Conference yukon::christian_v7

906.0. "Islamic arguments against Christianity: Discuss ?" by OSITEL::BRITTAIN (Peter, TOEM support Munich @RTO 865-3102) Wed Jul 24 1996 15:43

Dear Christians,

I copied the following extract out of the back (front ;-) of an
English translation of the Qu'ran (Koran). Anyone who has talked to
Muslims about the Christian faith knows how frustrating an experience
this can be. This article is interesting, I think, because it gives
insight into the psyche of an educated Muslim, and why he sincerely
believes Christianity to be wrong.

Perhaps it would be an equally interesting group excercise to put
together a (polite) reply to Dr Al-Halali ?


Islamic Belief about Jesus (in a nutshell, and to the best of my knowledge).


        Accepted:
                The historical fact of Jesus
                The Virgin Birth
                That Jesus will return at the end of the world to
                  judge the living and the dead
                The bodily Ascension of Jesus into heaven

        Rejected:
                
                The DIVINITY of Jesus: Muslims believe Him to have
                been the (perhaps greatest) prophet after Muhammad,
                but ONLY a prophet.

                The CRUCIFIXION: As far as I can tell, they believe
                that someone who looked like Jesus was crucified in
                His place.


Article starts here ------------------------------------------

Biblical evidence of Jesus's being a servant of God and having no
share in divinity

Dr M.T.Al-Halali, Ph.D.  Professor of Islamic Faith and Teachings,
Islamic University, Al Madina (rendered into English by Adam M.Makda)


JESUS AND THE DEVIL IN THE BIBLE.


MAT 4: 

The Devil carries the Messiah and took him from place to place. How
can the Devil carry God ? Glory be to Allah, he is above such
blasphemy!

The devil orders Jesus to prostrate before him and worship him, even
tempting him with worldly possessions.  How can the devil dare such an
audacity with God?

CHILDREN OF GOD

Jesus never called himself Son of God as far as I know - but he used
to call himself the 'Son of Man' Mar 2:10.  According to the Biblical
term in OT and NT every God-fearing person is called 'Son of God'.
Mat 5:9,45,48 6:1

GOD THE FATHER

The term Father is used for God in numerous places in the Bible. It is
never used exclusively for the Messiah (Jesus)

JESUS THE WORSHIPPER

Mat 14:23

I say: If Jesus is God or a part of God then why did he pray? In fact,
prayer is always from a submitting, needy and dependent one for the
mercy of Almighty Allah

The story of the Canaan woman Mat 15:22-28

1: Lack of mercy and love charged against Jesus
2: Degraded discrimination in regard to the uplifting of his tribe and
   not for others
3: Tribal pride of decendance and prejudice against others and calling
   them dogs
4: An ignorant polytheist woman debated with him and won him over

Jesus: a prophet of Allah

Mat 19:16-17 

    And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good
    thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?  And he said unto
    him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that
    is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


In the above verses we note this acknowledge to Allah's will


MAT 21:46  

    But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the
    multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

Here it is proved that all those who believed in Jesus during his
lifetime did not believe in him being God or the son of God, or one in
the doctrine of the trinity. but they believed in him as being a
prophet only.  This is indeed one of the strongest points of evidence
against those who believe in the divinity of Jesus (Incarnation of God)
if only they pondered.


JESUS: A SERVANT OF ALLAH


MAT 23:8  

    But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ;
    and all ye are brethren.
    
Here it is clearly proven that Jesus was a servant of Allah, and that
there is only one master and he is Allah.


Mat 23:9 
   
    MAT 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is
    your Father, which is in heaven.


From this you will note that fatherhood and sonship is meant to be the
relationship between the Lord and his servants: it is meant in a
general sense and not specifically for Jesus.


MAT 24:36  
    
    But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of
    heaven , but my Father only.

This is definite proof that the Final Hour is unknown to any but
Allah, thus Jesus's knowledge is imperfect like all other men; Allah
alone is All-Knowing, Omniscient.

Mat 26:39

    MAT 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and
    prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass
    from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

We note here that the person speaking is unaware of Allah's will and
realizes the fact that he is a servant of Allah.  He (Allah) alone can
cause the change.


THE COMPILATION OF THE BIBLE

Mat 27:7-8

    And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to
    bury strangers in.  Wherefore that field was called, The field of
    blood, unto this day.

From these verses we understand that the Bible (NT) was not written
during Jesus's lifetime but long after the occurrence of the events
described, having been retained in the memory of the people.


Mat 27:46

    And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,
    Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why
    hast thou forsaken me ?

This is according to their (Christians' ) assumption that Jesus cried
out in a loud voice saying the above words while he was being
crucified.  this is a great insult as such words could only come from
unbelievers in Allah. Further it is is incredible that such words
should come from a prophet of Allah because Allah never breaks his
promise and his prophets never complained against his prophets.


JESUS: PREACHER OF MONOTHEISM

JOH 17:3

    And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true
    God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

MAR 12:28-31

    And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning
    together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked
    him, Which is the first commandment of all?  And Jesus answered
    him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The
    Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God
    with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind,
    and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.  And
    the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as
    thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.  


In these verses Jesus (peace be upon him) himself had testified that
Allah is the One God, there is none other than him and whoever
believes in His Oneness he is near the Kingdom of Allah. Therefore
whoever associates partners with Allah or believes in the TRINITY is
far away from the kingdom of Allah, and whoever is far away from the
Kingdom of Allah he is the enemy of Allah.

Mat 24:36

     But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of
     heaven, but my Father only.

A similar text was quoted from St Matthew which is exactly as
proclaimed by the Qur'an in that none knows when the hour will come
except Allah.  This establishes the fact that Jesus was subservient to
Allah and that he had no share in divinity.  that he was an
incarnation of God, was an innovation by the people of Canaan.


JOH 20:16-17

    Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto
    him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.  Jesus saith unto her,
    Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my
    brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your
    Father; and to my God, and your God.
  

In the above narrative Jesus clearly testified that Allah is his God
and their God, making no difference between him and them in worship of
the one Allah.  Whoever believes that Jesus is God has indeed
blasphemed against God and betrayed the Messiah (Jesus) and all the
prophets and Messengers of Allah.


BIBLICAL PROPHECY OF THE ADVENT OF MUHAMMAD

JOH 14:15-16

    If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father,
    and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with
    you for ever;
 
JOH 15: 26-27

    But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the
    Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the
    Father, he shall testify of me:

JOH 16:5-8,12-14,16

Muslim theologians have stated that the person who is described by
Jesus to come after him (Comforter/Spirit of truth) does not comply
with any other person but Mohammad the Messenger of Allah. The person
whom Jesus prophesied will come after him is called in the Bible
'Parqaleeta'.  This word was deleted by later interpreters and
translators and changed at times to 'Spirit of truth' and at other
times to 'Comforter' and sometimes to ;Holy Spirit'.  The original
word is Greek and its meaning is 'on whom people praise exceedingly.'
this sense of the word is applicable to the word 'Muhammad' in Arabic.

Finality on proofs on the fabrication of the story of the cross

1: The Bible testifies to the fact that Jesus was known among the
   Jews; he used to preach and deliver sermons in the temple of
   Solomon in Jerusalem.  It was therefore unnecessary to hire a Jew
   for thirty pieces of silver to direct them to him as related in St
   Matthew

2: It is related that one of the 12 disciples named Judas Iscariot was
   hired to direct the Jews to Jesus.  They then sentenced him after
   which Judas was greatly ashamed and dissociated himself from their
   act and then committed suicide. All this took place within
   24hours. The contradictions are obvious.

3: the clearest proof which alone is sufficient to discredit this
   story is when the Jews passed the sentence of death against Jesus
   and intended to get the approval of the governor, Pontius Pilate.

Mat 27:11-14

     And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him,
     saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him,
     Thou sayest. And when he was accused of the chief priests and
     elders, he answered nothing. Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest
     thou not how many things they witness against thee? And he
     answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor
     marvelled greatly.
   

The Christians will interpret the above verse to mean that Jesus
wanted to die on the cross for the redemption of mankind, and for the
forgiveness of their sins.  if so, then why did he ask to turn away
that cup from him (i.e. death)?  Why did he cry out on the cross (as
they assume) "O Lord, why hast thou forsaken me?" How could he have
remained silent when the truth was being challenged? He was known for
his soul inspiring sermons, challenging the learned Jewish Rabbis. No
sane person can believe in this.  If the story of the cross is
disproved then the very foundation on which Christianity is based,
will be demolished.

Muslims believe that Jesus was not crucified by the Jews as revealed
in the Holy Qur'an by Allah in a Crystal clear manner V.4:157,158.-

"And because of their saying (in boast): 'We killed Messiah Jesus, son
of Mary, the Messenger of Allah'; - but they killed him not, nor
crucified him, but the resemblance of Jesus was put over another man
(and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of
doubts.  They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but
conjecture . for surely they killed him not (i.e. Jesus, son of
Mary). But Allah raised him (Jesus) up (with his body and soul) unto
Himself and he is in the heavens. .."


The Jews themselves, together with the entire Christian world believe
that he was crucified. As proofs against their views and to prove the
truth of the Muslim verdict through the Bible, I prepared the
following list of questions based on the book of S.Matthew in the NT
Chapters 26&27.

1: Did those who captured Jesus (according to their assumption) know
   him in person? or did they not know him?

   S.Matthew testifies that they did not know him

2. Was it during the day or night that he was captured 

   S.Matthew says it was during the night

3. Who was the one that directed them to him?

   S.Matthew says: He was one of the 12 disciples called Judas ISCARIOT.

4. did he direct them free of charge or for a fixed reward ?

   S. Matthew says: He directed them to him for a fixed reward of 30
   pieces of silver.

5. What was the condition of Jesus during the night.

   S.Matthew says: He was fearful and prostrated in prayer saying. "O
   God, if it is possible for You to let this cup pass from me, then
   let it pass."  It is incredible that such words could come from a
   believer in God, let alone a prophet, because all believers believe
   that God has power over all things.

6. What was the condition of his 11 disciples ?

   S.Matthew says: Sleep overcame them that night together with their
   teacher (according to their assumption) out of fear.

7. Was Jesus contented with their condition?

   S.Matthew says (v40-46) that Jesus used to come and wake
   them... then he would come again wake them up and say the same
   thing. This weakness could not have been spoken of righteous
   pupils, even if they were the pupils of an ordinary pious teacher,
   let alone the disciples of Jesus, son of Mary.

8. Did they help him when those ruffians captured him ?

   S.M says they forsook him and fled

9 Did Jesus have confidence in his disciples that night ?

   S.M says Jesus informed them that they will all forsake
   him. ... And so it happened.

10 How did those ruffians capture him ?

   With swords and staves after they were directed to him by a Jew
   ... led him away to Caiaphas where the elders were assembled. There
   they passed sentence on him. The ruffians then took him away, spat
   on his face and struck him with their hands ... they severely
   degraded him.

11 Who finally decided to pass the death sentence against him ?

   ...Pontius Pilate...

12 ...did Pilate believe them without investigation

   S.M says: He did not believe them but asked that man "is it true
   what they have said?" He remained silent. The question was repeated
   and he continued to remain silent. he remained silent in view of
   the truth; it was essential for him even if he was not a prophet to
   clarify the truth and deny the false accusation of the Jews...
   The Bible states that Jesus delivered lengthy speeches to the Jews
   rebuking and warning them which amounted to defaming them.  Then
   why was he silent that day ? The governors intention for asking was
   to stand for the truth.

13 How was he crucified, according to their assumption ?

   S.Matthew says: They crucified him between 2 thieves, both of whom
   abused him saying to him, "If you are truthful then save yourself."

14. This was a great calamity.  What did he say while on the cross
    (according to their assumption)

    Mat 27:46
    And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,
    Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why
    hast thou forsaken me ?  


This is a blatant declaration of disbelief, according to all
theological authorities.  Whoever relates it to a prophet is a
disbeliever according to the revealed religions.


Almighty Allah, in the Qur'an warns the Jews and Christians against
their blasphemy; that Jesus is an incarnation of God or the son of
God, or in rejecting him totally; and that they must believe in him as
a messenger of Allah only.

V.4:159

"And there is none of the people of the Scripture (Jews and
Christians) but must believe in him (Jesus, son of Mary) as only a
messenger of Allah and a human being) before his (Jesus, or a Jew or a
Christian's) death (at the time of the appearance of the angel of
death). And on the Day of Resurrection he (Jesus) will be a witness
against them"

RE: <<< Note 906.0 by OSITEL::BRITTAIN "Peter, TOEM support Munich @RTO 865-3102" >>>
             -< Islamic arguments against Christianity: Discuss ? >-

	Far better minds than mine have provided extensive and convincing
	refutations to the challenge of Islam.

        The Bible quotations used are carefully excised from their context.
        Reminds me of the subtil one in the garden when he asked, "Yea,
        hath God said ..."  One of our adversary's most famous hallmarks is
        to use Scripture out of context.  Satan used scripture out of
        context to try Christ.  The usage of the word "tempt" in
        Elizabethan English is equivalent to the current usage of the words
        "test" or "try".  The exegesis in the preceding note is of little
        scholarly merit, particularly with respect to the "Paraclete." The
        divinity of Christ and the Holy Ghost has been amply established by 
	Scripture and study.

                For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and
                the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name
                shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The
                everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
		-- Isaiah 9:6

	The mighty God.  The Everlasting Father.  Sounds divine to me.

        By their fruits shall ye know them.  Does Islam teach love and
        peace?  Does Islam teach you to pray for your enemies?  Does Islam
        teach that, if you are reviled, you are not to revile again?  Does
        Islam teach that God would have mercy and not sacrifice?  Does
        Islam teach that "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace,
        longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance:
        against such there is no law"?

	I had an opportunity to have an extended conversation with a
	Muslim, for whom I have great admiration and whom I love as a
	brother in our humanity.  At the same time that he was using the
	Bible to establish that Christ was pointing to Muhammed, when he
	was shown the correct exegesis, or other scripture that undermined
	the Muslim understanding of a particular verse, his response was
	that the Bible has been tampered with and corrupted through the
	ages.  I then asked why he used the Bible at all if it was so
	unreliable?  Why not just toss it and forget it?  Why does Islam
	need the Bible, especially the New Testament that they claim is so
	corrupted, to establish Mohammed's authority?  He answered that
	Islam does not need the Bible to establish Mohammed's authority.

	He then pointed out that the Qu'ran has not been altered in any way
	since Mohammed first uttered it.  I cannot establish the veracity
	of this.  However, I did ask if he believed that God could preserve
	His Word, as He claims in the Bible?  He answered in the
	affirmative.  My next question was, "Well, where was God's Word
	before the Qu'ran, and if God's Word was corrupted through the
	ages, why would He wait so so long (600 AD) to straighten it out?"

        Islam also teaches that Abraham was married to Hagar and that
        Ishmael was his legitimate son.  Concerning Ishmael The Bible says
        in Geneis 16:12, "And he will be a wild man; his hand will be
        against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall
        dwell in the presence of all his brethren."  This does not sound
	like a prophecy that Ishmael would be the ancestor of a great
	prophet.

        The Muslim people, by and large, are a people dedicated to pleasing
        God.  Would that we Christians would be as avid to obey the
        commandments of God as are the Muslims!  For this they correctly
        fault us.  As it is written,

                "Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's
                sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto
                governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the
                punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do
                well. For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye
                may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: As free,
                and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness,
                but as the servants of God."
		-- 2nd Peter 2:13-16

        How much more important is it to submit to the ordinances of God,
        if we are to submit to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake?
	Indeed, the word Islam means Submission.

		If ye love me, keep my commandments.
		-- John 14:15

                By this we know that we love the children of God, when we
                love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love
                of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments
                are not grievous.
		-- 1st John 5:2-3

	Christians don't obey to win salvation, but to bear witness to the
	rest of the world and to express their love for and fear of God.

	Indeed we are not given the spirit of fear, to fear men.  But to
	fear God only.  The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

		Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us
		cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and
		spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
			^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
		-- 2nd Corinthians 7:1

	God's peace to all.

	TonyC

    .1:
    
�	He then pointed out that the Qu'ran has not been altered in any way
�    	since Mohammed first uttered it.  I cannot establish the veracity
�	of this.  ...
    
    Strangely (or not?!) an Internet list is discussing this, among other
    things.  Here's a reply to the fellow from Cyprus who asked the
    original question -- note well the part near the bottom, stating
    
�                                          ... Many will dismiss this
�information as Anti-Islam propaganda, but the information is available from
�Islamic text books; they just don't look for it.
    
    
------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Jul 1996 18:04:44 -0700
From:    DaGoose <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Question: Divinity of scriptures

On Fri, 26 Jul 1996, Minos Orphanides wrote:

> A friend of mine is dating a muslim, apparently, and she is keen on the
> Qu'ran.  Lately she told me that muslims know that the Qu'ran is
> divine-inspired because noone on earth could write as such.  Her question

If your friend is trying to convince his girlfriend to convert to Christianity,
he has to understand what Muslims believe, and know what really happend in
history. I hope the following will shed some light on the issue of collecting
the Quran.

After the death of Muhammed, there has been no written manuscript of the
Quran. It has been mainly memorized by some of Muhammed's companions, and
some had portions of it written without any order.

When Muhammed died, several Arab tribes deicded to leave Islam, and the first
Khalif Abu Bakr engaged in a vicious war against them, known as Yamama Battle.
During this battle, many of Muhammed's companions were killed, and with them
lots of the Quran was lost, perhaps forever.

Omar bin al-Khattab (to be the 2nd Khalif) advised Abu Bakr to start an effort
to save what's left of the Quran, and they assigned Zaid Bin Thabet al-Ansari
with this task.

However, lots of the Quran had been lost due to the death of those who
memorized those portions. Ibn Dawud -- one of the historic Islamic scholars
states:

   "Many (of the passages) of the Qur'an that were sent down were known by
   those who died on the day of Yamama... but were not known (by those who)
   survived them, nor were they written down, nor had Abu Bakr, Omar or
   Othman (by that time) collected the Qur'an, nor were they found with even
   one (person) after them". (Ibn Abi Dawud, Kitab-al-Masahif, p23).

When Zaid Bin Thabet finished his task, and collected as much as he could
from the Quran, Abu Bakr hid it from the public, and it kept hidden until his
death. Afterwards, it was handed over to the second Khalif Omar, who kept it
in hidding until his death also. Then it was handed over to Hafsa, Omar's
daughter and one of Muhammed's 12 widows.

During these times, several other people did compile Qurans of their own,
according to their memories, and what they could compile. Some of these
include: Obay Bin Ka'ab, Mu'ath Bin Jabal, Abu Darda, Abdullah Bin Masoud.

Those Qurans were used by people in several provinces in the Islamic Empire.
During the time of Othman (the third Khalif), general Hudthayfa Bin al-Yaman
has lead an expidition in northern Syria, with troops consisting of Muslims
from Syria and Kufa (Iraq). Before long, a dispute happend between the two
groups regarding the reading of the Quran; Muslims of Kufa have been using
the Quran version of Bin Masoud and considered it to be the standard, while
Muslims of Syria have been using the version of Obay Bin Ka'ab and considered
it to be standard.

Huthayfa was distubed, and reported the dispute to the Khalif Othman, who
sent for the manuscript to be brought from Hafsa to be copied. Four Muslims
were assigned to copy the manuscript into several copies: Zaid Bin Thabet,
Abdullah Bin al-Zubair, Sa'ad Bin al-As, and Abdurrahman Bin Harith. Othman
ordered the men to write the Quran using the Quraish dialect only, and if
there should be a dispute with Zaaid Bin Thabet -- who spoke a different
dialect, the Quraish dialect should prevail.

After the copying was done, Othman ordered his governors to burn all other
manuscripts of the Quran, and to use this new "official" Quran.

This is the story of the Quran available today, briefly. It has been changed,
and parts of it lost, and kept in hiding for almost 20 years, until almost all
those who memorized the Quran were dead. Howver, such a topic is not usually
discussed by Muslims. Many are raised to believe like your friend's
girlfriend: Quran is the literal word of God. Many will dismiss this
information as Anti-Islam propaganda, but the information is available from
Islamic text books; they just don't look for it.
    
> is:  How do we know that the Bible is God's word?  To be frank, I sometimes
> wonder about this myself (what a heretic I must be!)  I appreciate your
> feedback,

Wasn't the Bible written in the Church, by the Church, for the Church? I
believe that the actual wording is human wording, but the ideas presented
are inspired by God. In Islam, they believe that not a single word has
been added or removed or altered since the Angel Gabriel dictated the
Quran to Muhammed; which is not what Christians believe.

salam
Loai Said


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