poem points out
    what the devoted member of any religion or political system
    knows:  a Spirit cannot act without the hands, the hearts and
    brains of living people.  Power does not exist apart; it is
    created and destroyed by human action, or inaction.  The women
    who won for us the right to vote put it all on the line, and
    by this sacrifice *became* the Spirit of Liberty.
    
    Pat Hardy
    
 

    What i saw in it was an appeal to the "rebelious daughters" to strive
    to assure thatour nation would really pactice what the statue  stood
    for in theory. Any others?