Conference yukon::christian_v7

    
    Maybe that explains the words I saw on an independent Baptist Church
    sign this morning, "Jesus is returning very, very soon, are you ready
    to meet him?"
    
    jeff

  gotta love them independant Baptists!  We sing a chorus in ours:

 Behold He comes
 And every eye shall see Him
 Friend will you be ready
 When Jesus comes.




 

> Instead the Lord spoke to him very clearly, and said, "I WANT YOU TO GO AND 
>GET YOUR FAMILY READY TO MEET ME." Then He said, "GO AND TELL THE WHOLE WORLD
>THAT I AM COMING BACK FOR MY CHILDREN BEFORE THE YEAR 2000," (emphasis
>supplied).  The message was clear and without question. 

Wait a minute.  Before replying with words of encouragement and praise, a
question needs to be asked:

Is this a true prophecy or a false prophecy?  Consequentially, is this man
a true prophet or a false prophet?

I would think that some additional investigation and discernment is needed to
find out whether this claim to having received special revelation from God
can be substantiated.

    I don't know if he is true or not, but I like the message.  :-)
    

    
    Hi Garth,
    
     Good point, although it's difficult to prove at this time. If we're
    all gone by the year 2000, then it is a true prophecy. If we're here on
    January 1, 2000, then he is a false prohpet, and we should stone him to
    death. Oh sorry, that's OT. If he is found to be incorrect, we should
    forgive him, and keep hoping Jesus comes soon thereafter.
    
    Should someone live in the Orlando area, the number for Jim Bramlett is
    (407)380.5950. He might be David's representative, or agent.
    
    Shalom,
    
    Bob

 On a serious note, I believe one should steer clear of anyone
 ascribing a date, or even time period to the return of Christ.
 
 I am skeptical of things such as .0 (not directed at you, Bob).
 



 Jim

    
    Thanks for saying that...I'm a sensitive kinda guy. 8-) Must be the
    little kid in me?
    
    No man knows the day, or the hour...however, we can see the season of
    harvest is at hand, and the time is shorter than it was yesterday.
    
    Maranatha, at the appointed time. Until then, OCCUPY!!!
    
    Bob

      I think that until one is perfected in character, one will 
      manifest both sin and righteousness.
    
      I tend to believe that this man was truly converted in a 
      big way (AMEN!) and also that his prophesy was not of the
      Lord.
     
      Maybe I'm wrong, but that is what I tend to believe.
    
    						Tony

    Hi Tony,
    
     Interesting thoughta there. Do you think it possible for anyone on
    earth to be perfected in character, or will this only happen once we
    get to heaven?
    
     One person I shared the story with thought he may have been having a
    hallucination, due to the diminishing oxygen in the cave. It could be
    that, or it could be a spiritual reality. Only God knows for sure.
    
    Shalom,
    
    Bob

      Hi Bob,
    
        Oh sure, I think its possible one can be perfected in character
        on earth.  The purpose of the cross I keep seeing is to lead
        people to no longer live for themselves but for He who died for
        them and rose again.
    
        I wouldn't want to insist that the cross lacks the power to
        perfectly transform our characters.
    
        As far as I'm concerned, all of this hinges on whether or not
        a person gets to the point of seeing enough of the cross.
    
        The message of the cross is the power of God unto salvation.  It
        just remains for the eye of faith to see this power more clearly.
    
    						Tony

    re: date setting
    
    We are commanded to know the signs and season.  When someone says,
    "Christ will return before the year 2000" this sounds more like a
    season than a date setting.  Personally, I've always thought that I
    would be surprised if we are still here after the year 2000.
    
    Mike

 re .12


 I tend to agree wrt not being here by 2000






 even so, come Lord Jesus.

    .12
    
    I'll add my nod to that.  My own *personal* feelings, FWIW (and
    probably not very much).  8^)
    
    
    -steve

    prepare yourself for 'post'
    pray for 'pre'
    but know that the Lord God is in control, and that it will all 'pan'
    out in the end

    Just by the fact that you believe Christ could return today says that
    you cannot be a post-tribber.  If you are a post-tribber and believe
    Christ could return today, you've just contradicted yourself.
    
    Mike

Re: .16  (Mike Heiser)

>                             -< food for thought >-
>
>    Just by the fact that you believe Christ could return today says that
>    you cannot be a post-tribber.  If you are a post-tribber and believe
>    Christ could return today, you've just contradicted yourself.
    
Mike is right, and this is a very important point.  As the scripture says
in Matt 24:

    "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out;
or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.  For as lightning 
that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of
the Son of Man.  Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
    "Immediately after the distress of those days, 

                     'the sun will be darkened,
                      and the moon will not give its light;
                      the stars will fall from the sky,
                      and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

    "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all
the nations of the earth will mourn.  They will see the Son of Man coming on
the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.  And he will send his 
angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the
four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

And 1 Thess 4:15 says:

    According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are alive, who
are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have
fallen asleep.  For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud
command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and
the dead in Christ will rise first.  After that, we who are still alive and are
left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the
air.

    The sad part is the neglect of the Bible's exhortation of the 
    "Blessed Hope" when people claim that Christ couldn't return today.

Re: .18  (Mike Heiser)

>    The sad part is the neglect of the Bible's exhortation of the 
>    "Blessed Hope" when people claim that Christ couldn't return today.

Christ can "return today."  Go jump in front of a Mack truck and you will
find out how fast Christ can "return today".

So now, go tell them to be ready, or else Christ will come at a day and hour
when they least expect it. 

    There's no "Blessed Hope" in that interpretation.

    
    If I may interject, it is my current understanding we are to conduct
    our behavior AS IF Jesus was to return, so to be READY when He does.
    
    Blessed are those who are doing His will at the time of His return.
    
    Praying for HIs will to be done, both in, and through the individual's
    life should be sufficient for this to be the case, and you will be
    ready to go. And as someone once wrote in a song (was it Barry McGuire
    again?) grab onto one unsaved person with each hand on the way up. 8-)
    
    Bob

Re: .20  (Mike Heiser)

>    There's no "Blessed Hope" in that interpretation.

Maybe I have misunderstood you.  You said in .18,

>    The sad part is the neglect of the Bible's exhortation of the 
>    "Blessed Hope" when people claim that Christ couldn't return today.

I assume that you are referring to Titus 2:13, which says,

    "...while we wait for the blessed hope -- the glorious appearing of
    our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ."

If I claim that Christ won't return today, because certain things have to
happen first, how am I neglecting "the Bible's exhortation of the 'Blessed
Hope'"?  

I'm just trying to understand what you are trying to convey here, and not
necessarily trying to start another debate in this reply.

Thanks.

|If I claim that Christ won't return today, because certain things have to
|happen first, how am I neglecting "the Bible's exhortation of the 'Blessed
|Hope'"?  
    
    Maybe not you specifically, Garth, because I don't know where you stand
    with Christ (though I don't doubt your salvation).  I think there are a 
    few problems with this position.  One danger is apathy.  Of all the
    Christians in the world, it seems that there is more disillusionment
    than ever with the Rapture and Second Coming of Christ.  Christians
    don't look to it or discuss it as much as they used to.  The world
    ridicules such beliefs.  Christ promised in John 14:1-3 that He will
    come again!  I think Christians should greatly anticipate His return
    daily!  There's a lost world out there and we shouldn't be apathetic
    about the Great Commission or about His return.  We can't be apathetic
    just because we believe that the tribulation has to happen first.
    
    Another is that it limits God.  If the great Biblical scholars of
    history can't agree on pre or post, there are obviously contradictions
    that the Holy Spirit hasn't revealed to us yet.  To say that Christ
    couldn't return today because you are on either side of an endless debate
    ignores the fact that we should be looking to and anticipating His
    return always.  As in the parable of the 10 virgins (Matt. 25), we are
    to be ready for we do not know the day or hour.  We don't know when
    He's coming so we can't say He can't come today just because we don't
    accept the models or types in scripture.  
    
    The last one I can think of is that you take the hope out of the 
    "Blessed Hope."  The Gospel of Jesus Christ and the salvation He offers
    is a message of hope from the cross all the way to the Rapture and
    Second Coming.  Our hope is in Him for our salvation as well as for our
    eternal life with the Father.  The scriptures also declare that we
    as Christians aren't destined to God's wrath, but are His children. 
    As Harry said, we need to pray for pre and prepare for post, but 
    there is no love and hope in the message of post.  It doesn't quite
    fit the model of Agape displayed on the cross and doesn't really
    minister to the child of God or to the lost.
    
    Mike

Re: .23  (Mike Heiser)

I think most of what you said in .23 is very well put.  We cannot and must
not lose sight of our responsibility to the great commission we have been
given to reach a lost and dying world.

My remark in .19 was a bit quip, but what I was trying to get across is
that it doesn't matter whether you believe pre- or post- or anything else.
The fact that today could be the last day of your life brings a sense of
urgency to "be ready".  Our days are numbered, and none of us knows the day
or the hour when our time will be up for this short life on earth.  Praise
God that those who have trusted Jesus *are* ready, for it is by grace we
are saved through faith, and not of ourselves.

As you might expect, I take issue with your final comment:

>    As Harry said, we need to pray for pre and prepare for post, but 
>    there is no love and hope in the message of post.  It doesn't quite
>    fit the model of Agape displayed on the cross and doesn't really
>    minister to the child of God or to the lost.
    
I have dealt with this exhaustively in topic 644.*, in challenging you to
examine your presuppositions, such as the notion that tribulation=wrath.
To my challenges you have given no answer.

The "model of Agape" is that Jesus died to pay the penalty for our sins, saving
us from the condemnation that we deserve.  We trust in the "Blessed Hope",
regardless of the tribulation that we may be subject to in our short lives here
on earth. 

There is "love" and there is "hope" that transcends times of trouble, whether
they be worldwide in scope or on an individual basis.  We must keep our eyes
on Jesus, not on ourselves and the things of this world.