Conference yukon::christian_v7

Some people say that I believe in God is not for any prize.

Some people say that it is God's Grace and strength therefore I should not 
"press on".

Some people say pursuing prize is legalism, wrong motivation, etc...

Some people say that I just want to be a janitor in Heaven, not to rule with 
the King.

re.0

The Prize: The uttermost enjoyment of Christ in the millennial
kingdom as a reward to the victorious runners of the New Testament
age.

regards,
ace

    The prize is found in 2 Corinthians 5:10 and 1 Corinthians 3:14.

      The prize: the character of Jesus Christ in your heart.

    Romans 8:23-24
    Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit,
    groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the
    redemption of our bodies.  For in this hope we were saved.
    
    
    Jill
    

 I think Mike has it in .3




 Jim

    Wayne please come help me out here...
    
    By the way no one tried to answer the questions in .1
    
    
    Jill
    
    

II Corinthians 5:10

	"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that
each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body,
whether good or bad."  (NIV)

I Corinthians 3:14

	"If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward."

    
>    By the way no one tried to answer the questions in .1
    
    
 

   I didn't see a question in .1, but I believe Mike Heiser answered the
   question in .0 with his reply in .3





 Jim    
    

The Greek word used here is BRABEION, a prize bestowed in connection with the
games (from brabeus, an umpire, and brabeuo, to decide, arbitrate, rule).

"Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the
BRABEION? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the
mastery is temperate in all things. Now they <strive> to obtain a corruptible
crown; but we an incorruptible." (1Co.9:24&25)

Here prize is used metaphorically of the reward to be obtained hereafter by
faithful believers.

"But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea
doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge
of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and
do count them dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in Him, not having mine
own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of
Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know Him, and
the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made
conformable unto His death; If by any means I might attain unto the
resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were
already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which
also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have
apprehended: but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind,
and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the
mark for the BRABEION of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us
therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be
otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this to you. Nevertheless, whereto
we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the
same thing. Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk
so as ye have us for an ensample. (For many walk, of whom I have told you
often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the
cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and
whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) For our conversation
is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His
glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all
things unto Himself. Therefore, my brethren dearly beloved and longed for,
my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved." (Ph.3:7-4:1)

Here the context is very important, indicating the position of the goal.  The
prize is not "the high calling," but rather will be given by virtue of, and
in relation to, the heavenly calling which belongs to all believers (see
He.3:1) and directs their thoughts and desires heavenward.  "I have fought a
good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there
is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous
judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also
that love His appearing." (2Ti.4:7&8)

"...let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us,
and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus
the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before Him
endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of
the throne of God. For consider Him that endured such contradiction of sinners
against Himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds." (He.12:1b-3)

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall
be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall
see Him as He is. And every man that hath this hope in Him purifieth himself,
even as He is pure." (1Jn.3:2&3)

So, I see myself not so much striving for as focusing on the BRABEION as the
promised end of the race that God has predestined believers to win.  I don't
seek to win a prize, rather I long for the completion of God's work in me.  The
prize to be bestowed by God is set before me by faith so that I may be purified
as I run.

/Wayne

    yea, what Wayne said.  Thanks Wayne.  You have a way with words.  :-)
    
    
    Jill
    

re.10 (Phillipians)
>  that I may win Christ,
> If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

	Note: should be "out-resurrection".

	These verses show what the reward is. Christ is the reward in the
"out-resurrection", the valdectorian ceremony if I may borrow a secular
example. See .2 for a more succinct explanation.

re.8
II Corinthians 5:10: "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ,
that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body,
whether good or bad."  (NIV)

The judgement seat of Christ is where Christ will judge His believers at His
coming back, not concerning their eternal salvation, but their dispensational
reward. 

I Corinthians 3:14 "If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward."

Reward is based upon the believer's work after being saved. It differs from
salvation, which is based upon faith in the Lord and His redemptive work.


Believing into the Lord Jesus will save you from eternal perdition, however,
it does not guarantee you a reward in the millenial kingdom. Participation
in the ruling, reigning, and enjoyment of the millenial kingdom depends on
your work, deeds, growth in life, and transformation *after* you were saved.

This is the reward spoken of.

Regards,
Ace





 

    The reward is being one with Christ, the rest is secondary and just 
    flows from that.
    
    Jill

re.13

Hi Jill,

In a sense you correct and in another you are not. There's no biblical
substantiation that the reward spoken of in these verses in just our being one
with Christ. We are one with Christ when we believe. Yet the thought in these
verses convey an additional effort, work, deed etc, after believing which when
judged by Christ at His judgement seat will issue in a reward. I can't recall
any verses in the bible that actually tie "reward" to just "believing". But
I'm open to be corrected. 

In another sense I agree with you fully, the reward is our being one with
Christ, yet I would add that it is to a greater degree of oneness, enjoyment,
participation that being a co-king with Christ in His 1000 year reign.

I think the major point is that there will be a Judgement Seat of Christ, it
will occur before the 1000 year reign, and the beleivers will be judged and 
rewarded according to their works and deeds. Now one may argue that reward 
is not important to them, in which case they may take this up with the
Judge at that time. I'm sure He'll understand what you really meant. 8*)


Regards,
Ace

    Hi, Ace.
    
    What is the "crown of righteousness" which shall be given by our Lord to
    all those that "love His appearing?"
    
    /Wayne

re.15

Hi Wayne,

Well a crown (any crown) is a symbol of glory given as a prize to a runner
of a race, or a beauty pagent, or etc. It doesn't go to everyone who ran the
race, just to the top achievers. A crown of righteousness in 2 Tim 4:8 is 
a prize not of grace nor by faith as salvation is (Eph 2:5, 8-9), but of
righteousness through works (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12; 2 Cor 5:10). This reward
will be awarded the believers, not according to the grace of the Lord, but
according to His righteousness. Therefore it is the "crown of righteousness".
The Awarder of it is the Lord as the righteous Judge. Paul was assured that
such a prize was reserved for him (by the time he wrote this epistle near the
end of his ministry before martyrdom) and would be awarded to him at the day
of the Lord's second appearing. 

This reward will be awarded to all those who love His appearing. I think
this "love His appearing" is key. If we think He is coming back to take
us to heaven where we'll live happily ever after in our mansions next door
to Jesus regardless of how we lived our christian life, then of course we 
all will love His appearing. But if we recognize that the Lord is coming
back to Judge every detail of our lives, our living, our behavior, deeds
good, deeds bad,... bear with me a moment... our driving habits, the words
that proceed from our lips, the way we talked to our husbands and wives,
treated our children, the way we spent our time watching TV, movies,
radios,...stay with me....the fruit we have brought forth, our testimony to 
and others and before God, our prayer time, our service to God, etc. etc.
then, though we love Him, we may not love His appearing as the Judge. Paul
loved His appearing because he had been "poured out", but unlike Paul I
cannot say that I have attained the reward yet. The reward is not eternal
salvation, the reward is something in addition to that.

Therefore, the crown of righteousness is a symbol of the reward of glory
that will be awarded to the overcoming believer by the righteous Judge, Christ
at His appearing (or second coming).

Regards,
Ace 

    Ace, thanks for the clarification.  the bema seat judgment of Christ
    isn't to be confused with the great white throne judgment.  You have to
    be saved to stand before the bema seat of Christ.
    
    Mike

    Then what do you make of Ph.3:9?

re.17

Hi Mike,

Exactly. The Judgement Seat (Bema) of Christ is before the millenium and
is for christians. It is conducted "in the air". As you point out, the
Great White Throne Judgement is for all and occurs at the end of the millenium
before eternity future begins and determines eternal status. All believers
will enter into eternal life at the Great White Throne. However, the 
Judgement Seat of Christ determines a dispensational reward only available
to overcoming christians.

Thanks,
Ace

  

re.18

Hi Wayne,
 
>Then what do you make of Ph.3:9?

I believe it!  8*)

But there is more to your question I'm certain. Please clarify. 

Thanks,
Ace

Hi, Ace.

In note .16 you said:

"A crown of righteousness in 2 Tim 4:8 is a prize not of grace nor by faith as
salvation is (Eph 2:5, 8-9), but of righteousness through works (Matt 16:27;
Rev 22:12; 2 Cor 5:10)."

In Ph.3:9 the Apostle Paul said:

"<That I may> be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of
the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which
is of God by faith."

And in Ro.10:4 and 10:

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that
believeth...For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the
mouth confession is made unto salvation."

I'm having trouble squaring what I think you've said with what I think Scripture
says.

/Wayne

re. 21

Hi Wayne,

I think I understand the difficulty you are having squaring this 
conversation.

"Righteousness" like other words in the Bible has more than one application,
though the meaning is essentially the same. "Salvation/saved" is another word
that is applied in multiple ways. For instance, we are saved by grace and we
are told to work our our own salvation by fear and trembling (Phil). There is
no contradiction but a correct understanding of the application that is needed.

I see at least three applications of "righteousness". There are others perhaps
but for this study I'll talk about the three.

1. Righteousness of the law
2. Righteousness which is in and found in Christ (Christ our righteousness)
3. Righteousnesses (no typo) of the saints (Rev 19:8, matt 5:20)

Righteousness of the law is of course trying to satisfy God's requirements
through keeping of the law. Christ as the fulfillment of the law and the
One who satisfies God's righteous requirements has become every believer's
righteousness as regards to our positional objective standing before God.
When God sees you He sees Christ because Christ as our redeemer is the
righteousness of God and we have put Him on, so to speak. Since we have such
a Christ as our robe (ref Luke 15:22 - prodigal son) given to us freely by the
Father, then we can enjoy God as partakers of the sonship with rights, access,
etc. to all His riches. But this is possible only because Christ is our
righteousness. Our work, effort, deeds have nothing to do with this, only our
believing has entitled us this position. Our eternal status is based on
this alone.

The "righteousnesses of the saints" refers to the work, deeds, accomplishments
of our christian life and living. For this Christ will reward each man 
according to his doings whether good or bad. Obviously if you believed but
bear no fruit you would not recieve the same reward as someone who believed
and brought many to the Lord as an example. Though you are both sons and
entitled to the same rights and privilages (because Christ is your
righteousness), you will not recieve the same reward at His Judgement Seat
because your fruit bearing is different, your life was lived differently,
your time was spent differently, etc. 

Let me try it this way: You will not appear before the Judgement Seat of
Christ unless you have put on Christ as your righteousness. Non-believers
do not appear before the Judgement Seat of Christ. Only believers. Therefore
everyone at the Judgement Seat of Christ has already put on Christ as their
righteousness. What need is there of a judgement by Christ if the only thing
being judged is whether you have Christ as your righteousness? You already
did that. Therefore what is being judged by Christ, in the "air", before the
millenium begins, is *your* righteousnesses (plural). Deeds, works, etc.
Christ the Judge will award a crown of righteousness to the deserving ones.
Everyone at the Judgement Seat of Christ has a robe of righteousness but 
not everyone will receive a crown of righteousness, or perhaps not the same
crown (its a symbol). 

How'd I do? I realize the kingdom reward is not a well understood matter and
is often confused with eternal status of the believer. Hopefully, I've 
explained my beliefs on this matter.

Regards,
Ace 
 

    re: .14
                 
    Hi Ace,
    
    >We are one with Christ when we believe. Yet the thought in these
    >verses convey an additional effort, work, deed etc, after believing
    >which when judged by Christ at His judgement seat will issue in a reward.
    
    Yes we are one with Christ when we first believe, but its also
    something you grow into, that changes and deepens with time.  As I 
    walk with Christ my relationship with Him grows and changes and what 
    it means to me to be one with Him changes.  For example, when I first 
    believed I knew that He was my savior and that He died for my sins, 
    I read that and I believed it.  Now after walking with Him through many 
    of my sins and watching Him forgive me and heal me, my relationship 
    with Him is much fuller, and one day I will fully be one with Him.  
    Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully
    known (1 Corinthians 13:12).
    
    This walking with Him and following Him is not easy.  I don't want to
    use the word work since thats misleading.  Its more like trying to just
    step back and trust Him enough to lead.  You can't do this if you are
    lazy, it takes a lot of energy.  How far you are filling to follow Him
    is what the Judgement Seat of Christ is about.  But remember, all of
    His children will reign for eternity with Him.  Thats the real reward,
    any special position or things that are given to the "better" believers
    are really just extras. 
    
    
    Jill
      

Hi, Ace.

Thanks for your clarification.  I think I better understand your position and
related definitions.

| "Righteousness" like other words in the Bible has more than one application,
| though the meaning is essentially the same. "Salvation/saved" is another word
| that is applied in multiple ways. For instance, we are saved by grace and we
| are told to work our our own salvation by fear and trembling (Phil). There is
| no contradiction but a correct understanding of the application that is
| needed.

** My own reconciliation of being saved by grace and working out our own
   salvation is not that we have anything at all to do with being saved, but
   we certainly are involved in making our salvation manifest, i.e., letting
   the fruit of the Spirit be seen.

   So, the "working out" is letting what has taken place in our heart impact
   what others can see.

| The "righteousnesses of the saints" refers to the work, deeds, accomplishments
| of our christian life and living. For this Christ will reward each man 
| according to his doings whether good or bad. Obviously if you believed but
| bear no fruit you would not recieve the same reward as someone who believed
| and brought many to the Lord as an example. Though you are both sons and
| entitled to the same rights and privilages (because Christ is your
| righteousness), you will not recieve the same reward at His Judgement Seat
| because your fruit bearing is different, your life was lived differently,
| your time was spent differently, etc.

** One of the passages you referenced regarding the "righteousnesses" of the
   saints in fact speaks to the righteousness with which we are clothed:

   "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him: for the marriage of
   the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready. And to her was
   granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the
   fine linen is the righteousness of saints." (Re.19:7&8)

   Job in describing his former state (by God's own judgment a man who was
   "perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil") said:

   "I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and
   a diadem." (Job 29:14)  I find very interesting how this righteousness
   affected people around Job, i.e., how Job was regarded by men.

| What need is there of a judgement by Christ if the only thing
| being judged is whether you have Christ as your righteousness? You already
| did that. Therefore what is being judged by Christ, in the "air", before the
| millenium begins, is *your* righteousnesses (plural). Deeds, works, etc.
| Christ the Judge will award a crown of righteousness to the deserving ones.
| Everyone at the Judgement Seat of Christ has a robe of righteousness but 
| not everyone will receive a crown of righteousness, or perhaps not the same
| crown (its a symbol).

** I see the Judgment-Seat of Christ as addressing the degree to which
   believers by faith put on His righteousness, or the degree to which we
   yielded ourselves "unto God, as those that are alive from the dead" and
   our "members as instruments of righteousness unto God."

| How'd I do? I realize the kingdom reward is not a well understood matter and
| is often confused with eternal status of the believer. Hopefully, I've 
| explained my beliefs on this matter.

** Doesn't matter how I think you did.  We have different understandings at
   this point, and I would not presume to say I know as I ought/will.  But I
   will concur with you that "the kingdom reward is not a well understood
   matter!" :-)

/Wayne

re.23 & re.24

Jill, Wayne,

I concur with what you've said for the greater part and I too share your
feelings and beliefs concerning our relationship in His life.

The kingdom reward is a great truth often overlooked. Once revealed, more
light comes. 

Regards,
Ace

    So what is the reward?  (Didn't we start here? :-) )
    
    Jill
    

    what more do you need than eternal communion with the one who saved
    you? ;-)

    Hi, Ace.
    
    Interesting the title you "happened" to give your last reply!
    
    Of course, as you know, the context of your title is Jesus' own words
    recorded in Mt.6:
    
    "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and
    love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.
    Ye cannot serve God and mammon. Therefore I say unto you, Take no
    thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor
    yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than
    meat, and the body more than raiment? Behold the fowls of the air: for
    they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your
    heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? Which
    of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? And why
    take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they
    grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, That
    even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
    Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is,
    and tomorrow is cast into the oven, shall He not much more clothe you,
    O ye of little faith? Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we
    eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For
    after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father
    knoweth that ye have need of all these things.  But seek ye first the
    kingdom of God, AND HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS; and all these things shall be
    added unto you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the
    morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the
    day is the evil thereof."
    
    Would it be such a stretch to take Jesus' words to imply that by no
    thought or action on our part can we add to His righteousness "working
    out" in us?  "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto
    good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
    (Ep.2:10)
    
    I really appreciate your heart, Ace.  I've been encouraged by our
    discussion.  And Mike, Amen!
    
    /Wayne

re.26

Hi Jill,

>So what is the reward?  (Didn't we start here? :-) )

 RTF (Return From Subroutine) See .2

8*)

re.28

Hi Wayne,

> Would it be such a stretch to take Jesus' words to imply that by no
> thought or action on our part can we add to His righteousness "working
> out" in us? 

Our righteousnesses (plural) are no doubt sourced from the operation of 
Christ in us. The extent that we allow Him to operate in us will determine 
the amount of fruit, transformation, etc. that we manifest. Christ will
judge this as previously discussed.
 
Since I'm not the Bible Answer-man, 8*) let's turn the questions to you.

Two questions for you: 
	1) What is at stake at the Judgement Seat of Christ?
	2) Do you think that the thief on the cross and the Apostle Paul will 	
	   receive the same reward at the Judgement Seat of Christ? 

Thanks,
Ace

    Re: Note 905.29 by SUBSYS::LOPEZ

� RTF (Return From Subroutine) See .2
    
    What language is this? I've seen RET and RSB, but RTF??
    
    	BD�

|	2) Do you think that the thief on the cross and the Apostle Paul will 	
|	   receive the same reward at the Judgement Seat of Christ? 
    
    I'm not Wayne, and I don't play him on TV.  However, I think with the
    heavenly rewards, the focus will be on quality not quantity.  If you
    did the best you could with what God gave you, I think your reward will
    match Billy Graham's reward.
    
    Mike

re. 31

So, never programmed in ODT machine code, eh?

8*)

re.32

Hi Mike,

I see your point. Say more about the "qualitiative" aspect.


Thanks,
Ace

re.31

Now that I think about it, Return From Subroutine would be RFS.

Anyway get your PDP-11 programming card out and refresh me!  8*)

ace

    WEll, I'm not sure how much more to add.  Billy Graham has been
    faithful with what God has given him.  If reward was based on number
    (quantity), Graham will be the easy winner of history.  Nobody else 
    has preached to billions of people in one night.  Nobody else has been
    used by God to bring millions of souls to a saving knowledge of Jesus 
    Christ.

    On the other hand, you have Joan Servant who has been the 6th grade
    Sunday School teacher for as many years as Billy Graham has been an
    evangelist.  She's made an impact on every child that comes into her
    class.  Let's estimate that God has used her to lead 50 children to
    Christ over this timeframe.  She is a respected and dear saint in her
    church.

    Now which gets the bigger reward?  Which is more faithful?  Which has
    made the best use of what God has given them?  In my eyes, their reward
    is equal.  This is what I mean by quality over quantity.  

    Another case is Joe Slacker who has a potentially great talent for God,
    but neglects it.  God has placed several people in his life that are
    ripe for spiritual harvest into God's kingdom.  For whatever reason, he
    doesn't share his faith with them and doesn't allow God to use him to
    lead them to Christ.  He may even realize it afterwards with regret and
    know he let God down.  This man is saved, but may be the proverbial
    smoking gun by the time his rewards are burned up in the fire of God. 
    He didn't allow God to use him to achieve that quality.

    Funny how it all boils down to God too.  He saves us and even does the
    work in helping us earn our reward!  What a good God!

    Mike

Hi, Ace.

| Two questions for you: 
|	1) What is at stake at the Judgement Seat of Christ?

** "...ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. According to the grace
   of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the
   foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how
   he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is
   laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold,
   silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made
   manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by
   fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any
   man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
   If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself
   shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (1Co.3:9b-15)

   "For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who
   called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. And unto one he
   gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man
   according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey. Then he
   that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made
   them other five talents. And likewise he that had received two, he also
   gained other two. But he that had received one went and digged in the earth,
   and hid his lord's money. After a long time the lord of those servants
   cometh, and reckoned with them. And so he that had received five talents
   came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me
   five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. His lord
   said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been
   faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter
   thou into the joy of thy lord. He also that had received two talents came
   and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained
   two other talents beside them. His lord said unto him, Well done, good and
   faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make
   thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. Then he
   which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou
   are an hard man, reaping where thou hast now sown, and gathering where thou
   hast not strawed: And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the
   earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. His lord answered and said unto
   him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I
   sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: Thou oughtest therefore to
   have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have
   received mine own with usury. Take therefore the talent from him, and give
   it unto him which hath ten talents. For unto every one that hath shall be
   given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be
   taken away even that which he hath. And cast the unprofitable servant into
   outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Mt.25:14-30)

   The disciples came unto Jesus, saying, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom
   of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto Him, and set him in the
   midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and
   become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
   Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is
   greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little
   child in my name receiveth me. But whoso shall offend one of these little
   ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were
   hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
   Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences
   come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" (Mt.18:1-7)

   So, I would concur with Mike's suggestion of quality versus quantity.  Our
   Lord gives grace according to His plan/our ability.  What we do with what
   we're given is the question.  The reward appears to be entering into the
   joy of our Lord.

   One definition of soul is the capacity to enjoy life.  I suspect that the
   greater reward is the greater capacity to enjoy God, but all will be filled
   to capacity and no one will perceive others as greater or lesser than
   themselves.

   Of course, this is speculation.  Answers to your questions must draw in
   large part from implication.

   There will be those standing before the judgment-seat of Christ thinking
   they've done well, but our Lord will make manifest what shall endure.  That
   which did not flow from His righteousness will be taken away and destroyed.

   I suspect that those who have caused others to stumble will lose much of
   what they think they built on the foundation of Jesus Christ!  In fact, the
   "good" of an offender may be credited to the offended who maintained
   reverence and humility before man and God in the midst of suffering and
   pain.

   I look for those who have suffered most in this earthly life to be credited
   with most in the heavenly life.

   But, my opinion doesn't matter.  I just want to look full in the wonderful
   face of my Lord, in the light of His glory and grace!

|	2) Do you think that the thief on the cross and the Apostle Paul will 	
|	   receive the same reward at the Judgement Seat of Christ?

** I don't know.  There is nothing in Scripture to explicitly answer this
   question.

   "And one of the malefactors which where hanged railed on Him, saying, If
   thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him,
   saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
   And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this
   man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when
   thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto
   thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." (Lk.23:39-43)

   I suspect that being with Jesus in paradise represents the same thing as
   entering into the joy of our Lord.  I don't think the thief will perceive
   himself as lesser than Paul, while Paul likely won't perceive himself
   greater than the thief.  The thief and the Apostle may have different
   capacities to enjoy God, but both will be filled to capacity with the joy
   of our Lord.

/Wayne

re last few

You all passed the test. 8*) There is a reward that is not necessarily
the same for all.  Good for us that the Lord is gracious and righteous and
whatever we recieve as a reward will be more than we really deserve! 8*)

This point of the Judgement Seat of Christ is crucial and often missed. 
Perhaps more later.

Enjoyed the discussion.

Grace to you,
ace

  Hi,

    Just a couple thoughts on reward.  I can only really think of one
    thing people can have in verying amounts after the 2nd Coming.
 
    The Bible refers a few times to the crucifixion of our flesh.  This
    is an experience which has occured with Christians to varying degrees.
    Many Christian have only had minor experiences dealing with the lusts
    of the flesh.

    After Christ comes, we will have incorruptible flesh and it won't
    exert a pull such as Galatians 5:16-24 or Romans 8:1-9 refers to.
    It won't have a terrible 'law of sin' in it as Romans 7:18,23-24.  
    It won't introduce terrible temptations to the mind.  Neither will 
    there be fallen angels and evil people to tempt us.

    I believe God's love shows us our sin and the last generation will
    be exposed to all of their sin - and will give it all up in repentance - 
    "Here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus"
    (Rev. 14:12).

    Not only that, but after they are perfected, they will venture behind
    the veil where their forerunner went before them.  This outpouring of
    light will expose virtually all of the lusts of the flesh and this
    will cause the remnant to 'feel' so incredibly evil.  This will also be
    the mark of the beast movement and they will be tremendously tempted 
    by the world.  However, they are righteous and they will overcome by faith.

    Hebrews 2:9
    But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the
    suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace
    of God, might taste death for everyone.

    Every denial of the flesh is a dying to self experience.  It is a 
    tasting of the cross.  Every Christian has a crown of gold on their head - 
    some inward experience of faith wrought out in sinful flesh.  Some more
    than others.

    The last generation has the faith of Jesus.  They have an experience of
    the crucifixion of the flesh that is greater than any previous generation.
    
    The remembrance of their battle of faith against all temptation is their
    reward.

    After the 2nd coming, there will be no oppurtunity to have such an 
    experience.  I happen to believe there are unfallen worlds - creatures
    who have never fallen who don't know the struggle to obey that we know.
    
    I can think of no greater reward that cannot be attained after the 2nd
    coming, outside of salvation itself, than the remembrance of the experience
    of crucifying the flesh with all its lusts.  Imagine throughout eternity
    having an unfallen angel ask, "What was it like to serve God while 
    encumbered as you were?"  What a joy it will be to respond and what greater
    joy it will be to be able to testify to the experience of the remnant who
    goes behind the veil and can recount what it was like to see all the evil
    in sinful flesh, to feel all that horrow, and to resist by faith!

    That to me is the crown of glory.  That resisting against sin while it
    is all exposed.  For

    Hebrews 12:4
    You have not yet resisted unto bloodshed striving against sin.

    And

    Hebrews 13:12-13
    Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own
    blood, suffered outside the gate.
    Therefore let us go forth to Him, outside the camp, bearing His reproach.

							Tony

    "Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's
    Spirit lives in you?" (1Co.3:16, NIV)
    
    Church isn't some PLACE you go.  It's something you ARE.
    
    And Christ will keep us strong to the end and present us to Himself as
    a glorious church, without blemish, holy and blameless.

| <<< Note 905.40 by ROCK::PARKER >>>

| Church isn't some PLACE you go.  It's something you ARE.

	Wayne, very well put!

Don't let that be misinterpreted.

Although Christianity is a personal relationship with Jesus, it is
exercised in community, not alone.

/john

| <<< Note 905.42 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >>>

| Although Christianity is a personal relationship with Jesus, it is
| exercised in community, not alone.

	John, if you were to head off on your own to some deserted island, and
there was no contact with people.... would you still be a Christian?

      Not meaning to rathole, but John has a good point.  "Church"
      connotates, among other things, corporateness.
    
      And I don't think Wayne disagrees.

 Of course one would still be a Christian.  The point being, not that I intend
 to speak for John, that the church serves as a community of believers where
 the sharing and fellowship of believers serves as an encouragement.  



 Jim

	In the situation I talked of.... couldn't John be the church? I'm not
saying that one has to be on their own.... but if one was, wouldn't it still be
the same as long as Jesus was the main focus?

re.39

Hi Tony,

>Not only that, but after they are perfected, they will venture behind
>the veil where their forerunner went before them.

Do you know that we can enter the Holy of Holies today? 

ace

      Hi Ace,
    
        Would you differentiate entering the Holy of Holies
        from inhabiting Mount Zion (Hebrews 12:25-29)?
    
        If you see a difference in the two, just what difference
        do you see?
    
    						Tony

    "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of
    that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one
    Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or
    Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink
    into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot
    shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it
    therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not
    the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the
    whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole body were
    hearing, where were the smelling? But now God hath set the members
    every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased Him. And if they were
    all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet
    but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of
    thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much
    more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are
    necessary: And those members of the body, which we think to be less
    honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely
    parts have more abundant comeliness. For our comely parts have no need:
    but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant
    honour to that part which lacked: That there should be no schism in the
    body; but that the members should have the same care for another. And
    whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one
    member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. Now ye are the
    body of Christ, and members in particular." (1Co.12:12-27, KJV)
    
    "...walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all
    lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in
    love; Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
    There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of
    your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of
    all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. But unto every
    one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of
    Christ...And He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some,
    evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the
    saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of
    Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the
    knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of
    the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more
    children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of
    doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness whereby they
    lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up
    into Him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the
    whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every
    joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of
    every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in
    love." (Ep.4:1-16, KJV)

    "Now where remission of <sins and iniquities> is, there is no more
    offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, liberty to enter into the
    holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which He hath
    consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, His flesh; And
    having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a
    true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from
    an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold
    fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for He is faithful
    that promised;) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and
    to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as
    the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more,
    as ye see the day approaching...Cast not away therefore your confidence,
    which hath great recompense of reward. For ye have need of patience,
    that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
    For yet a little while, and He that shall come will come, and will not
    tarry. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my
    soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back
    unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."
    (He.10:18-39, KJV)

Hi Tony,

re.49

What do you think?

ace

    
    
    
    re: -1  
    
      Hi Ace,
      
        I think entering behind the veil and inhabiting Mount Zion
        are both metaphors for seeing God unveiled.  God's glory
        exposes sin.  It is very painful to see our sin and thus 
        sin is exposed progressively as we are able to bear seeing
        it.
    
        Thus, part of God's redemptive work is the veil.
    
        Jesus went behind the veil at Calvary.  We have full access
        to the Holy of Holies, but (in love), God will grant us that
        access when we can survive the experience.
    
    						Tony

Hi Tony,

	re.51

	I noticed how you referred to entering the Holy of Holies as a 
future event which prompted my question. I understand why you believe the
what you do.

	I can enjoy the experience of entering into the Holy of Holies
today. In fact, I must as a provision to live a victorious christian life.  

	"Having therefore, brothers, boldness for entering the Holy of 
Holies by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way, which He dedicated 
for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, and having a great Priest over
the house of God, let us come forward to the Holy of Holies with a true
heart..." Heb 10:19-22

	"Let us therefore come forward with boldness to the throne of
grace, that we may receive mercy and may find grace for timely help." 
Heb 4:16

	The "throne of grace" signified by the propitiation-cover (the
mercy seat) within the Holy of Holies (Ex 25:17,21) which is the throne
of both God and the Lamb (Rev 22:1).

By this we can see that a new and living way was cut for the believers
to enter into the Holy of Holies to receive mercy and grace for timely
help. This is not a future event, rather a current provision. In our
experience we may choose not enter, but the way is currently open 
nonetheless. 

Regards,
Ace

      Hi Ace,
    
        I truly mean this not as boasting, but just to give you an
        inkling that I am somewhat aware of the theme of the book
        of Hebrews.  
    
        I memorized it.
    
        The entire book is an exhortation for a corporate body of
        God's faithful to do something never done before.
    
        Yes, the exhortation is there to enter the holy of holies.
        It is also there to perfectly rest in Christ, to go on unto
        perfection, and to inhabit Mount Zion.  Each and every one
        of these are synonymous expressions.
    
        I explained why it is that God in His mercy has veiled the
        full beauty of His face from my eyes.  You have chosen not
        to respond to this explanation.
    
        Unless I hear an explanation of another belief that shows that
        spiritual reality does not work as I briefly mentioned, your
        reply is significantly incomplete for me.
    
        Isaiah 33:17-18a
        Your eyes will see the King in His beauty;
        They will see the land that is vry far off.
        Your heart will meditate on terror.
    
        Isaiah 28:19-20
        As often as it goes out it will take you
        For morning by morning it will pass over,
        And by day and by night;
        It will be a terror just to understand the report.
        For the bed is too short for a man to stretch out on,
        And the covering so narrow that he cannot wrap himself in it.
    
        (no covering when one is behind the veil.)
    
        Psalm 24:3-6
        Who may ascend into the hill of the Lord?
        Or who may stand in His holy place?
        He who has clean hands and a pure heart,
        Who has not lifted up his soul to an idol, 
        Nor sworn deceitfully.
        He shall receive blessing from the Lord,
        And righteousness from the God of His salvation.
        This is Jacob, the generation of those who seek Him,
        Who seek Your face.     Selah
    
        Jeremiah 30:5-7;24;31:2
        For thus says the Lord:
    
        "We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear and not of peace.
         Ask now and see, whether a man is ever in labor with child?
         So why do I see every man with hands on his loins 
         Like a woman in labor, And all faces turned pale?
         Alas!  For that day is great, so that none is like it;
         And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
         But he shall be saved out of it.
    
         The fierce anger of the Lord will not return until He has
         done it.  And until He has performed the intents of His heart.
         In the latter days you will consider it.
    
         Thus says the Lord:
    
         "The people who survived the sword found grace in the wilderness -
          Israel when I went to give him rest."
    
         As I study what it means to enter behind the veil, I see that
         sin cannot be present in the heart for one to survive.  That
         kind of glory consumes sin and thus would consume the sinner.
    
         Proverbs 20:8
         A king who sits on the throne of judgment scatters all evil
         with His eyes.
    
         Proverbs 20:30
         Blows that hurt cleanse away evil, as do stripes the inner
         depths of the heart.
    
         This is the revelation that saves, but unless it is progressive
         (and not all at once) it will destroy.
    
         Proverbs 17:3
         The refining pot is for silver and the furnace for gold,
         but the Lord tests the hearts.
    
         I think your posture is missing a tremendous amount of scriptural
         support.
    
         Just as surely as Hebrews exhorts us to enter behind the veil,
         it exhorts us to inhabit Mount Zion where our God is a consuming
         fire.  
    
         The exhortations are the same.
    
         And preparation is necessary.  Psalm 24 describes the spiritual
         state of one ready to ascend the hill of the Lord.
    
    						Tony

re.53

Tony,

	Believers don't enter the Holy of Holies based on their own merit.
We stand before God covered by His blood. When God looks at us He sees
Christ. Our sins are forgiven and forgotten, we are cleased, positionally
sanctified, and reconciled to God. Now we need to come to the throne of
grace (Heb 4:16) to our High Priest, Christ to recieve Him as our daily 
supply. Where is the throne of grace? It is in the Holy of Holies. Where is
our High Priest? In the Holy of Holies. The only way we can enter the Holy of
Holies is by the blood of Jesus. Paul is exhorting those who would be fearful 
of entering the Holy of Holies to participate in the new and living access to
God and come forward *boldly*, not cowering before a mighty and terrible
consumming God, but as brothers of Christ and sons of God to receive timely
grace. What is timely grace? It is grace to meet your immediate needs. Not
later, not once, but now. This is obtained at the throne of grace in the Holy 
of Holies. 

	In the Old Testment the high priest went once a year behind the
veil to sprinkle the blood on the propitiation cover to make atonement
for the people. In the new and living way the veil that separated the
Holy of Holies from the Holy Place has been torn, access is immediate and
continual. It's really up to us whether we enter to recieve Christ on a moment
by moment basis. We should not live in the condemnation of our sins or what we
are. No amount of good living, self deprecation, self realization will ever
qualify you to come to the throne of grace in the Holy of Holies. We boldly
enter because of what He accomplished, His merit alone. This is not an
option. This is His design. We need to take His new and living way.

	"Having therefore brothers, boldness for entering the Holy of 
Holies *by the blood of Jesus*,". Heb 10:19

	Memorization is good but we also need a spirit of wisdom and
revelation. Otherwise, the Bible becomes a mental thing.

Regards,
Ace

	

    re: .53
    
             Thus says the Lord:
        
             "The people who survived the sword found grace in the
              wilderness - Israel when I went to give him rest."
                           
    Is this a specific verse?  I can't find it.
    
    Jill
    

    re: .55
    
    Yes Jill, a highly relevent text.  Within the context of Jacob's
    time of trouble and the enumeration of the everlasting covenant
    (God writing His law in our hearts).  This then ties in with
    Hebrews as the same covenant is mentioned twice in Hebrews.
    
    Psalm 24 provides more linkage.  Jacob mentioned again and
    described as a generation.  Also described as ascending a hill
    which brings us back to Hebrews (ch. 12) where Mount Zion is
    described.  Ps. 24 also refers to Jacob as *seeking God's face*
    or a metaphor for seeing God unveiled.  (Most Holy exp.)
    
    So many linkages!  The blessing of an Isaiah 28 study for this
    is how THE TRUTH emerges!!!
    
    						Tony