Conference yukon::christian_v7

    Re: Note 897.0 by JULIET::MORALES_NA
    
�    However, what I would like to hear from you is your opinion regarding
�    separation and holiness while living in the world?  What does it mean
�    to be in the world, but not of the world?
    
    I'll start, though I'm fully aware that I don't have a cut & dried
    bullet list of what it means. (Too bad, too; I like it when things are
    cut & dried :-)
    
    To be IN the world is the easy one. We live among fallen humanity. We
    may have family, friends, loved ones, co-workers, church members, etc.,
    who aren't saved, don't recognize God, don't acknowledge the authority
    of His Word... Yet we still co-exist with these folks; indeed, we are
    here to help them come to know the Truth.
    
    To be not OF the world is where the gray starts to creep in. Since I
    try to boil things down to simplicity (I can't handle things that
    haven't been simplified!) I just figure that not being OF the world
    means we live our lives so that we don't veer from God's written
    revelation. If the Bible says "no", we say "no". If the Bible says
    "yes", we say "yes". If the Bible is silent or unclear, we have to
    apply broader principles which are possibly open to multiple
    interpretations. (For example, what does it mean to us living in A.D.
    to keep the Sabbath holy? Is it ok to steal a loaf of bread if your
    kids are on the verge of starving to death?)
    
    I realize there is no brainstorm in what I've said, but I don't know
    what else to do except know the Word as well as I possibly can (so I
    know its "no", "yes", and "other" issues) and strive to be more
    Christlike in living according to His will instead of my own.
    
    	BD�

    I was talking to a mother at softball last night.  We were remarking
    that the team was actually winning (YES they won their first game 7-5
    and Julie scored a run!). Sorry about the regression, I got excited,
    anyway she remarked that their luck couldn't have gotten any worse. 
    Then she went on to change her mind and tell me about her day.  Her
    sister was having terrible luck over the last year or so.  She got
    really sick, got really depressed, got fat, and so forth.  This woman 
    said that her sister was going away this weekend, she said that it would 
    be good for her.  It was the first trip she had mananged since all this 
    started happening.  But the sister didn't have anything to wear since 
    she gained all this weight.  So this woman took her sister shopping to 
    cheer her up and get her some shorts.  She said that her sister tried 
    on every pair of shorts in the store and nothing fit, which was very
    surprising in itself.  This really discouraged her.  Then leaving the store
    the sister slipped, flew up into the air and landed funny on her back,  
    and wound up in the hosptal.  So she concluded, luck can get worse.
    
    I was speechless at the end of this.  I just had no idea how to
    respond.  I don't know.  My hear ached for this sister.  I could have
    mentioned Jesus.  I could have come against all this talking of luck. 
    I could have offered to pray with her for her sister.  But I just left 
    trying to hide my true emotions.  
    
    So how do you walk in this world while not being of this world?
    
    
    Jill
    

    An additional thought came to me while pondering what I wrote in .1.
    Being not of the world implies that our direction is other-wordly. So,
    while the lost have goals like being successful, getting married (or
    divorced), making lots of money, having a satisfying job, etc., the
    primary goal (though not necessarily the only goal) of the Christian is
    to honor God. He is our Lord, so our mission is to be more like Him,
    honor Him, submit to Him, etc.
    
    We certainly don't always reach that point, and even as we strive for
    it we can have secondary goals (I wouldn't mind being a rich Christian
    instead of a middle-class Christian :-). The objective, though, is to
    live as God wants us to live. As Col. 3:2 tells us, we should have our
    affections set on things above, not on things on the earth.
    
    	BD�

    
    Hi Sis
    
       This is some revelation that God has shown me concerning being in
    this world but not of it. I just want to start out by saying that the
    LORD wants to provide our basic needs, spiritually, financially, etc.
    and of coarse if GOD blesses us over and beyond our basic needs, we are
    to use all, wisely for the kingdom.  As he meets our basic needs, we at     
    the same time are to live a consecrated life from all that is not
    holy, clean, pure, seperating ourselves from the sins and philosophys
    of this world, the list goes on as you know.
    
     Seperating our minds and hearts from these things is what God is
    saying but yet not seperating ourselves from people. How can souls be
    saved if we dont allow God to use us if we become hermits and stay away
    from people? Maybe what ive said some may find over simplistic, i dont
    know but i do know what God has shown me. Some Examples: I stopped buying
    secular cd's and movies, ones that i thought were clean or(half)decent
    because God convicted me that they werent totally pure and when i was
    buying them i was supporting a liberal hollywood and liberal record
    companys. Another example is friends i grew up with that do cocaine,
    get drunk, sleep around. Even though i care about them and have
    witnessed to them, telling them truth, they dont accept, i move on
    from them, Jesus moved on. These are examples of consecration, being in 
    this world but not of it, of coarse i fall sometimes 8-(.
    
        Look at Jesus. God sent him here, he was on a mission. He ate and
    drank with sinners, he preached and taught the kingdom of God. He was
    involved(still is, amen!) in peoples lives but yet his thoughts were 
    not their thoughts, not of sin and false teaching, not of the
    philosophys of this world but of Gods kingdom. Jesus was in this world
    but not of it.
                   thomas

    I will add to this one, though I rarely do.  Our church has been
    discussing 'Christ in Culture' in the wake of ammendment 2, etc.
    I think this addresses directly the issue of how we should act in,
    while remaining not of.  Since I am still struggling with these issues, I
    will merely ask a few questions, for which I dont yet have full
    answers, (though its always hard not to word them leaning in a direction):
    
    1) Is it His will that we convince non-Christian society to 'be good'?
    Such as the babtist boycott.  Or is it His will that we focus our efforts
    on introducing as many individuals to the Lord as possible?  Does the former
    help or hurt us in doing the latter?  I guess only the Lord can answer this
    question for each of us, but it is probably interesting to discuss it in
    general, and based on how we all feel lead.
    
    2) We like to say 'stop sitting on the fence' yet we dont accept when
    people choose to jump off the other side.  Is it better to have a
    society of pseudo-Christians, whose behavior we are comfortable with
    but are not truely Christians, or one where individuals choose to let
    it be obvious to all where they really stand?  Are we watering down
    what it is to believe?
    
    3) What, of the actions Christian groups take, are more Christian
    Culture than really biblically based, and something we could envision
    Christ doing himself, even given the world we currently live in?
    
    4) Is the lack of godliness (small g) in modern society due more to
    non-Christians actions, or Christians lack of (appropriate) action?
    
    5) It seems a given that we are to 'participate' in general society
    (voting, etc), it would be irresponsible not to.  But when we do, we
    should be careful in starting holy wars, with Christians on both sides.
    Should we speak as if we are the voice of God, or simply as citizens with
    a valid (and maybe more popular, if we all speak out) opinion?
    
    6) Are we becomming 'part of' when we worry too much about the actions
    of the rest of the society and not enough about why they act they way
    they do?
    
    Some ramblings for now,
    
    - Jim

    .6
    
    Before I take on your questions, I haven't ever heard the term
    "christian culture" before.  What does it mean?

    These are not questions for Christians alone, but ones that at least
    some Jews also struggle with.  I just recently initiated some contact
    with a Jewish group called Root & Branch although I haven't heard back 
    from them yet.  The two quotes below, taken from two different sources, 
    state their purpose:
                                     ~~~~~~~~~~~
    "The Root and Branch Association promotes the application of universal
    Torah principles to the solution of problems facing humanity today.
    Special attention is given to the Noahide Covenant and Laws as the basis
    for universal ethics and morality."
                                     ~~~~~~~~~~~
    "Root & Branch represents Jews and Non-Jews who believe in

    1. working together on behalf of the Jewish People
        and the State of Israel
    2. studying traditional Jewish teachings with rabbis
        and Torah scholars
    3. building a world based on biblical principles"
                                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    In this sense there really is a Judeo-Christian heritage & purpose.  What 
    does it mean to do tikun olam (heal the world)?  What does it mean to keep
    oneself holy (set apart?) for the Lord?  What does it mean to love your
    neighbor as yourself?  Who is one's neighbor?  What does it mean to love
    God with all your mind, soul, and strength?  What is the place of the 
    religious person in a secular society?  How do you live within a diverse 
    community that does not share the same values and goals?  To what degree 
    should we work to shape the laws, rules, courts, and governance of our 
    country?  How do you remain true to God and true to yourself and yet work 
    and earn your living in a mixed society, and contribute to your community?
    In what ways can you leave the world better than you found it?

    These are things that I struggle with in a greater or lesser degree every
    day, so my responses to the questions you posed represent working responses,
    things in flux and change as I learn and hopefully grow in maturity as a
    person of faith.
  
>    1) Is it His will that we convince non-Christian society to 'be good'?
>    Such as the babtist boycott.  Or is it His will that we focus our efforts
>    on introducing as many individuals to the Lord as possible?  Does the former
>    help or hurt us in doing the latter?  I guess only the Lord can answer this
>    question for each of us, but it is probably interesting to discuss it in
>    general, and based on how we all feel lead.

     I think there are certain moral limits that we should strive to have
     in place in our laws and our court system.  Murder, theft, bringing
     purposely false charges against a person (such as falsely accusing someone
     of criminal conduct in order to gain an advantage in civil suit) and
     so on should be ilegal.  There should appropriate measures in place
     to prohibit such actions and to punish an offender.  There should be 
     courts of law whose aim is justice.  You know, justice with the blindfold,
     not taking things such as gender, race, age, wealth, poverty, or occupation
     into consideration, but weighing only the issues of the case.

     The Baptist boycott may be over-reaching.  However, if any one person 
     does not wish to purchase a product for whatever reason, well, that is 
     their free choice also.
      
>    2) We like to say 'stop sitting on the fence' yet we dont accept when
>    people choose to jump off the other side.  Is it better to have a
>    society of pseudo-Christians, whose behavior we are comfortable with
>    but are not truely Christians, or one where individuals choose to let
>    it be obvious to all where they really stand?  Are we watering down
>    what it is to believe?

   Like the Root and Branch Society, I think there are certain Torah (Biblical)
   priniciples that should apply to human conduct.  However, I think we
   need to see in shades of nuance, and not just in "black and white".  There
   are areas where I feel certain conduct is wrong, unbecoming, and unhealthy
   to what it means to be human, and yet some of these are not high on the
   "there have to be laws against this" catagory.  In some of these cases
   I think we should influence by our personal conduct and by participating
   in the arts and culture showing what is good, right, and godly rather than
   dictating and agitating.  

   But I do not think that is wrong for unbelievers to have a certain degree of
   moral standards.  I would not that call pseudo-Christian.  Pseudo-Christian
   would be one who pretends to follow God and secretly subverts God's 
   desires.  Annanais & Saphira come to mind.  But to conduct oneself and
   govern one's society with justice, this is not watering down what it means
   to be religious or have faith.

   Today I have the freedom to not go to certain places, to not participate 
   in certain activities, and to prevent my children from being involved in 
   them.  There seems to be somewhat of an erosion of this freedom going on.  
   I wonder how we can slow the erosion down or reverse it?  If we don't 
   participate in making this a better place, if we don't influence the world 
   in some way, will it grow so dark and terrible that we will have to withdraw 
   completely from it at some point? I don't think withdrawing completely is 
   very possible these days, nor do I think it is what God desires of us.

   I'll have to tackle the rest later as it is time for me to head out of here
   for a supper break, though I'll need to come back afterwards to finish up
   some pre-vacation things.  I'll be out the next few days, so may not have
   immediate opportunity to follow-up on the this discussion or the remaining
   questions.

   Leslie

    Going back to Jill  in .2:

    It has occured to me that when we feel we made a mistake or missed
    an opportunity to share our faith and give a word of encouragement
    or hope, that sometimes we can rectify the situation.

    For example, if you know the woman & know how to reach her by 
    telephone, you could give her a call.  You could explain to her that
    you were caught off guard by the sadness of her sister's story, and
    didn't respond as well as you would have wished.  You could tell her
    that you will keep her sister in your prayers, and that if there is
    anything you can do for the sister, you would like to help.  Depending
    on her response, you can go further.

    My sister, Carolyn, told me this story the other day.  I thought she 
    was very strong.  Carolyn has a neighbor whose grandson is in her custody.
    Carolyn doesn't know the whole story, but there is much hostility on
    the part of the woman's daughter towards her for having gained custody
    of the boy.  Apparently the boy actually wanted to live with his 
    grandparents because of some not so great situations in his home, but
    he still loves his Mom very much.  Anyhow, the neighbor had another 
    daughter, the sister of the boy's mother.  This sister died very recently.
    My sister went to the memorial service.  At the service she noticed a 
    woman who looked a lot like the others in the family, especially resembling
    the boy.  She was with a fellow, and kept apart from the rest of the people
    there.  After the service, Carolyn was one of the last to leave the
    parking lot, and she noticed that this woman and the man were still there.
    So she screwed up her courage and decided to approach the woman to offer 
    her condolences and sympathy over the loss of her sister.  When Carolyn
    asked the woman if she was Sam's (not his real name) Mom, the woman 
    answered with sharpness and hostility, "Who are you?".  Carolyn
    answered that her name was Carolyn, she lived next door, and her sons
    were Sam's friends and played with him a lot, and she just wanted to tell
    the woman how sorry she was about the loss of her sister.  The woman then 
    asked, still with great hostility and anger, "And will your sons still be 
    Sam's friends when I have custody?".  Carolyn answered that she expected 
    her sons would always be Sam's friends because they liked him and he was a
    good kid.  The man responded, "Yes, he is a good kid, and thank you."  
    Only then did the woman soften a little and said, "Yes, thanks."  That was
    pretty much the end of the exchange.  Carolyn, like me, has a very 
    difficult time with conflict like that, and with people being hostile 
    towards her so she went off and had a good cry.  But however small, her 
    gesture of reaching out to this stranger in sympathy and kindness, may 
    have had some type of healing affect on these people's lives.

    Leslie

    Thats beautiful Leslie, thanks for sharing.  I reminds me of one of
    Pastor's favorite stories.  Its good to remember when we feel like we
    can't make any difference in the world.  
    
    There was a little boy at the beach.  There were all these starfishes
    which were stranded up on the beach after the tide went out.  They were
    dying.  The little boy was taking them, one by one and putting them
    back into the water.  But there were millions of them and there was no
    way he could save them all.  His father pointed this out to him, and
    asked why he was trying at all, since the few he was able to rescue 
    didn't really make a difference.  The little boy pointed to the
    fish he just placed back in the water which was happily swimming away 
    and said, it makes a difference to this one.
    
    
    Jill
    

    Re .6
    
    I suppose the sense in which I us 'Christian culture' is really a
    subset of 'Christian culture', specifically the set of
    actions, beliefs, etc, of people in the church, which are probably more
    American (for one example) in origin, or have come from some sorce other
    than the bible.  I believe that Christians face a challenge of consciously
    separating that which is biblical from that which we have 'simply grown up
    with' or have adopted from popular culture into our own 'Christian culture'.
    I see folks justifying actions based on comfort/familarity with some
    concept that really has little biblical basis, and in many cases ones
    they acquired before they believed.
    
    I guess I see that as part of 'in not of'.
    
    Im not sure that is a great explanation, but I hope it helps...
    
    - Jim

    
    re .7
    
     hi Leslie.
    
         I wish things werent as complicated in life, as Christians, like
    some of the things you mentioned, but they are.