Conference turris::womannotes-v1

	    This file will be what its participants make it.  I, for
	one, will not be promoting sexism here (or anywhere else).
			<_Jym_>

This base note makes me unaccountably sad. . .

The best marriages are founded on the connection of two self aware
individual partners. This state can come about only when each of us as
individuals draw apart and learn who we are, as individuals.  The risk, of
course, is staying separated, self centered, but before there can be union
there must be distinction.  

I believe the same thing applies to our society.  We cannot be equal until
we learn to value our various participants (broken down by gender, race,
religion, etc.) equally.  That will not occur until we peel off the white
male patina that covers (and stratifies) every member of our society.  

This notes file is an attempt to look beneath that cover, and to learn to 
understand and value what we see.

Thank you, Maggie and all the others (Yeah, even you Dave :-) ) for this
community that makes me believe there are people striving for equality not
superiority.   We all need some partnerS in this lonely crazy world.

    I believe that one of the goals for this file was to give women
    a forum to talk about issues that are important to them.  We need
    to communicate with each other in order to learn that the personal
    is political. Tha means that it is likely that if we are experiencing
    something--anything from self-doubt to precieved discrimination--
    others are experiencing it too, and there is strength and power
    in sharing it with each other.
    
    Let's face it:  women experience sexism daily...we live in a sexist
    society (it is also racist, agist, fatist and lots of other "ists").
    
    The men who are participating in this notesfile need to remember
    that they are invited guests...this file is primarily for women.
    If that seems selfish or "sexist", perhaps it is...but women need
    to learn to take space and make safe space for themselves and each 
    other. There is nothing wrong with this need...it is healthy.  When
    we emerge from this safe space, we come out stronger and more self
    confident...more capable of coping, dealing and interacting.
    
    To the men in this group:  please respect us and our stated need
    for this safe space--we need it to discuss these issues among ourselves.
    
    In sisterhood 
    
    ****andrea****

        .0: The only way a situation can be made worse by people
        discussing it honestly is if nobody listens to anyone else.
        
        The weakness of notes is the spontanaity of responses...
        especially in a conference like this where the topic is personal
        and important to people reading it. It's easy to jump on
        something you see without fully digesting it first (I think
        around half of the flames against me in this conference are
        actually agreeing with my main point, but just misinterpreting
        or over-emphasizing a small point). 
        
        On the other hand, that can also be an advantage, *especially*
        for a controversial subject: people tend to be more honest than
        in face-to-face conversation.  It can cause bad feelings,
        sure... but only if you don't realize what's going on. 
        
        I haven't seen any indication yet that enemies are being
        made here.  Sparring partners, maybe, but that can be healthy
        if it's not taken to extremes.
        
        	/dave 

RE: < Note 17.2 by COGNAC::GLICK "Fetching Down the Moon" >
>                     -< Self aware does NOT equal sexist >-

>I believe the same thing applies to our society.  We cannot be equal until
>we learn to value our various participants (broken down by gender, race,
>religion, etc.) equally.  That will not occur until we peel off the white
>male patina that covers (and stratifies) every member of our society.  

>This notes file is an attempt to look beneath that cover, and to learn to 
>understand and value what we see.

	In this case, then this file should be called
	HUMANS.

	Being a firm believer that woman are mistreated
	in many ways and deserve much more respect than
	they receive at this time, I do not think I have
	met many women who actually are trying to treat MEN
	as an equal either.  I have met, recently, many "men
	hating" women who do not hesitate classifying men
	with comments as general, and degrading, as "Men
	are ALL animals!" and will then jump all over a man
	for saying something that is regarded as Sexist
	but might be just as stereotypifying as the "Men
	are.......".  This type of hypocracy is not going
	to help at all.  Maybe I will just start another
	topic about it.

	Again, those of you who do know me, are aware that
	I am not against what 1.0 states, but I just don't
	think seperating into subgroups is the solution.
	Attitudes like "The men in this file are just
	visitors" will only discourage men from entering
	notes.  If you want men to enter notes, then why not
	state that they are free to do so without penalty.
	(Or is this file sexist against men ?)  This file is
	a fantastic medium and perhaps a very powerful way
	to voice your concerns, but if you are striving to
	get equal respect, you must allow freedom of thought.

	If this is what you want to feel closer to each other,
	than it is serving a valuable purpose.  

	

    PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Read my earlier reply in this topic!!!!!
    This is a forum for WOMEN to discuss their issues.  If you want
    a notesfile called "Humans" then start one!  Women need this space
    to talk among themselves about important issues.  This space and
    this need must be respected.
    
    ****andrea****
    

> < Note 17.7 by PNEUMA::MASON >

    PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Read 1.1

	    [RE .7]:  An open conference is not a good place for
	"womanspace," unless all the new totalitarian features of
	VAXnotes were to be put into use:  restricting this to a
	"members-only" conference, deleting notes left and right,
	setting notes hidden, etc.  I don't think that's what the
	moderator has in mind.
	    I was very unpleased to see that one of the first notes
	entered in this conference was the childish woman-trivializing
	"Davina" stuff entered in Note #2.  I was, however, very
	pleased with the moderator's response:  moving the notes to
	a more appropriate place (Topic #4) and not censoring them.
			<_Jym_>
	P.S.:  A conference on human relationships has been started,
	it's at NSSG::HUMAN_RELATIONS (the SELECT or KP7 key will
	put it in your notebook).  This seems to be a SEXCETERA
	without the emphasis on sex, but with many more restrictions.

    Our ultimate goal should be, of course, that one day there will
    be no need for a special conference in which "women's" issues are
    discussed. In fact, I would hope that one day people would be confused
    and amazed at the suggestion. However, we have to realize that the
    world is not today that which we would have it be. Today there is
    still a place for such discussions... perhaps tommorrow will be
    different... Demanding that this forum be closed or renamed "Humans"
    is simply not productive. Ignoring the fact that the world of women
    today is drastically different then that of men is simply one way
    of continuing the problem. 
    
    In many ways this is alot like the discussion of "superwomen" in
    one of the other notes. Some people (mainly men) have come to believe
    that the battle for women's rights has been won and thus women should
    suddenly be doing everything men do as well as what women have always
    done. It doesn't work that way... We may have made great strides
    in the last few years but there is still far to go. If nothing else,
    we all need a place to talk about and hear about what this new world 
    is all about.
    
    		bob wyman
    

Re .9    Well, Jym, you're right that an open notes file ain't the best
place for womenspace.  This note is a good demonstration.  We spent 10
notes/replies not talking directly about women (or letting the women talk
about themselves) but defending women's right to distinction (equal value
if you will).  

Re .0    Seems we're right back at a man's question about equality for
women, do they deserve it.  I got news guys, it's not something we can just
give them or, judging from their response, withhold.  If women are to
progress beyond simple defense, into self awareness and growth, they need a
nurturing space (not necessarily all female, but contributing men have to be
damn sure their contributions don't block more growth than they
stimulate!).   Men need those spaces too, but this isn't one of them.
    If we men can't be civil, let women rage, laugh, cry, explore, yes even 
be extremist (be human beings) about a topic that deeply concerns them; if
we men can't participate without quashing that freedom then I for one vote
that men be made read-only in this conference.  We men are not women
(Davina?) and as such are always only going to be "visitors" when it comes
to "topics that are of interest to women" (Women's reality). We men may be
interested in the same things but for different reasons, and this file is
not for our reasons but for women's.  It behooves us to act accordingly.
I'm not interested in following a Men's-comments-on-women notes file.  If
you are, start your own. 


Lisa and Byron

        Lisa and Byron, while I concur with your ideas, there is a minor
        technical problem in implementing your concept "that men be made
        read-only in this conference".  The current version of NOTES has
        no way to tell whether the fingers on the keyboard are attached to
        a male or female body.  Short of restricting the conference to
        "members-only" (a huge pain for the moderator) and only allowing
        women as members (and then copying it to a read-only conference
        for the rest of the world to read), there is no way to implement a
        "read-only" conference that some people can write.  Further, I'm
        not sure that Maggie would want to sponsor such a conference. (But
        she can speak for herself -- I would not presume to speak for
        her.) 
        
        Suggestion:  If someone (male or female) finds a note that someone
        else has written to be offensive (for whatever reason), send that
        person a POLITE mail message stating your reasons for being upset.
        Ask the person to clarify what he or she has written.  Read the
        response.  Try to deal with the person as your fellow human being,
        worthy of respect, who you have simply misunderstood, rather than
        as the enemy.  It can make a world of difference. 
        
        Tom

                <In support of 17.3>
    
    To all, I guess if it was a perfect world there would be no need
    for this file. If men and women were truely equal, there would be
    no need for women to feel the need of a separate space, a safe
    space to be themselves. We all know that the world is not perfect.
    Sadly, women cannot even have a Notes place without creating a 
    controversy. I do not have enough time to educate the world or men
    about the reality of being a woman today. I don't want to argue,
    or hear angry voices. I guess what I want is my own space, where
    other womens voices can reach me. A place where women can establish
    there own unique dialogue with each other. Perhaps, even this is
    asking for to much...I don't object to men's voices, G*d knows I
    hear them all the time. I just was hoping for a space that could
    give women a chance to be themselves, without being on the defensive.
    
    Perhaps, some day this can happen. I realize there are ways of
    restricting access to a Notes conference I afraid that  that is
    not the answer either. With more questions than solutions...
    
    In sisterhood
    
    Meg
     
    
    

        But what's the distinction?  Do you expect that in an all-female
        conference, there would be no discussion?  Is that what you're
        looking for?  Everyone would agree, pat you on the back and
        say "you poor, poor, disadvantaged person"?  Would that sort
        of conference really be interesting to anyone?  Or are you
        just not *interested* in anything interesting?  (the old
        Chinese curse, "may you live in interesting times" comes
        to mind).  I sure wouldn't want to read a conference about
        *anything* which prohibited discussion, or even restricted
        it to people who agree completely.  It'd get dreadfully boring
        very quickly.  I imagine it would die out very quickly, too.
        
        If there is going to be discussion, if people are to be allowed
        to hold opinions, and to discuss the issues which are relevant
        to women, how does it help any to have only women?  All women
        *don't* agree on every topic... even those related to women.
        Neither do men.  I agree with many of the women in this
        conference, and disagree with many of the men. What conceivable
        purpose or advantage is there to holding a discussion of even a
        subject such as "women" with only women present? 
        
        What if everything in this conference had been written by
        women?  Would that make any difference to you?  If only the
        identities, and not the text, were changed.  If you would
        still object, then obviously it's the existance of discussion,
        not the identity of the discussers, which you object to...
        and you're being unrealistic.  If that change would make
        it "OK", then maybe you need to reconsider your objections.
        
        If you mean something different, then please explain.
        
        	/dave                                   

        On a perhaps lighter note..     
        
        What would you do about "Davina", clearly a man (based on the
        attitudes) claiming to be in a woman's body (admittedly due to
        claimed surgical intervention). 
        
        Or what would you do about someone, clearly physically male, who
        claimed to be, emotionally, a woman? 
        
        Alas, it's a complicated world out there, and you won't find a
        whole lot of safe havens that don't completely isolate you from
        it. 
        
        Anyway, the conference moderator has suggested that input from men
        is welcome, within reason.  If you want a "FOR_WOMEN_ONLY"
        conference, you are welcome to start one, and if in fact most
        women agree with the need for it, it will be used in preference to
        this one.  All you need to do is be the moderator and state in the
        introduction that any contributions from men (although just how
        you determine this is left as an exercise) will be deleted without
        warning or notice.  Then delete away!  (Of course, this wouldn't
        be much like the real world, but what the hey!) 
        
        Tom

  Its seems to me this issue is fairly simple, women in DEC feel
  a need for a notes file specifically for womens issues. If the
  need is felt and it does good to air these issues, where's the
  harm? Women are treated differantly by society and its only women
  in the long run who will do anything about it, so please don't
  take it away from them. If the issues get sexist then I'm sure
  someone will spot it and point it out, remember it is sometimes
  neccessary to go to opposite extremes in order to get a valid
  point home.
  
  Dave.
  
  P.S. Re:17.9 Yes, I maybe childish but women trivialising never!

    Well, I sure hope the rest of the notes are not like this one!
    
    I think the original reason is sound and necessary.  I appreciate
    the invitation to participate, but I'm here to learn.  Therefore,
    I will be asking questions when necessary, but I am particularly
    interested in women's issues as THEY see them, and their responses
    to those issues.  
    
    If the intent of this conference is troublesome to someone, why
    do they attempt to change it?  Why not start another that better
    suits their needs/interests?  Afterall, I believe that was what
    motivated the originator of this potentially informative conf.
    
    Lee
    

Restricting access to this -- or any -- notesfile on the basis of sex
(or race, religion, marital status, etc.) isn't exactly the Dec way of
doing things.

Martin.

    Yay, Martin!!  I was just about to add my 2 cents about needing
    a space to be able to flame and cry, and still wanting men to be
    able to access that space because they flame and cry as well.
    
    How will the men ever learn if they're not allowed to deal with
    us as we want to be dealt with...
    
    This is not a WOMEN-ONLY conference and should not be.... and it's
    not a HUMAN conference because we really would rather have an open
    forum in which to discuss issues close to our hearts as women. 
    If someone objects to that, then don't seek to change our conference...
    please do start one of your own....
    
    My heart soared when my girlfriend told me about this!!!!!!  And
    I, in turn, passed the info along to 4 others.... including my
    husband....
    
    This is the first bright side of DEC I've seen in a few weeks...
    and I'm feeling kinda down in the dumps right now....  so, I need
    this!!!
    
    A new faithful follower and a feminist since the day I was born
    into a family of 5 brothers.
    
    Bugsy
    
    Note to Martin:  I used to be a Dahlberg!!!!!