Conference yukon::christian_v7

	Bob, the actual pain may not be the thing to thank Him on, but maybe
whatever it is He is trying to show you through all of it. 


Glen

    Thanks Glen,
    
     But it goes much further than that, so perhaps my example didn't get
    the point across as I intended. I'll use an "extreme" case for another
    example...
    
     I am not thankful for the fact God has not yet disposed of the devil,
    and he is allowed to roam around, doing the nasty things he does. I
    am not thankful for the fact that my limitations do not allow me to
    understand so very very much about life. I am not thankful people are
    dieing of starvation, while others live in luxury, and hoard riches. I
    am not thankful AIDS exists, or any other form of disease. Oh, and I am
    not thankful God doesn't communicate things like "what He may be trying
    to teach me in this", in a simple, easy to grasp method. I could go on,
    and on...
    
     Originally, I intended to pose this topic as a question: What do you
    find difficult, or impossible, to be truely thankful for? How can one
    be truely thankful for the death of a loved one, unless it ended
    suffering, and one was sure they would go to be with the Lord, which
    was the case with my mother, when she died unexpectedly 6 years ago.
    
     Should I be thankful friends and relatives die and DO NOT go to
    heaven? Pardon the expression, but HELL NO!!! I just can't do it!
    
    Bob

	Bob,

	FWIW, I don't think we're being told to "manufacture" a thankful
attitude, for things that are only painful to us.  Instead, we are being
reminded that in every situation (whether happy or grim), God is in
control, He knows what he's doing, and He is working out everything for
our eventual good.  If we remind ourselves of these facts, and begin to
behave as though we really believe them, then He will instill in us a
thankful heart.

							Bob Sampson

>	Bob, the actual pain may not be the thing to thank Him on, but maybe
>whatever it is He is trying to show you through all of it. 


  Then we should be thankful for the pain, if that is what He is using to
  teach/reach us.  



 Jim

Bob, what a real and excellent question!  And I'm really encouraged when
believers confess (say the truth about) these things because then I know I'm
not the only one.

What I've found helpful is to see giving thanks as an act (of obedience) that
leads to an attitude (of gratitude).  I don't think God asks us to give thanks
because we're thankful, rather to give thanks in order to become thankful.

"By Him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that
is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to His name." (Heb.13:15, KJV)

Thanksgiving is the expression of joy Godward, and joy is the fruit of the
Spirit (Gal.5:22).

I submit that we've put the cart before the horse in thinking we have to feel
thankful in order to honestly give thanks.  If God makes us thankful when we
give thanks, then how might our Enemy seek to diminish the work of God in our
lives?  Might Satan have us see ourselves as hypocrites in giving thanks without
"feeling" thankful?

Only God can make us thankful.  By giving thanks in all things we cooperate with
His will.

How can we know we love God?  By doing or feeling?  Jesus said, "He that hath
my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth
me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself
to him." (Jn.14:21, KJV)

I think there's an underlying principle here.  Do you think Jesus was thankful
for His suffering on the cross?  "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of
our faith; who for the JOY THAT WAS SET BEFORE HIM endured the cross, despising
the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." (Heb.12:2,
KJV)

By giving thanks I view myself as expressing Christ's joy (being) fulfilled in
me (John 17:13).  A working definition of faith that I've found helpful is
acting as if what God says is true.  By faith I give thanks in all things that
I might be made thankful.  If I always felt thankful, then would giving thanks
really be a faith act?

I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.  I certainly understand the
struggle because I'm in it with you.  "For we know that the whole creation
groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but
ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves
groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our
body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a
man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then
do we with patience wait for it." (Ro.8:22-25, KJV)

Again, we give thanks to God because we're NOT thankful (but want to be)! :-)

/Wayne

re .0

Bob,

;    This conflict of obedience vs honesty is a hard one for me. In 1 Thess.
;    5:18, we are commanded to "in everything give thanks, for this is the
;    will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you".

A cross reference scripture to "in everything give thanks," is Collossians
3:17 the NWT version reads "And whatever it is you do in word or in work,
do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, thanking God the Father through
him". Paul was alluding to giving thanks in connection to everything he
mentions in the preceding verses to 1 Thessalonians 5:18, that is the many
provisions that God supplies, spiritual armour, those taking the lead, prayer,
etc that help one to stand firm in a spiritually darkened world.

It would seem unappropriate to give thanks to God for the things He hates or
disapproves of (compare Psalms 97:10).

BTW pain is at times a wonderful protective mechanism that God has given
mankind. Because of imperfection there are some who feel no pain, this 
can be very dangerous if one gets to close to a fire. But I know the pain 
and suffering that you are talking about was never meant to be in God's original 
purpose. His wonderful purpose/guarantee is that "pain and suffering" will be 
no more at a future date (Revelation 21:3-5). In the meantime his servants can 
give thanks for the provisions that He gives to help them cope with the
suffering that they may experience today.

Phil.

      Hi Bob,
    
        I think its just a characteristic of the reality that when we
        accept Christ in our hearts, the experience is *progressive*.
        We don't abandon all of our sins as in a moment.
    
        Given the above, it follows that there are many things we are
        up to that are not in accordance with His will - things not yet
        even revealed to us perhaps.
    
        I really see no quandary.  Continue to be honest.  Just realize
        that we are not necessarily ready to give up everything for the
        Lord all at one time.
    
        But, are you willing to be made willing?  Can you honestly say
        that?  "Lord, I'm willing to be made willing!"
    
    						Tony

re .0

Bob,

In light of other responses in this note string, I should
clarify my response. A Christian would not give thanks
for the persecution they might suffer, but rather have joy 
and give thanks that God has found them worthy to use them
as fellow workers. 

God doesn't intend Christians to experience persecution,
rather they experience persecution because they *are*
Christians (compare John 15:20).

The early Christians were zealous in preaching the good
news and many listened but as you know at times they were
persecuted. As Acts 5:40-42 NWT reads "At this they gave
heed to him, and they summoned the apostles, flogged them,
and ordered them to stop speaking upon the basis of Jesus'
name, and let them go. These, therefore, went their way
from before the Sandhedrin, rejoicing because they had
been counted worhty of being dishonored in behalf of his 
name. And every day in the temple and from house to house
they continued without letup  teaching and declaring the 
good news about the Christ, Jesus." Notice what their 
reason for joy was? , God no doubt helped them cope with
any pain they may have undergone.

Phil.

| <<< Note 884.4 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Every knee shall bow" >>>


| Then we should be thankful for the pain, if that is what He is using to
| teach/reach us.

	I guess I look at it that the pain itself might be the method He uses,
but if we look at the message He is giving us, that is what we should be
thankful for. If something good happens, we should be looking for the message
as well, not the act. Because to me, anyway, the message He conveys is much
more important than any good or bad action that we go through.


Glen

It's going to take me a bit to get over being blown away that this question
is raised here right now.  I've been walking through this for the past couple
of weeks, and it has been changing my life.  I just spent a bunch of time
yesterday typing in various verses that encourage us to be thankful not just
IN all things (since that is relatively easy), to be thankful FOR all things
(See Eph 5:20 "always give thanks for all things in the name of our Lord
Jesus Christ to God, even the Father.")  The verses are just in haphazard
order, but I'll work on them later today and post them.

I'll have a lot to say eventually, but it will take time.  But my first
thought is that there is no conflict at all between honesty and obedience. 
Note that none of these verses say *FEEL* thankful.  They just say *GIVE
THANKS*.  I'm learning more and more that the LORD seeks to release us from
being a prisoner to our feelings.  You don't have to FEEL thankful to GIVE
thanks.  You don't have to ignore your feelings, you can put them right out
before the LORD, yet still WILL to be obedient, and do so.  What the LORD
does in response is then His job, not yours.  Note the progression in the
following verses:

"Rejoice in the Lord always, again I will say, rejoice!  Let your forbearing
spirit be known to all men.  The Lord is near.  Be anxious for nothing, but
in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests
be known to God.  And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension,
shall guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus."

							Phil 4:4-7

It starts out with "Rejoice ALWAYS," repeated for emphasis.  Then be upset or
anxious about nothing, but let God know what you're thinking, still giving
thanks.  And then it finishes with God's response - HE will grant us His
peace, surpassing all comprehension, to guard us.  It's not up to us to
generate a *feeling* of peace.  It's not up to us to generate a *feeling* of
thanksgiving.  It is up to us to rejoice always, give thanks, and put
everything in God's hands.  The *feelings* of peace and thankfulness are His
part.

And I can speak from experience, that He follows through on this promise.

More later...

Paul

>God doesn't intend Christians to experience persecution,
>rather they experience persecution because they *are*
>Christians (compare John 15:20).
    
    Phil, I'm not 100% convinced of this.  In reading Philippians 3:7-11, I
    sense the Holy Spirit saying that you can't *KNOW* Christ without some
    suffering.  Especially verse 10.  Suffering is necessary to identify
    with Him, grow closer to Him, and understand His love.
    
3:7  But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

3:8  Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the
 knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all
 things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

3:9  And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the
 law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is
 of God by faith:

3:10  That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the
 fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

3:11  If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

How true, Mike.  There are things I just don't think it is possible for us to
learn without it.  And then there's always 2Tim 3:12:

"In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be
persecuted."

Paul

The scriptures are full of exhortations to praise the Lord.  Most of them
call us to praise the Lord for how wonderful He is, but there are many which
call us to praise the Lord ALWAYS, even when things look bleak or when things
seem to go all wrong.

I've been compiling some of these verses, just as a help for me in times when
it seems harder to praise Him.  I've categorized them a bi.  I hope these
verses minister to you as much as they have to me.  I know there are lots
more verses, I'll add to this as I run across them.

The quotes are from the NAS version of the Bible.

Paul

****************************************************************************
The primary reason He calls us to praise - because He *inhabits* our praise!
****************************************************************************

Yet thou art Holy, O Thou who are enthroned upon the praises of Israel

					Psalm 22:3

***********************************************************************
Verses which call us to simply praise God at all times, for all things
***********************************************************************

Always give thanks for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to
God, even the Father.
							Eph 5:20

Rejoice always.  Pray without ceasing.  In everything give thanks, for this
is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.
							1 Thess 5:16-18

Offer to God a sacrifice of thanksgiving, 
 and pay your vows to the Most High;
And call upon me in the day of trouble; 
 I shall rescue you, and you will honor Me.

He who offers a sacrifice of thanksgiving honors Me;
 And to him who orders his way aright I shall show the salvation of God.

							Psalm 50:14-15,23

Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I shall return there. The LORD
gave and the LORD has taken away.  Blessed be the name of the LORD.

							Job 1:21

You speak as one of the foolish women speak.  Shall we indeed accept good
from God and not accept adversity?
							Job 2:10

Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him.
							Job 13:15

Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say Rejoice!  Let your forbearing
spirit be known to all men.  The Lord is near.  Be anxious for nothing, but
in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests
be made known to God.  And the peace of God, which surpasses all
comprehension, shall guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

							Phil 4:4-6

I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am.  I know how to
get along with humble means, and I also know how to live in prosperity; in
any and every circumstance I have learned the secret of being content,
whether filled or going hungry, both of having abundance and suffering need.
I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.
							Phil 4:11-13

Do all things without grumbling or disputing; that you may prove yourselves
to be blameless and innocent, childrent of God above reproach in the midst of
a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the
world.
							Phil 2:14-15

The joy of the LORD is your strength.
							Neh 8:10

We are workers with you for your joy, for in your faith you are standing firm

							2 Cor 1:24

These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may be in you, and that your
joy may be made full.

							John 15:11

Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord.  To write the same thing again is
no trouble to me, and it is a safeguard to you.
							Phil 3:1

*************************************************************************
Verses which tell us that God is using difficult circumstance to refine us,
discipline us, teach us, and mold us into His image.
*************************************************************************

Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing
that the testing of your faith produces endurance.  And let endurance have
its perfect result, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

							James 1:2-4

Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our
Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by
faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the Glory of
God.  And not only this, bue we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that
tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character;
and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of
God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was
given to us.
						Rom 5:1-3

In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if
necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, that the proof of your
faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested
by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the
revelation of Jesus Christ; and though you have not seen Him, you love Him,
and though you do not see Him now, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible
and full of glory.
						1 Pet 1:6-8

We do not want you to be unaware, brethren, of our affliction which came to
us in Asia, that we were burdened excessively, beyond our strength, so that
we despaired even of life.  Indeed, we had the sentence of death within
ourselves in order that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God who
raises the dead; who delivered us from so great a peril death, and will
deliver us, He on whom we have set our hope.  And He will yet deliver us.

						2 Cor 1:8-10

For this finds favor, if for the sake of conscience toward God a man bears up
under sorrows when suffering unjustly.  For what credit is there if, when you
sin and ar harsly treated, you endure it with patience?  But if when you do
what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor
with God.  For you have been called for thsi purpose, since Christ also
suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps ...
while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered
no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously.

						1 Pet 2:19-21,23

To sum up, let all be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and
humble in spirit; not returning evil for evil, or insult for insult, but
giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you
might inherit a blessing.  ...  But even if you should suffer for the sake of
righteousness, you are blessed.  And do not fear their intimidation, and do
not be troubled, but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts.

						1 Pet 3:8-9,14-15a

Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon
youf or your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you; but
to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing; so
that also at the revelation of His glory, you may rejoice with exultation. 
If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the
Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. ... Therefore, let those also who
suffer according to the will of God entrust their souls to a faithful creator
in doing what is right.
							1 Pet 4:12-14,19

Humble yourselves, therevore, under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt
you at the proper time, casting all your anxiety upon Him, because He cares
for you.  Be of sober spirit, be on the alert.  Your adversary the devil
prowls about like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.  But resist him,
firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being
accomplished by your brethren who are in the world.  And after you have
suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His
eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and
establish you.
							1 Pet 5:6-10

I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.  Every branch in Me
that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit,
He prunes it, that it may bear more fruit.
							John 15:1-2

He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in
weakness."  Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses,
that the power of Christ may dwell in me.  Therefore I am well content with
weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with
difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.

						2 Cor 12:9-10

Shout joyfully to God, all the earth!
Sing the Glory of His name!
Make His praise Glorious!

Bless our God, O peoples, and sound His praise abroad!
Who keeps us in life, and does not allow our feet to slip.
For You have tried us, O God, You have refined us as silver is refined.
You brought us into the net; You lay an oppressive burden upon our loins.
You made men ride over our heads; we went through fire and through water;
Yet You brought us out into a place of abundance.

Come and hear, all who fear God,
And I will tell of what He has done for my soul.
I cried to him with my mouth, and He was extolled with my tongue.

						Psalm 66:1,8-12,16-17

Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us
also lay aside every encumbrance, and the sin which so easily entangles us,
and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes
on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him
endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of
the throne of God.  For consider Him who has endured such hostility by
sinners against Himself, so that you may not grow weary and lose heart.  You
have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against
sin; and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as
sons, 'My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor faint
when you are reproved by Him; for those whom the Lord loves He disciplines,
and He scourges every son whom He receives.'  It is for discipline that you
endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his
father does not discipline?  But if you are without discipline, of which all
have bceomc partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons...
All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to
those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of
righteousness.
							Heb 12:1-8,11

Let us not try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by serpents.
Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer.  Now
these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our
instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

							1 Cor 10:9-11

But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for
the sake of Christ.  More than that, I coult all things to be loss in view of
the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for who I have suffered
the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish in order that I may gain
Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived
from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness
which comes from God on the basis of faith, that I may know Him, and the
power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being
conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from
the dead.
							Phil 3:7-11

****************************************************************************
Verses which tell us that God may use difficult circumstances for our good in
other ways, not necessarily in personal refinement - God is doing what is
best for us, whether we recognize it or not.
****************************************************************************

[In the context of telling Jeremiah that Jerusalem will be destroyed and the
people will be taken into captivity and exile for 70 years]:

For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for welfare and
not for calamity, to give you a future and a hope.

						Jer 29:11
 
The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if
indeed we suffer with Him in order that we may also be glorified with Him. 
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be
compared with the glory that is to be revealed in us.
							Rom 8:16-18

And in the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know
how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with
groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the
mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the
will of God.  And we know that God causes all things to work together for
good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

							Rom 8:26-28

We have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His
purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that
we who were the first to hope in Christ should be to the praise of His Glory.

							Eph 1:11-12

Do not be grieved or angry with yourselves, because you sold me here; for God
sent me before you to preserve life... It was not you who sent me here, but
God.  ...  You meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to
bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.

							Gen 45:5,8;50:20

***************************************************************************
Verses calling us to put our trust in the Lord in all things, that God will
never leave us or forsake us, in the worst of times.
***************************************************************************


Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?  Shall tribulation, or
distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?  Just
as it is written, 'For thy sake we are being put to death all day long; we
were considered as sheep to be slaughtered.'  But in all these things we
overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.  For I am convinced that
neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present,
nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created
thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ
Jesus our Lord.
						Romans 8:35-39

Do not fret because of evildoers, be not envious toward wrongdoers.
For they will wither quickly like the grass, and fade like the green herb.
Trust in the Lord, and do good; dwell in the land and cultivate faithfulness.
Delight yourself in the Lord, and He will give you the desires of your heart.
Commit your way to the Lord, trust also in Him, and He will do it.
And He will bring forth your righteousness as the light,
And your judgement as noonday.
Rest in the Lord and wait patiently for Him;
Do not fret because of him who prospers in his way,
Because of hte man who carries out wicked schemes.
Cease from anger, and forsake wrath; do not fret, it leads only to evildoing.

The steps of a man are established by the Lord; and He delights in his way
When he falls, he shall not be hurled headlong;
Because the Lord is the one who holds his hand.

					Psalm 37:1-8, 23-24

Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And yet not one of them will fall to
the ground apart from your Father.  But the very hairs of your head are
numbered.  Therefore do not fear; you are of more value than many sparrows.

							Mat 10:29-31

I am the LORD, and there is no other.  The One forming light and creating
darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does
all these.  Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker - An earthenware
vessel among the vessels of earth!  Will the clay say to the potter, 'What
are you doing?' Or the thing you are making say 'He has no hands?'

							Is 45:6,7,9

When I am afraid, I will put my trust in You.
In God, whose word I praise, In God I have put my trust;
I shall not be afraid.  What can mere man do to me?

							Psalm 56:3-4

**************************************************************************
Examples of praising God in very difficult or trying circumstances, with the
results, if results are mentioned.
**************************************************************************

Now it came about after this that the sons of Moab and the sons of Ammon,
together with some of the Meunites, came to make war against Jehoshaphat.

Then Jehoshaphat stood in the assembly ... and he said "O LORD, the God of
our fathers, are Thou not God in the heavens?  And art Thou not ruler over
all the kingdoms of the nations?  Power and might are in Thy hand so that no
one can stand against Thee... For we are powerless before this great
multitude who are coming against us; nor do we know what to do, but our eyes
are on Thee."

[the Lord] said "Do not fear or be dismayed because of this great multitude,
for the battle is not yours but God's.  Tomorrow go down against them.  ...
You need not fight this battle, station yourselves, stand and see the
salvation of the LORD on your behalf, O Judah and Jerusalem.  Do not fear or
be dismayed, tomorrow go out to face them, for the LORD is with you."

And the Levites ... stood up to praise the LORD God of Israel, with a very
loud voice. And ... when they went out Jehoshaphat stood and said "Listen to
me, O Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, put your trust in the LORD your
God, and you will be established.  Put your trust in His prophets and
succeed."  And when he had consulted with the people, he appointed those who
sang to the LORD and those who praised Him in holy attire, as they went out
before the army and said, "Give thanks to the LORD, for His lovingkindness is
everlasting."

And when they began singing and praising, the LORD set ambushes against the
sons of Ammon, Moab, and Mount Seir, who had come against Judah, so they were
routed.

So the kingdom of Jehoshaphat was at peace, for his God gave him rest on all
sides.
					2 Chron 20:1,5,6,12,15-17,19-22,30

I heard and my inward parts trembled, at the sound my lips quivered.
Decay enters my bones, and in my place I tremble, because I must wait quietly
for the day of distress...  Though the fig tree should not blossom, and there
be no fruit on the vines, though the yield of the olive should fail, and the
fields produce no food, though the flock should be cut off from the fold, and
there be no cattle in the stalls, Yet I will exult in the LORD, I will
rejoice in the God of my salvation.  The Lord God is my strength, and He has
made my feet like deer's feet, and makes me walk on my high places.

							Hab 3:16-19

I am the man who has seen affliction because of the Rod of His wrath.
He has driven me and made me walk in darkness and not in light.
Surely against me He has turned His hand repeatedly all the day.
He has caused my flesh and my skin to waste away, He has broken my bones.
He has besieged and encompassed me with bitterness and hardship.
In dark places He has made me dwell, like those have have long been dead.
He has walled me in so that I cannot go out; He has made my chain heavy.
Even when I cry out and call for help, He shuts out my prayer.
He has blocked my ways with hewn stonel He has made my paths crooked.
He is to me like a bear lying in wait, like a lion in secret places.
He has turned aside my ways and torn me to pieces, He has made me desolate.
He bent His bow and set me as a target for the arrow.
He made the arrows of His wuiver to enter into my inward parts.
I have become a laughingstock to all my people,their mocking song all the day
He has filled me with bitterness, He has made me drunk with wormwood.
And He has broken my teeth with gravel; He has made me to cower in the dust.
And my sould has been rejected from peace; I have forgotten happiness.
So I say 'My strength has perished, and so has my hope from the Lord.'
Remember my affliction and my wandering, the wormwood and bitterness.
Surely my sould remembers and is bowed down within me.

This I recall to mind, therefore I have hope:
The Lord's lovingkindnesses indeed never cease,for His compassions never fail
They are new every morning, Great is Thy faithfulness.
'The LORD is my portion' says my soul, 'therefore I have hope in Him.'
The LORD is good to those who wait for Him, to the person who seeks Him.
It is good that he waits silently for the salvation of the LORD.
...
For the Lord will not reject forever, For if He causes grief,
Then He will have compassion, according to His lovingkindness.
For He does not afflict willingly, or grieve the sons of men.
...
Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass,
 unless the Lord has commanded it?
Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both good and ill go forth?
Why should any living mortal, or any man offer complaint in view of his sins?
Let us examine and probe our ways, and let us return to the LORD.
...
I called on Thy name, O LORD, out of the lowest pit.
Thou has heard my voice, ... thou didst draw near when I called on Thee;
Thou didst say "Do not fear!"
O Lord, Thou didst plead my soul's cause; Thou has redeemed my life.

					Lam 3:1-26,31-33,37-40,55-58

And the crowd rose up together against them, and the chief magistrates tore
their robes off them, and proceeded to order them to be beaten with rods. 
And when they had inflicted many blows upon them, they threw them into
prison, commanding the jailer to guard them securely.  And he, having
received such a command, threw them into the inner prison, and fastened their
feet in the stocks.  But about midnight Paul and Silas were praying and
singing hymns of praise to God, and the prisoners were listening to them; and
suddenly there came a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison
house were shaken; and immdiately all the doors were opened, and everyone's
chains were unfastened.
...
And [the jailer] was baptized, he and all his household...and rejoiced
greatly, having believed in God with his whole household.

							Acts 16:22-26,33-34

When [The council] had threatened them further, they let them go...when they
had been released, they went to their companions, and reported all that the
chief priests and the elders had said to them.  And when they heard this,
they lifted their voices to God with one accord and [praised the Lord]. 'And
now Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that Thy bond-servants may
speak Thy word with all confidence, while Thou dost extend Thy hand to heal,
and signs and wonders take place through the name of Thy holy servant Jesus.'
And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was
shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak the
word of God with boldness.
							Acts 4:21-31

After calling the apostles in, they flogged them and ordered them to speak no
more in the name of Jesus, and then released them.  So they went on their way
from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered
worthy to suffer shame for His name.
							Acts 5:40-41

re .11

Yes Mike, all Christians have to conquer the world just like
Jesus and will likely suffer for it. Not all will be persecuted
unto death, but if they are Christians they will receive to
some degree the sufferings Jesus experienced. It could
be something discouraging as mentioned by Peter in 1 Peter 4:4,
a Christian shouldn't allow such discouragement to rob them
of their joy. 

If you read the preceding 2 verses prior to John 15:20, you
will see that Christians will share in Christ's suffering for
like him they are no part of world. But being no part of the
world, they still have to *live* in it as Jesus did, hence in
the later part of John 16:33 NWTb Christians are told
"In the world YOU are having tribulation, but take courage!
I have conquered the world."

The source of the sufferings is Satan and his world (1 John 5:19), 
God allows his subjects to undergo test thus they can prove what 
kind of persons they are, ie no part of the world.

You are correct that someone can only fully come to know Jesus
if one suffers, that is experience what it is like to follow
his footsteps closely in a world that is darkened spiritually.
As 1 Peter 2:21 NWT reads "In fact, to this [course] you were
called, because even Christ suffered for YOU, leaving YOU a
model for YOU to follow his footsteps closely."

Phil

BTW God does discipline those he loves (Hebrews 12:6) 

re .11

Mike,

To clarify my last reply, I'm only talking about experiencing 
persecution. Christians like everyone else suffer because Adam 
sold man into sin. Again, it is not God causing the suffering
but the reality or after effects of Adam's sinful course. Adam
has alot to answer for!.


Phil.

    Phil, Paul,
    
    Sure puts a damper on the "Health & Wealth" movement, doesn't it?!
    
    Remember when God said, "Consider my servant, Job!"
    
    Lately, I think he's been saying "Consider my servant, Paul Weiss!"  
    
    God Bless you, Paul.  He's making a jewel out of you.
    
    Mike

    Re: .15
    
    Agreed, Phil.  When you are in the midst of it, sometimes it's hard to
    distinguish between the wrath of the world and the wrath of God.  We
    can be assured though, that as His children, we are not destined to His
    wrath.
    
    Mike

Thanks Mike, though I think the comparison is a bit extreme. :-)

But God certainly has been working on me.  It hasn't all been pleasant, in
fact a lot of it hasn't been pleasant at all.  But I'm slowly learning to
praise Him for *ALL* of it, and trust Him *IN* all of it.  And learning that
is changing me more deeply than nearly anything else I've learned.

Praise God, for everything He has brought into my life, even those things
which I have fought against as the work of evil!  Satan may have asked for
permission to sift me, but God had to grant that permission, so He must have
a good reason, and I will trust His judgement.

Praise Him!

Paul

    Bob, I would like to thank you for the very refreshing dose of reality
    evident in your notes.
    
    To those who have responded, I would like to offer the encouragement to
    embrace that reality, as painful as it might be. Tony, you have by far
    come the closest to doing that.
    
    When we deny any part of ourselves, including our feelings, we are
    attempting to do something in our own strength. This includes giving
    thanks when it is not within us to do it. Such actions are tantamount
    to lies and bring no pleasure to the Lord. This is not what He meant
    when He said that we were to deny ourselves.
    
    Rather, what Jesus meant was that we were to deny our desire to do
    *anything* in our own strength! Just as we cannot change our feelings,
    we cannot do what is not within us to do. He is blessed when we
    acknowledge the truth that apart from Him, we can do nothing!
    
    His yoke is easy, and His burden light. He does not want us to
    undertake to be thankful when all that is within us is screaming from
    the torture that is within our own hearts. What He wants is for us to
    be absolutely honest with Him about exactly how we feel, to acknowledge
    that we are incapable of obeying His Word, and to come to the point
    were we can say, "O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from
    this body of death?" When we can come to this point, then we can begin
    to know that we can not depend on ourselves but can only depend upon
    Jesus. But that leap in depending upon Him comes by revelation to the
    heart, not by the decision of man.
    
    To Bob, I would offer the encouragement to continue to be honest, as
    Tony suggested, and I will pray for your deliverance. I will also pray
    that you would come to know the abundant life that Jesus will give you,
    even as He has begun to give me.
    
    With love in Christ,
    
    -- Daryl

You're so right, Daryl.  There's no shortcut.

It's taken the Lord three years of an ever-worsening situation for the Lord
to bring me to the place where, in His strength and guidance, I can praise
Him for everything.  I've spent most of that time continually asking the Lord
to do His work in me, since I can't do even the simplest thing on my own.

If someone had just told me three years ago what I just told you, Bob - to
just will thanks even though I was hating every moment - I'd have thought he
was crazy.  It's not through my own strength at all that I've come to this
place, but only through the grace of God.

Paul

      re: .19
    
      Hi Daryl,
    
        Your words mentioned to me nearly brought tears to my eyes!!
        Thanks so much brother. There was healing in your words!
    
      	Brutal times...
    
    						Tony

    Obedience and honesty go together.  When I am asked to do something
    that is just too hard for me, like praising a bad situation, I simply
    admit defeat.  I read a book that said to simply agree with the Enemy.
    When he accuses you of anything, like all the voices whispering 
    your faults, simply agree and ask God for forgiveness and healing.
    Ask for more faith, ask for more wisdom, ask for teaching and guidance.
    God loves honesty and it opens a way for a much more fullfilling
    relationship with Him.  Being able to be totally honest both with Him
    and with yourself opens the gates for real healing and growth. 
    
    God does not expect us to be perfect (at least not yet) and most
    definitely does not want us to try it on our own strength.  There is
    freedom in knowing that its ok to make mistakes and be weak.
    
    1 John 4:18
    There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear
    has to do with punishment.  The one who fears is not made perfect in
    love.
    
    To me this means that since God so loved the world He sent his only Son
    as our Savior.  He already knows every bad thing that we ever did and
    ever will do, He already forgave us.  So there is no fear left.  One
    who fears does not understand the truth behind God's love fully.
    
    Once you understand this, "Then you will know the truth, and the truth 
    will set you free." (John 8:32)  Free from all the lies of the world. 
    Free to be who you were meant to be.  Free to be God's chosen child.
    Free to stop trying to please God on your own.  Free to just be His.
    
    Jill 

    See topic 881.  In confessing (saying the truth, or being honest, if
    you will) we offer praise.
    
    God isn't surprised by our honest feelings.  He wants us to share them
    with Him.  He wants us as we are, not as we think we should be.  What
    we should be is His work.
    
    "Casting down reasonings and every high thing that exalteth itself
    against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity EVERY THOUGHT
    to the obedience of Christ" (2Co.10:5)
    
    If nothing else, share what you feel are "bad feelings" with God and be
    thankful you don't have to hide them! :-)
    
    Our Enemy would have us believe that certain things must be hidden from
    God until they're made right.  Is not the essence of sin thinking that
    we can determine what part of ourselves is acceptable to God?
    
    Bob, thanks again for asking a REAL question!  I don't know if anything
    I've said has been, or will be, helpful, but I've sure enjoyed seeking
    God's face as a result of your honesty.
    
    /Wayne

     Thanks to all who replied! There are many things mentioned to think
    about, and it is also very refreshing to know others have/are now
    experiencing this struggle with being honest with themselves, in the
    sight of God, which is not easily done, sometimes due to feeling guilty
    for acknowledging the truth, even though it's not what we think God
    wants to hear.
    
     And now, here's another "tough" reality to think about...
    
     We are instructed to be "in the world, but not of it". I have often
    related this as to being a fish in a bowl, and being told not to swim,
    or to breathe through the gills. 
    
     In order for me to do this (in my own strength?) I would have to hide 
    in a cave, and not expose myself to the environment outside, and even
    then, I would be thinking about what I was missing. I know the
    "pleasures of this world" are fleeting, and are meaningless in the
    eternal view, but, to coin a phrase I often use, "there is no pleasure
    in No Pleasure."
    
     Thanks again, 
    
    Bob 

    What is pleasure?

    Hebrews 5:
    
      He can have compassion on those who are ignorant and going astray 
      since He Himself is also beset with WEAKNESS.
      And no man takes this honor to himself, but he who is called by
      God, just as Aaron was.
      So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but
      it was He who said to Him, "You are My Son; today I have begotten
      You" as He also said in another place, "You are a Priest forever
      according to the order of Melchizedek."
      who, IN THE DAYS OF HIS FLESH, when He had offered up prayers and
      supplications with VEHEMENT CRIES AND TEARS to Him who was able to
      save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear.
      for though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience through the
      things which He suffered.
      And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation
      to all who obey Him.
    
      Sometimes, when the struggle seems intense, there is tremendous
      consolation in knowing He was THERE.  With the same flesh, the
      same weakness, the same, yea even much more vehement cries and
      tears.  This is how He authored our salvation for He paved a way
      for us to follow.
    
      I said with even more vehement cries and tears for
    
      "You have not yet resisted unto bloodshed, striving against sin."
    
      "Let us therefore go forth to Him, outside the gate, bearing His
       reproach."
    
      What a calling is ours!!!!
    
    						Tony

    re .22
    
    I'm not totally happy with how that note came out.  It was meant to be 
    encouraging and the ending did not quite portray this. I was in a hurry
    when I wrote it.  I want to add this piece, which was missing.
    
    
    When you get to a point where you feel fear, and we all do, don't
    panic, simply admit it.  Ask for more faith, or wisdom, or what ever.
    And if you don't know whats wrong simply ask for help.  But don't deny
    that you feel fear.  Don't try to hide it from either yourself or from
    God.  And don't think that because you don't have enough faith for this
    problem that that invalidates any faith you ever had.  Its not true. 
    As we grow we need more of everything.  Its a progressive thing.  Don't
    panic and believe the lies that say if you feel fear you have no faith,
    that you lost all you had.  You simply need more today.
    
    Jill
    

      Hi Jill,
    
        I *loved* your reply (as well as your addendum).
    
        The only thing I might have wanted clarification of is that part
        about "agree(ing) with the enemy."
    
        The enemy speaks to us of our weaknesses with one ultimate
        goal in mind (which is also spoken to the heart).  That is
        to believe God cannot accept you as you are, to thus shipwreck
        your own faith, to respond to the ordeal with despair.
    
        And I know you didn't intend to imply agreement with the
        enemy in these areas - only in the areas of our weakness and
        our ignorance and our present status of sometimes being able
        to be led astray.
    
        But, to speak of "agreement with the enemy" - well, such a
        concept is so powerful as to be nearly scary.  Scary enough
        to demand intense elaboration and clarification!
    
        But, I really LOVED your reply.  It was a blessing to my soul.
    
    						Thanks!,
    
    						Tony

    RE: .28
    
    Hi, Tony.
    
    Jill can certainly correct me if I'm wrong, but I took her to mean
    agreeing with our Enemy such that he is disarmed.  In other words, when
    Satan accuses us, we can say, "yeah, you're right, but God already
    knows that and loves me anyway.  So be gone!"
    
    /Wayne

    Exactly, thanks Wayne.  

    re: .25
    
    Hi Nancy,
    
     Pleasure, by definition, is enjoyment or satisfaction derived from
    something that is to ones liking; gratification, delight. Pleasure is
    also relative to the individual. One persons pleasure, might be another
    ones pain. I have the problem of scripture where we are encouraged (or
    even commanded) to live lives pleasing to God, as when it is not
    pleasing for me to do such, I'll usually choose to please me. You, and
    others may get more pleasure from denying yourself, and being pleasing
    to God. At this point in my life, I don't. I never have felt "good"
    about denying myself pleasure, in order to be obedient, or pleasing to
    God.
    
     This brings up the question within myself, do I love God enough to
    please Him instead of myself? I guess not? There are times when I don't
    even LIKE God. The demands/command He gives are all too often beyond my
    strength, or even desire to try to obey. It leads me to great
    frustration, which must mean I'm trying to do things in my own
    strength, but to ask God for strength to deny something I enjoy seems
    self defeating. Oh, and some may view defeat of "self" as victory, and
    I understand that. But to be depressed, and unhappy, to put a smile on
    God's face isn't where I am at right now. Then there is all this talk
    about joy unspeakable, as reward for complying. I do not recall ever
    feeling this sensation. 
    
     I'll end this with a favorite saying of mine...
    
     If I wanted to be tested, I'd go back to school, if I wanted trials,
    I'd have been a lawyer, and if I had wanted patience, I'd have been a
    doctor. %~}
    
     Thanks again to all who have replied, and have prayed for me, as I
    know I need it, but am somewhat apprehensive as to how they may be
    answered...
    
    Bob

I'm really busy and I don't have the time to respond right now, Bob.  But I
do have a response that I really want to put in to what you just wrote in
.31.  If I don't by Monday, then bug me about it, OK?  :-)

Paul

    Thank you Bob for answering this for me.  BTW, I enjoyed seeing you
    last week and was sorry we couldn't all connect up [with Daryl].  
    
    You and I have had similar conversations and I know how incredibly
    painful much of your life has been.  I've always said this to you and I
    will say it again... You ARE loved and offered a heritage of joy.  Hope
    is never gone.
    
    And secondly, I wish to read your note more carefully and respond to it
    more directly later.  Thanks Again!
    
    BTW, did I hug you when you were here?  If I didn't I apologize cause I
    surely needed one!
    
    Nancy

    
    Bob,
    
    I don't really have any answers for you but I just wanted to
    say thank you for being so open and for sharing your experiences
    with everyone here.  I don't know about anyone else, but I have
    been there and I'm sure I will be there again.  
    
    Will be praying for you.
    
    Pam

    I do have another question for you, Bob... :-)
    
    
    What gives pleasure to God?

re-1

Oh, oh can I try?   8*)

      Hi Wayne, Jill,
    
        Thanks for clarifying!
    
    						Tony

    Re: .35
    
     Good question Nancy! From what Isaiah 53:10 says, "It pleased the Lord
    to bruise him, he hath put him to grief, when thou shalt make an
    offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and
    the pleasure of the Lord shall proper in his hand." So here, it seems
    God was pleased with the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, as it
    brought/will bring many into the kingdom. Throughout the Bible, it
    pleased God to have a people unto himself. Solomons speach pleased the
    Lord. The Lord takes pleasure in them that fear Him, in those who hope
    in his mercy. (Psalms 147:11). Faith pleases God. God does what He does
    for "his good pleasure". It pleases Him to give to us the kingdom. It
    pleases Him to see His children grow. I'm sure there are occasionally
    things even I do, that please God. But realistically, I'm sure there is
    more that I do that is not, than is. That goes back to a previous note
    where I brought up the topic...in whom He is well pleased. (or in my
    case, in whom He is sometimes pleased).
    
     There is a long list of things that are not pleasing to God, but I
    don't have time to get into that at this point. I think my most obvious
    arguement with God is the methodology He uses to bring about changes in
    me (and I'm sure others as well.) Knowing He can (if He so pleases)
    change me with a single word, and He still uses the method of life's
    many difficulties to mold and shape me. I would certainly prefer the
    one word "presto chango" technique. But He does what He wills,
    regardless of how much I may or may not dislike it. 
    
     Since God doesn't change, looks like I will have to. But it won't be
    easy, not because I stubbornly put up a fight, but because of my
    inherited nature. Why I (and you and everyone else) have to suffer for
    the error of Adam in the past, is beyond me. years ago, in school, I
    always thought it very unfair, that the whole class had to suffer for
    the actions of one. This is on a much greater scale, of course, but I
    still think it unfair.
    
     There is much I choose not to enter here that goes through my mind,
    for fear of causing someone new to fall. Or planting seeds that should
    not be given thought. I sincerely apologize if my honesty offends
    anyone, in any way.
    
     Unfortunately, I have way too much to do to continue, as there are
    projects I need to finish, before starting a weeks vacation. I'll get
    back in when I return, and catch up as I can. God bless you all! %~}
                       
    Bob

    Hi Bob,
    
    You asked how we may be "in the world but not of it"; that is another
    excellent question!
    
    The simple truth is that we can't. There is just nothing that we can
    do, nothing on which we can set our minds or hearts, nothing we can
    achieve or attain, nothing at all, by which we can accomplish this or
    any of the other "commands" (I'll use this word for now) in the New
    Testament. It is literally beyond us.
    
    The only way that this can be done is through God's grace. By that, I
    mean God's active working of His grace in our hearts so that the lures
    of this world become less and less appealing to us. The work is
    entirely His; anything we try to do to deny ourselves, to force growth,
    or to turn away from temptation, is done in our own strength and often
    (but not always) does more harm to us than good. God's grace is
    something that we may ask for and receive, and there is no substitute
    for it. The reception of God's grace through Jesus Christ is the
    foundation for all of Christianity, but it is also the thing with which
    most of us struggle in one area or another.
    
    For example, what motivation is there for us to ask God to make the
    lures of this world less and less appealing to us if He does not give
    us something to replace them? The truth is that the vast majority of
    our desires are not necessarily in and of themselves evil, though it is
    possible to have evil desires. But the desire for pleasure, for
    example, is given to us by God Himself! However, in many cases, the
    ways by which we seek to fulfill that desire are ultimately snares for
    us that cause us to take our eyes off Jesus and focus on them, perhaps
    even making false gods of them.
    
    But God is very much interested in fulfilling the desires of our hearts
    and even promises to do that very thing, as we delight ourselves in Him
    (Psalm 37:4). The key is in discovering what the desires of our hearts
    really are.
    
    If I may ask a question in return, if you had the opportunity to ask
    God for anything at all, what would you ask for? This may be too much
    of a public forum to discuss this, but it is the avenue by which the
    true desires of your heart may be discovered. It may surprise you to
    learn what they are.
    
    With love in Christ,
    
    -- Daryl

Hi,

I am not a regular here but I heard about this topic, and I wanted to put in my
two cents worth.

I would believe that scripture has the  right to speak into us its truth, even
where it is not understood.  I believe that  this is one of those occasions.  In
our own minds we can squeeze and push scripture into the mold that is
comfortable for us, what seems to make sence to our mind and what is in
relationship to our experiance.  The Word is not ment to be another method of
determining reality, but it is THE reality, not just as real as my experiance
allows it to be.

The context for the scripture is is to rejoice always, pray without ceasing and
then in everything giving thanks - but why - because this is the will of God in
Christ Jesus.  I guess that if it is God's will and it is not delimited by stuff
( in certain circumstances it is ok not to ) then DO it and be obediant.  Maybe
there is more reality to be experianced than we have already.

Tim

    
    re 1.  what is obedience anyway
    
    Obedience is doing What God tells us to do, When God tells us to do it,
    WITH THE RIGHT HEART ATTITUDE.   
    
    so if we are truly obedient then we are also thankful.
    
    

 It is also NOT doing what God tells us NOT to do, something I seem
 to not be very good at lately.




 Jim

    We humans are incapable of obeying God; we simply do not have what it
    takes. We are too selfish, too concerned with our own desires, too
    easily tempted, and too interested in being in control, and in reality,
    in being God, to be capable of obeying Him. That is why He provided the
    law, that we might see our sin and die.
    
    Only God can obey God, that is, only He can do what God wants, when God
    wants it, and with the right heart, and avoid doing what God does not
    want. He knew that, and so He provided Jesus to die for our sins and to
    give us the Holy Spirit, by which we might obey God -- not in our power
    or by our own will or desire, but by His. That is the meaning behind
    James 4:5! So our walk with the Lord is a process of letting go of our
    own will and surrendering in favor of His perfect will. This is how we
    can do all things -- through Him, Who gives us strength.
    
    In His love,
    
    -- Daryl

Everything in our lives has to flow from our Love of God, and from the
resultant flow of God's power into and through our lives.  Anything we try to
do apart from that is effectively an attempt to justify ourselves before God
by our works.  Everything we do must originate in that Love.  The Shema,
recited daily by orthodox Jews for millenia, is NOT "Hear O Israel, the Lord
our God, the Lord is One.  And you shall obey the commands of the Lord with
all your heart and with all your soul and all your strength."  It says "You
shall LOVE the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all
your strength."  There's a world of difference.

As we grow in the Lord, the Lord Himself will call us to deeper and ever
deeper places with Him.  But I think that we do - the church through history
has done - tremendous damage to many people by calling them to actions and
attitudes that the Lord has not yet called them to.

For example, I started with entries in this note proclaiming how the Lord has
been showing me recently that I should praise Him for everything, and what a
glorious thing that has been for me.  What I didn't say is that I've been
through a three-year process of being in the refiner's fire, and that much of
that time I've been anything BUT rejoicing.  If someone just told me three
years ago that God wanted me to rejoice my reaction would have been the same
as yours.  But I HAVE spent those three years deepening my relationship to
the Lord.  And through that deepening relationship, GOD called me to (and
accomplished) praising Him in - and FOR - everything.  It was the
relationship and love and GOD that did it, not my attempts at obedience. 
"After you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called
you to His eternal glory in Christ, will **HIMSELF** perfect, confirm,
strengthen, and establish you." (I Pet 5:10, emphasis mine)  It is **HIS**
job to perfect us.  Our job is simply to "Walk in the light" (Jn 11:9-10) -
to stay close to Jesus.  It is His job to do the rest.

The same goes for several other suggestions in this note.  Tim's call in .40
to obedience to the Word, whether or not we understand it from our
experience, is right on the money.  It is an essential step in the walk of
faith.  But I know Tim, and I know that for him the desire to be obedient
comes directly out of a deep, deep love of the Lord.  The Love came first -
the obedience is a result.  To engage in the obedience because we "should"
doesn't help anyone - that's the law, that's not grace.

I was using an analogy about this recently.  Picture our bodies - our lives -
as the ancient Temple.  The Word says that our bodies are a Temple of the
Holy Spirit.  When we accept Christ, He takes up residence in the Holy of
Holies, just as YHWH took up residence in the cloud that entered the first
Temple when it was dedicated.  The only difference is that since Christ's
crucifixion, the curtain around the Holy of Holies has been torn from top to
bottom, and we can now enter freely to be with Christ.

Now some people are content, after inviting Him to enter in, to just leave
Him there, and never go in to the Holy of Holies for fear of what He might
say.  After all, other people who have been in there start saying all sorts
of things about giving up things, and rebuilding the temple, and other things
that seem very unpleasant.  And so the Temple stays just as it was - full of
animals and money-changers and all sorts of other unclean stuff.  We could
have a big doctrinal debate over whether Jesus stays in the Holy of Holies if
you never visit Him, or if He leaves, but let's skip that. :-)

Anyway, some people go into the Holy of Holies and spend time with Jesus. 
At first, Jesus just loves them and lets them delight in His presence, but as
the people come to know Him and love Him more, He starts telling them about
some changes that the Temple could really use.  Perhaps the first thing He
will tell them is to get rid of the money-changers and the animals.  Now the
person has heard this suggestion before, from others who have been in the
Holy of Holies, and it has always seemed like a crazy suggestion.  It was one
of the main reasons why he hesitated about going into the Holy of Holies in
the first place.  But now, coming from Jesus, the suggestion seems totally
different.  Somehow now it just seems so RIGHT.  And joyous to follow, not a
burden.  And besides that, Jesus says that He will help.  And so the person,
together with Jesus, does that.  He drives out the money changers and removes
the animal stalls, and cleans up all the dung.  He looks around at the Temple
and says "Wow, this place really looks better.  I'll bet Jesus is pleased
with how His temple is cleaned up."  

And he's right, Jesus is pleased, and Jesus affirms for him "Well done, the
Temple looks so much better.  I am pleased with you."  But Jesus isn't done. 
After a while, as he spends more time in the Holy of Holies with Jesus, Jesus
will call him to clean out something else.  And then something else.  Jesus
will get to the point of telling him to pick every grain of sand out of the
cracks in the cobblestones with tweezers.  That may sound like a burden, but
done side-by-side with the Lord is it pure joy.  And when it's done he feels
that Jesus is REALLY pleased with the Temple now.  And Jesus *is* pleased,
though actually no MORE pleased than when the animals were cleared out.  It's
not the works that please the Lord, it is living in union with Him and
listening to His voice.

But Jesus still isn't done.  When that is done (what a beautiful Temple!),
after a while Jesus will say "Now, we have to tear this temple down to the
ground and rebuild it.  My original plan was not for it to be built with
crude limestone and mortar.  It is to be built with laser-cut marble, fitted
together so that not a hair can pass between the blocks."  Again, it is a joy
to do when the Lord calls and when it is done with Him side-by-side.  And
when that's done there's more.  Jesus is NEVER done with the temple.

What we always do, though, is try to get other people to undertake the same
step that the Lord has us on.  Suppose the Lord has brought you to the point
of rebuilding the temple out of marble.  If you tell someone who has just
invited Jesus into the Temple and hasn't even been convicted yet to drive out
the money-changers "You really need to tear the temple down and rebuild it
out of marble," they'll just be discouraged.  One of two things will happen
if they are foolish enough to listen to you.  They might just be be totally
discouraged by this news and will be driven away from the Lord, afraid to go
into the Holy of Holies at all because if Jesus is going to tell them to tear
down the temple then He's just too hard of a master.  Or, out of guilt and a
sense of duty, they will start to try to do the job in their own strength.
This is just a total miserable burden when the Lord has not called them to it
and when He is not with them helping them every moment.  It is doomed to
failure from the beginning and will only wound them deeply, if not destroy
them.

So the more I learn, the more I think that rather than telling people
specifics about what action or attitude they should be having, we should
spend most of our time encouraging people to get into the Holy of Holies - to
spend time in the Word, spend time in prayer, spend time in the fellowship of
the Body, spend time with JESUS.  Draw near to God, and He will draw near to
you.  And let Jesus do the rest.  He will.  I read this week a quote from
C.S. Lewis "You defend God the way you defend a lion - you open the cage, and
get out of the way."

The other things we can do are to join Jesus in affirming how wonderful their
temple looks now that the money-changers and animals are gone, though Jesus
may have us tearing down the marble temple by now to rebuild it out of
something more perfect.  We can let people know that Jesus will always be
with them to help them if they listen to Him and do what He asks, and that
the tasks HE calls them to may be difficult, but will never be a burden.  We
can let people know that the process of working on the temple will never be
done, but that Jesus will be pleased with every step.

So I'm not going to tell you any more to obey the Word more closely, or to
rejoice in difficult circumstances because that is God's will for you, or
that you have to die to self, or anything like that.  

Just get closer to Jesus.  Invite Him into more of your life.  Tell Him that
you desire a deeper relationship, but that you don't know how.  As Tony said
early on in this note, tell Him that you're willing to be made willing.  And
then do what He says.

Open the cage that each of us has built around himself, to let God in.  And
then get out of the way.

Paul

    wow!  was that Paul?  

    re: .39
    
    Hi Daryl,
    
     No problem disclosing this in a public forum at all. This request I
    would ask would be in 2 parts though. First, lock up the devil, and his
    army, and throw away the key. Second, restore earth to it's pre-fall
    condition.
    
     Lots of reasons for this request. #1 reason I have thought of for many
    years is way back at the garden, did God give Adam a pre-test quiz? No!
    So here, God put Adam vs. satan in a test. satan, being the most subtile
    beast, vs Adam, the new creature, without much experience, and certainly
    not ready for a test that would determine the outcome of mankind. But
    God did it anyway, already knowing the outcome.
    
     Going back to the analogy of being fish in the bowl of life, God added
    yet another ingredient, a very angry shark, (satan) and 1/3 of the angels
    who fell, to harass, torment, and bring as many of the "helpless
    sheep-fish creatures" to hell with them. "Woe to the inhabitants of the
    earth, for the devil is come down having great wrath, and but a little
    time" Perhpas God should have sent his enemy to an uninhabited planet,
    instead of where his beloved creation was living?
    
     Years ago, I was told that God hasn't wrapped up the enemy yet, to
    prove to the remaining 2/3 angels that what He was doing (in vanquishing
    satan from heaven, and to his pending eternal heated place) was proper,
    and satans actions since being cast out of heaven has probably proved
    this already, so end it! You have no idea how earnestly and sincerely
    my prayers to God to "re-write" parts of the book of Revelation have
    been! It is the most horrible chapter in the history of earth ever!
    It brings up all those senseless "why", and "how can a loving God"
    questions. This to me, is the "other side of God" that makes it so very
    hard to "trust" Him. Of course, there is the (what I consider) good
    side, that brought Jesus into the world for his act of sacrifice, which
    is beyond words to describe the intensity of this act. As well is it
    beyond words to descibe the intensity of the scenes set in Revelation,
    in the negative sense. Hell, in my understanding, makes the death camps
    of WW2 look like a nice day in a day care center by comparison. And
    hell was created for "the devil and his angels." NOT God's beloved
    creation, mankind. I often wonder what went on in the courts of heaven
    to come up with the "lets throw the devil to earth" solution? Was there
    some "deal" cut, where God has to abide by, thus giving the devil free
    reign over earth? 
    
     I find it terribly difficult to "love" this supreme being, because of
    my view of Him. First, being commanded to love Him, has always been
    something that bothered me. And to see His treatment of mankind over
    the ages, has always made me wonder if God really understands how hard
    it is to be human. (that is, until he experienced being human Himself).
    And to be expected to put total trust in this being, who is invisable, 
    incomprehensible, and (some say) in total control of the universe, is
    too much to ask from this one. Most (if not all) of what God asks (or
    commands) humans to do is beyond our ability. You speak of grace which
    enbles us. Where is it? When is His strength made perfect in my
    weakness? (which is great, and I freely admit it).
    
     I've read Job, so hold off on the "who am I to question God"
    statements. I agree with it. Who am I to question God? Just a piece of
    dust, who's questions haven't yet been answered, and may never be this
    side of eternity. Someday, if God ever gets around to answering
    requests about changing me, then I will probably shut up. Until then, I
    have to deal with the anger, frustration, and pain this life can cause.
    So if God would answer the request back in paragraph 1, this would end,
    not only for me, but for all, this insanity that seems to be increasing
    here in this segment of the universe.
    
     There is much more, but I have to get back to my vacation.
    
    Bob

I'm not sure how to respond, Bob.  But just because my understanding can't
generate any kind of 'answer' doesn't mean that I should not recognize the
pain and confusion that comes through your note.

I hear, and I'm praying.....

Paul

    Hi Bob,
    
    And thanks very much for responding. I continue to appreciate your
    honesty. What I would like to do is to follow the request that you
    expressed back to its root in your heart. I am still somewhat wary
    about doing this in a place as public as this conference, but if you
    are willing, then I will continue for as long as I can here. If at any
    point this discussion becomes too sensitive, personal, or painful, just
    let me know, and I will stop. I will do my best to prevent that from
    happening, but you may have sensitivities that I can't anticipate.
    
    Your request was made in two parts, and you gave a number of reasons
    for them which I very much understand and sympathize with. 
    
    My next question is: If God were to do as you have asked, how would
    that affect you personally? In other words, what is there within your
    heart that is motivating you to ask for these things? What is the
    desired result that you are hoping would be achieved for you
    personally?
    
    With love in Christ,
    
    -- Daryl
    

    Now vacation is over, I can reply to earlier replies.  Again, thanks to
    all for your input.
    
    re: .3 I do give thanks for what I can, and ask for forgiveness where I
    haven't given thanks. I also give thanks for the things God has spared
    me from, both known, and unknown. As far as instilling in me a thankful
    heart, I am waiting.
    
    re: .4 I am not at the point I can do this without feeling like a liar,
    and a hypocrite.
    
    re: .5 Thanks Wayne, good stuff there. As with much, it requires God to
    do the enabling, as in my own strength, I cannot do it. I think I'm
    getting a better view of what Paul meant when he said "I know that
    within my flesh, dwelleth no good thing". But this brings up the
    question; Why do I have to repeatedly be sorry for things that are not
    my fault, such as being born, by default, into this state of ungodliness, 
    and human defect? I have gotten to the point of being tired of being
    tired of waiting for changes to be made, and am nearly continuously
    sorry for a condition which I had no choice in.
    
    re: .6 Once again, I agree with this, but it is much easier typed, than
    done. (or easier said than done.) Is my honesty, which seems to
    prevent me from being thankful, somehow connected with pride? I seem to
    be unwilling to be thankful for that which I am not truely thankful for.
    
    re: .7 Tony, Yes, there is MUCH not revealed to us at this time.
    Many years ago, I prayed the "make me willing to be willing" prayer.
    I do realize I am not ready to give up everything for the Lord. That
    would come after trusting Him, which I cannot honestly say I do at this
    time, partly because of the amount of things NOT revelaed to us, that I
    think would be needed in order to make a quality decision. Is this
    asking too much? It would require less faith, as when there is knowledge
    of certain things, faith in "knowing God knows what He is doing" despite 
    what we see, would be easier. And I'm aware IF God wanted us to know
    these things, He would have explained it somewhere. And He has His
    reasons for not revealing many things.
    
    re: .8 Phil, this joy you and others talk about I have not yet found.
    Or been given may be a better statement. Worthy to suffer? I am dirt,
    lower than pond scum in the sight of a Holy God. I am not worthy of
    anything else but death. Is this persecution we are asked to endure for
    being Christians something I want? Certainly not. Is it a test God
    gives to see how much a person loves Him? Perhaps? I don't have the
    answers, and I'm sure I don't have all the questions, but I sure do
    have a lot of them.
    
    re: .9 Glen, If God so chose, He could enlighten us with anything He
    wanted to, without pain. If I have a choice (free will?) I would
    certainly prefer it this way. (yes, I know, His ways are not our ways,
    His thoughts are not our thoughts.)
    
    re: .10 Paul, when I try to give thanks for that which I am not really
    thankful for, it often comes out in a sarcastic manner, such as "thanks
    a lot for this, or that". I find it hard to deny my feelings about a
    matter, because they are in the same area as my intellect (the soul
    area, I think, which contains the mind, will, intellect, and emotions).
    I also feel rebellion for being asked something that is totally beyond
    my capabilities. Such as...rejoice always, be anxious for nothing...ask
    me to fly without wings, it might be easier. However, since you have
    experienced this process, I will try it even though it looks impossible
    to do from an honest heart. 
    
    re: .11 Mike, I know it says these things in the Bible, but I don't
    want to suffer anything for anyone. I don't even like suffering for the
    things I have done which would give God good reason to allow suffering
    to "chastise" me. So in the verses you wrote here, is this needed in 
    addition to the grace which saves me, for me to attain the resurrection
    of the dead? Not that suffering can be included in the "works" thing
    but I thought it was grace, and grace alone?
    
    re: .12 With God, all things are possible. I would prefer a different
    method of learning, without suffering. But this brings me to yet
    another question, discerning which part of what God is ABLE to do
    (which there is no limit) to what He is WILLING to do. This one drives
    me crazy. Knowing He could do anything, yet determining how much He is
    willing to do. 
    
    re: .15 Phil, did God give Adam all he should know prior to the test?
    God said, Do not eat of THAT tree, lest you will die." Adam should have
    asked" Ok God, what does die mean?" Or perhaps God should have said,
    Adam, do not eat of that tree or you will be the cause of the demise of
    civilization and a scapegoat for all to point their finger at. You will
    give over to my arch-enemy control of this paradise I have created for
    you, and not only death, but wars, pestilence, and untold atrocities
    will be commited by this one act of disobedience. Would Adam still have
    eaten of the forbidden fruit? I don't think so, but it's only a
    hypothetical situation anyway, seeing we are where we are now.
    
    re: .16 Mike, I understand the process of the making of diamonds, being
    under intense pressure for a long period of time. Diamonds, unlike
    humans, have no feelings or emotions. Like the story of the potter, and
    the clay, the clay has no method of response, or reaction. Humans do,
    but we must ignore them, and be quiet while we are being chipped away
    at? Ow Lord! easy with that chisel! And once again going back to the
    thought, knowing God could with a word, provide the finished product
    without the pain, and anguish life's little tribulations brings, and
    have a vessel with which to work with without the flesh getting in the
    way...this would be ideal.
    
    re: .17 Mike, I think it's hard to distinguish between the chastisement
    of God, and the wrath of the devil. God's wrath should not be released
    on His own. But, is not all humanity His? Way back when Moses was told
    by God "go tell thy people" Moses came back with "Lord they are YOUR
    people". God was quick to disown the stiff-necked rebellious nation.
    Moses reminded God of His promises to Abraham, and God repented of the
    evil He had planned on doing. (I can't remeber exactly where in the
    Bible this can be found, but I remember it as a teaching from somewhere)
    Point being, God should have long ago realized that humans are not a
    very trainable species. Biblical history tells of how Isreal did evil
    in the sight of the Lord again, and again and again. We just don't
    learn. But God continues to treat us in the same manner, obey, or
    suffer the consequences. It is hard to obey, especially when it is
    against our very own inherited nature to do such.  Despite the suffering
    I have done for my past transgressions, I think I would still do many
    of them again. My old nature isn't willing or able to give up these
    things yet. Oh, but the Bible says in Galations 2:20 my old nature is
    dead! This must be by faith, because by sight, it is very much alive,
    breathing, and wanting.
    
    re: .18 Paul, was there a time when you would question God's judgement?
    How long did it take to stop? It is not easy to do as instructed in
    Proverbs 3:5-7.
    
    re: .20 I would think myself crazy to ask God to use pain to make me
    grow. I would prefer to not grow. I hate pain that much.
    
    re: 22 Jill, I have heard this verse used for years. I must know the
    truth, as Jesus said He IS the truth, but set free? Not yet. I feel
    like I'm forever trapped in Romans 7.
    
    re: .23 2Co 10:5. In doing this, it allows me no thought other than
    what God tells me to think. This gives no room for any questioning.
    Only trust, and faith, in God. I'm not there yet. As many people are
    not. The Bible talks of people having itching ears, hearing only what
    they want to hear. I personally don't know ANYONE what wants to hear
    what they DON'T want to hear. Christian, or not. Whether or not we NEED
    to hear what we don't WANT to hear is another story. Another case of
    God knowing what we need/want vs. what WE think we need/want.
    
    re: .27 At this point, I am questioning ALL I think I know, or
    understand. I fear God, and it is natural to fear that which we don't
    (and cannot) understand. I respect God because of His awesome power.
    But I once found myself angry at Jesus when I read in John 17:15 "I pray 
    not that thou shouldest take them out of the world..." I want out! I have 
    wanted out since I knew there WAS an out. I don't see what impact I can 
    have on this world. It is a God size  problem, that only God can fix. I 
    don't like being here in the middle of this universal war going on in the 
    next dimension (which happens to be quite noticable in this one). I don't 
    want to  "endure hardship, like a good soldier..." because I don't want to 
    be in the war! If asked to choose sides, of course I would choose to be
    on the side of God, as it is the only logical choice. But who is standing 
    up for the human race? God seems to be split on this, saving some, and
    not saving others.
    
    re: .34 Thanks Pam! I felt better after "dumping" all that I had been
    keeping within, and silent about for far too long. As far as sharing
    the experiences, I haven't like doing that, for much of it is very
    personal between God & myself. I only decided to open up and expose the
    inner me because of the encouragement to continue to be honest. Perhaps
    it will help someone some day who has to go through this too?
    
    re: .40 Tim, I agree, there is far more reality to experience that what
    we currently do. This is different for each individual, as we are all
    on different levels in everything, including spiritual understanding.
    Do it and be obedient. Once again, easier typed, than done.
    
    re: .41 Great point! The right heart attitude! So now tell me, how can
    I change my attitude? I can change external things about myself, but
    the inner things are beyond me.
    
    re: .42 Jim, same here. Romans 7. When it is pleasing to me, and NOT
    pleasing to God, I seem to, by default, choose to please me. Maybe
    someday I will want to please God, more than pleasing myself, but at
    this point, to stop doing the things I find pleasure in, I don't find
    pleasing to think about doing. As far as something replacing it as
    Daryl mentioned earlier, that would have to happen. Or I'd seek to fill
    this empty void with something else.
    
    re: .43 God seems quite hesitant to "empower" me with "His strength".
    One drop (if His power could be equated to an ocean) of His strength
    could give a person ability to do things God doesn't want done at this
    time Like casting the devil into the pit, and sealing the opening. God
    can't trust me with power like that. I'd do it if I could.
    
    re: .44 Excellent advice, wish I thought I could follow it.
    
    re: .48 Daryl, I think it is the combination of the pain I experience
    for whatever reasons, AND the pain of seeing the world in the condition
    it is in. Sometimes, I can't tell which affects me more. To stop all pain 
    and suffering (and the horrible parts of Revelation to come) would make
    the view of a loving God much easier. Knowing myself fairly well, I can
    see what makes others "tick", and it hurts me to think and see the pain
    they themselves experience. You can treat the symptoms temporarily, but
    why not go to the cause, which is satan and sin in the world. Remove
    him, and it goes too. Restore the earth to pre-fall condition, and
    there is no pain for anyone. But then, SO much is SO beyond my
    understanding as to why, and why not questions...I won't bother 
    asking anymore.
    
     Regardless of what I think, God is God, and God is right. I may not
    agree with Him, but that doesn't change anything. To accept the reality
    I perceive (and it is an ugly reality) will take an act of God.
    
     Perhaps this time of earth's history is just a lesson to all that are in 
    heaven, and may be added in the future, that you NEVER go up to God and
    say, "I want to sit in your throne".
     
     I can only speculate on the unknown/unrevealed. And maybe I shouldn't
    even do that. It takes "walking by faith, and not by sight" to believe
    God cares much about us, in viewing the world through my eyes. What was
    done 2000 years ago on the cross is beyond words of thanksgiving, *IF*
    my name is in the book. That's the bottom line here. Is your name in
    THE book? *IF* mine is, I have enough reason to love God in return.
    *IF* not, then how can I? How can I KNOW if it is, until I get there?
    
    More another time, maybe. I feel over-exposed.
    
    Bob
     

Hi, Bob.

I think you misunderstood me.
    
|   re: .23 2Co 10:5. In doing this, it allows me no thought other than
|   what God tells me to think. This gives no room for any questioning.
|   Only trust, and faith, in God. I'm not there yet. As many people are
|   not. The Bible talks of people having itching ears, hearing only what
|   they want to hear. I personally don't know ANYONE what wants to hear
|   what they DON'T want to hear. Christian, or not. Whether or not we NEED
|   to hear what we don't WANT to hear is another story. Another case of
|   God knowing what we need/want vs. what WE think we need/want.

** "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the
   weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the
   pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down reasonings, and every high thing
   that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into
   captivity every thought to the the obedience of Christ; And having in a
   readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled."
   (2Co.10:3-6, KJV)

   I have come to understand this passage NOT as God wanting to tell me what to
   think, but rather as God wanting me to share ALL my thoughts with Him.  I
   regard the reasoning that exalts itself against the knowledge of God as the
   thought that we can hide anything from Him.  In other words, the notion that
   I can't share ugly things with God because I'm bad and He's good.  Do we
   really think God doesn't see our hearts whether we're honest with Him and
   ourselves or not? :-)

   The truth in this passage frees me from deciding what God wants me to share
   with Him--He wants me to yell at Him, if that's what on my heart.  He wants
   me to confess (say the truth about) my real feelings.  Why?

   Get everything on the table, look at it, and give it to God.  Tell Him,
   look, that's me.  That's the way I think and feel, and I can't change it!
   Lord, if there's change, then you've got to do it.  I'm sick and tired of
   being sick and tired!

   God is in the business of TRANSFORMING our sin into His righteousness.  We
   cooperate with His work by giving Him everything, especially that in us
   which we regard as the worst!

   Whom do we think we're fooling?  I think our greatest problem is NOT in
   giving the best of ourselves, but in giving the worst!

   We give thanks because we are not thankful (but want to be).  We give our
   sin because we are not righteous (but want to be).  I regard God's grace as
   the desire ("want to") and the power ("can do") He gives to accomplish His
   work in us.  Having the "want to" with the realization that "I can't, but
   He can" is the beginning of wisdom.

   Confession really is just agreeing with God about what He already knows, WE
   ARE SINNERS, BASICALLY LIKE IT, AND ARE POWERLESS TO CHANGE!  Confession, I
   believe, is where we begin letting the mind of Christ be in us.

   So, I submit that you've misinterpreted 2Co.10:5 if you think God here asks
   you to think His thoughts.  What He asks here is that you give Him your
   questions, frustration, anger and disillusionment.  Don't hold for yourself
   the right to determine what God wants from you.  Give Him everything, chaff
   and grain together.  You can even tell God there's some stuff you'd prefer
   that He not change (as if He didn't know that already)! :-)

   Again, I regard God's work in me not so much replacing my bad with His good
   as transforming my bad into His good.  We are losing nothing, rather gaining
   Him.

/Wayne

    
    Bob,
    
    I can offer you nothing that will answer your questions or relieve your
    pain for to do so would be nothing more than what Job's friends did for
    Job when he was suffering with pain and questions.
    
    All I can do is pray that the Lord would grant me the discerning heart
    to identify with you and what you suffer and remain silent, mourning
    when you mourn,laugh when you laugh and cry when you cry.  In that
    perhaps some comfort would come to know you are not alone in your pain.
    
    Bob

    In the final analysis, I would affirm Bob Poland's conclusion.
    
    And I would add that the stuff I shared was how I've come to
    understand things, not that my words are the answer to your struggle.
    If there's truth in my understanding, then God will commend it to your
    heart.  I shared with an appreciation of the struggle, NOT with an
    assurance of the answer.
    
    /Wayne

    Bob Shallow,
    
    I must confess as I read your writings [and I've heard you say these
    things to me], I am as much at a loss for words now as then.  I know
    suffering Bob...I've lived a life of constant suffering.  And I've been
    low in walk with God living in "self" condemnation all the while
    blaming God and being angry with Him for His lack of intervention in
    my life...  And with that I can honestly say I only have a glimpse of
    the anger you carry in your heart.
    
    I know not the answers to why, but I do know that what brought my heart
    into joy and comfort was when I began to ask God who He was to me, not
    just Savior, but Lord and Abba.  These questions are not fully
    answered, but I've begun to get a glimpse of God and my first reaction
    was true fear of the Lord.  This fear is not being afraid, but of
    reverence and acknowledgement of Who He Is.
    
    This is by no means meant to be an answer for you... but perhaps if
    you feel led, your journey towards Him can begin by simply asking Him
    to reveal Himself to you.  Then be open to receive His embrace.
    
    God will use someone to touch your heart in the place that only God
    knows about... and when you feel that touch you will know joy perhaps
    for the first time.  I believe it, friend.
    
    With hugs
    in Christ,
    Nancy

Bob...

Amen to what Wayne, Bob P, and Nancy said.

I know it isn't very satisfying - when I'm trying to find an "answer" and
people tell me things that don't provide the kind of answer I was looking
for.  But as Bob P. said, I don't think that the kind of "answer" you are
looking for can be provided, and any attempt to do so will only make things
worse.

All I can suggest is to tell God all that you're feeling (Yes, I know that He
knows, but tell Him anyway), and to ask Him to do the work in you of bringing
you to where He wants you to be.

I don't make that suggestion from a vacuum, but from what the Lord has led me
through in my life.  You asked whether I had gone through a time of
questioning God's judgement - of course, and I wouldn't be so bold as to say
that I'm done with that, though that seems to be at a pretty low ebb at the
moment, and constantly ask God to take it from me.  But God has changed me,
where I could not.  And He did it by leading me to constantly ask Him to do
the work in me, by coming to Him and saying:

 "I can't change my heart.  I *desire* to praise you and worship you in all 
 things, but my heart rebels, and my mind rebels even more than my heart.  If 
 You want me to worship you in Spirit and in Truth, then You are going to 
 have to do the work in me to make it possible.  I put myself entirely in 
 your hands, giving you full right and permission (though I know you don't  
 need it) to effect your purposes in my life."

He's brought me through to the place where I DO want to hear the things I
don't want to hear.  He's got me asking for those sorts of things all the
time.  Just this week, He brought me to ask Him to show me the fullness of
what a stench my pridefulness is to Him.  I haven't yet found out how He will
answer that one, but I trust that He will do it, and I trust, though I expect
His answer may not be exactly what I would call pleasant in the short-term,
that it will be joyous and full of life in the long-term.

Just ask, Bob, and keep asking.  I know you've been asking of God, but I
think perhaps you're doing what I'm finally beginning to learn not to do:

In all sorts of areas of life, we can easily fall to a pattern of:

1)Identifying a problem
2)Determining a solution
3)Asking 'experts' for help in implementing our solution.

I've noticed myself do this in countless areas, including here at work.  In
trying to solve some computer problem, I'll come up with a long and involoved
solution to a problem, and then ask someone who knows about that area of the
system to help me implement my solution.  After some long period of wrestling
with trying to get that solution to work, I'll mention what the original
problem was.  And then the person will say "Well, if that's the problem
you're trying to solve, then why not use this simple solution that you could
implement in an afternoon?"

A better pattern is:

1)Identify a problem
2)Lay the problem before 'experts' and ask for help in determining a solution

I think you're doing exactly what I have done my whole life.  The problem we
all face is how to follow God.  Our solution is typically to gain 'head'
understanding of what He wants, and then follow that understanding.  And then
we go to God to ask Him to help us implement our solution by giving us the
kind of understanding we want.

I think God wants us to back up a step, to give up our solution and stop
asking Him to help us implement it.  He wants us to ask Him for *HIS*
solution to the problem of how to follow Him.

And the Father has promised that He will not give us a stone if we ask for
bread.

I may very well have just done what I said at the beginning I didn't want to
do, and that was become one of Job's friends.  But there it is.

And I *WILL* be with you in prayer.

Paul

    Thanks again, for the encouragement, and advice, and also, thanks to
    those who have contacted me off line, via e-mail. And of course, thanks
    for the prayers.
    
    Wayne, I have already done what you suggested. I have shouted, cried,
    shook my fist, and cursed God more than once. In opening up myself in
    this forum, I have again brought up to God, and you things that seem to
    be driving me crazy.. I have asked God to remove the anger, bitterness, 
    and whatever else there is that is causing the "insanity" of questioning 
    the Almighty. Question: Are these questions MY thoughts, or are they
    the "fiery darts" of the enemy, cleverly disguised as my own thoughts?
    
    Bob, the only thing at this point that would end my pain, would be if
    everyone elses pain ended. I am nearly driven crazy by the viewing of
    current (and past, and especially future) life as we know it. I thank
    you for the kind words. I'm sorry, I get no comfort to know I am not
    alone in my pain. I would get comfort, if God, who says He is with me,
    and cries with me, and all that, would intervene more ON THE BEHALF OF
    mankind, and rid the world of the enemy which He threw down here.
    
    Nancy, I'm sorry you have experienced a life of constant suffering. I'm
    sorry ANYONE has to. I'm very aware there are those that are suffering
    that makes mine look like I'm having a wonderful time. No one but God
    can answer mine, and probably millions of others questions. Many times
    in the past I have asked God questions, and it seems the answer was...
    "Even if I took the time to explain it to you, you do not have the
    capacity to understand." So I asked for greater capacity. This has not
    yet happened, and may not until (and IF) I am allowed into heaven. Oh
    well. Learning to live with this is not easy. So many places in the
    Bible the phrase "for those who love Him" is used. This must be the
    "conditional" promises. I can't force myself to love God, or anyone
    else. If it ain't there, it ain't there. What do God and I have in
    common? Relationships are usually based on having things in common.
    I had a thought to begin another note on the reality of this subject.
    Perhaps I will still do that, but later.
    
    Paul, again, thanks. I think I've done that too, for the most part.
    It's a matter of waiting for God to change me, as I realize I cannot
    change years of thought patterns, or anything else that has contributed
    to my being the way I am at this moment. Because of the current view of
    God I have, I just cannot sit around, and sing happy happy joy joy
    songs to a God who allows/causes whatever for "His good pleasure".
    So many times, I have wanted to just walk away from all this, but I
    can't seem to do that either. I can't "not believe" in God. I can't
    understand how atheists don't believe in God. The universe is too
    orderly, the human species so complex, the variety of species here on
    earth too many to number... To have a creation, which this is, there
    has to be a CREATOR. But to change the view of God, from the "mad
    scientist shaking up test-tube earth" to that of the loving God you all
    say you experience, despite what you see with your natural eyes, as I
    said, will take an act of God. If He decides to be merciful, then He
    will do it. I cannot find his arm to twist it. I cannot manipulate Him
    by emotional outbursts. When I went on a quest to "seek God's face", I
    think I found it, and He was NOT smiling. In having Him reveal Himself
    to me, I feel like Michael Sweet's song..."I'm sick of myself when I
    look at you." And to have Him continue to reveal the ugly sinful me
    I've come to know, and abhor in His sight, doesn't make me feel at all
    good about myself. But going back to previous statements, IT'S NOT MY
    FAULT!, Or yours, or the millions in 3rd world citizens who die daily,
    at the invisable hands of an enemy God decided to throw down here on
    earth. Doesn't sound like much of a punishment to me. Sounds like God
    gave His enemy earth as a playground, and us as his toys. Oh yeah, Adam
    did it...but I covered that, so why be redundant?
    
    Got work to do...sorry for anything that offends anyone here. It is not
    meant to. Nor do I wish to turn anyone against God. My pitiful lack of
    understanding is sad. Why I am like I am, I do not know. Why God hasn't
    changed me, I don't know even more. It isn't for me not asking.
    
    Bob

    RE: .55
    
    Bob, I hear you.  And if I hear you, then I know God does!  Your pain
    has touched my heart, and there are no more words that I would give in
    terms of advice or suggestion.  One thing I've learned is that God isn't
    a vending machine--we don't pick and choose, put in money, push a button,
    and get what we thought we wanted/needed.
    
    Moreover, those closest to me, like my wife and kids, if made to feel
    "safe" in being honest, would no doubt say that my walk does not match
    my talk.  Like you, I often look at myself and say, what a wretch!  I
    fall so short of what I think God wants me to be.
    
    But then I realize that what I THINK OR FEEL God wants me to be may not
    be at all what He actually sees.  So, in terms of beauty and righteous-
    ness, I walk by faith.  God has predestined me and all who believe to
    be like Jesus, and when our faith becomes sight, we will in fact be
    like Him.  I may or may not see myself like Jesus before then.  So, my
    words more often than not describe Jesus as He is revealed to my heart
    by God's Word and Spirit rather than me as I perceive myself to be.  I
    believe God can do what He says, so I'm confident talking about myself
    in terms of what I see Jesus to be because our Father said I'll be like
    Him, when all is said and done.
    
    Bob, your words indicate to me that God is in fact working in you.  I
    have not heard you say that because God hasn't changed you, you there-
    fore think He can't.  In fact, you've confessed that God can change you,
    but that He apparently hasn't yet.  And you've confessed that if you
    change, then God must do the work because you can't.  You've asked how
    could people not believe in God.  You've confessed that despite very much
    wanting to despair you persevere.  You've confessed great struggle with
    suffering and sin, not just your own, but also others.  I've nowhere seen
    or heard you deny Jesus as the Christ of God.  Bob, I don't believe you
    could confess such things apart from God's grace.  So, believe it or not,
    God is being glorified in your raw honesty!  Job did not charge God
    foolishly, and I've not heard you charge God foolishly, either.  You
    have not called evil good and good evil.
    
    And, Bob, I'm not in the least offended by your honesty because the
    struggle you describe is real and true.  We may not wrestle with the
    same sins, but we all wrestle with sin.  Even though you claim to have
    neither seen God smiling nor experienced His joy, I know He desires that
    you know His love and the peace that goes beyond understanding.  Why you
    have yet to know love, joy and peace I cannot say.
    
    C.S. Lewis said he was drawn "kicking and screaming" into the kingdom
    of God.  That was not my experience, but seems closer to yours.  Have
    you read any of his books?  He was very honest with his thoughts and
    feelings.
    
    /Wayne

    A recommendation for a couple of books is not what you probably want
    to see, somehow it doesn't seem like the kind of personal response
    you need.  But I do have a few book recommendations if you're interested.

    I'll have to look them up at home.  One I am reading now (just started
    actually), but haven't finished, but I have the feeling it might be 
    helpful to you is "Beyond Identity" by Dick Keyes.  Dick is associated 
    with L'Abri Fellowship.  Actually, I think you might be interested in what
    L'Abri has to offer.  I'll post something about them that was in a brochure 
    about an upcoming conference they are holding.  The brochure is also at 
    home, so I'll have to do that tonight.

    Leslie  

    Hi Bob,
    
    What I would really like to do, if you were willing, would be to
    explore with you the depths of your heart. However, this medium is just
    too confining, and also too public, for that. I find that even my next
    set of questions for you is ill-suited for this environment, or for any
    electronic or remote environment. We would really need to meet in
    person to deal with some (if not all) of the things that I have a
    feeling would be revealed. If the Lord wishes for this to happen, He
    will work it out.
    
    In any event, all I can offer you right now is the assurance that He
    Who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it until the
    day of Christ Jesus, our Lord. He does not require that you be
    faithful; He is, and that is enough. All He asks is that you continue
    to be honest and real before Him. My prayer is that He would bring
    someone to you who could serve you in the capacity of James 5:13-16. In
    the meantime, I would like to offer Psalm 13 in the hope that it might
    echo a small part of what is in your heart.
    
    With love in Christ,
    
    -- Daryl

    Bob,

    Here is some information about L'Abri from their brochure about an
    upcoming conference.  I'll put the information about the actual
    conference in the upcoming events note.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    What is L'Abri?

    L'Abri began in Switzerland in 1955 when Francis and Edith Schaeffer 
    decided in faith to open their home to be a place where people might 
    find satisfying answers to their questions and a practical demonstration
    of Christian care.  It was called L'Abri, the French word for "shelter,"
    because they sought to provide a shelter from the pressures of a relent-
    lessly secular 20th century.  As time went by, so many people came that
    others were called to join the Schaeffers in their work, and more
    branches were established.

    There have been perhaps four main emphases in the teaching of L'Abri.
    First, that Christianity is objectively true and that the Bible is 
    God's written word to mankind.  This means that biblical Christianity
    can be rationally defended, and honest questions are welcome.  Second,
    because Christianity is true, it speaks to all of life and not to some
    narrow religious sphere.  Much of the material produced by L'Abri has
    been aimed at helping develop a Christian perspective on the arts, 
    politics [though I would not label L'Abri political], social sciences, 
    etc.

    Third, in the area of our relationship with God, true spirituality is seen
    in the lives of those who by grace are free to be fully human rather than
    in trying to live on some higher spiritual plane or in some grey negative
    way.

    Fourth, the reality of the fall is taken seriously.  Until Christ returns,
    we and the world we live in will be affected by the disfigurement of sin.

    Although the place of the mind is emphasized, L'Abri is not a place for
    "intellectuals only."  We are as concerned for living as we are for 
    thinking, and from the beginning the concern has been that the truth
    is as much exhibited in everyday life as it is defended in discussion.
    We do not do this perfectly, of course, but depend on the Lord to bring 
    forth a measure of reality in our daily life. 
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I cannot say enough about this place.  I came to L'Abri about 20 years
    ago, fresh out of college, bewildered about my place in life and feeling
    both insignificant and directionless for the future.  It was there that 
    I began to really see and know, not just on an intellectual sphere, that 
    the reality of God encompassed every aspect of life, and that with God 
    life is full and wonderful.  It was there that I gained a foundation that
    has helped me get through hard times, and thoroughly enjoy the good times,
    with the same hope and security through both.  Maybe a couple of poems can
    more adequately express this.

    For Kathy - March 1977              
                                                                                
    My world is changing.               
    Always slipping, sliding, rearranging.
    I try to hold it stable,              
    But always, I am unable.              
    The tighter I try to hold together,   
    The more the pieces slip,             
      fly away like feathers.             
    I search for stability,               
    But find I've lost the plausibility   
    Of every establishing peace,          
      eternal structure.                  
    A human glue of super strength        
    Can never stop the rupture            
    Of people, places, things and thoughts.
    Where's the continuity ?               
                                                                                
    The Lord is my refuge and my strength. 
    In Him I find peace eternal, 
    Normality, and all reality.
    

            True Fruit

    In ripeness of time shall come Echad
    Whose Shekinah will give us light to see
    Now hidden intricacies 
        of creation's being and significance.
    HaMashiach, the One who is the Aleph and the Tav,
    The Word who spoke all words into existence,
    Shall reveal to us our place, the destiny
    Towards which we've been walking
    All during the years, the words, and deeds of our lives.
    Then, with clarity, we'll recognize
    Those appointed times of meeting
    When eternity broke through finate time,
    Momentarily revealing in concrete form
    ---- Lamb and exodus, 
         first fruits and latter harvest gathering,
         Solemn fasts and joyous feasts ----
    Heaven's greater reality.

    Leslie Johnson
    February 27, 1995

    There is L'Abri branch in Soughborough, MA.  You can spend time there
    as a "student".  You are assigned a mentor from one of the L'Abri 
    workers who will guide you in your studies based on what you tell them 
    your needs and questions are.  There are taped lectures, books, live 
    lectures, Bible studies, and discussion groups. Sometimes there are
    concerts, art exhibits, and drama productions.  Students spend a half 
    a day studying, and half a day working in the community - such things 
    as meal preparation, home repair, yard work & gardening, laundry, 
    etcetera.  I think the cost is $11.00 a day (not sure on this), and
    they will work out some sort of arrangement for those with financial
    difficulties.

    Leslie

RE: .56

 Thanks again Wayne. I was hoping (and kind of "ducking", wondering if God was
going to hit me with a lightning bolt) that I hadn't charged God foolishly. 
It's a thin line between questioning, and accusing. I'm somewhat aware that God
hears what I say, but His interest in it, unless it is through you, and others
here, isn't seen. After having a time with the "faith teachings", and coming 
away seriously confused, and disillusioned, I'm learning also that God isn't 
a vending machine. But at the same time, I do realize He knows infinitely better
than I what I need/want, but it's so hard to accept much of what is happening, 
and although I have read that "I am not my own, as I have been bought with a 
great price", it is very hard to "give in" to this. The thinking, and lifestyle
is so contradictory to what I have experienced in this life thus far.

 I have read some C.S. Lewis years ago, but don't really remember much of it.
Yes, it seems I'll go kicking and screaming into the kingdom too, unless God
effectuates change in me. And ONLY He can do it. If He so desires to. As far
as my own willingness, that should improve, as long as God does His thing, and 
restores the very damaged trust situation. Trust just isn't there automatically,
it is grown through time. And when it's suffered damage, it is even more 
difficult to bring back, or restore. But then, "Is there anything too hard for 
God"? Apparently, yes. Changing the will of fallen satan and his angels. But
when you bring "free will" into the equation, it complicates the situation
dramatically. 

 One verse, which caused me to shudder inside when I read it years ago..."It is
a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God", I am finding quite
true as He works in me. But not as terrible as going to hell, so I shouldn't
complain. Yet another scripture with a high degree of demand, "Do all things
without murmering and complaining", is not within my ability to do at this point.
Grace that enables...I wonder when it will come? Or if I even want it to, 
because of the known track of adding faith, and the purifing process that will 
surely follow.

 The other night, I heard a radio program, where the speaker talked of "God's
Glory", and how His saving of some brings Him Glory, and also His NOT saving
some also gives Him Glory. Anyone care to elaborate on first, what IS this
Glory spoken of, and also, how anyone being sent to hell can bring Glory to
God? Certainly NOT from anyone who is sent there!

RE: .57, 59, 60.

Thanks Leslie! If the doors I see opening in the not too distant future actually
stay open, I will be moving back to the east coast. This is so hard to accept,
as I detest winter, and love the California weather, but not the costs for the
extra sunshine. If I do move, the L'Abri Fellowship sounds very interesting, and
worth looking into.

RE: .58

 Hi Daryl, I'm not sure of what you have in mind, that couldn't be done openly?
I kind of like being in the "counsel of many" here in notes, as various views
can be commented on, and either approved or disappoved of. Since you're in VT, 
and if doors stay open, I'll be in (Brrrrrrrrrrr!!!) NH, meeting wouldn't be as
difficult as it currently is. If you don't feel comfortable in this forum to
explain "exploring the depths of my heart", then please send me mail, and we 
can discuss it off-line. 

 To any who wish to comment, do you think the "loving God" verses have any 
bearing on salvation? Will God save those who do not necessarily love Him?
Or does this just affect the "conditional" promises, while here on earth?

Bob

 Understand that the "terrible" does not have the meaning to which we might
 apply it today..though I may be in error as I don't have a KJV dictionary
 with me, I believe "terrible" can more correctly be intrepreted as "awesome"
 or something similar.



 Jim

    Hi Jim,
    
    I had to look it up, but in Hebrews 10:31, the KJV says; "It is a
    fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." The greek word
    used here is "Phoberos" {fob-er-os'} and the definition is as follows:
    
    AV - fearful 2, terrible 1; 3
    
    1) inspiring fear, terrible, formidable
    2) affected with fear, timid
    
    This is close in meaning to the verse in Philipians 2:12; "...work out your
    salvation with fear (phobos) and trembling". Does this mean I am only
    "partially" saved, by Grace, and partly saved by "working out my own
    salvation"? I think there was a topic on 3 part salvation earlier, or
    in an archived CHRISTIAN conference, where this was talked about.
    
    So much to know, so little capacity to understand. It only gets deeper.
    
    Bob

 Sorry..:-/





 Bob, Why not read 1John, and the gospel of John?  These speak so much of
 our Father's love and forgiveness..sometimes when we've been struggling
 and questioning (which I myself have been doing of late), it is good to
 go back to the basics of the Word..find a nice quiet place to go sit..I
 like to go to the ocean..and pray that God would clear your mind..and 
 just read the Word..read the psalms that speak of David's sin and restoration..

 
 he is the rewarder of those who dilligently seek Him




 Jim

    Re: 7.1099 & the past few weeks
    
     Since the arrival of my daughter and her travelling companions, I have
    tried my best to be a father/friend to my daughter, and a friend to
    Dave, and Caroline. In making the decision to not inform them of
    Carolyn's parents pending arrival on the day after they arrived, I was
    the "bad guy" with my daughter. I tried to explain to her that it was
    the right thing for me to do, as if I had told them of Carolyn's
    parents intentions, it would have caused them to immediately run again,
    and to where, they did not know. I could not have lived with myself if
    anything had happened to them because I had valued my daughters feelings
    over the "right thing" to do.
     
     While they were here, I invited them to attend church with me at
    Calvary Capo Beach, but they declined, opting rather to sleep until
    early to mid-afternoon regularly. I bent over backwards trying to make
    things as pleasant as possible, thus showing them a level of unselfishness 
    I didn't know I could attain. I encouraged them to pray often, especially 
    when major decisions were being made. I spoke with Dave about the Lord,
    and hope it did some good. He is facing returning to jail when he gets
    back east, and has a Gideons Bible they "borrowed" from a hotel room on
    their trip out, which I encouraged him to read. Kerri had accepted
    Jesus as her Savior sometime last year, and will hopefully cooperate
    with God in His dealings with her, as now she is 18, she has been "given"
    unto God in my prayers, and He will guide/direct/chastise as He sees
    fit to do, and in perfect love, unlike my own pitiful attempts to show
    "tough love" to my daughter, which was tough enough to cause her to
    decide to leave behind career opportunities that people dream of,
    weather New Englanders wish they had, and a dad with a broken heart,
    suffering for doing the "right" thing.
    
     The "house rules" which she wouldn't bend to were not so hard. Show me
    the respect I should be shown as her father, and a few moral rules that
    have been passed down from the 10 Commandments. These rules should
    have been laid down immediately upon arrival, but in my happiness of
    having my daughter with me, I waited until an incident that happened to
    explain "there has to be rules here" to her.
    
     Without getting into too much detail, on Thursday, we went to a
    meeting with an agency in Hollywood that was prepared to get Kerri
    started on a career path into TV/commercials/movies/modeling. She was
    ready to make a commitment, which would have meant staying in
    California for at least 15 - 18 months. On Friday morning, I woke up
    and found Dave laying next to Kerri on the floor, with his arm around
    her. I told him to get on the couch, as I didn't like what I saw. He
    did, but when I returned 2 hours later, he was once again on the floor
    next to Kerri. I told him again to get away from her, and on the couch.
    Kerri began to defend him, and developed a nasty attitude towards me,
    and started trying to manipulate me with her emotional outbursts. I
    calmly told her she didn't want to play "power trip" with me, and if
    she didn't improve her attitude, I would call and cancel the agency
    contract. She told me I had no right to threaten her, and got even
    angrier. I told her she has 3 hours to calm down, and start using her
    intellect to think with, and not her emotions. Within 2 hours, she was
    on the phone to her grandparents, asking if she could go back there, to
    which they agreed. ( a usual occurance in Kerri's life, as when her mom
    tried to teach Kerri respect, and use discipline, she would also run to
    her grandparents). In the next few days, Kerri didn't talk much with
    me, but I continued to bend, yet not give up my stand on her improving
    her attitude regarding having respect. Since she wouldn't talk with me,
    I wrote her letters in a notebook, which I hope was understood,
    explaining reasons for the decisions I had made which were not welcomed
    by her. But, regardless of my efforts, she wanted to go back to her
    friends, and the parties she was missing so much.
    
     In all this, I have been shown a parallel between Kerri & I (father/child)
    and God & I (Father/child). In knowing my ways were not her ways, how
    infinately much more are His ways different from my ways? In her
    treatment of me for not allowing her to do things I knew were not good, or
    right for her, she got angry, insulting, rude, and disrespectful towards  
    me. In my own relationship with God, I have done the same things in the
    past, and am quite ashamed of it. This is one of those things I had
    repeatedly asked God to change, as I felt I had no control over my
    reactions/responses, They always seemed unplanned, and impulsive 
    emotional reactions to God's not answering prayers in what I considered
    a timely manner. Or answering prayers in ways I had not asked too. I
    know He knows infinately more than I ever can, but it doesn't always
    come through when I am in the midst of a crisis, and need what I want,
    NOT want what I need. In all this, I can also feel to some degree how
    God felt when I raised my fist in defiance, thinking even for a moment
    that "I'm right, You're wrong", even knowing He is ALWAYS right.
    
     Sorry if this got wordy, and maybe "too much detail", but it may help
    someone who doesn't have kids to get a better understanding of the
    Father/Child relationship that exists between a human, and God. Being
    one who never liked any form of discipline, and rebelled at the drop of
    a hat, it is hard to be "whacked" by Someone you can't fight back with.
    
     In reflecting on one of my past comments, it is better to hear those
    things that I don't want to hear NOW, than to hear at a future time, 
    "Depart from me, I never knew you". 
    
     Thanks again for any and all who prayed, and is praying for the
    situation.
    
    Bob

    Hi, Bob.
    
    Thanks for sharing.  Please know I'm praying.
    
    Our Father certainly has a way of pointing things out to us through our
    children! :-)
    
    Anyway, that God is working in you seems obvious to me.  Just as
    Kerri's rebellion won't change the fact that you're her father, so your
    struggle/doubts/honesty won't change the fact that you're our Father's
    son.
    
    Your learner's heart is exemplary, especially through difficult
    situations.
    
    May you know the peace of God that goes beyond our understanding.
    
    /Wayne

Thanks for posting that, Bob.  I hear the struggle you're going through, and
what you're learning from it.  And lest there be any doubts that you did the
right thing, let me at least commend you for standing for what is right.  It
is SO hard to do, especially when someone you love is snarling in your face
and hating you for it.

Blessings,

Paul

    I don't know if I can add much to the previous two comments, but Bob I
    was in tears as I read through your note... 
    
    As always,
    your friend,
    Nancy

    I really appreciated it too.  Thanks for sharing.
    
    Jill