Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    I think I know what you mean by networking, but would you
    define/describe what it is? And would you explain "get confused
    by groups"? I just want to be sure I understand what you mean. 
    
    Thanks
    
    Vicky

    I think there are two kinds of networking which women use: informal
    and formal.  The formal types are associations (like the Society
    for Women Engineers, etc), while the informal networks are classmates,
    friends, people you meet at parties, etc.
    
    Men have really been taught to network, and are not afraid to "use"
    people.  If there is information they need, or a job they are
    interested in, they are likely to call around, talk to their friends,
    and get some help to get what they want.  For some strange reason,
    women often think that they have to do it all on their own.
    
    I am a very strong believer in networking.  Whenever I meet someone
    who does something interesting, I always ask them more about it,
    and I file it away.  Then, if a friend says she/he wants to learn
    more about a specific field, I can "oh, I met this person who does
    that, why don't you give them a call?"  This kind of networking
    for information, and the related kind which leads to employment,
    real estate purchases, and even learning about hobbies is invaluable.
    
    Like the previous person said, I'd like to hear more about what
    you consider networking, and why groups "confuse" you.
    
    By the way, in some ways I think this notesfile is a form of networking
    (if you'll pardon the pun...since it is on the network)...but this
    is an association of people who are like minded, and are interested
    in exchanging information and ideas.  See that--you're networking, and
    didn't even know it! :^}
    
    ****andrea****

    Networking for career improvement has become the 'in' thing to do
    these days.  I guess I feel it has always been there for people to
    investigate/use, but now a name is applied to the practice.  I'm
    not really comfortable with this label, so maybe if I share an approach
    I have, we'll get some more discussion on this.

    I believe that all people, given the right environment, want to
    do the 'right' thing for the company they work for and for their
    own careers.  So the trick is, how to cultivate, create, or encourage
    that environment so that both the company and the individual win.  One
    approach I use is to be sure that I tell people when I appreciate some-
    thing they have done (which may not have been done to directly benefit
    me).  This 'pat_on_the_back' is too often forgotten; people always
    seem to get the 'swift_kick_in_the_xxx' instead.  By providing both
    comments, people see the later as constructive critism and have
    the courage to risk to exploit their potential on future activities.

    Also by talking to people to provide this feedback, I find out more
    about what they do, and they learn more about me.  Future
    questions/issues/advice are always easier to work when a rapport has
    already been established.

    One last rambling comment.  Besides networking, what about mentoring?
    Perhaps this is even more important than networking....
    Do you have a mentor, or are you a mentor to someone else?  How
    do you define a mentor?

    and one last thing.  If the last note looks like a manager talking,
    its NOT.  I are an engineer and plan to stay that way, thank you.
    While I have strong feelings about how people ought to be treated,
    I still get too much thrill out of engineering to consider management.
    				-Leslie

    .3  In my opinion, mentoring is a process of both learning and teaching
    (for both the mentor and the mentoree).  Mentoring is when someone
    with more experience makes either an informal or formal comittment
    to serve as teacher, friend, guardian, confidante, and professional
    role model for someone.  In return, the mentoree agrees, again either
    informally or formally, to learn, be receptive, be a friend, and
    to help the mentor in any number of professional areas.  In addition,
    the mentoree agrees to mentor someone else at a later date.
    
    I have experienced mentoring twice.  At my last job, my boss spent
    a lot of time advising me regarding my future.  Sometimes though,
    mentors, while having good intentions, do not always know what
    they are doing.                   
    
    My second experience with mentoring was very short lived as my manager
    was promoted and I only got to work with her for three weeks.  In
    any case, she was the best manager I ever had the privilege to work
    with.  She was very up front about wanting to mentor me and was
    equally realistic about not really being able to do much in the
    short time that we worked together.  I did, however, have a chance
    to set up some guidelines to work by and I gained quite a lot of
    solid information about my own working styles and ways that I could
    make my skills and talents really work for me.
    
    Mel
    
    
    
    
    
    

    re .6:
    
    Yea! That's what I've noticed.  The mentors I've had the priviledge
    of knowing have not filled that role *officially*.  Its been an
    unwritten/unspoken agreement that both mentor and mentoree had
    something to gain by the interaction.
    
    And passing it on now to people I know has been a real joy!! Seeing
    other people excell because they tried something they didn't know
    they were capable of doing, is nothing short of wonderful!!
    
    So if you don't think you've had the chance to enjoy either side
    of the mentor/mentoree setup, look around a bit more.  A mentor
    does not typically want to be too available (and probably doesn't
    have the time).  The next time someone provides constructive criticism,
    ask yourself, is it a good idea?  Has this person made a comment
    because s/he values my career and contributions?  Could be, your
    mentor has been there all along....

    Leslie--
    	I think you are right on!  Mentoring may be one of those
    magical, fragile things that if you do/have to talk openly about
    with the partner, it won't work.  
    
    	It is a spontaneous, having-the-right info or feedback at
    the right time and the appropriate temperaments to deliver/receive
    relationship.  These things change over time as we change, as
    our jobs change, as our roles change.  Best we learn to recognize
    the beginnings and ends of those relationships non-verbally.
    
    	A previous manager that I was attempting to "separate" from
    finally indicated he understood it was time when he dropped off
    a magazine article on my desk "50 Ways to Leave your Mentor", with
    a gentle smile.
    
    	Onward to new and better things...but the opportunities for
    mentoring and being mentored are truly right around us.
    
    	Will introduce myself in 2.x shortly.
    

    I think that mentoring is important - I've had several to greater
    or lesser degrees.  One gave me what I needed to get this job with
    DEC - basically "Believe in yourself.  You don't need to work at menial
    jobs all your life".  She and I have parted ways professionally
    now, but still see each other socially.
    
    The topic was networking.  Men clearly have the "good ole boy" network,
    where they can call friends and acquaintances to find out how to
    get what they need.  Women need this type of support too.  In my
    utopia there would only be one such network for both sexes, but
    it is impossible to get into the men's network, so we need to create
    our own.
    
    I like groups.  I think that feminist consciousness raising groups
    are a very important part of our women-ness in today's society.
    If you know of one, join it if possible.  If not, see if you can
    start one.  It is not difficult.  Start with a (small) group of
    friends and let word spread.  A number of times in these types of
    groups I've seen someone with a need (a place to live, a job) and
    ask in the group, and find out that someone there either was in
    a position to help or knew someone that was.  It also gets you fairly
    close to a number of people who can offer support through almost
    anything that arises.  I've been called at 3:00 A.M by someone who
    needed to talk because she was going through a breakup with her
    SO.  We women need each other, and due to various societal pressures
    have been separated.
    
    Kathleen

        Kathleen, I have to take exception with one thing you said
        in your note 6.9 --
        
>                        Men clearly have the "good ole boy" network,
>    where they can call friends and acquaintances to find out how to
>    get what they need.
        
        _Some_ men are tied into a "good ole boy" network.  This is _not_
        a universal perquisite of all men, awarded them simply due to
        their maleness.  I agree with you 100% that women need this
        support too, but if you really believe that "it is impossible to
        get into the men's network", you're giving up without really
        trying.  And that is a shame.
        
        Some men, given the opportunity, will step on ANYONE (male or
        female, no discrimination) if it will lead to personal
        advancement.  This is by no means a universal male characteristic.
        If it were, given the present (inequitable) distribution of
        wealth, power, etc., women, blacks, the poor, and so on, would
        have little hope for advancement -- nor would men who do not have
        the good fortune to the tied into the "good ole boy" network. 
        
        Tom

        There are different kinds of personal nets... although often
        (always?) the functions get mixed.  It's just like in notes
        conferences.  Some are work related... there's every reason why
        these should be shared by everyone, openly.  Some are oriented
        to more personal topics... and there's justification for a
        "women's" net or conference (even if men are participants), and
        a "men's" net or conference (even if women are participants). 
        
        For non-personal topics, notes conferences have done a lot...
        I've had a number of people see me comment on some subject
        of interest to them in some conference, and call (or send
        mail) to ask information.  Often something I know little
        else about... but I may be able to refer them to someone
        more appropriate, because I have my own contacts.
        
        The net opens things up a lot.  There's no reason you should
        have to know someone personally, or have permanent or close
        connections to someone, to ask a non-personal question. 
        You don't even have to *know* if the person is male or female,
        and in most cases there's no reason why you should care.
        
        We've got a start right here... in both of the introduction
        topics, people have described what they do.  Need some help
        in that area... want some more information... or just curious?
        Give the person a call (they'd probably love to hear your
        voice... personal identification is somewhat lacking in notes
        conferences, and having a voice to hang on it is sometimes
        nice), or just send mail.  We've *got* a network, for
        work-related help.
        
        For personal help... personal friends are usually the best,
        anyway, since you might not want to trust a stranger's personal
        advice too far.  For those who do, well, I suppose you just
        start talking to friends... and they talk to their friends,
        and so forth.  I don't think I've had much experience with
        male personal networks (much less female ones)... I'm an
        introverted loner (never know it from my notes, huh? :-)).

        But non-personal "networks" are easy to use, because you've
        got all the resources of our computer net at your disposal.
        It doesn't have to be "made"... it's already awaiting your
        command...
        
        	/dave

    RE: .10
    
    Tom, I don't want to start an argument, but there IS a men's network,
    though all men aren't necessarily included.  There are also people's
    networks, which I hope to someday be the main network.
    
    However, there are reasons for single-sex networks.  For example,
    what would you (or I) get out of joining a networking group which
    consisted of housewives whose main interest in life is their house
    and raising their children?  Before anyone flames me for this, I
    will add that these are worthwhile interests - they're just not
    applicable to me.  There are also other groups that focus on issues
    that are pretty much single-sex issues. 
    
    Before women generally worked outside the home, the men would meet
    one another and form business oriented networks (good ole boy
    network).  The women had cliques too, but they were not as "do
    something for me and I'll do something for you" oriented.  Now,
    women's lifestyles have changed drastically over the last 50 years.
    Now we too need this business related network too.  By some (read -
    not all) men, women are not really taken seriously.  Thus we can't
    really get into the men's networks.
    
    Kathleen

    Don't you find that there seem to be unforced single-sex groupings,
    Marge?  I do, e.g., men's athletic clubs, or men getting together
    to watch football matches.   There are women's groupings too, but
    I just can't think of any at the moment.
    
    Or is your disagreement with the idea of such groupings rather than
    the reality?
    
    					=maggie

	    Let's look at it from another angle . . .
	    Given that there are some men (myself included) who are not
	part of an "old boy network" and don't really want to be part of
	anything that excludes on basis of sex, and given that there are
	some women who are not part of a sex-exclusive network and don't
	want to be either; wouldn't it be nice for us to put together
	our own nonsexist network?
			<_Jym_>

    Yes indeed, Jym!
    
    My only concern is that people-oriented people often tend to be
    (relatively) powerless.
    
    					=maggie

    It seems to me that some people here perceive networks as a
    mysterious key to power.
    
    Your interests and the people you meet are the stuff of your
    network.  Time is a big factor.
    
    Here's a silly example: I've been playing Dungeons and Dragons for
    some years now.  It happens that my Dungeonmaster was a school friend
    of a co-worker.  My DM runs several weekly sessions, and other of
    his school friends play in them.  Occasionally I've played with
    *those* people.  Just about all of them are also science fiction
    fans, and I've been going to SF conventions since 1974, so I've
    met some of them repeatedly.
    
    Now, you might say, "Well, so what?"  All these people -- ALL of
    them -- are involved with technology, some work for DEC, some don't.
    Whenever we are setting up for play, or meet each other wandering
    the halls of conventions, we chat about what's going on.  Thus,
    when I decided to change jobs, there were almost a dozen people I
    could ask about neat things to do, and they knew my background.
    
    I just bring this example up to show that there are other frivolous
    activities, besides the oft-cited football games and hunting lodges,
    which happen to be good places for the exchange of professional
    information.
    
    Pat
    

    re: 15 & 16
    
    Feels like we are doing that here!
    
    Angeline

There is an organization here in Colorado Springs called The Network that
meets the first and third Wednesdays of every month.  I have only just heard
of it from an women's newspaper, so haven't had a chance to check it out
yet.  It appears to be a professional/business group that ascribes to most
of the things described in this note.  I'll post more if anyone is interested.

Re:  --

I agree with Kathleen's assertion that men have traditionally established
networks and women have traditionally tried to "do it alone."  In addition
to the historical male discrimination, women have not supported each other
through networks or other means of support.  It's time for women to learn
the "give-and-take" that men seem to take for granted and not exclude help
from anyone else.

Re: 6.15 --

Which brings me to my next point: I believe that it is equally important
for the existence of primarily-men-oriented networks, primarily-women-oriented
networks, AND primarily-people-oriented networks.  To exclude any one of
these invites the abuse mentioned by both Tom and Jym, and the "powerlessness"
mentioned by Maggie.

One more thing before I get off my soapbox -- mentoring sounds like the
one-to-one that Maggie mentioned she was most comfortable with and it is
wonderful!  It's wonderful if you are either the mentor or the mentoree.
It's especially great to have a chance to play both sides.  But, mentoring
doesn't and shouldn't exclude the usefulness of a network.  Think of it as
meeting future mentors/mentorees :^).


							Terza

    

    Re: 6.9, 6.17, 6.19 "Good Old Boys" network:
    
    I have to say here that I have never had a 'networking' problem.
    Most of the people whom I would consider as part of my 'network'
    are men.  I majored in computer science where nine out of ten
    students were male.  My professional network consists mainly of
    friends from school, people I have known from other jobs, and many
    people whom I've met through sports, activities, etc.
    
    I can see where you'd have a problem if you're just starting out
    in a certain career or if you're changing careers, though.
    
    Right now my problem is that I'd like to meet more women with whom
    to network.  This conference is an EXCELLENT start. 
    
    Re: Maggie's base note
    This may be a tangent at this point, but I'm glad to know that I'm
    not the only one who gets confused in new group situations.  I think
    that there are a couple of reasons.  One, I find myself wanting to get
    to know everyone, learn about them, and give everyone my attention.
    Secondly, I think there is too much ungrounded, scattered energy
    in groups for my liking.
    
    	{Ellen}  

    <blush> Reading over the responses to this I realised that I never
    did actually explain, as asked, my comment about being confused
    by groups.  Maybe because I was groping for a way to say it and
    then got distracted.  Abject apologies anyhow <grovel,grovel>.
    
    Ellen's reasons are very close to mine, I think:  more than a couple
    other people and I just feel overwhelmed, unable to sort out
    individuals; just too many possible foci for my attention.  And it also
    seems as tho the Coefficient of Triviality <grin> rises as the square
    of the group's size, makes emotional investment a chore.
    
    					=maggie

    This is a response to 6.9.
    
    A male replied (6.10) to the comment,"It is impossible to get into
    a man's network", by stating that the women who can't get in aren't
    trying.  I am a female, and still this was my initial reaction to
    the comment.  I just graduated from college and all of my best college
    buddies were men.  Even if they weren't my buddies, I would still
    feel perfectly free to go up to any man in class and say, "Did you
    understand what just went on?" or "Did you manage to finish the
    project?"  This would always lead into a conversation on how we
    each handled the assignment and we would both always learn something
    from the exchange.
    
    I have no problems with male networks and neither do any of my
    female friends who are in male dominant societies.  What women
    need to do is realize that men are human too and want to learn
    from women as much as we want to learn from them.  If this can
    be accomplished then we should have no problems networking,
    mentorring, learning from each other, and sharing with each other.
    
    People need people and women do NOT need ONLY men!
    
    aud...
          

    -.1
    
    Remember this Aud, because I would like your reaction in another 5
    years. This will have given you an opportunity to explore for yourself
    beyond the noble environment of a college/university setting. I
    would be interested in what you find as you have had the opportunity
    to work in a more real heterogeneous society. 
            
    MBA 1984
    PhD Human Relations.....ever evolving
    
    Ann

    re: 6.22, also
    
    I too hope that you are able to retain that positive attitude
    over time, Audrey.  
    
    When I got out of school, I shared your feelings, and couldn't
    figure out why it seemed like the few women around me seemed 
    either sad or bitter with regard to the working relationships.
    Unfortunately, now I know.  It took about 2 yrs. at DEC, right
    out of school, to totally destroy my idealism.  It's taken 
    another 3 to generally leave the bitterness behind (being bitter
    is poison for me).
    
    Now I just feel sort of realistic--sometimes I get pleasant
    surprises, but I still have unpleasant surprises, too.
    
    	Good luck!--who knows?  *maybe* things are changing enough
    to keep such a positive attitude.

    I'm new to this notes file, so I will go back and introduce myself.
    In regards to networking, I too was confused for a long time by
    what networking really meant - I'm still not sure I know.
    
    However, let me explain what networking means to me.  I have now
    been with DEC for 8 years.  I have held several different positions
    and have made many many friends.  I network by keeping in constant
    touch with my closest friend and aquaintances.  I keep up with their
    jobs and have quite a large telephone listing.  I call these people
    every month or so to keep up with what they are doing, where they
    are working and what their present organization does within this
    company.
    
    These friends are men and women and probably more men.  If I am
    in a position where I need assistance (whether it be professional
    or personal) I never hesitate to call on them.  I would hope that
    they would feel the same if I am able to help them.
    
    As for mentoring, I had one mentor who is now a very close friend.
    I call on her for advice and assistance whenever needed and she
    now does the same with me.
    
    I hope this helps anyone out there who might still be confused.
    And if there is anyone out there needing help in any matter, do
    not hesitate to contact me.
    
    Debbie

    Re: .-1
    
    Old Boy Networks: Who We Know and How We Use Them
    
    has now hit the remainders lists--seen in the Summer 1987 catalog
    of Edward R. Hamilton, Bookseller.
    
    Address is	Edward R. Hamilton
    		Falls Village, CT 06031-5000
    
    Item number for this book is	65811
    
    Price is		$2.95  (+ $3.00 postage and handling per order)
    
    (original price $16.95)                                            
    
    Hamilton is a reputable firm, especially about damaged or unwanted
    books.  The $3 fee isn't so bad if you're getting a whole pile.