Conference yukon::christian_v7

I would like to recommend that you read atlana::christian_v6, note 32.*,
entitled "Tithing - Biblical Principle or Old Testament Law".  In that
topic I had a friendly debate with Mark Metcalfe on the issue which you
are inquiring about.

    
    Hi Thomas,
    
    Yes, do tithe - cheerfully!
    
    The relationship between the Old Testament and the New Testament is
    this - God is speaking in both to all of us.  Keep this in mind.
    
    jeff

    dir/title=tithing

    Thomas,
    
    I have thought of this theme for many years. In the last years I have
    found something new (at least to me) and I hope it will be of benefit
    to you.
    
    Many years ago I read a book by Watchmann Nee. He talked about
    something he understood, and I am beginning to understand what he
    meant. When Jesus is Lord of our lives, this, of course includes Lord
    over our posessions too. The Law was a shadow in the old testament, but
    the spirit of God was God's plan from the beginning. Moses was full of
    God's spirit, so much so that his face shone. He talked with God face
    to face. But the israelites didn't know God in this way. They once said
    to Moses, as God began revealing himself to them in essence, 'Tell God 
    not to speak to us. Let God speak to you and you tell us what we are to 
    do'.
    
    This is NOT the way of the new covenant which Jesus made through his
    blood, that we come very near to God, each of us, and are led by his
    spirit, each of us, and taught of the spirit.
    
    For this reason, I wish to encourage you, just as you in everything
    obey Jesus as your Lord, that with your money you need not be any
    different. 
    
    For 20 years I paid 10% from my Brutto salary on a christian group
    which I belonged to. I thought this was what God meant by tithing.
    Because of my givenness to Jesus, he still rewarded me. But there is
    something better. Lay everything at Jesus' feet, tell him you wish to
    obey him, whatever that may mean. Let him be over your finances, then
    you can simply be a faithful steward of what belongs to him.
    
    Abraham gave 10% to Melchisedek BEFORE the law, and I am convinced it
    was by the spirit. This was not a law which he followed! 
    
    If you have debts, get out of them, they hinder your free giving. And
    do not even use the standard of 10%, let the love you have for others
    be aided by your financial help. Don't let anyone know about what you
    tithe, otherwise you loose your reward from God. Put it simply in an
    envelope and give it unanimously, that the receiver doesn't know from
    who it was given. At other times, give money, making friends with it,
    as Jesus also taught. When you sense the spirit speaking about giving
    money, let it be done, let your heart be filled with alms and love. You
    can also give to support those who preach the gospel or have a service
    whereby others are reached for Christ. 
    
    Giving mainly into a christian organization, and thinking this was what
    God wishes is very limited, and is not of any great help for you being
    responlible and learning to obey the spirit in this very important
    area. 
    
    Joyful giving, according to what your heart purposes, will in the long
    run make you a giver, a channel through which Jesus can pour out his
    blessing to others.
    
    Just a note concerning how Jesus saw the 10th:
    
    In his example of the Pharisee who was self righteous, he said, 'I
    thank you God that I am not like others, this sinner. I fast twice a
    week, pay a 10th... Jesus didn't ever tell his disciples that this law
    was required of them. He taught, 'Give, and it shall be given to
    you,...'.
    
    All of the religious Jewish people were giving their tithes to the
    Synagogues, thinking this is what God wanted. In reality, when the Lord
    himself was here, he didn't receive a farthing from them. Instead,
    those who were to crucify him were supported by those who paid these
    tithes. The Lord himself was supported by WOMEN, who with their
    substance gave! May they be examples to us!
    
    Don't let the pressure of MEMBERSHIP to a church FORCE you to pay a
    tenth, nor the fear of man, nor respect from man, otherwise you have no
    reward from your father. Your are called to a high calling, don't be a
    servant of men, but the Lord Christ. And then server the brethren with
    love. Having a regular amount always taken from your account, where you
    don't give it, can rob you of your joy, expecially if you do it in
    fulfillment of what others expect of you.
    
    
    Rodger Dusatko  

>    Abraham gave 10% to Melchisedek BEFORE the law, and I am convinced it
>    was by the spirit. This was not a law which he followed! 
    
    I don't believe it says he gave "10%"; he gave a freewill offering.  If
    I'm wrong please provide the book-chapter-verse that supports this.
    
    thanks,
    Mike

�    I don't believe it says he gave "10%"; he gave a freewill offering.  If
�    I'm wrong please provide the book-chapter-verse that supports this.
    

    And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine
    enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

							Genesis 14:20  


    But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of
    Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
    And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
    And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of
    whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
    And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in
    Abraham.
    For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
  
							Hebrews 7:6-10

I would presume you take 'tithe' to be a literal tenth.

								Andrew

    >I would presume you take 'tithe' to be a literal tenth.
    
    I wouldn't.  The Hebrews had 7 different tithes amounting to more than
    30% of their income.
    
    As I suspected, it doesn't say Abraham gave a tenth anywhere.
    
    Mike

    thanks...;-)
    

    Mike,
    
    Your right! He gave tithes of all. There is a reason, however, why I
    say it was a tenth.
    
    First, his grandson Jakob, was quoted as having said:
    
    And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be gods house: and
    of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.
    (Ge.28:22)
    
    also some scriptures in the law:
    
    Le.27:32        
    And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock,
    even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto
    the LORD.
    
    Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the
    children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your
    inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the Lord, 
    even a tenth part of the tithe. (Nu.18:26)
    
    The other important aspect is that the writer of Hebrews specifically
    refers to Abraham giving a tenth to Melchisedek:
    
    To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being  by
    interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of
    Salem, which is, King of peace; (Heb.7:2)
    
    and
    
    Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even  the patriarch
    Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.(Heb.7:4)
    
    As I said before, however, it is nowhere in the new testament a law for
    the church to give a tenth. For the jewish people under the covenant of
    the law it was. For Abraham, it wasn't, and obviously for his grandson
    Jakob it wasn't, but rather an oath resulting from a request on God to
    be with him and bring him back safely.
    
    Let us give, but not in the old way, but rather by the Holy Spirit, who
    may in certain times lead us to give a tenth of some great blessing
    which God bestows upon us, as he did on Abraham.
    
    Rodger Dusatko

    Okay, Abraham gave a tenth.  I had forgotten about the Hebrews
    reference.  There is still a precedence here that is being overlooked. 
    Abraham was pre-law (i.e., before tithes were implemented).  In other
    words, this was a freewill offering.
    
    There are other pre-law examples.  The first mention of giving in the 
    Bible is done where Abel made the first acceptable freewill offering to the 
    Lord.  The other is where Jacob promised a freewill offering to God 
    based on how he is blessed (he bribed God following his dream at Bethel).  
    All of the above were spontaneous, one-time events.
    
    Tithing was not practiced until the Law was given.  When the Law was given, 
    giving/tithing became *required*.  Under the Law, it was not only 
    mandatory, but complex.  
    
1. The Lord's Tithe - Leviticus 27:30; wholly to the Lord and used to support
   the priesthood and the temple after it was built (Numbers 18:24).  Malachi
   3:8 refers to this tithe.  10%
2. Festival Tithe - Deuteronomy 12:10-11, 14:22-26; This was a celebration
   fund used to help the Hebrews get to Jerusalem for the feasts and to
   purchase whatever their heart's desired.  You never hear this preached
   today!  10% - 20% running total.
3. Poor Tithe - Deuteronomy 14:28-29; used as a type of social security system
   and had to be given every 3 years.  3-5% - 23-25% running total.
4. Temple Tithe - Nehemiah 10:31-32
5. Sabbatical Tithe - Exodus 23:10-11; rest your fields on 7th year
6. Jubilee Tithe - every 50 years, property returns to original owner.
7. Gleaning (Profit-Sharing type) Tithe - Leviticus 19:9-10; leave food for
   poor in addition to the Poor Tithe.
    
On top of all this, they still wanted to give Father Abraham's way.  This all
easily exceeds 30% of your income.  Freewill giving didn't die out, but was
pushed to the side under the Law.
    
Giving/Tithing is conspicuously silent in the New Testament.  There are only 3
places that address it:  Matthew 23:23 (Luke 11:42 - same passage where Jesus
commends their diligence to the Law but rebukes their heart problem); I
Corinthians 16:1-4; II Corinthians 8 & 9, and the epistles commend Abraham's
freewill method.  There is only 1 passage in the NT that addresses
compenstation of pastors and elders: I Timothy 5:17-18.
    
No percentages are ever declared because a fair and equitable God would not
require us to follow an unfair and inequitable tithing system.  Consider 2
families:  one makes $5,000 per month, the other $500 per month; both tithe
10%, which one benefits?
    
Grace Offerings are the way I believe God wants us to give, according to His
Word.  Tithing in the NT is neither condemned or commended, but we  are called
to give according to what we have.  Grace Giving is counter-culture in today's
church, but tithing as we know it is unscriptural.

The NT mode of giving is addressed in I Corinthians 16:1-4.
    
1. Giving should be practiced.  It isn't optional and nobody is excluded
   (16:1-2).
2. Practice planned and predetermined giving.  It should be weekly and you
   need to apply the principle of first fruits.  (16:2)
3. Giving should be proportionate to, not a percentage of your income.  Also
   see Acts 11:29 and Deuteronomy 16:17.
4.  a.) Giving should be pressureless.  Paul didn't take up collections nor
        use heavy-handed salesmanship.
    b.) Give as the Spirit leads; from the heart.  See also II Corinthians
        9:7 and 10:13-14.
5. Give with precautions or checks & balances in place (16:3-4).  For example,
   in our church, the person who fills out the checks is not allowed to sign
   them.  There are always at least 2 people involved in designating the
   Lord's funds.

    I can only agree that the lawful giving of a tithe is not wished by
    Jesus. Even the words, 'It isn't optional and nobody is excluded' 
    seems too hard when talking about giving. Giving is something which
    touches all parts of our life, as an aspect of love. 
    
    I don't agree that we should 'practice planned and predetermined
    giving'. 'It should be weekly' is also something I wouldn't say is
    scriptural. In the situation of the corinthian church, where they were
    told by Paul to gather on the first day of the week, this was because
    of a promise they had made for the church in Jerusalem, and he was
    giving some practical instruction how they might fulfill this promise. 
    
    'Giving should be proportionate to, not a percentage of your income' is
    saying the same thing in 2 ways. Maybe you can clarify what you mean.
    But still, giving needs to be directly related to love, to the leading
    of God's Spirit of love in us. There is no better reason for giving
    than having God's compassion motivating us. I don't think it is
    important to God that we even think too much about whether we have
    fulfilled 'our tenth'.
    
    Concerning precautions, it is best that nobody knows what you give, or
    just the one who receives it. Wanting a receipt in order to write it
    off taxes is not my idea of the type of giving Jesus is talking about,
    where your reward is to be from your heavenly father, and not even your
    left hand is to know what your right hand has done. There is a special
    reward for secret giving.
    
    Rodger Dusatko