| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 1.1 | Policy History | VIKING::TARBET | | Tue Jan 26 1988 17:28 | 106 |
|
Because the policy string was becoming uncomfortably long, we decided
to condense it, summarising the history of the changes so that we
don't lose track of how things have evolved...OR the very fact that
we're still working on who we are as a community and how we want to
do all this!
--------------------------------------------------------------------
.1 (23AP86) At Tom Blinn's suggestion, I made explicit the fact
that participation by men is welcomed and encouraged.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
.2 (25AP86) The burden of the formal "Press Release":
To all DEC-ies, women AND men:
Please feel free to participate in the new, open VAXnotes
notesfile =WOMANNOTES=, dedicated to discussion of all topics
of interest to women.
Essentially any subject is fair game. Career, family,
children, education, health, hopes, poetry, sport, DEC, world
events,....
Whatever.
Real-world (as opposed to intimate) relations between men and
women are certainly a potentially legitimate subject: men
know very little of us as people...and perhaps we are nearly
as ignorant about them.
Sexism whether overt or covert is unwelcome. It's expression
will be the subject either of gentle correction or scathing
criticism according to the will of the community in the
actual event.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
.3 (06MY86) If we want to preserve our community, we must do
two things: contribute to the discussions, and not harrass each
other by extracting and republishing material in an offensive
way.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
.4 (09JL86) Brief introductions solicited from *all* members,
including read-onlys. Women in 2.*, men in 7.*
--------------------------------------------------------------------
.7 (20OC86) Karen Taber ("Bugsy") agreed to help out as co-mod
--------------------------------------------------------------------
.8 (07NO86) 107.0 becomes the first note to be set hidden because
of an objection.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
.11 (28JA87) Anonymous postings via the moderators are explicitly
encouraged whenever desired. "No one should ever have to refrain from
starting or participating in discussions because of fear."
--------------------------------------------------------------------
.14 (02AP87) Bonnie Reinke agrees to replace Karen, who has taken
on other responsibilities that keep her too busy, as co-mod.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
.16 (07AP87) We reserve the right do summarily delete entries
posted anonymously by someone other than one of the moderators.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
.20 (07JL87) We clarify that our policy is to only hide or delete
notes when we're forced to do so.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
.21 (08JL87) A pointer to 378.0 et seq.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
.24 (19AU87) We are voted (438.*) the authority to summarily delete
or otherwise dispose of "trashnotes", defined as "entries that appear
to be pointlessly provocative, or otherwise devoid of worthy content
according to the purposes for which this file exists. Notes that are
merely light-heartedly trivial are specifically *not* considered
trashnotes within the meaning of this policy. Since any action is
necessarily a judgement call on the part of the moderator(s)
involved, you might wish to save a copy of any marginal submissions
for later re-posting if needed. Responses that will be "orphaned" by
the removal of a trashnote will also be removed."
--------------------------------------------------------------------
.25 (20AU87) Keywords are made available and their use encouraged
where appropriate:
DEC HOME STRAIGHT
EEO KIDS TRADITIONAL
FAMILY LESBIAN WC2
FEMINISM NETWORKING WC4
FOOD RELATIONSHIPS WORK
FUN SO
--------------------------------------------------------------------
.28 (04OC87) In response to objections from members of the
community (mostly men), we delete the original 1.28 (a clip of
another note, written by Lee Tatistcheff).
--------------------------------------------------------------------
.29 (09OC87) A current-directory string (500.*) is finally established.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
.34 (27OC87) Some housekeeping requests:
-- If the link to the file hangs, please control-Y out, not control-C.
-- Please don't leave a connection to the file unless you are actively
reading it.
-- Please defer exciting things (like major extracts) til off-hours.
-- Please don't run multiple simultaneous connects unless you really
need to.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
.38 (16DE87) We plead for fewer tangents and (again) for fewer
duplicate topics (check the directory: your topic may have been
discussed last year and all it needs is revival)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
.39 (01JA88) Liz Augustine and Holly Hendricks join us as co-mods.
New blood! (and zero sense of self-preservation)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| 1.2 | Purpose | VIKING::TARBET | | Tue Jan 26 1988 17:31 | 27 |
|
This file is meant to serve as a forum for the discussion of topics
that are interesting or important to women. Essentially any topic is
fair game: art, children, cookery, crafts, family, history, home,
humor, life, politics, religion, sport, spouses, work, the world...
anything at all.
In this file, the views of *all* DEC women --all skin colors, ages,
nationalities, jobs, sexual orientations, native languages, and degrees
of feminist/traditionalist consciousness are sought for and welcomed.
This is our place to talk with one another.
While we also generally encourage and support participation by men in
this space, this file does not exist to meet men's needs for education
or sport. Whenever it seems clear to us that the needs of women and
the needs of men are in conflict, the needs of women will take
precedence and we will take whatever action seems appropriate to meet
those needs.
Whether this file succeeds or fails is up to the members of the
community, not the moderators. We will do our best to manage the file
on an ad hoc basis, but formal policy decisions are made by the members
of the community through a balloting process. The privilege of voting
is limited to those members registered in notestrings 2.* or 7.*.
Where the voting reveals a division of opinion by sex, the views of the
women will prevail. We will enforce whatever decisions are taken in
this way by the community.
|
| 1.3 | Some guidelines | MEWVAX::AUGUSTINE | | Tue Jan 26 1988 17:57 | 35 |
|
In this file, we encourage respectful discussion. It's certainly
reasonable not to like everything you read. Occasionally, you may
feel offended by something you read here. You may even be inspired
to write an attacking note in reply, but that approach quickly
leads to name-calling and counter-attacks. Instead, please follow
these guidelines when deciding what to do:
1) Think about whether the author intended something else.
Is there an alternate interpretation for what you read?
If you knew that the author was having a bad day or that
English is not their native tongue, would you feel differently?
Do you object to the author's style or to the content of the
note?
2) Do a reality check.
Are you feeling extra sensitive? Would you still feel offended
after waiting 24 hours? Ask a friend or two whether they're
offended by the same material.
3) Contact the author.
Send mail to the author. One way to avoid putting the author on
the defensive is to explain how their note made you feel. Also
describe what you want the author to do. Come to a mutually
acceptable resolution.
4) Contact the moderators.
Explain why you feel offended, what steps you've taken, and what
action you'd like us to take. We will try to respond in a timely
manner.
Bonnie, Holly, Liz & Maggie
|
| 1.4 | A dialog | STUBBI::B_REINKE | where the sidewalk ends | Wed Jan 27 1988 10:31 | 239 |
|
The following dialog (reconstructed from the actual exchange in
621.*) took place recently between two members of our community, a
woman and a man. The man, like many of our male contributors, felt
frustrated by the amount of anger his (and other men's) contribu-
tions to the file have often generated.
We do not wish to single out the personalities involved in this
exchange -- rather we find that the specific replies are extremely
well written and illustrate a general problem which crops up quite
often between male and female members of this file.
While the dialog is long, her replies eloquently explain the source
and reason for much of women's anger, and why many of us choose to
express that anger. She also reminds all of us why generalizations
should be avoided or used only very carefully; that speaking from
personal experiance is a much more effective way to communicate
here.
If you find yourself unhappy with the often intensely expressed rage
of one or another of our contributors, this woman's words may be
helpful for you.
Passages preceded by "W" are her words; those preceded by "M" are
his. Material in brackets [] has been modified by your friendly
editors for clarity, or added as a comment on what we find to be the
importance of the next exchange. Minor spelling and grammatical
corrections have been made and are not noted.
We should note that all the people who have edited this dialog are
women, and so our editing probably reflects _our_ idea of what is
important in what has been said here. We have checked with both
authors for permission to post this, but we also recognize that the
following reflects several _women's_ interpretation, which may or
may not be different from several _men's_ interpretation (or other
women's, for that matter).
--------------------------------------------------------------------
-< set tone low-key for the following... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------
[SUBJECT: Feminist's oversensitivity to words]
W=� 'You ladies' is an offensive way to refer to us.
M-> But on the other side, it is an example of how you perceive things
and how little it takes to get you into a defensive mode. Why are
you [...] so quick to [become defensive]? This is a perfect example
of what I've been trying to point out [...]
W=� For you, "ladies" may seem like a nice, genteel way to refer to adult
females. Many of us have asked over and over again to be referred to
as women. Women is a more inclusive term than ladies when referring to
employed adult females. I appreciate your intention, as stated, to be
inclusive. For me, the effect is just the opposite. I would *never*
refer to myself or the women in my group as ladies.
W=� Most of the men I know at work would prefer to be called "men" than
"gentlemen". Men is more inclusive, and just more comfortable I
guess.
[SUBJECT: Why attack me and the men here when we are on _your_ side?]
M-> Why is it that I am accorded the same treatment as some
street hood or bad person from your past when I am someone
totally different from those people?
W=� I totally ignore street hoods, and I try never to have contact with
abusive people in my past. Some of the things you said earlier made
me want to spend a couple of hours this morning thinking out some
fairly thoughtful responses, thus causing me to still be in my
office working tonight. There's a world of difference! I'm choosing
to put a fair amount of energy and some personal time into
communicating with you [something I would not do if I thought you
were some street hood]. I'm not screaming, flaming or arguing, just
thinking and listening and responding.
[SUBJECT: Why do you want to exclude men from some subjects?]
M-> I never claimed I have experienced "woman" things. But I am human,
and in being so, I feel that I can relate my experiences on the same
subject of things that happen to us all.
W=� I agree with you. There are lots of things I would enjoy discussing
with you if I can manage to convey the right body language. (Mostly
calm and thoughtful...) There are a few topics I would like to
discuss just with other women. Examples of these might be how long
different kinds of tampons last, how I felt when I was sexually
abused at age 3, how I felt when I was almost raped and strangled,
how it feels when men do things that make me feel trivialized. (I'm
speaking only for myself here, not for the other women in this
file.)
W=� If I even choose to discuss it here, I do so knowing that I've just
opened it up to a large group of readers. OK. You may or may not
have something you are very eager to say to me about one of the
above personal/sensitive topics. What I need is to discuss some of
the sensitive personal things with the women first. By ourselves,
without having men say much until we've heard from each other. After
that, I might be ready and interested in hearing all the opinions.
And that's why I've been suggesting general discussion strings in
tandem with occasional FWO note. Everyone who has something to say
can respond as many times as they like. The women who are needing
to think through something sensitive with the support of other women
can do that as long as they need to and read the other responses
when they are ready to. (I hope this is the "win/win" I have been
looking for.)
[SUBJECT: It isn't fair to attack men _simply_ because they are men.
Why can't you afford men the same treatment as you do the
women who contribute?]
M-> What I do have a problem with is those that have that anger at me
simply because I am a man.
W=� There are some women who will be angry at you just because you are
a man, that's true. There are others who will be angry at you if
you engage in specific behaviors which have been directed at them
by men before and which hurt.
W=� The only parallel I can draw to empathize is that some black people
will be angry at me just because I'm a WASP (by birth, anyway...).
When I think about it, I can understand that because being born into
a WASP family in the 1950s ensured that certain privileges and
opportunities would come to me very easily. I don't like that anger
when it's focused at me, either, but I respect it. I haven't walked
in their shoes. And there are probably other black people who won't
begin by being angry at me, but if I engage in certain behaviors
which they associate with abusive white people they will become
furious.
[SUBJECT: Women's anger will eat them up if they let it. You need to
_let_go_ of that anger, not harbor it and let it fester
inside of you.]
W=� [...] I never intend to gloss over my anger again.
W=� If something makes me angry and I stuff it down inside myself and
don't say anything, there are consequences. If I keep current with
my anger and acknowledge it, I walk around feeling pretty light.
Does that seem like a contradiction?
W=� I stuffed the anger for years, and tried to please people and to
gain the approval of others. I rarely showed anger to anyone in a
position of power because I was scared of getting hurt. On the
surface I seemed sweet and nice, but on the inside I was seething.
I *never* want to live that way again. It looked and felt pretty
good to the adults around me, but I was a wreck inside.
M-> Is anger the only way you can derive power? Are you really happy
and comfortable living with that anger ? If so, you've chosen a
tough way to live. I know about that anger, I still have traces of
it ... It took me some time to control it, push it aside, to replace
it with more important things in my personal agenda...
W=� I feel pretty good most days now. Some days I go home and cry.
Other days I get a friend to give me some support when I've gotten
dumped on. Once I get the anger out and get some support, I feel
better and am able to plan how to approach the person who upset me
and resolve the situation. I don't walk around seething...I think my
last performance review said something about being full of cheerful
enthusiasm all the time.
W=� But I couldn't be cheerful and enthusiastic unless I could process
the angry feelings when they happen. And they will happen again. I
hope I will be able to keep working with them and letting them out
when they do.
[SUBJECT: Speaking/writing styles and more on anger]
M-> To quote some truths about anger, those [who] live by it, shall die
by it [...] all that anger will burn you up. In short, it is not
healthy to live with it as a priority in your life. If you are
convinced that anger is [one's] the sole source of power in life,
you are sadly mistaken. Belief in oneself generates an inner power
that no one can take away. That inner power can give you the
confidence to go out and do anything you wish. It is the basis from
which all other power is derived.
W=� This paragraph is harder to read and respond to than the previous
one because it feels like you've stopped speaking for yourself,
started generalizing, and would like to tell me how to be... It's
much, much easier for me to listen attentively when the
writer/speaker says "I" rather than "you".
W=� It seems like it's very important to you to have some of the women
in this file acknowledge that you've been hurt by women. I believe
it. (I've been hurt by some women, too.) Does it seem like some of
us are saying that women are incapable of hurting others?
M-> How many times have you pre-judged a person or situation before word
one? Think about it for a second, did you really give that guy the
benefit of the doubt? Is this person rendering an opinion or telling
you what to do? What I sense, is that you, as so many others in this
file, go to auto defense mode and on the offensive before you really
determine whether the statements are [an attack] or an opinion.
W=� The above paragraph doesn't feel like you are talking to me. I
don't know if you feel like you have a sense of me as an individual
or not from reading the entries I've made in this file. I listen a
lot, write very carefully, and don't respond when I'm actively
angry. (I believe I have one of the lowest flame quotients of the
active participants). It feels like instead of talking to me you are
responding in your mind to a woman or women who have hurt you and
shut you out.
[SUBJECT: Back to women's anger]
M-> ...I can't understand the continued and nurtured anger. It's as if
you've developed an attitude: let's do it to them before they can do
it to us, no man is trustworthy, [he is automatically] guilty by
association until he proves his worth. What an incredibly
frightening [attitude].
W=� I can't relate to that statement much at all. I couldn't work here
at DEC if I felt that way. I work with a number of men whom I enjoy
and have good relationships with. I sort of doubt that the median
male salaries in the group are anywhere near the median female
salaries in the group, which is disconcerting, but other than that
the relationships among us are good.
W=� The only time in my life I really felt the way you describe was the
year I was coming to terms with having been sexually abused as a
child. I began to understand my lifelong fear of men, and of medical
people (the abuse was in the hospital). Years of pent up rage were
coming out, and I warned most of my male friends that I didn't have
much of a sense of humor at that time in my life. I absolutely
would not have participated in this file at that time because I felt
like a volcano going off at the slightest provocation. But that
was several years ago and lasted for about one year.
W=� But it sounds like that's what you think I do now...
W=� I wish we had some smiley-face type icons to convey thoughtful,
reflective, and listening carefully. This whole response is written
in a very calm tone, and I hope it comes across to you as such.
|
| 1.5 | In search of a win/win | SUPER::HENDRICKS | The only way out is through | Wed Jan 27 1988 13:27 | 33 |
|
For the next 3 months (Feb. 1 to May 1, 1988), we would like to try an
experiment. Women may enter basenotes for women only as long as they
create a second note immediately following the FWO note entitled
"General Discussion of <topic>". Please make sure that the FWO note
has FWO in the title to avoid confusion when replying.
Women may reply to the FWO note. Men and women may use the following
note to discuss anything related to the original topic. If men
respond in the FWO string, their notes will be moved to the general
discussion string. (If a man wants to start a FWO note,
please contact one of the moderators to discuss it.)
All notes may, of course, be read by all conference participants.
We ask that during this 3 month trial period all participants refrain
from discussing the merits of FWO notes, and instead observe the
results of the experiment. The moderators will delete notes discussing
the pros and cons of FWO notes during this trial period.
After May 1, we will solicit feedback from all participants and
decide whether the experiment was a good model for future policy
or not through a vote from registered members.
Liz Augustine
Holly Hendricks
Bonnie Reinke
Maggie Tarbet
co-moderators
* The term 'string' is used here to mean a sequential group of replies.
|
| 1.6 | Sensitivity and Support | MEWVAX::AUGUSTINE | | Sat Feb 13 1988 21:55 | 29 |
|
In general, we encourage all types of discussions here. However, some
notes need to be answered with tenderness, sensitivity and support. At
those times, judgement and nit-picking are inappropriate.
When you start a new topic that you are particularly sensitive about,
please let other noters know what type of response you want, and be as
specific as you can. For example, say something like:
. I need support only right now
. Supportive responses only please
. I would like support and also welcome discussion pro and con
. I'd like feedback from other noters
. All responses welcome
. I need support and also welcome supportive questions
We, the moderators, expect all noters to comply with these requests.
Next time you see a note that starts something like:
. I'm having trouble with...
. I'm at the end of my rope...
. I have a deeply painful problem...
Please stop, think and feel. In a similar situation, how would you
feel? What kind of response would you want? What kind of response has
been asked for? How can you be most helpful to this person? Will you
feel proud of your response?
Thank you
Bonnie, Holly, Liz & Maggie
|
| 1.7 | Hot Button Response | VIKING::TARBET | Clorty Auld Besom | Wed Feb 24 1988 15:50 | 11 |
| Sandy's poem was set hidden because of an objection conveyed to us by
another member of our community. It is a corporate requirement that we
respond promptly to any complaints made by reputable individuals, and
we have always tried to adhere to the spirit of that requirement. Such
a problem can be resolved in a number of ways, including unhiding the
entry if the author convinces us that there is no legitimate issue or
the offended party withdraws the complaint. That did not happen in
this case [and, speaking personally, I regret that].
in Sisterhood,
=maggie
|
| 1.8 | respond to issues rather than calling names | DANUBE::B_REINKE | where the sidewalk ends | Sat Feb 27 1988 17:05 | 11 |
|
As a moderator I would like to remind the community that it
is possible to disagree with another noter without falling to
the level of name calling and being insulting. No matter how
much you disagree with another person please try to avoid
ad hominem attacks.
Thankyou
Bonnie Jeanne
moderator
|
| 1.9 | Hall Of Fame: 762.* | MOSAIC::TARBET | | Tue Mar 15 1988 14:21 | 13 |
| Mike Carleton (MJC) has started a "Womannotes Hall Of Fame" in 762.*,
the goal of which is to mark particularly significant contributions so
that new members of our community won't have to choose between spending
the next two years reading through the file or missing some of the
stuff that makes us the live, warm, caring, tough community that we
are.
We're coming up on our second anniversary, and if we archive this file
and restart, I for one think it would be lovely if we had a set of
pointers that we could carry across with us to our new home.
in Sisterhood,
=maggie
|
| 1.10 | Please don't forget? | MOSAIC::TARBET | | Mon May 09 1988 20:39 | 10 |
| Please change your pointers so that you're all ready to go at the
end of May:
MOD EN YourNameForTheFile/F=MOSAIC::WOMANNOTES
Or you can use RAINBO:: instead of MOSAIC::, but be sure you don't
have it pointing at either COLORS:: or <snif> VIKING:: because they're
going to go away when we switch to the 8800s!
=maggie
|
| 1.11 | HARDWARE CHANGE | VIKING::TARBET | | Wed Jun 01 1988 15:34 | 11 |
| I'm told by our sysfolks that we're switching to the new hardware (2
8800s --mosaic and rainbo-- rather than the current 4 78Xs) over this
coming weekend. The whole cluster will be brought down friday evening
at close of business (5 pm EST) and not come up again until monday
morning at 8 am EST.
Please do be sure that your pointer to the file doesn't include
a reference to either viking or colors, as those nodenames will
be going away this weekend.
=maggie
|
| 1.12 | If MOSAIC:: isn't working well, try RAINBO:: | MOSAIC::TARBET | | Mon Jun 27 1988 11:06 | 10 |
| We have now completed the switch to the new file, and this one is
now an archive.
The new file can be added to your notebook by typing
ADD ENTRY vol2/FILE=MOSAIC::WOMANNOTES-V2
Please note that the filename contains a dash, not an underline.
=maggie
|