| Hi Bob,
� Can anyone explain who Babylon the Great is.
Throughout the Bible, Babylon is a place, and the spirit behind that place
as expressed through the people it affects.
The physical location of Babylon in Revelation is slightly contraversial,
as a place of secondary significance. It is generally recognised as being
a place identified as the heart of iniquity. The original Babylon was the
heart of idolatry, and when Israel sinned repeatedly through idolatry, that
was where they were taken in captivity - sort of rubbing their nose in it,
so that the horror of it would be some prevention from falling again in
that way.
Revelation 18 shows Babylon as the heart of trade and commerce, as well as
every other sin. Revelation 18:17-18 implies that it is visible from the
sea. Revelation 16, which describes the 'bowl' judgements focuses on the
Euphrates for the sixth bowl, from verse 12, and comes back to Babylon for
judgement with the seventh bowl in verse 19. Some might take the earlier
reference to the Euphrates to indicate the original location of Babylon.
The uncertainty lies in identifying where the Revelation Babylon is.
I believe the principle ideas are:
The original Babylon
On the basis of the name.
Rome
On the basis of it being the power base of the Roman empire,
perceived to rise again towards the end of the era. Specifically
identified as the city of seven hills, in Revelation 7:9
America
On the basis of it being the commerce centre of the western world,
and also in view of the corruption (idolatry) which comes from it.
Another factor to be considered in taking it as literal Babylon is the
explicit condemnation, and curse against it in Isaiah 13:
And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency,
shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. It shall never be
inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation:
neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds
make their fold there. But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and
their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell
there, and satyrs shall dance there.
Isaiah 13:19-21
- specifically the statement in verse 20, that it shall never again be
inhabited following God's overthrow of it. Some see this as fulfilled
following the Greek conquest, as it has been devastated through the
centuries. Some see it as not fulfilled until the millenium, as a place of
cursing. The former would seem to preclude it being referred to
specifically in Revelation, as it should be devastated by then. The latter
leaves room for it to be rebuilt and reestablished as a centre of
civilisation, but although Saddam Hussein is said to be rebuilding it, I
personally think that this is unlikely, as it would need to have become an
established cultural and commercial focus for the rest of the world, to the
extent that its destruction seems like the end of civilisation. The
accelerating fulfilment of prophecy, in terms of drawing together the
circumstances of the end times seems to me to bring Jesus' return closer
than the time to establish a world centre quite this radically.
Andrew
[ I've not been able to participate here much over the last months, due to ]
[ various commitments and pressures. I've been limited to 'mostly reading'. ]
[ This entry is primarily due to losing a crucial disc for the morning...! ]
|
| Just to extrapolate on what Andrew said, Babylon was never really
destroyed as Isaiah and Revelation describe. A lot of scholars think
that it will be rebuilt, which Saddam Hussein has been doing for the
last 20 years (I have pictures of some of the buildings and projects).
Saddam has even offered wealth for life for anyone who could duplicate
Nebuchadnezzar's hanging gardens.
I tend to agree with the literal Babylon view. Both Iran/Iraq are
currently stockpiling military & nuclear weapons from Russia. They now
have the technology to force themselves into a greater position.
Mike
|
| Just to add a bit to what Andrew said, Babylon (as used in Revelation)
is really a metaphor for the worldly system. It comprises both the
commercial and the spiritual systems. I'm not one to ascribe symbology
to everything in Revelation, but the case of Babylon is certainly
justified. Other places (e.g. Jerusalem, Egypt) are I believe often
used metaphorically as well (can't point you to bcv right now, though).
Even today, we speak of Wall Street, Madison Avenue, etc., not to refer
to the literal streets but to what they represent.
BD�
|
| It could not be the ancient Baylon the Great because Revelation was
written at the end of the first century and describes events yet to
happen.
Ancient Babylon was destroyed, wether or not Sadam Hussain will ever
succeed in rebuilding it or not, time will tell but for now we must
consider it as destroyed.
It can't be the commercial empires of the world or even the superpowers
of the world because both are said to be morning her destruction which
is yet to come. Both the mergants and the kings have been having
dealings (fornications) with her which again indicates some kind of
third party. Who today is getting rich by having dealings with both
governments and the commercial giants? Rev 17:1-5
Rev 18:21 talks about her/its destruction and warns us to get out of
her if we don't want to be destroyed with her/it. It must be some kind
of organisation that we as people can belong to. I don't think its a
political party. Hoever she/it is, we don't want to be there when she/it
gets destroyed. I am convinced it must be symbolic for something as
most of the book of revelation is something that was given to John in a
dream.
|
| Ultimately, Babylon is a religious form that is an apostasy from
the pure and that won't ever be pure, but will someday be so dark
that there will be no light in her at all. (I say this because
I believe some can be saved within Babylon at the *present* time.)
My belief is that salvation is from sin and that one of the hallmark
characteristics of Babylon's theology is that we can never overcome
sin by the blood of the Lamb, i.e. the love of Christ could never
motivate us to perfectly obey Him.
I don't mind saying this as this is the Christian Conference and
you asked. The whore of Babylon, at the very least, is inclusive
of the Roman Catholic Church - by that I don't mean her individual
members, but rather its ecclesiastical set-up. The papacy, etc.
But, if you check Isaiah 4, all 7 women have the bread how they want
it. All churches return to the whore.
Anyway, I thought I ought give a direct answer to your direct
question. If there are any Catholics reading, I am sorry if I
have offended you. I am not saying you are not Christian.
Tony
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