Conference yukon::christian_v7

    
    Hi Nancy,
    
    Japan and Singapore have no poverty at all.  Malaysia and Thailand have
    poor people but plenty of food to eat and economies developing at
    greater than +8% GDP annually (ours is growing at just 2% or so these
    days).
    
    jeff

    And to what do you attribute this wealth in Japan and Singapore?

    Interesting since for a long period of time in American history, its
    wealth was attributed to a country that was blessed by God.  The reason
    for its blessings was because of our allegiance to God.
    
    Nancy

    
    Well, it is clear that God has blessed even some of the pagan nations
    materially.  
    
    jeff

    Explain...what is a pagan nation and how do you attribute their
    blessings to God [Jehovah].

    and as an aside, many Christians both laymen and Pastors have
    attributed our country's decline due to a rejection of God.
    
    

    
    A pagan nation, in my own definition, is one who overwhelmingly 
    acknowledges and worships idols and who does not worship and acknowledge 
    the true God.
    
    All material and spiritual blessings are from God.  Though leaving much
    of the world in spiritual darkness He still blesses with food, good
    govt., families, medicine and so on.
    
    America certainly has been blessed both spiritually and materially,
    which has made her great in the past.  But as is obvious to all by now,
    America's light is dimming no matter how you want to measure it.
    
    jeff 

    Why are all material blessings from God?

	I could see that happening. Say it was a material possesion that had a
lesson attached to it? I could see it being from God. If money was the
possession, and it was shared, or even not shared, it could be from God. Both
would have a lesson attached to it. Whether the material thing is a good or bad
thing, He has a reason for your having it.


Glen

Hi Nancy,

>    Why are all material blessings from God?

Because God has said that He is the one who blesses with prosperity.  For
example, the Lord told Israel (recorded in Deuteronomy 28), "Now it shall
be if you will diligently obey the Lord your God, being careful to do all
His commandments which I command you today...And the LOrd will make you
abound in prosperity, in the offspring of your body and in the offspring
of your beast and in the produce of your ground...The Lord will open for
you His good storehouse, the heavens, to give rain to your land in its
season and to bless all the work of your hand; and you shall lend to many
nations, but you shall not borrow..."

He went on to describe the consequences of disobedience as well which was
a curse on their material well-being among other things.

Then in the New Testament we learn that the Lord provides food and clothing
and every good thing that we need and enjoy. 

jeff

    Would you say the promises in the previous note were to Christians or
    Non-Christians?

    I would say that through the promises, along with many other Scriptures 
    which are pointed toward believers and which are not, we know without a 
    doubt that the Lord provides for all of His creation and that His goodness
    and love extend even to the heathen, making them all the more guilty
    for their disobedience and idolatry.
    
    jeff

    You didn't answer my question though.  Was he speaking to believers or
    unbelievers?
    
    
    

    
    1st Party: "It is interesting to contemplate how it rains so much more
                near the Equator than it does in the U.S."
    
    2nd Party: "What makes you think that it rains more near the Equator
                than farther away?"
    
    1P: "Well, it rained almost constantly while I was near the Equator
         and the locals there told me how often it rained and the World Atlas, 
         my Almanac, and my geography lessons in school all taught that it
         rains more near the Equator than it does in places farther away
         from the Equator."
    
    2P: "But you didn't answer my question.  What makes you think that it
         rains more nearer the Equator than farther away?
    
    1P: "?"

    That FACT that you saw prosperous countries outside the Christian
    religion does not in FACT make it a blessing of God.  As a matter of
    fact, it goes contrary to the Word of God as I understand it.  I am
    asking at this minute a level so that I can either change my
    understanding or be affirmed in my understanding.  
    
    Either you are willing to discuss this is a way that will achieve this
    goal or you aren't.  But don't ridicule me for the sake of your lack of
    caring.
    
    Thank you,
    Nancy

>    That FACT that you saw prosperous countries outside the Christian
>    religion does not in FACT make it a blessing of God.  As a matter of
>    fact, it goes contrary to the Word of God as I understand it.
    
    Then you need to correct your understanding through the proper study of the
    Bible.
      
    >I am asking at this minute a level so that I can either change my
    >understanding or be affirmed in my understanding.  
    
    I don't think either is true.
    
    >Either you are willing to discuss this is a way that will achieve this
    >goal or you aren't.  
    
    I'm not willing.
    
    >But don't ridicule me for the sake of your lack of caring.
    
    I was not ridiculing you in any sense, Nancy.  My entry is simply a
    characterization of how I saw the progression.  
    
    jeff

    >  I'm not willing.
    
    Thank you for your honesty.
    

    Jesus said, "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to
    them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and
    persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in
    heaven: for He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and
    sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." (Mt.5:44-45, KJV)
    
    The Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, said unto all that are carried
    away captives, whom He caused to be carried away, "Build ye houses, and
    dwell in them; and plant gardens, and eat the fruit of them; Take ye
    wives, and beget sons and daughters; and take wives for your sons, and
    give your daughters to husbands, that they may bear sons and daughters;
    that ye may be increased there, and not diminished. And seek the peace
    of the city whither I have caused you to be carried away captives, and
    pray unto the Lord for it: for in the peace thereof shall ye have
    peace." (Je.29:5-7, KJV)
    
    "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down
    from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow
    of turning." (Ja.1:17, KJV)
    
    See Psalms 37 and 73.  Prosperity: Blessing or Curse?

>    Thank you for your honesty.
    
    You're welcome, Nancy.
    
    jeff
    

    Are there those who would doubt our decline?
    
    See Romans 1:18-2:10.
    
    God is the source of blessing on all men to lead us to repentance. 
    Believe Him and live, deny Him and die.
    
    God is no respecter of persons.
    
    Nancy, I think I know from whence you're coming, and I would agree that
    the sad state of affairs in our country has more to do with the sad
    state of the "righteous" than the wicked.
    
    On the other hand, God's will be done!

    Notes moved got discombobulated because of lack of moderator skills.
    
    Signed,
    Nancy, the Moderator that moved them. :-)

Notes undiscombobulated, according to my best memory.

But *MY* lack of moderator skills somehow lost the note of Nancy thanking
Wayne for contributing, and asking anyone else who desired to join in, which
should be here as response .21.

Carry on.

Paul

Hi Nancy,

>    That FACT that you saw prosperous countries outside the Christian
>    religion does not in FACT make it a blessing of God.  As a matter of
>    fact, it goes contrary to the Word of God as I understand it.  I am
>    asking at this minute a level so that I can either change my
>    understanding or be affirmed in my understanding.  

>    Nancy

I would like to recommend to you, for the sake of discussion of this
topic which you are interested in, that you positively state with
biblical support your "understand"ing as indicated above.  This will help
foster the discussion.

jeff

    RE: .24
    
    Actually, my note .8 was written in response to Nancy's missing note. 
    My note .19 was the one for which Nancy thanked me.
    
    /Wayne

    Jeff,
    
    My beliefs are open to further revelation by God through whatever venue
    it takes for me to hear His voice.  The Bible is certainly the plum
    line for all revelation, but it is not the only venue by which God will
    and does reveal Himself to me.
    
    I keep hearing from the pulpits across America, that this nation is in
    its peril because of God's people's lack of holiness and separation. 
    Perhaps what I keyed in on was the lack of holiness and separation and
    somehow silencing that it's God's people who own that not the lost.
    
    
    

    Nancy,
    
    You said explicitly that your understanding of the Word of God is
    contrary to my understanding.  But you have not stated what your
    understanding is and what Biblical texts form your understanding which
    is contrary to mine.
    
    I think you are mixing at least two topics into one.  Discussion
    probably should be divided into "Are non-Christian nations subject to
    God's blessings?", and, "Is America under the judgement of God?"
    
    jeff

      I heard fairly recently a young church member commenting on the
      experience some Chinese people had.  I forget the details, but,
      basically, they just recently had the oppurtunity to have entire
      Bibles and they *wept* because of this blessing.
    
      One guy showed a single page of a Bible and he exclaimed how it
      was all they had and I think they all had that single page memorized.
    
      Anyway, some of the people said they prayed that America could have
      the same persecution they had so that they could come to know much
      more significant revival.
    
      They saw persecution, in some cases, as a blessing and the lack 
      thereof, in some cases, as a curse for it was an impediment to
      blessing.   In that eyes were distracted from the Lord via their
      affluence, liberties, etc.
    
    							Tony

    Although I kinda got lost with the notes getting discombobulated (?), I
    would like to throw in my two cents. Seems like Nancy and Jeff are
    talking past each other. I humbly jump in to see if I can assist.
    
    As I understand it, Jeff is saying that God blesses both "Christian" as
    well as non-Christian nations. I agree (notwithstanding the problem of
    trying to define what a "Christian" nation is). If I read Wayne's
    postings (.8 and .19), correctly, he has already provided Scriptural
    support for this. I would also add Matt. 5:45, which says that God
    "makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the
    just and on the unjust." So based upon the Word, just because a country
    is blessed does not mean it's a Christian country.
    
    Of course, God does bestow blessings upon His people, but just because
    someone is getting blessed does not imply that that person is one of
    God's children. On the flip side, God also chastens His people.
    However, just because someone is getting blasted does not imply that
    that person is one of God's children either.
    
    In short, since God causes rain to fall on both the just and the unjust
    we have to look at more than the rainfall to determine whether someone
    is just.
    
    That all being said, I am of the opinion (especially after studying
    Romans 1) that God is indeed allowing the U.S. to feel the effects of
    His removing His blessing from us. It would be a neat thing to study
    Romans 1 here, but I believe the study would get censored before we
    finished it.
    
    Re .27 (Nancy)
    
>    The Bible is certainly the plum
>    line for all revelation, but it is not the only venue by which God will
>    and does reveal Himself to me.
    
    As your brother, I admonish you to please be exceedingly careful about
    this. Please! While God *may* choose to reveal Himself to us on an
    individual basis, the Bible is the only objective reliable source of
    truth we have available to us. Even a burning bush act could be
    performed by satan. Remember that 2 Pet. 1:20 tells us that "no
    prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation". Once we move
    away from the Bible we are becoming private interpreters - a very
    dangerous place to be. I'm sure I don't need to remind you of many
    folks who have accepted a lie because of some presumed word they had
    from the Lord.
    
    Re .28 (Jeff)    
    
>    I think you are mixing at least two topics into one.  Discussion
>    probably should be divided into "Are non-Christian nations subject to
>    God's blessings?", and, "Is America under the judgement of God?"
    
    Not a bad idea, but I can opine on both of these in one topic; in fact,
    I'd answer both questions with one word: yes.
    
    	BD�

    RE: .30
    
    Hi, Barry.
    
    You read my postings correctly.  But perhaps not thoroughly--note that
    I quoted Matthew 5:44&45 in note .19. :-)
    
    Seriously, though, Scripture seems to clearly show God blessing all
    men.  And I think Romans 2:4 reveals why.
    
    The problem comes in not looking beyond the blessing to credit the
    Blesser!
    
    /Wayne

      More $0.02...
    
      God sends the rain and the sun.
    
      "washed by the water of the WORD."
    
      "I am the LIGHT of the world."
    
      The principle meaning of the verse is that God sends revelations
      of His character to all mankind.  Romans 1 then becomes highly
      relevent.
    
    						Tony

    I suppose my confusion regarding this comes from being too myopically
    focused on the U.S.  I guess as I read the scriptures posted in
    this note, other than for the Matthew scripture, it just seems that the
    promises of blessings are towards the Christians...but then the key to
    that as you read on the blessing for the Christian comes with obedience
    to God.  
    
    It's good to sort these things out.  
    

    Barry,
    
    Thanks for your note.  Regarding your warning to me about God's
    revelations through other venues than the Bible;  once upon a time I
    felt as strongly abou this as do you now.  And I suppose you could say
    that we still do agree about the Bible's importance.  If the
    revelations I believe God is giving me through other avenues, i.e.,
    people, Christian magazine articles, the newspaper, etc., did not align
    with scripture then I would be in great peril.  I won't let "fear" of
    being wrong stop me from experiencing the fullness of Christ.  Praise
    God if what I believe to be God speaking to me is shown to be wrong,
    because I make these mistakes, I will learn to discern properly His
    voice.
    
    In Him,
    Nancy

    See the parable of the ten talents (Mt.25:14-46).  Nations seem
    accountable (see v. 32) through "the righteous" (see vs. 37 and 44).
    
    See also Luke 12:22-48, particularly v. 30.
    
    Good stuff for reading and meditation on the subject at hand. :-)

    
    So, since there is good Scriptural support for God blessing pagan
    nations, too, isn't this marvelous?!  Isn't God *gracious*?!!!! 
    His kindness is praiseworthy!!  His love and sovereignty is demonstrated 
    to all at all times in His creation!  And our sinfulness and subsequent
    condemnation is valid and just!  God's mercy and love in reconciling
    His own to Him by regenerating and giving faith in Him and forgiving
    sins seems even more beautiful when we contemplate His loving
    stewardship of His creation!
    
    This realm is beautiful and God's designs are awesome.  The thought of
    Him in His glory and us with Him in glory makes one awestruck!
    
    jeff

    RE: .36
    
    Amen, Jeff!
    
    And may we who know God by His grace glorify Him as God and be
    thankful.
    
    /Wayne

      re: -2
    
      I'm sorry Jeff, but within your view, I can't see it *at all*.
    
      Say God predestined me to be lost.  But, He also 'graced' me
      to (perhaps) be a millionaire and live 70 years of relative
      ease and luxury (although in reality there is no real peace 
      in sin).
    
      So while I writhe in unspeakable eternal torment (though I
      personally do not believe this), I ought praise Him for his
      graciousness that He has extended toward me???  All the while
      He also 'extended' my eternal pathetic torturous state for me
      as well???
    
      I guess I think differently than you do Jeff.  
    
    							Tony

    The "problem" boils down to how men who hold the truth in
    unrighteousness may be without excuse, i.e., when will that which may
    be known of God be manifest to accomplish the purpose for which the
    Word was sent.
    
    My impressions are that Tony believes the invisible things of God from
    the creation of the world can be clearly seen by all men (both just and
    unjust), and men who thus see God can choose to either glorify Him as God
    and be thankful or not credit God and become vain in their imaginations
    unto their hearts being darkened, while Jeff believes the hearts of all
    men are darkened from the beginning such that God can only be seen by
    those whose eyes He chooses to open.
    
    Thus, Tony holds that men are without excuse by choice, while Jeff
    holds that men are without excuse by God's design and decree.
    
    Would Tony and Jeff agree that God need not vindicate Himself, but by
    grace in mercy He will when Truth is fully revealed, i.e., when we see
    Jesus as He is?
    
    "For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God Himself that
    formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not
    in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none
    else. I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said
    not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the Lord speak
    righteousness, I declare things that are right. Assemble yourselves and
    come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have
    no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto
    a god that cannot save. Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them
    take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who
    hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God
    else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look
    unto me, and be ye savied, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and
    there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the Word is gone out of my
    mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee
    shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Surely He shall say of me, In the
    Lord is all righteousness and strength: even to Him shall men come; and
    all that are incensed against Him shall be ashamed. In the Lord shall
    all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory." (Is.45:18-25,
    KJV)
    
    Barnabus and Paul preached that men "should turn from these vanities
    unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all
    things that are therein: Who in times past suffered all nations to walk
    in their own ways. Nevertheless He left not Himself without witness, in
    that He did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons,
    filling our hearts with food and gladness." (Ac.14:15b-17, KJV)
    
    /Wayne

     Hi Wayne,

>    The "problem" boils down to how men who hold the truth in
>    unrighteousness may be without excuse, i.e., when will that which may
>    be known of God be manifest to accomplish the purpose for which the
>    Word was sent.
    
>    My impressions are that Tony believes the invisible things of God from
>    the creation of the world can be clearly seen by all men (both just and
>    unjust), and men who thus see God can choose to either glorify Him as God
>    and be thankful or not credit God and become vain in their imaginations
>    unto their hearts being darkened, while Jeff believes the hearts of all
>    men are darkened from the beginning such that God can only be seen by
>    those whose eyes He chooses to open.

I would characterise "The problem" this way (as well as modify your
impression of my belief above):

The Bible teaches that all men are without excuse in their rebellion against
God because the invisible things of God from the creation world can be clearly
seen by all men and point to some obligation on man's part which man (all of
us) have rebelled against, worshiping other gods and breaking God's laws.
Man's rebellion is simply a reflection of his spiritual status - dead in
trespasses and sin.

God saves sinners, giving the gift of faith and repentance.  With this 
rebirth (salvation) comes the opening of spiritual eyes which acknowledge
and praise their living Lord and Savior.

I do not expect unbelievers to acknowledge and praise God.  But I will not
    stifle my own praises at His goodness, kindness, and mercy in providing
    so beautifully for His creation!

jeff

Hi, Jeff.

| I would characterise "The problem" this way (as well as modify your
| impression of my belief above):

| The Bible teaches that all men are without excuse in their rebellion against
| God because the invisible things of God from the creation world can be clearly
| seen by all men and point to some obligation on man's part which man (all of
| us) have rebelled against, worshiping other gods and breaking God's laws.
| Man's rebellion is simply a reflection of his spiritual status - dead in
| trespasses and sin.

** So, your answer is that men are without excuse because the invisible things
   of God from creation can be clearly seen and point to some obligation on
   man's part against which we have rebelled.

   How does man feel or know that obligation to which God's manifestation
   points?  Or are you saying God simply designed man to rebel and we need not
   be aware of that rebellion in order to be called a rebel/sinner?

| God saves sinners, giving the gift of faith and repentance.  With this 
| rebirth (salvation) comes the opening of spiritual eyes which acknowledge
| and praise their living Lord and Savior.

** Is this when we become aware of our obligation?

| I do not expect unbelievers to acknowledge and praise God.  But I will not
| stifle my own praises at His goodness, kindness, and mercy in providing so
| beautifully for His creation!

** I assume you would not expect unbelievers to acknowledge and praise God
   because they are unable to do so.

   As to not stifling my own praises for the work of God that I see/know,
   AMEN and AMEN!!  I assume you hold that we offer our own praises because He
   enables us to do so.

/Wayne

    re: .40
    
    YOU GOT IT WAYNE!
    
    I really had to respond to Jeff.  There may be silent readers
    here who echo the same concerns.
    
    I see no reason for a lost person to thank God for anything.
    Were I forced to be lost and be consigned to eternal misery, I 
    would BEG for God to bless me by allowing me to cease to exist.
    
    At the very least bless me with that!
    
    We love Him.  Why?
    
    Because He loved us.  (1 John somewhere)
    
    That is the ONLY thing that enables us to love God.
    
    If God also loves the lost, this must imply the lost could have
    loved Him for the only reason we love is that He loves us.  That
    is what enables.
    
    Thus, somehow, even the lost are enabled to respond to that
    love (though they do not).
    
    Unless of course you believe that God does not love the lost.
    
    It really gets down to His character, doesn't it?
    
    I maintain that God IS love.
    
    He loves the lost.  Thus they COULD HAVE loved Him.
    
    (That is all that enables me to love Him - His love for me.)
    
    						Tony
                    

      I just had one other thought.  It is true that we should all be
      thankful to God, is it not?
    
      Let us assume the position that God:
    
      1) Willed the existence of the lost.
    
      2) Made them have to start out being lost.
    
      3) Made them have to remain lost.
    
      4) Made them have to forever be lost in eternal torment.
    
    
      For what should the lost give thanks to God?
    
      **OR**
    
      Supposing they have nothing to be thankful for...
    
      How can it be that God loves them?  Does He love them?  Shouldn't
      His love *FOR* them manifest something we can point to for which
      they should be thankful to Him???
    
      I eagerly await the answers from any of this position.
    
    						Thanks In Advance!
    
    						Tony

    
    Hi Tony,
    
    Your assumptions are not biblical and do not represent anyone's
    position here as far as I can tell.  Therefore, there's no reason to
    pursue that line of thinking and its logical conclusions.
    
    jeff

    Hi, Jeff.
    
    I think you too easily dismiss Tony's arguing the depths of God's Love.
    
    A solid Scriptural base exists for holding that God loves the whole
    world, both the just(ified) and the unjust(ified), even though few are
    saved.
    
    The articulation of your own belief might lead some to conclude that God
    in fact does not love the lost, flying directly in the face of what
    Scripture seemingly says.
    
    /Wayne

    
    Hi Wayne,
    
    I think everyone here and all evangelicals everywhere would be
    well-served by reassessing the concept of God's love in light of the
    whole counsel of God contained in the Bible.  It is hard, if not
    impossible, to reconcile the common belief concerning God's love for
    humanity with the biblical description of God's love and God's wrath.
    
    This is a digression though.  The assumptions Tony starts out with are
    not indicative of biblical doctrines and therefore there's no
    need to pursue a discussion on it.  Don't you agree?
    
    jeff

      Hi Jeff,
    
        You have never stated whether or not God loves the lost.
        
        Why not?
    
        Or, if you have, I am sorry I missed it and would you cite 
        a reply #???
    
        I don't accept your words on the basis that they are assertions.
        I believe I am offering valid thoughts that basically point
        to what I see as one inescapable conclusion which is this:
    
        Your sovereignty position requires that God DOES NOT love the
        lost.  Indeed it would be more accurate to say that He HATES
        the lost.
    
        The depths that I am trying to plumb lie in the area of what
        it means that "God *IS* love."
    
        By the way Wayne, thanks!
    
    							Tony
                                                                   

      re: .47
      
      Hi Jeff,
    
        I believe it would be more accurate to say that the assumptions
        I am making are not indicative of your interpretations of the
        Bible.
    
        I am not intending to throw out the Bible rather I am intending
        to cherish it with every fiber of my being!!!
    
    	Amen for the WORD of God!!!!
    
    							Tony

    Hi, Jeff.
    
    Yes, I agree that the four assumptions Tony lists in .44 are not
    Scripturally-based.  And I'm sure he would concur.
    
    But, my impression is that Tony entered those assumptions because he
    believes they derive at least in part from (his understanding of) your
    view.  In other words, I think Tony feels the listed assumptions reflect
    your view of God's sovereignty regarding the lost.
    
    Perhaps if you were to show how each assumption is antithetical to
    sound doctrine, then further discussion might lead us into truth.
    
    Your call.  What seems obvious to us might not be to others.
    
    /Wayne

      Just to let you know...I am out until Sunday morning.
    
      I have no reticence with continuing this dialogue until
      such a time somebody even begins to accomadate this view
      with a semblance of what it means that "God is love."
    
      Directly asserting that God simply does not love the lost
      would suffice for me.
    
      We could then agree to disagree.
    
      Regardless, I'll be back.
    
    						Tony

Re 894.44 - Hi Tony!

�      I just had one other thought.  It is true that we should all be
�      thankful to God, is it not?
    
What's your book/chapter/verse on this one ???? ;-)

Is it Psalm 150:6 ?
	- In which case, they should be praising Him for that self same breath!

Is it Psalm 148:1-5 ?
	- In which case, they should be praising Him that they were created.

Is it Psalm 148:7-13 ? (which gets closest!)
	- Where they should be praising Him for His character and 
	  characteristics - His supreme perfection greatness, splendour, 
	  glory, even as it is reflected in His creation!


�      Let us assume the position that God:

Veeerrrrrry dangerous.  And of questionable validity.  Only assume a 
position where you can give Biblical justification for it.
    
�      1) Willed the existence of the lost.
    
Basically flawed premise.  He willed the existance of perfect man, as at 
the completion of each day of creation He saw that it was 'good'.  By His 
perfect and ultimate standards.  Part of that perfection designed into man 
was the love potential.  The ability to choose God.  Choice is only valid
if you can choose 'not to'.  The fall was man's corporate choosing not to.

So God willed the existance of mankind.  It was mankind who willed the
'lost' part. 

�      2) Made them have to start out being lost.

Another flawed premise.  Mankind got himself into this state.  God provided
the way out.  But as He didn't want to be a dictator; - mutual love is a
vital element in His plan - He doesn't force anyone to accept salvation.  
He's not into making robots.
    
�      3) Made them have to remain lost.

Tony, this one astounds me, coming from you!!!!  Who provided salvation?  
- took every step of the way, sweated in the garden, was jeered and sneered 
at by the soldiers, the Pharisees, the crowd, while He had indescribable 
suffering inflicted on Him, culminating in the most torturous, public death 
man could devise...!

And did it for ordinary, lost members of the rebellion.  You and me.  So 
that just for the asking, we could know , not just a forgiveness which
would dispose of guilt and punishment, but also gives an unimaginable bliss
of being one with Him for eternity! 

I was lost, but He made me free.  And all you can say is

	"Made them have to remain lost."

The fact that many refuse that gift is not the fault of our LORD.

The very fact that it is still the day of salvation 'today', is because he 
is giving people room for repentance and salvation!

2 Peter 3:9

  The LORD is not slow in keeping His promise, as some understand slowness.  
  He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come 
  to repentance.

Only when everyone who wil has enterd the door is it closed.

�      4) Made them have to forever be lost in eternal torment.

You are slanting this question very unfairly towards a merciful God. In
order to understand what 'eternal torment' means, you need to understand
the eternal nature of the soul, and the signficance of rejection of God. 
These deal with eternal entities, which is out of reach of the temporal
mind.  There comes a stage where you have to take on faith that the Judge 
of all the earth _shall_ do right.

If you look at the response of the lost to the return of the LORD Jesus
(for instance in Matthew 24:30, Revelation 6:16-17), you will see that His
presence means intense distress to them.  Not because they realise that they 
are wrong; not because they desire His righteousness, but because they 
still don't want His righteousness to be imposed upon them, not even in 
judgement.  In fact, they want to continue enjoying the blessings he has 
heaped upon them, of physical life, health, food, the enjoyment of beauty, 
and other pleasurable inputs to the senses, without ever turning to face 
the source of these glorious benefits.

However, these physical blessings are temporal, and at His return the time 
has come for their removal in order to bring sinning and decay to its
rightful planned conclusion, and so that the eternal order can take full
preeminence.  The only place remaining for the lost is the only place they
could bear, which is outside God's presence, outside the heavenly blessings
He delighted to bestow on man.  In fact, it is the outer darkess of eternal 
burning.

�      For what should the lost give thanks to God?
    
Back to where we started? ;-)

In this world are many temporal blessings which God bestows on lost and 
saved alike.  You could start with Genesis 1, and Genesis 8:22

You could continue with Genesis 4:15, where God protects Cain from the 
immediate judgement he deserves.  In the same way, all of us 'in Adam' 
deserved immediate judgement - but He has sustained us for thousands of
years under His blessing as per Colossians 1:17, Hebrews 1:3.  

And this is even before we get onto the point that God is worthy of praise 
and worship, even from the lost, purely for Who He is.  The phrase 'Give 
glory to God' may have been a solemn call to tell the truth, but that very 
truth is witness to God as the fount of righteousness.  So, Achan, in 
rebellion, and confessing how he had disobeyed God's command, 'gave glory 
to God', in Judges 7:19-21.  Not because it had any material spin-off for 
himself - it didn't get him off immediate punishment - BUT, as part of 
creation, he was glorifying his Creator by his existance...

�      **OR**
    
�      Supposing they have nothing to be thankful for...
    
False premise.

�      How can it be that God loves them?  Does He love them?  Shouldn't
�      His love *FOR* them manifest something we can point to for which
�      they should be thankful to Him???

I think I have spelled these out above.  At least, it seems to point round 
the loop again, to me ... ;-)

�      I eagerly await the answers from any of this position.

I hope this helps to assuage the tension, Tony ;-)

Sorry if I have merely duplicated material which has been covered earlier - 
I haven't _much_ time for extra noteing these days, and this opportunity 
was a luxury partially due to a PC upgrade...  Tony just happened to 
benefit.  Or lose ;-)

						God bless
								Andrew

    Er, Andrew, as I said, I don't think the four assumptions listed by
    Tony are his own.  He was arguing AGAINST a position built on those
    assumptions!
    
    /Wayne

I *think* that you've misunderstood Tony, Andrew.  I'm sure Tony will correct
me when he gets back if I've misrepresented him.

He's responding to the absolute-sovereignty position, in which everything is
determined by God, and the lost DO NOT have the choice to not be lost.  That
they are not part of the elect and are thus unavoidably lost is entirely
God's decision.  I don't want to claim that these sentences are an exact
representation of the position, but it is this basic understanding that Jeff
(and others, but largely Jeff) have been putting forth in this and other
notes.  Tony doesn't believe the 'claims' made in his note, they are his
understanding of Jeff's position.  They don't make any sense to Tony either,
which is why he's bringing this up.

Jeff has said that those assumptions don't represent his position, but hasn't
yet said why, which is what I think Tony is looking for.

I think that's where we are at the moment.

Paul

Thanks folks - I was going from Tony's historic dialogue...

							Andrew

      re: -1
    
      Andrew, you must not know my historic dialogue very well then.
      I have never even hinted at such 'suppositions' which I believe
      are entirely demonic.  But, I'll take a reference.
    
      Jeff, silence sometimes has a deafening ring to it.
    
      Wayne, Paul, thanks.  As typical, you grasped well what I tried
      to convey.  
    
      Care to type in my replies??!
    
      By the way, I think the four things I listed are entirely consistent
      with Daryl's and Jill's view and I sure hope they respond and tell
      me otherwise!    But, alas, I kind of don't think so...
    
    							Tony

re.56

Hi Tony,

Even though Andrew misunderstood "who believed what" (you sorta brought
that upon yourself by the style you used), nevertheless the content of his
reply addressed your basic question. Perhaps you only want to debate the 
point, but if not, you may want to take a closer look at Andrew's reply.
Within it is the balanced view of God as both Love and Righteous. Do you
agree?

Regards,
Ace 

      Hi Ace,
    
        No, I don't agree.  Love and righteousness are equivalents.
        Love = righteousness.   So sure I agree that God is love
        and righteous, but I take it that you imply they are different
        things?
    
        To be honest, I stopped reading Andrew's reply after a couple
        screens as it so misunderstood mine, but after your posting
        I read it in its entirety.
    
        Judgment is inherent (see Psalm 7 as one example).
    
        There is a reality whose existence is implicit in the character 
        of God.  Because God is love, His intelligent creation was given 
        the attribute of moral perception, i.e. they can see a wrong act 
        and a right act and perceive the difference.
    
        There is a law of perceptual reality.  Extreme contrast in perception
        is painful.  This law applies in the spiritual domain.
    
        A lost person, when beholding God unveiled, will see the full
        evil of his character.  (This is what the mirror does; it reveals
        who we are.)  They will bear the guilt that naturally results,
        which guilt is entirely inherent to this spiritual reality as
    	pertains to the revelation to them of their own character.
    
        They lack the faith to believe in a pardoning Saviour and thus
        will give in to the blackness of despair.  This despair will be
        so vast as to cause their ultimate destruction.
    
        Inherent penalty exclusively as a result of a spiritual reality
        implicit in the character of God - perfect unconditional love.
    
        I thought Andrew's points were excellent save I believe he mistakes
        by believing there is something in agape which requires punishing
        above and beyond the inherent.  (And the underlying heart-motive
        of God for their inherent destruction is for the saved to be sealed
        by this revelation as to the awfulness of sin.  Outside of what
        this revelation does for the saved, I believe God would have given
        them an entirely painless destruction.  But, it serves a purpose
        by sealing the hearts of the saved in such a way that they will
        never shoose sin again.)
    
        I also disbelieve the idea that anyone has intrinsic immortality.  
        Eternal life is a gift.  "Only God has immortality."  (one of the 
        Timothy's)
    
        My aim IS NOT to argue points for the sake of arguing points.  My
        aim is exclusively to raise a right conception of the character
        of God to the skies!
    
    					Take Care and God Bless,
    
    					Tony
               

    Hi Tony,
    
    I was trying to avoid this conversation, but since you seem to be using
    my name in vain :-), I guess I will respond in the same vein.
    
    re: .44
    
    > Lets assume that ...
    > Why should the lost give thanks to God?
    
    Simply because He *is* God.  Isn't that why everyone praises God?
    
    
    > How can it be that God loves the lost?
    
    Have you drunk from His cup of tears?  I haven't, but I bet it contains
    the answer.
    
    
    
    Jill
    
    

    
>    > How can it be that God loves the lost?
    
 

    For God so loved the world...
    While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us...



 Jim    
    

Hi Tony,

By 'historic dialogue', I referred to your manner of discussion rather than
to a specific theological stance.  Given your way of playing devil's
advocate (if you'll excuse the term! ;-), I started from there to lay down
some basics. 

							Andrew 

      OK Andrew.  I AGREE with you 100%
    
      I had to smile when I read your reply!
    
      I don't care for the term either, but I have an intense
      propensity to see holes in lines of reasoning.
    
      By the way,have I ever told you I really appreciate you?
    
    					Take Care Brother,
    
    					Tony

      re: .60
    
      Hi Jill,
    
        Gee, you did not address the 4 suppositions I made which I
        believe necessarily flow from your view!  Care to remain 
        silent?  I will then conclude they do indeed emanate from
        your view.
    
        Fair enough?
    
        I disagree with your statement - in a sense.
    
        You say "because He is God."  And I take it that your 
        basis is that He is God regardless of the character that
        is our Lord's.  Just that He's God period without any
        relevence to the character of God.
    
        When Moses asked to see GOD, God replied that He would
        show Moses His name.
    
        GOD IS LOVE.
    
        Your view, and correct me if I am wrong, is able to remove
        the LOVE from "GOD IS" and without that love, just uphold 
        the God and say, "There, because of just that, praise Him."
    
        In fact, your view REQUIRES that the love part is gutted out
        of the equation (I believe) for by fruit we know love and if
        God made the lost be lost, there is no fruit indicating God
        loved the lost.
    
        It will be revealed that God did all He could to save the lost.
    
        My view is that you cannot separate "GOD" from "IS LOVE."
    
        We love because He loved us.  We praise because we love.
    
        If you can show me how it is God loves the lost (with your view),
        I will concede that the lost ought to praise Him.
    
        And I will once again expound.
    
        God to lost person A (assuming your view):
    
        "I created you.  You can't do anything about it!"
    
        "I decided for you to be entirely wretched.  You can't do anything
         about that either!"
    
        "I decided that you will remain entirely wretched.  You can't
         do anything about that either!"
    
        "I decided that you will live forever and suffer eternal conscious
         torment.  You can't do anything about that either!"
    
        "NOW LOVE ME BECAUSE I LOVE YOU.  AND PRAISE ME BECAUSE YOU LOVE
    	 ME."
    
        Do I portray things fairly?  Care to explain?  Will your
        explanation satisfy any kind of the rational capabilities God
        blessed us with?
    
    						    Tony
         

      re: .61
    
      I agree with you Jim.  You know that, right?
    
      I am playing 'devil's advocate' with a certain view of
      who God is.
    
      (one which I do not agree with)
    
    					Tony

    Tony!
    
    My view does NOT require omitting love from God's character!
    That makes no sense.  Why would I want to worship a creature
    like that?  I'd rather just die.  Why bother living?  What
    would the point be?
    
    Our God is love.  He also has many other characteristics.  But mostly
    He is just worthy of our worship.  Look again at the chapter in Revelation
    which describes all the creatures in His presence, and all they can
    think to do is to worship Him always.
    
    He is Love, He is Sovereign, He is my Lord and God, and I love Him.
    
    
    Jill

    "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and He said, Thus shalt thou
    say unto the children of Israel (when they ask, What is His name?), I AM
    hath sent me unto you." (Ex.3:13&14)
    
    "GOD IS LIGHT, and in Him is no darkness at all." (1Jn.1:5b)
    
    "GOD IS LOVE; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in
    him." (1Jn.4:16b)
    
    "And this is His commandment, That we should believe on the name of His
    Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment. And
    he that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him. And
    hereby know that He abideth in us, by the Spirit which He hath given
    us." (1Jn.3:23&24)
    
    Moses besought the Lord to show him His glory.  And the Lord said, "I
    will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the
    name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be
    gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. And He said,
    Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."
    (Ex.33:18-20)
    
    "And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord
    God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and
    truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and
    transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty;
    visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the
    children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation."
    (Ex.34:6&7)
    
    God said, "I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity
    of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation
    of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that
    love me, and keep my commandments." (Ex.20:5b&6)
    
    "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord,
    which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." (Re.1:8)
    
    "The Lord is high above all nations, and His glory above the heavens."
    (Ps.113:4)
    
    "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God
    is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth Him,
    and worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him." (Ac.10:34&35)

    Let me share a testimony of one of my friends.  She was a missionary in
    Japan, right out of college.  After a year she got very sick and wound
    up in the hospital and then got sent back to the states.  They finally
    diagnosed her with a fatal degenerative disease similar to MS.  She
    told me that God told her back in the hospital in Japan that He would
    heal her.  But she just got sicker and sicker.  This disease was
    extreamly painful too.  The whole nervous system decays and caused
    intense pain.  After 5 1/2 years she was in a wheel chair, the pain
    medication was no longer effective, and there was no medical hope for
    her.  Then the Lord healed her instantly.  She tells how she started to
    walk up and down her appartment, then run in joy.  She says she can't
    remember how many times she ran back and forth praising the Lord.  It
    took about a month but now she is totally healed.  Her testimony is
    documented totally.  You can see her doctor's records.  None of the
    doctors can explain what happened.  She says that just walking up to
    her friends puts them in tears.  
    
    So Tony, why did God cause her to suffer like this for so long?  
    Is that love?
    
    Explain love.
    
    
    Jill
    

  Hi Jill,

    I'll explain.

    When God created the intelligent order He created, HE DID NOT
    make Satan sin.  But, He FOREKNEW it.  Remember, election is
    according to foreknowledge, right?  (Although I know you disagree
    as you maintain it is according to more than all-knowingness.)

    God knew sin would enter the universe.

    Essentially, there are two possibilities (superficially speaking
    as there is really only one).

     1) Let sin immediately destroy the sinner.
        Had God not immediately veiled some of His glory from Satan,
        sin would have crushed him.  The rest of the unfallen universe,
        not realizing the WHY or HOW of what took place would have
        begun to serve God out of fear.

        This is an unacceptable existence for God to burden His creation
        with.

     2) Devise a plan where *ultimately* the entire universe has every
	opurtunity to serve Him and that sees by revelation the good
	of good and the evil of evil.

	And this is what God did.  HE MUST allow the full fruit of sin
	to manifest itself (as well as the full fruit of righteousness).

	Think on this.  No one is without excuse.  All who choose to serve
	God will have an eternity of joy such that the small season of
	pain is insignificant.  (Sort of like finite divided by infinity
   	equals zero.)

	I don't know the necessity of every detail regarding pain, BUT 
	in the general sense, I know that ALL pain has sin as its source.
	And I know that God had to allow sin to be fully manifested as
	a revelation of how evil it is.  This existence of sin also allowed
	for the corresponding demonstration of the love of God as a response
	to the sin problem.  The life of Christ including the cross.


     This is my explanation for why the woman had a life that included so
     much pain.  God submits evidence to intelligent minds.  He had to
     allow the existence of sin in order for the necessary revelation of
     both its awfulness *and* of His goodness to be seen by His intelligent
     universe.

     This two-fold revelation seals God's followers from ever touching sin
     again.  God is simply too good and sin is simply too bad.  Though choice
     is never denied them, they simply never choose to sin again.

     That woman is a living microcosm of the needed reality that bears out 
     all of the above.  (Which bearing out is an act of complete unconditional
     love.)

     OK, I directly and immediately answered you.

     Will you now answer me?  Will you tell me whether or not God loves 
     the lost with your view and fully explain how this is so?  Will you
     explicitly state whether or not I was accurate in my assessment of
     God's posture toward the lost (according to your view)?

     I merely ask your honesty and candidness.  You asked from me and I
     offered - immediately.

     You have delayed, but I hope its only that (delay).

						Tony

      I've waited for weeks for a direct answer to the main thrust
      of my concerns.
    
      Should I assume I will not be allowed to have one???
    
    						Tony

    Hi, Tony.
    
    Jill might say that she was lost, that God loved her while she was a
    sinner, and that she now is found.
    
    Would that not be personal experience of how God loves the lost? :-)
    
    /Wayne

    Really Tony!  I don't want to just throw together a message.  
    I need some time to prayerfully consider.  I will try to
    answer.  Please be patient with me.
        
    Jill
    

    While I'm thinking, what do you think of Wayne's answer?

    What does Luke 15:4-10 say about God's heart regarding the lost?

 If it wasn't for God loving me when I was lost, how could He have drawn
 me to Him for salvation?

    re: .73
    
    Irrelevent as pertains to your view.  In terms of your view, I
    ask about the 'destined to be lost.'
    
    Wayne's answer referred to the elect.
    
    Why couldn't you see that???
    
        					Tony

    re: .74
    
    Sounds like a God who is trying to save everyone!  The lost seems
    pretty inclusive to me.
    
    						Tony

    Hi Tony,
    
    I am just human.  I try to follow Jesus.  I don't always succeed at
    that.  I am human.  I think I've finally given up my secret hope of
    sometime becoming God.  I think I can just be with Him and that is just
    right.  You ask me to speak for God.  To explain His unknowable love.
    How can anyone do this?  On top of that, you ask for me to explain this
    using this so limited medium.  Saints have spent a whole lifetime
    prayerfully meditating on His love.  (I think I have been setup! :-) ) 
    
    You ask, How can God love the lost knowing that they are lost?  God is
    the creator.  He created everyone.  He lovingly created every aspect of
    us.  He walks with us and molds and shapes us.  He provides for us.  He
    loves us so much He sent his only son as an attoning sacrifice for us.  
    
    You said:
         That woman is a living microcosm of the needed reality that bears out 
         all of the above.  (Which bearing out is an act of complete 
         unconditional love.)
      
    Just as it is hard for our human minds to grasp how a loving God could
    allow one of His saints to suffer like this, it even harder to grasp
    how a loving God could allow someone to be created knowing before hand
    that that person would not be saved.  But just because we can't grasp
    it doesn't make it untrue.  Maybe as I grow more like Him I will
    understand.  
    
    You ask if the four assumptions you posted in .44 are true.  I really
    don't know.  I wasn't there at the beginning, I wasn't there at the
    end.  If I knew I would love to share it all.  
    
    What I do know now is that He *is* God.  He loves me and I will follow
    Him.  Its more than that.  I need to follow Him because I have so
    little strength of my own, I have no righteousness of my own.  I can no
    longer deny these truths so I rely on Him.  All He asks in return is to 
    love Him and to obey Him.  He is the Sovereign Lord, once I know this 
    how could I even desire to do otherwise?
        
    
    Jill

 Why are we dealing with this question, anyway?

      re: .78
    
      Hi Jill,
    
        I have NO problem with God knowing some would end up lost
        (and yet creating them) though I would vehemently disagree
        that He makes them remain alive forever.
    
        You stated to me that God MAKES the lost have to be lost.
        That is, that because of the way in which God CHOSE to
        'design' them, the lost had no possibility of choosing
        Him instead of condemnation.  In conversation you have told me
        that they never ever could have chosen otherwise than to
        be lost BECAUSE OF GOD'S CHOICE FOR THEM.
    
        None of your reply echoed this.
    
        I am in almost complete agreement with you if you believe
        the lost WERE ENABLED to choose God by God's choice in how
        He created them.  (And somehow they could thwart this choice -
        see Matt. 23:37 as an example of a people thwarting God's
        will for them.)
    
        I am in almost complete disagreement with you if you believe
        the lost WERE MADE to not be able to choose God by God's
        choice in how He created them.
    
        The distinction I put forth in the above two paragraphs was
        not clarified in your reply, but *was* clarified in past
        conversation.
    
        Can you confront it?
    
        So far as "explaining His unknowable love" is concerned, the
        apostle Paul prayed for us...
    
        Eph. 3:14-21
    
        and in the context of this text, think on verse 20.  (Please!)
    
        Finally, I believe there is a subtle fault in your reasoning.
        One which seems to suggest it is 'bad' or 'evil' to want to
        cry out for wisdom.  Like it is impossible to both
        want to know more about God's goodness and (at the same time)
        be entirely content being His servant (and not like God).
    
        That's a BAD path to take.  Paul prays for something different.
    
        God LONGS for us to know His ways a lot more than we do.
    
    						Tony
                     

  Quoting .76
    
    Irrelevent as pertains to your view.  In terms of your view, I
    ask about the 'destined to be lost.'
    
    Wayne's answer referred to the elect.
    
    ***Why couldn't you see that???***
    
    I'm really sorry I said this.  Please forgive me!
    
        					Tony
                                                     

      re: .79
    
      Hi Jim,
    
        Eph. 3:14-21.
    
        To clarify, magnify, and learn to convey agape!
    
        Fair enough?
    
    					Tony

  Re: .78

    Hi Jill, 

    >Saints have spent a whole lifetime prayerfully meditating on His love.
    
     Ahhh, but the saints in the last generation will know as no previous
     saint has known.  (Eph 3:14-21 and beyond).  Reading beyond you'll
     see the result being a wrinkle free bride presented to Christ.

     They need to know in order to be wrinkle-free!!!

     How He longs for us to know.

    >You ask, How can God love the lost knowing that they are lost?  God is
    >the creator.  He created everyone.  He lovingly created every aspect of
    >us.  He walks with us and molds and shapes us.  He provides for us.  He
    >loves us so much He sent his only son as an attoning sacrifice for us.  
    
     Who is the US here?  Does the US include the lost?  Did Christ die for
     them?  Does God TRY to mold them?
 
     There are those of Jeff's persuasion who believe in what is called a
     LIMITED ATONEMENT.  That is God, from the beginning, only atoned for
     the sins of the 'elect.'  The Father never gave the Son to all of 
     humanity, only to the elect.

     The main point I am making is, I'd sure like to know your view of who
     the US are.  What is the relevence (to what I wrote) if Jesus never died
     for those who won't accept the sacrifice, i.e. if God never did all He 
     could to reach the lost?

     Can you appreciate what I'm saying?
      
    >it even harder to grasp
    >how a loving God could allow someone to be created knowing before hand
    >that that person would not be saved.  But just because we can't grasp
    >it doesn't make it untrue.  Maybe as I grow more like Him I will
    >understand.  
    
     Ahh, the "does omniscience IMPLY predestination" quandary!  This one
     I FREELY confess to being WAY beyond my mental capabilities.  This
     I have entirely given to God!

     I believe even though He knew, He did all He could to save.  And they
     could still choose Him.  And I freely acknowledge not being able to 
     explain!

     Could this be a spiritual block for you?

     Surrender it to the Lord!  Perhaps it is possible that God can know
     and yet they can choose all at the same time and in your finiteness,
     you will never fathom the harmony behind this seeming quandary.

     I have entirely surrendered this quandary to the Lord.  I NEED NOT
     KNOW (UNDERSTAND)!!!  Are you surprised???     

     :-)    :-)

    >You ask if the four assumptions you posted in .44 are true.  I really
    >don't know.  I wasn't there at the beginning, I wasn't there at the
    >end.  If I knew I would love to share it all.  
    
    I don't think being at the beginning or the end is a necessary prere-
    quisite to knowing this.  After all...I wasn't there either, and I 
    KNOW!!!

    Isn't that wonderful???

    The answer is:

    God enabled them to choose Him.  And they thwarted His enabling.  He
    did ALL HE COULD.  Yes, Jesus died for them.  And God loves them 
    immeasurably and unconditionally, but they will perish by their choice.

    >What I do know now is that He *is* God.  He loves me and I will follow
    >Him.  Its more than that.  I need to follow Him because I have so
    >little strength of my own, I have no righteousness of my own.  I can no
    >longer deny these truths so I rely on Him.  All He asks in return is to 
    >love Him and to obey Him.  He is the Sovereign Lord, once I know this 
    >how could I even desire to do otherwise?
     
    AMEN!  (I echo 100% agreement with this!)

    I perceive that I have pained you.  I will dialogue on this (with you)
    no longer unless you ask.  I need not discuss this with you anymore!

    I don't want you in pain.  (Unless it be for His glory.)

						Luv You,

						Tony

   I thought the following thing I wrote was unclear...

     >The main point I am making is, I'd sure like to know your view of who
     >the US are.  What is the relevence (to what I wrote) if Jesus never died
     >for those who won't accept the sacrifice, i.e. if God never did all He 
     >could to reach the lost?

     >Can you appreciate what I'm saying?

     All I meant was that my concern with your view is not with the saved,
     its with the lost.  (Yes, I am very very concerned about how your
     view impacts a right conception of God's loving posture toward the
     lost.)

     My sole point being if the US in your reply did not refer, in part, 
     to the lost, it wasn't at all relevent to what my concerns have been
     (throughout).

     I did say my last reply was probably my last reply, but I felt a need
     to clarify as this seemed really confusing to me.  And if confusing
     to me (the author - and not a very good one!), probably impossible
     to others.

							Tony

Hi Tony,
        
    >    No, I don't agree.  Love and righteousness are equivalents.
    >    Love = righteousness.   So sure I agree that God is love
    >    and righteous, but I take it that you imply they are different
    >    things?
    
     One time Ace, I believe, properly pointed out that you had "done it
    again" in terms of your methods of defining what Scriptures mean.  I
    submit another example to you in your statement above.  Love and
    righteousness are not the same thing.  But you somehow have decided
    that they are, against all reasonableness.  Maybe you can discard this
    false idea too and make some progress in knowledge of the truth and
    Truth.
    
    jeff

  .86 hidden and returned to author.




 Jim Co Mod.

      Hi Jeff,
    
        Your reply failed to reach me.  I suppose it may be because
        my heart wasn't warmed.
    
        Go to Him who sells.
    
    						Tony

    
    Does anyone have an on-line Strong's or similar resource.  If so, will
    you enter the definitions for the words "love" and "righteousness"? 
    You will be serving Tony and this conference well if you would do so.
    
    jeff
    

      Isaiah 51:7
      Listen to me you who know righteousness
      You people in whose heart is My law.
    
      1 Tim 1:5
      Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart,
      from a good conscience, and from sincere faith,
    
      Romans 7:7-8
      What shall we say then?  Is the law sin?  Certainly not!  On
      the contrary, I would not have known known sin except through
      the law.  For I would not have known covetousness unless the
      law had said, "You shall not covet."
      But sin, taking oppurtunity by the COMMANDMENT produced in me
      all manner of evil desire.  For apart from the law, sin was 
      dead.
    
      Matthew 22:37-40
      Jesus said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all
      your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
      This is the first and great commandment.
      And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as
      yourself.
      On all these two commandments hang all the law and all the
      prophets.
    
      From Isaiah, knowing rightousness is equated to having the law
      in the heart.  From Romans 7, we can see that the commandment
      and the law are equivalents.  From Matthew, loving is equated
      to the spiritual meaning of the commandments.
    
      If the true meaning of the commandment is love and if the commandment
      is the same as the law, the true meaning of the law is love.  As
      the law is equated to righteousness, it follows that righteousness
      and love are the same.
    
      That this is obvious is that it is agape that draws.  We are changed
      by beholding.  We are beholding love.  The perceptual channel of
      beholding is FAITH.  Galatians says we are righteous by faith.
    
      We love because He first loved us.  We are righteous because of His
      love for us.
    
      Equivalents.
    
    							Tony

      OK, I'll fess up.  I don't believe righteousness and love are
      synonymous.
    
      I believe righteousness is love wrought out in one laden with
      sinful flesh.  God is righteous because Jesus came in our flesh
      and was obedient unto death - which is the only way to be obedient
      in our flesh.
    
      Angels are never called righteous.  They are holy.
    
      I believe righteousness is a subset of agape.
    
    						Tony

	I believe Tony has it right... (not Right :-)

      Hi Glen,
    
        Thanks so much, friend, for your support!
    
        I believe that your rallying behind my view is JUST the elixir
        for Jeff Benson!  With your influence, Jeff is SURE to come
        to terms with the truth!
    
        ;-)
    
    						Tony

	Tony.... whatever do you mean??? :-)

>      OK, I'll fess up.  I don't believe righteousness and love are
>      synonymous.

Well hermano, that's progress!  8*)

>   Angels are never called righteous.  They are holy.

You know, I don't have a concordance here and wanted find the reference of 
the angels being holy. Can you help? 

Thanks,
Ace

      Hi Ace,
    
        Gee, I thought they were.  Well, I certainly blew it if they
        aren't!
    
        By the way, progress would include a fair assessment of my
        support, would it not?  (Referring to my scriptural reply.)
    
    						Tony
    
        

    Mt.25:31
    Mk.8:38
    Lk.9:26
    Ac.10:22
    Re.14:10

re.96

No, I didn't think you were wrong about the angels being holy, I just
wanted to read about it!

re-97

thanks.

ace

Definitions from Webster's New World Dictionary, Third College Edition:

     LOVE - 1 a deep and tender feeling of affection for or attachment or
        n     devotion to a person or persons
            2 an expression of one's love or affection

RIGHTEOUS - 1 acting in a just, upright manner, doing what is right; virtuous
      adj   2 morally right; fair and just
            3 morally justifiable

Definitions from Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words:

RIGHTEOUSNESS - DIKAIOSUNE is the character or quality of being right or just;
                formerly spelled "rightwiseness," which clearly expresses the
                meaning.  Denotes an attribute of God, essentially the same as
                His faithfulness, or truthfulness, that which is consistent
                with His own nature and promises.  God's righteousness was
                exhibited in the Death of Christ, which is sufficient to shew
                that God is neither indifferent to sin nor regards sin lightly.
                On the contrary, the Death of Christ demonstrates the quality
                of holiness which must find expression in God's condemnation of
                sin.

                DIKAIOSUNE means right action.

         LOVE - AGAPE expresses the deep and constant love and interest of God
                towards entirely unworthy objects, producing and fostering a
                reverential love towards those who partake of the same, and a
                desire to help others seek the Giver.

                AGAPE can be known only from actions prompted.  God's love is
                seen as the gift of His Son.  This obviously is not the love of
                complacency, or affection, i.e., AGAPE was not drawn out by any
                excellency in the objects.  AGAPE was an exercise of the Divine
                will in deliberate choice, made without assignable cause save
                that which lies in the nature of God Himself.

                AGAPE was perfectly expressed among men in the Lord Jesus
                Christ.  AGAPE is the fruit of the Holy Spirit in the
                Christian, having God for its primary object, and expressing
                itself first of all in implicit obedience to His commandments.
                Self-will, or self-pleasing, is the negation of AGAPE.

                AGAPE, whether exercised toward believers, or toward men
                generally, is not an emotional impulse, does not always run
                with natural inclinations, nor spends itself only upon those
                for whom some affinity is discovered.  AGAPE seeks the welfare
                of all and works no ill to any; AGAPE seeks opportunity to do
                good to "all men, and especially toward them that are of the
                household of the faith." (Gal.6:10, see also 1Cor.13 and
                Col.3:12-14)

                AGAPAO suggests valuing and esteeming, an unselfish love, ready
                to serve.  PHILEO conveys the thought of cherishing the object
                above all else, of manifesting an affection characterized by
                constancy, from the motive of the highest veneration.  To love
                (PHILEO) life, from an undue desire to preserve it, forgetful
                of the real Object of living, meets with the Lord's reproof.
                On the other hand, to love (AGAPAO) life is to consult the true
                interests of living.

              * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
              * PHILEO is never used in a command to men to love God. *
              * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

My comment:  Though not the same, Love and Righteousness cannot be separated.
             The standard of Righteousness is God's character, and God is
             revealed in Jesus Christ.  In other words, DIKAIOSUNE is AGAPE and
             AGAPE is DIKAIOSUNE, or right action is God's Love and God's Love
             is right action, if you will.  God's Love cannot be understood
             apart from His Righteousness, neither can His Righteousness be
             understood without His Love.  God acts because He is righteous,
             and all that He does is right.

	Whomsoever,

	That is the beauty of the gospel is it not?

	God is love and God is righteous. He is both. His love could
never violate His righteousness. His righteousnesses are motivated by His
love. In the gospel we see God's love and righteousness. Though God loved 
us, He could not save us in an unrighteous way. That is, He could not 
forgive us just because He loved us. To do so would violate His righteousness.
So His plan of salvation firstly includes a judicial aspect. That is, the 
penalty that we should bear as sinners and enemies of God was born by God
Himself. And while we were enemies, He reconciled to Himself through the
death of His Son. This is a righteous act motivated by the highest and
purest love. His plan of salvation satisfies His righteous requirements 
through its judicial aspect, that is, the shedding of His blood. Now as sons
we are able to receive all that the Father desired for us. God can now 
freely pour out His love upon us righteously. 

	Because God is righteous and can never violate His righteousness, 
and because He has paid the penalty for us already, then whoever believes 
into Him, *GOD MUST SAVE THAT PERSON*. If God did not save that person He 
would be unrighteous, but since He can never be unrighteous He is bound to 
save that one. For this reason, God's righteousness is the base of salvation
(God's love is the motive). Even if God didn't love you, or like you, He 
has to save you if you believe into Him. God's righteousness becomes the
surety of our salvation. He can never change His righteousness even though
He might stop liking you. 8*) 

If we are careful to distinguish God's love, righteousness, holiness, life,
light, nature, etc. we will see many wonderful facets of our God
and His manifest wisdom. He is truly a remarkable God!

Regards,
Ace