Conference turris::womannotes-v1

	    I suggest sending an announcement to Lisa (MILES::) Chabot.
	If you ask, she may publicize it by forwarding the announcement
	to her mailing list (described in Note #3.0 as the DEC redist-
	ribution of the Usenet women's mailing list).
	    Of course, not all the people on the list are women, but it
	is a list of people interested in women's issues.
			<_Jym_>

                
    I maintain a database that contains the node addresses of about
    450 women in the Process & Design Support organization.  About half
    are located in APO and most others are in MLO or NRO.
        
    From the responses I get to messages I've sent in the past, I know 
    the information is forwarded far and wide.
    
    If you like, I can send something like the EASYNET_CONFERENCES
    announcement out.
    
    =ss

    That sounds a terrific idea, Sharon!
    
    1.2 has a copy of the "Official Press Release" <grin> if you want
    to use that, it has a quickie VAXnotes tutorial appended to it.
    
    					=maggie

 .0: Why are fewer women than men active on notes files. It can't be
    purely based on the ratio surely?
    
    	Ted

    <--(.4)--(
    
    Well, probably not proportionately anyway.  My sense (looking around
    PCSG) is that (a) there are actually fewer women available to be
    participants and (b) many have administrative jobs in which the
    workload is high and the opportunities (time, hardware, encouragement)
    for getting in touch with the larger community few.
    
    For example, Ted, I don't think I've seen any women writing from
    the Sidney area.  Are there women working there?  In jobs that would
    afford them the opportunity to participate?
    
    					=maggie

        Also, there may be more women participating than you realize...
        many people don't sign their first names.  While it's possible
        and even likely (based on the proportions of male/female
        who probably have access to notes) that many or most of those
        people are male, it's certainly possible that virtually all
        of them are female... perhaps women are just less likely
        to identify themselves (and therefore their sex) when
        contributing to note files.  Witness the large number of
        women authors (Andre Norton, James Tiptree, Jr, etc.) who
        publish under ambiguous or distinctly masculine pseudonyms.
        
        Possibly interesting aside: I, at least, find myself
        subconsciously assigning arbitrary "working" sex based on the
        node name (e.g., "MAUDE::FOOBAR" comes across as feminine while
        FRED::JONES comes across as masculine).  It can be strange
        to start with that impression from the beginning of a note
        only to find at the end a signature indicating the opposite
        sex.  Anyone else notice this?
        
        	/dave 

    <heheh> yah, Dave, I've noticed that I do the same thing when it
    looks "obvious".  We're so conditioned to see a given-name/surname
    pair that the nodename just gets drafted.
    
    (Btw, how do you pronounce "Clt" <giggle>)
    
    					=maggie
    
    
    (What will you bet that the authors you mention began using masculine
    pseudos in order to get published?)

        .7: As for the "clt" pronunciation, I wouldn't touch that
        line with a 10 foot pole... and, as the old saw goes, Joe
        Wozinski the 10 foot pole wouldn't touch it, either. :-)
        
        As for the authors... well, sure.  But even "back then" (eons
        and eons ago in the 1950s and such), women could get published.
        But, especially in their chosen field (science fiction),
        women didn't get much acceptance from critics or readers,
        until very recently (some might argue that they still haven't).
        They used masculine pseudonyms so they would be accepted
        as men by the public, rather than being ignored as women.
        
        I'm sure that some of that sort of attitude still exists, even
        in areas like software engineering.  It seems that it could well
        be that some women on the net, without going to the lengths of
        using a pseudonym, are nevertheless avoiding advertising their
        sex (which is easy when all you have to do is leave off your
        first name).  Perhaps with justification... 
        
        But then, this is really an aside from the thrust of this
        topic (or is it?  It's hard to tell with notes conferences...)
        ;-)
        
        	/dave
        
        	/dave

    Digital in Albuquerque, NM has recently opened an I.S.C. (Information
    Support Center). They are introducing many folks to NOTES, and the
    women here are getting interested. Work loads do prevent alot of
    women from being active participants at this time, but hopefully
    that will change in the near future as they learn about all that
    NOTES has to offer.
    
    Fortunately, my present job capacity aloows me the time to be active,
    but that could all change when I get the opportunity to leave the
    Security unit.
    
    Are any other plants out there using Learning Centers and Information
    Support Centers to educate people about notes?
    
    -sunny-

        I've never heard of an "Information Support Center" before,
        but it sounds like an excellent idea.  Would I be correct in
        assuming that the folks there help you learn to use VTX and
        other things (MAIL, etc) as well as NOTES, and point you to
        the useful information sources on the network?
        
        Tom

    Hi Tom,
    
    Yes, to answer your question 5.10.
    
    There is a small team of folks who are introducing all employees
    to everything that the VAX currently offers, and also to help other
    folks who already use these utilities, to use them to their fullest
    extent. It is really a very interesting class room type atmospere
    with alot of positive-mined folks running it.
    
    If you ever get out this way...I would be delighted to show you
    around the various "learning" groups that we have here in Albuquerque.
    
    -sunny-

    This notesfile got some unexpected publicity when it was used as
    a sample for an article on using VAXnotes published by the Chelmsford,
    Mass. Business Technology Integration Center last week.  I understand 
    from Maggie that the number of users of Womannotes took quite a jump
    after the article was published!  (Thanks to Sandy Newfield!)
    
                                               -Holly

    I've had one inquiry from a member who was, very rightly, concerned
    that actual content had been extracted for the sake of the article.
    
    I'm glad to be able to report that that was not the case, the material
    used was (I was surprised and flattered to note!) the mini-tutorial
    written for the "press release" (1.2).  As it prominently featured
    the name of this file, nature took her course <smile>.
    
    					=maggie

>    As it prominently featured
>    the name of this file, nature took her course <smile>.
    
     In the light of the preference towards chair-persons and other
        Non-gendered terms, should abstract concepts such as Mother
        Nature (and indeed Father Time) be referred to in a Non-Sexual
        Manner?
        
        Peter Q.                             :-)
        
        Seriously, Good to see the Publicity. When I get some spare
        time I shall introduce my Secretary to Noting and this conference.
        
        

        Also, since the traditional gender of "nature" is feminine
        ("mother nature" and all that), "nature took her course" hardly
        seems to justify a sly "<smile>" comment... if that's what
        it was supposed to be (maybe it was just a prideful grin
        about the free publicity?)
        
        Anyway, "mother nature" is nearly as bad as "chairman" (are
        little boys to grow up believing that they can't aspire to
        becoming Nature!??  :-))
        
        	/dave

    In reply to Peter Q. on Note 5.14, are you joking?
    
    Believe it or not, there are some secretaries who
    already know about this file!!  Although, I will admit
    it's not easy find out about these things what with all
    the more technical, high-paying jobs still being mainly
    occupied by men.  I think it's real nice that when you
    have a chance you're going to teach your secretary 
    about this notes file.  By the way, you never said, is
    your secretary a man or a woman??  Just wondered.
    
    Lorna
    ( a Digital secretary)
    

        re .-1
        
        No, I am not joking. Of course, there are secretaries that know 
        about  this  file already.  But there are a lot of secretaries, 
        mine included, who feel less than comfortable  with  networking 
        and  Vaxen  etc.  I have worked with a variety of computers for 
        over 10 years, and I am disconcerted by the number of people in 
        this  corporation  that  are scared of technology.  This is not 
        particular  to  Women  or  Secretaries,  there  are  many  Male 
        Managers  who  fall into the same classification.  Though it is 
        not in my charter, one of the things I try  to  put  a  lot  of 
        effort   into   is   educating   others  in  the  organization. 
        Unfortunately, the people chartered to do this �/ Get upset and 
        �/ don't help.  I spend probably 3  hours  every  week teaching 
        people  how  to use computers properly!! While we still have an 
        organization that insists on having IBM Selectric Typewriter on 
        most  secretaries  Desks  when  we  have  word  processor/laser 
        printer combinations that would blow your sox off, I shall keep 
        at  it.   Marilyn, my secretary, is keen to learn, has mastered 
        Vax (i.e. Non-WPS) editing, Vax-mail, ALL-IN-1, and videotex in 
        the last couple of weeks, next step is noting...
        
        
        q

    re 16
    
    Being a Secretary, I can understand the point in .16.  There seems
    to be the impression that "secretaries" type, take dictation, make
    coffee, set up meetings, etc., but really have no technical abilities
    at all.  I think part of this attitude is emphasized by the fact
    that we're classified as Wage Class 2 people or worse yet (ugh)
    NON-PROFESSIONAL.
    
    re 17
    
    You made several good points.  I can't understand why we have IBM
    typewriters in full view of any customers who may be walking through
    the area either.  I would wager that IBM doesn't have DEC word
    processors in their facilities (or at least in full view).  
    
    As far as your teaching your secretary All-in-1, VAXmail, etc.,
    I'm sure once she's learned all that she'll see how useful the tools
    can be in doing her job.  She is lucky that she has a Specialist
    who is willing to take the time to teach her...  I wouldn't mind
    any pointers on using notes better than I do, as what I know has
    pretty much been hit-n-miss or asking Kristy.
    
    				Billie (CEO04::Ackerman)
    

        Re:  IBM typewriters -- well, they _are_ the world's best
        typewriter company.  Too bad for them that we're better at
        computers and networks.
        
        Tom

    In my organization, I'm the one who taught the engineers how to
    use the NOTES utility (I'm a secretary), as well as getting them
    to learn how to do things for themselves once in awhile (after all,
    I'm not always going to be around to hold their hands while they
    go to the men's room!)
    
    						*** Kristy ***

    In reply to 5.16 and 5.17, I have never worked for anyone
    who has taken the time to show me everything you mentioned.
    Some people might say that maybe it was because I didn't
    appear interested, but it is difficult to appear interested
    in technology that it never occurred to you exists!
    
    I have worked for DEC for 10 1/2 years.  The first 5 yrs. as
    a word processing operator and the last 5 1/2 yrs. as a 
    secretary.  With the exception of about 8 mos., all of my
    time as a secretary has been in engineering groups.  However,
    the first time that I ever heard of Notes was about 2 months
    ago when I overheard my boyfriend and another friend 
    discussing the music file.  I asked them what they were talking
    about and they told me.  The day I sent the response to you
    was the first day I had ever logged into a notes file after
    10 1/2 yrs. at DEC!!  Earlier that day my boyfriend had said,
    "You might enjoy womannotes."  He told me how to log in and
    I read the messages by educated, professional men who were
    being sarcastic about why more men seemed to take the time
    to write into notes than women.  They appeared ignorant of the
    obvious answer - that most women still don't have jobs on
    a high enough level for them to have an occasion to even be
    aware that Notes exists.  Then, you went on to joke about
    terms which refer to gender such as "Mother Nature" yet all
    the time taking it for granted that everyone would know that
    your secretary is a woman.  Of course everyone knows almost all
    secretaries are woman, at Digital and everywhere else.  Except
    for a few college students working part-time, there probably
    isn't a man in America who would get out of bed in the morning
    for what most secretaries earn for a living.
    
    I realize this is not your fault, and by encouraging secretaries
    to learn new things, you are doing some good.  But, even though
    it took me a long time to realize it, I think there is something
    really wrong with the fact the one part of the human race
    (women) are conditioned practically from birth to expect less
    from life than the other half (men).
    
    I really hope that someday this changes and that the competent
    women of the world push the more incompetent men out of their
    jobs with such force that the work force (and salaries) will
    finally be equal.  By this I mean as many women with professional
    jobs as men in companies like DEC, and as many men doing 
    clerical types of jobs.  I hope that someday the organization
    chart in the orange Personnel Policies and Procedures book at
    DEC has as many women's names on it as men's.
    
    It was thoughts such as these that were behind my reply.
    

Flame on:

Response 1:
>    In reply to 5.16 and 5.17, I have never worked for anyone
>    who has taken the time to show me everything you mentioned.
>    Some people might say that maybe it was because I didn't
>    appear interested, but it is difficult to appear interested
>    in technology that it never occurred to you exists!
    
I started out as a secretary at DEC.  I am a software engineer in MKO
now.  When I was a secretary I handled a group of about 37 engineers,
3 of whom were women.  I came to DEC knowing about WPS-80 and that
was it.  DEC said they'd pay for it, so I took an Intro to Computers
course thru B.U. because I knew squat about the industry.

The engineers, hearing me struggle with homework and the day-to-day
intricasies (spelling?? Please forgive!) of the VAX that was confusing
the *HELL* out of me, offered some ears and eyes and experience.  Within a
month I as VAX-fluent.  Within 6 months I was performing sysgens on RSX
systems to get the attention of the managers (who were not interested
in me as anything but a secretary) and within the year I was in the
Programmer Training Program in DIS.  That was 4 years ago.  I married the
guy who taught me how to sysgen RSX systems -- boy, talk about gratitude
(hee hee).  But that's another story.

As the cop will say as he pulls you over and writes you a ticket for
wearing headphones while you drive, ignorance is no excuse.  If you choose
ignorance, you stay ignorant.  How can you plead ignorance in technology
when you've worked in DEC for 10 1/2 years??  NOTES files have been around
for YEARS!!!!!

Now, before you leap on me, I *KNOW* how you feel and I know how angry
you are about where you are and all the crap you had/have to put up
with!!!!  

But if only you'd channel that anger TOWARDS something productive, you've
be a &@^@*(&^# Vice-president by now!!!!!!  Well, that's *IF* you could be
a VP in DEC, which because you're a woman, you can't, but that, too, is another
story.  

I didn't FALL into where I am -- I worked my @^@#%$ butt off for it...!
Chances are made, not given away.... make some opportunities for yourself.
Don't stand around and WAIT for someone to TELL you something!! Walk into
your managers office and say," I'm tired of being illiterate!!  Show me!
Show me!"

Now... if your manager throws you out on your ear, THAT'S a problem!

Response 2:
>    .... there probably isn't a man in America who would get out of 
>    bed in the morning for what most secretaries earn for a living.

My brother-in-law left a $40,000 position to make $9,500 (less than minimum
wage) to fly airplanes with a feeder airline in NH.  It wouldn't even pay
for his gas to Manchester airport, so he left Boston and moved to northern NH
to live with his Mom while he did work that he loves....  He's willing to
hate his pay to love his job.

My cousin packs tomatoes on the wharf in Boston.  He makes $18 dollars an
hour, works 40 hours a week and doesn't get paid for his 1/2 hour lunch.
He hates his job, but he loves his new house, his Audi, his vacations in
the tropics, and having money for anything he wants.  He's willing to hate
his job to love his pay.

You are neither.... You neither love your job nor love your pay.  You can't
be happy because you can't win.  You either need to love your job (you
need a new job) or love your pay (the secretarial field needs an overhaul).

You can only change one of those things....  Please note response 1.
    
Bugsy

    Getting back to why it seems that not many women write in the notes
    files....
    
    I used to read a lot of non work-related files, but lately I've
    given them up. Now most of the notes files I read now are because of
    my work. The non-work notes files I've read lately seem to be dominated
    by five or ten (or so) main writers who pretty much converse with
    (at?) each other. More often than not, it's men who are conversing. 
    Many times, when someone new to the file (or new to the note even) 
    adds something, he or she is pounced upon immediately. 

    Did I say conversing? I mean clawing it out. People in notes can 
    get ugly. Every single time I ever replied to a note, I was picked 
    apart and dismissed. I feel intimidated when I write, express my 
    thoughts, and then promptly get blasted. I'm intimidated just by
    the THOUGHT of being blasted. I suspect that other women feel the 
    same way and remain readers rather than writers. Sure, men can be 
    intimidated too, yet notes has shown that many of them are not
    intimidated enough to inhibit them from continuing to debate. 

    And the more they go on, the less I even want to get involved
    sometimes. 
            
    This is the first note I've written in a year. Please be kind.
   
    Lisa

    Good on you for taking the risk, Lisa!  
    
    					=maggie

    It's nice and warm in here!
    
    Lisa

    Lisa...no one walks on water, even the ones who think they do.
    Well-founded, rational discussion is welcomed by most and "pounced
    upon" often times out of a personal or emotional reaction. Your
    opinions are of no less value than anyone else's. Simply believe
    in yourself.
    
    Ann

	    There are more men in the notesfiles - in *all* the notes-
	files - and one can thus expect more men to be "flaming" in them
	as well.  Computer-mediated conferences have been observed by
	many to inspire angrier conversations.  Most observers think
	this is because reaction is delayed, and thus inhibitions from
	said reaction don't arise.  Also, there are more opportunities
	for misunderstanding because (1) the nonverbal cues that one
	would have in conversation are missing (though the little (-:
	:-) smiley faces are a bit of a help), and (2) most technical
	people (heck, most Americans!) are not adept at expressing
	themselves in print.
	    I've seen plenty of women holding up their end of a flame-
	fest, especially in SOAPBOX.  The Usenet appears to have more
	flammable (-:) women than the E-Net.
			<_Jym_>

re .26	Hey, come on, *I* walk on water!   :-)

re .27  I've heard of reports done on computer mail which indicate that the
	distance the computer offers between correspondents enables more
	introverts to come out and speak their piece.  I imagine that this 
	follows for notes files.

	(I have a very good friend who is great to talk to in person, etc,
	but I'd hate to be on the other side of a battle with him in a 
	computer-mediated "discussion" -- he seems to feel a separation 
	between what he writes there and "real-life", and often states that
	no one takes it seriously.  I don't (that's why I try to control
	flaming as I would in any discussion).)

- Linda

	

    
    Re .23, one way to look at it is that it's good to get people thinking
    even if they disagree with you.  Sometimes people do write mean
    things but at least they can't leap out of the terminal and strangle
    me!
    
    I do think that the people who write into this notesfile tend to
    be more liberal in overall views than people who write into
    human_relations, especially the men.  Also, the books notefile tends
    to be heavily dominated by men with (my opinion) boring tastes.
     I think I like this file because, besides the topic, the few men
    who participate tend to be more enlightened than the average male
    noter.
    
    Lorna
    

    Kind of like driving in Massachusetts.... you're removed
    from the real person and it's too easy to be aggressive.

    	-Ellen G.

    Lisa, I'm glad you felt comfortable enough to plunge in again, and
    chose this notesfile in which to do it.
    
    I like computer communication in general because it gives me time
    to compose my thoughts, lose my train of thought and regain it,
    and best of all, control-C something that started out fine and ended
    up somewhat foolish.  For that matter, it allows me to save things
    that start out mundane and end up somewhat better than that!
    
    I have trouble with face to face conversation because my timing
    just seems different from that of other people.  I am ok in structured
    situations, but poor at small talk or social occasions with people
    I don't already have good relationships with.  I feel very anxious
    in a face to face conversation, and rarely can say much because
    I'm so distracted by the process of real-time speech and gestures
    and mannerisms.  Maybe I have trouble decoding it fast enough.
    (I wouldn't characterize myself as shy though...)
    
    Anyway, in notes the message is the message.  I like that.  I know
    what I'm responding to, and I don't get interrupted until I have
    gotten a complete thought out!
    
    Holly

    One more thing--
    
    I have noticed that people who "own" their opinions (I think, I
    like, I wonder) get flamed somewhat less than people who generalize
    (people think, men want, kids should, all humans should believe,
    etc.).  It's hard for me to get all worked up about a message in
    which the writer talks about her beliefs and doesn't try to pawn
    them off on me, or tell me what I should do or think or like.
    
    Back in the 1970's that was an important feature of the consciousness
    raising groups.  Each woman in my group was asked to try to speak
    in "I-messages" as opposed to "you-messages".  I remember having
    to learn to say things like "I would like to be able to speak without
    being interrupted" rather than "you shouldn't interrupt me" or "this
    group should have a rule that people don't interrupt one another".
    Although it sounds like a semantic difference, for me it was a question
    of taking responsibility for what I said, thought, wanted and liked. 
    
    Also, each woman was considered to be an expert on herself!  If a woman
    said something about herself that the group didn't agree with, we
    had to learn not to contradict her, even when it meant allowing
    her to express something negative about herself.  The other women in
    the group sometimes had to learn to refrain from saying seemingly
    supportive things which negated her statement.
    
    Womennotes seems to have a very high content-to-flames-ratio compared
    with some of the other notesfiles.  Many of the people who write in
    this file seem to intuitively practice the principle of speaking
    for themselves in a positive way.
    
    Holly 

    re:  32
    
    Holly,
    
    I sat shaking my head yes through reading your note;  then realized
    that one of the ways I defuse my reaction to 'people...' is to do an 
    almost subconscious traslation to 'in your opinion people...'.  I'll
    have to remember that trick when my dander starts to rise!
    
    Thanks,
    	     Audrey

    Lorna - You just made my morning.  I love reading - even had a bookswap
    for a while.  Naturally, I was interested in the BOOKS notesfile
    but seeing the types of books the (predominantly) men write about,
    I felt uncomfortable interjecting my views.  
    I keep up with much of the fiction best sellers, enjoy some
    biographies,like adventure/mystery and truly enjoy books about women
    who have made it in the business world, SINS, WOMENS'S WORK, WOMAN
    OF SUBSTANCE, THE WOMEN'S ROOM, DECEPTION and dare I say I enjoy Judith
     Krantz  to name just a few.  
    When I had my store, I got hooked on reading the romances - enjoy
    some of the historical ones - but to be honest, I read them in between
    what I call the "better" books.  They are strictly escapism, mindless,
    and I'm not ashamed to say I like them.
    and thoroughly enjoyable.  
    

    
    Re .22, I just happened to come across this response to what I wrote
    a long time ago.  I disagree that ignorance is never an excuse.
     You can't specifically request info about something that you don't
    know exists.  If you find it difficult to believe that I worked
    for DEC for 10 1/2 yrs. before I heard about notes, what do you
    think about the fact that I didn't know about the "birds and the
    bees" (to put it delicately) until I was 16 yrs. old?  When I tell
    that to teenage girls I know today it really gets a hoot!  (And
    I mean know about not experience - that came even later!)  Besides,
    I worked in Printing & Circulation Services for my first 3 1/2 yrs
    at DEC.  All of DEC is not Engineering.  Some of those other
    departments are like other worlds.  At P&CS they just don't walk
    up to new hires and say "Hey, for some fun, read notes."
    
    Everyone is different.  You are obviously a competitve, ambitious
    person.  I am not.  I admit I don't really know exactly what I want
    to do with my life right now, but in my defence I will say that
    at least I'm intelligent enough to realize that the secretarial
    wasteland does need an overhaul and intelligent enough to be bored
    with mundane work.  I don't find computers interesting so that does
    pose a problem with advancing at DEC.  I don't want to be a technician
    or an engineer.  I hate trying to fix mechanical things.  But, I
    don't think that means I can't at least look around me and point
    out some things that are not quite right with the world.  
    
    One factor that has kept me from trying to advance in a career is
    also shyness which has plaqued me all my life.  Somehow I doubt
    that's an obstacle that you have had to fight to overcome.  I consider
    the idea of public speaking to be one of the most frightening
    situations imaginable and it seems like advancing in one's job always
    includes it.  Besides, I'm not saying I want to be a yuppie's idea
    of success, I'm just sick of being dead broke every Sunday night.
    
    If we had to be perfect before we could express opinions, I'd suggest
    we all keep our thoughts to ourselves.
    
    How come you say "If you can't bite, don't bark!"  At least you
    may be able to rouse the neighbors.
    
    Lorna
    

>   I consider
>   the idea of public speaking to be one of the most frightening
>   situations imaginable and it seems like advancing in one's job always
>   includes it.
        
        I've always been practically terrified of public speaking,
        and I still don't do very well at it (at least, *I* don't
        think so).  But I survive.  I gave a talk on my project to
        a large audience at DECUS a few years ago.  I was shaking
        in my boots (well, sneakers), but I did it.  So can anyone.
        
        My father had the same problem.  He wanted to go into
        management, and knew he'd have to talk.  In any case, he
        has an absolute phobia about being imperfect at anything.
        He joined Toastmasters, and gave talks at every opportunity,
        and became one of the best speakers I've ever seen.  It just
        takes practise (though I'd be the first to admit that my
        father probably had more potential to begin with than most
        of us do, the *least* you could expect was to become comfortable
        with it... though mind you, I've never had the courage to
        try this myself: but like I said, I get by).
        
        I know that's not your only problem, and I know there are
        a lot of barrels in the way that you have to jump... but
        saying "I can't because there's a barrel in my way" is just
        an excuse.  And being terrified of something is one of the
        worst.  One of the best definitions of "hero" is someone
        who does something they're terrified of... because it has
        to be done.
        
        I hope this doesn't come off too negative... I'm rushing
        a bit to get finished.  If anything, it's supposed to be
        encouraging...
        
        	/dave

    Does anybody have any suggestions for improving one's public speaking
    skills?  (I'm thinking of something where women would be welcomed,
    encouraged, and supported...)  
    
    I did fine teaching little kids, but I'm terrified about giving
    a talk to peers, especially where I might be challenged.  I blank
    out.  I have a lot of trouble memorizing, and am totally dependent
    on visuals to even remember what to say.
    
    My trick has always been to make whiz-bang colored posters or slides
    and get everybody's attention focused on those and off me, but I'd
    really rather just feel comfortable.  
    
    I wish there was a supportive place to go practice our public speaking
    skills where we weren't under the gun <sigh>...

    I took DEC's "Presentation Skills for Impact" Internal course a
    while back, and truly enjoyed it.  Although most of the syllabus
    looks like techniques to use when giving a talk, most of what the
    instructor said was meant to give you a better attitude about getting
    up and speaking.  Everyone was supportive (it was explictly
    encouraged).  And, of course, we all got to give a short talk (any
    kind of experience has got to ease the next one).
    	Mez

    as part of the PTP curriculum, there's a week of Effective
    Communications, the last few days of which are "presentation
    skills" - i believe there were 3 times we had to get up in
    front of the room (and video camera, no less!) - this was
    definitely a supportive environment, and the practice really
    did help - you may want to look into DME courses for something
    like this, or the one mentioned in the last reply...

            karen

        Though I'm hardly an expert on either, you might want to
        give Toastmasters a try... they're supposed to be very
        supportive, very useful, and not just for men.  There also
        is (or at any rate, used to be) a Toastmistress group (my
        mother was in it, long ago), but I don't know if it still
        exists (it may have just merged back into the parent group
        when it went "co-ed").
        
        I recall hearing an announcement for the formation of at
        least one Toastmasters' group at DEC... I don't remember
        where; nor have I heard of it since, so it's possible they
        didn't get enough interest to get it going.
        
        In Toastmasters, you give *lots* of short-subject talks in
        front of the group, and the rest apply constructive criticism
        to help you improve.  Since everyone is going to have their
        turn, it seems unlikely anyone would try to tear you to pieces.
        
        	/dave

    I got my undergraduate degree at WPI where one of the requirements
    was a competency exam.  Part of that was to give a 1 hour oral
    presentation and question/answer session with 3 professors.  This
    was one of the things required for graduation, so passing it was
    quite an accomplishment, and lots of people had to take it multiple
    times.  Anyhow, I learned then and there that you can do something
    about your own attitude with presentations.  Just remember that
    you know more about the subject than they do, and proceed from there.
     That way, you can look at questions as questions, not as though
    someone is trying to trip you up (though that does happen on occasion).
    I found that by convincing myself that I was the expert on the topic,
    I was more calm giving the presentation, and could handle myself
    better.  You might try this technique, as it has worked for me.  
    
    I also remember that there was a Toastmasters Club in HLO a few
    years ago.  I don't know if they still exist.
    
    Cathy

	    [RE .40]:  Masters and mistresses?  I hope that particular
	split along semantic lines has gone away.
	    I think it was the ASKENET notesfile where people were
	talking about a DEC Toastmasters Club.
			<_Jym_>

	    Tracking down the ASKENET notes, I find that a whole notes-
	file has been established for Toastmasters:

				COMET::TOASTMASTERS

	KP7 or SELECT will add it to your notebook.
			<_Jym_>

    	I wasn't a big public speaker either until a professor in college
    convinced me to audition for the theater.  My first audition was
    horrible, but I auditioned for another show and landed one of only
    four parts in the show.  I'm also active in community theater (the
    Walpole Footlighters) and we have at least one woman who was terrified
    of being on stage, but kept auditioning until she got first a small
    part, then a major role.  I'm still not anywhere near a great public
    speaker, but I can handle myself in front of crowds much better
    now than I used to.
    
    	And community theater is a *lot* of fun...
    
    					--Doug

    By all means join a public speaking club if you need to gain confidence
    in speaking -- they're a valuable experience, and they're fun!
    
    "Toastmistress" started as a sister club to Toastmasters when neither
    was co-ed. It has now been co-ed for I don't know how long, and last
    year changed its name to "International Training in Communication" to
    help diffuse the "mistress" image. (Same initials -- ITC -- used to
    stand for "International Toastmistress Clubs." ) 
    
    There's an ITC club in Nashua; see COMET::TOASTMASTERS. If you're not
    in the area, send me mail and I'll try to look up a club closer to you.
    ITC is still largely female, and the Nashua club is currently all women,
    which may be an advantage if you feel a women's group would be more
    supportive. (I joined for the opposite reason -- I'm more used to
    dealing with men professionally, and would like to be more comfortable
    in groups of women.) Of course, men are welcome.
    
    I read somewhere that 85% of all people consider themselves shy, so you
    may not be as alone as you think. Shyness has other manifestations
    besides fear of speaking -- some of the chattiest people are that way
    to mask their shyness, so don't assume they're all more confident than
    you are. 

    					Val

	There's a toastmasters club in Marlboro/Hudson Ma. that meets at
	DEC, but is not a DEC club.  I saw a sign that gave the following
	numbers to call if interested:  568-1910, 562-7036
	The sign says they meet Tuesdays at 7:00 in HL2.

	...Karen

>    I disagree that ignorance is never an excuse.
>     You can't specifically request info about something that you don't
>    know exists.  If you find it difficult to believe that I worked
>    for DEC for 10 1/2 yrs. before I heard about notes, what do you
>    think about the fact that I didn't know about the "birds and the
>    bees" (to put it delicately) until I was 16 yrs. old?  When I tell
>    that to teenage girls I know today it really gets a hoot!  (And
>    I mean know about not experience - that came even later!)  Besides,
>    I worked in Printing & Circulation Services for my first 3 1/2 yrs
>    at DEC.  All of DEC is not Engineering.  Some of those other
>    departments are like other worlds.  At P&CS they just don't walk
>    up to new hires and say "Hey, for some fun, read notes."

Keeping up with this stuff is hard, I know.  And I almost deleted the
note (I did wait the recommended 24 hours), but I then decided that if
you were ignorant about the computers around you, maybe you were as
equally ignorant in the ways that you can fight your way out (and a
fight it is, believe it!).

I guess my point was that you are in a computer company -- learning ANYTHING
about the industry would be an assist for you.

DEC isn't just all computers.  We have writers, researchers, a legal
department, manufacturing and control, a Personnel department (I was gonna
offer a general "phooey" on them here, but that would be an unfair personal
remark and I'm going to mind my manners and its really only a few select
Personnel people I've had problems with, so the "phooey" is on ONLY them
and they know who they are, so you other folks can ignore it) and libraries
and scads of other careers!!  

The awful truth is that we're centered around computers, so you have to
admit that you're gonna have to learn SOMETHING about them...

What I was referring to was not Engineering SPECIFICALLY, but I can only
offer what I did as the area in which I have the most experience.

I'd like to help motivate you, but can't help you unless you realize that
the impetus has to come from YOU!

    
>    One factor that has kept me from trying to advance in a career is
>    also shyness which has plaqued me all my life.  Somehow I doubt
>    that's an obstacle that you have had to fight to overcome.  

No, I overcame that obstacle at a very early age.  Everyone goes thru
a shy period and I did, but I had 5 brothers nipping at my heels every
step of the way and I had to develop a very strong personality just to
stay alive with those guys.

Shyness, though, comes from a small sense of self-worth.  When you're
secure in yourself, you're merely stating facts, not showing bravado.
If you could get yourself started in that career, then every little
success would add one more brick to the wall.


>    How come you say "If you can't bite, don't bark!"  At least you
>    may be able to rouse the neighbors.

Hee hee.. I know, everyone must think that was a part of the message. 
It wasn't.  A barker is bravado, a biter is something to contend with.
If I bark and don't bite, then my barking is meaningless.  If I bark
and then bite, then my bark is sufficient to represent my intent.
    
I would really like to help you, Lorna... I'd like to help anyone who
wants to make the break out of the chains of the secretarial field.
It's a Dickensian existence, complete with lost hope and daily beatings.

I apologize if my flame seemed too personal... I can be a bit thick
in the presentation of my passions.  

karen

    re 29: I wouldn't say we were. T'would be an unfair generalization.
           
           % setenv FLAME 1 
    
           California women that I have observed tend to disregard
           expectations men have of them and do what they want or
           what they feel they need to do. To say that "I'm doing
           what I'm doing because the world of men forced me to" is
           to cop out and make the world of men responsible for your
           welfare. Change if you must but don't blame my gender if
           your career path is unsatisfactory. There are plenty of
           F mentors about the company who gained recognition because
           they a) had stones, and b) weren't afraid to ask questions.
           

    I am a newcomer to notes, infact this is my first entry and hopefuly
    not my last. Perhaps the answer to why more men than woman are active
    on notes is women have less time to sit and  read/reply to notes.
    
    I have found the only time available is when  I am on night shift
    (I work a 24 hour shift rota). Otherwise I probably would not have
    known notes even existed.
    
    I look forward to getting to know you all over the coming months