Conference yukon::christian_v7

Hi Thomas,

Isaiah 14:12-21 describes the fall of the devil, lucifer.  It is an 
interesting passage in ots description of what he thought, in the steps to 
his fall, as he tried to usurp the place of God.

:13-14	You said in your heart:
	*I* will ascend to heaven
	*I* will raise my throne above the stars of God (angels)
	*I* will sit enthroned on the ... utmost heights of the sacred mountain
	*I* will ascend above the tops of the clouds
- and the ultimate one:
	*I* will make myself like the Most High.

A related passage in Ezekiel 28 summarisses these steps in 28:15 with the 
phrase "wickedness was found in you".

This is refered to and warned about in 1 Timothy 3:6, abouts the
qualifications for church leadership as an overseer (usually called an
elder or bishop): 

	"He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited
	 and fall under the same judgement as the devil."

This conceit - which is just another name for pride - is the result of
taking to oneself (in the heart) the honour due to the position, instead of
recognising and acknowledging that it is due to the LORD and belings to
Him.  That leads to catastrophe, because such a one has effectively set
himself up as God in his own heart (generally without realising it), and
has taken possession of God's throne there. 


1 John 2:15-16 says:
	"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any
	 man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that
	 is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and 
	 the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."
	     ^^^^^  

These three aspects of temptation can be seen in the events of the fall in
Genesis 3 (pride comes in: "desirable for gaining wisdom" - :6)
and also in the devil's temptation of our LORD in the wilderness (Matthew 
3:6)

That's just my intro on this one.  Thanks Thomas!

						God bless
								Andrew

See note 826.34 related to Andrew's reply.

"These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto Him:
 A proud look; a lying tongue; and hands that shed innocent blood; An heart
 that deviseth wicked imaginations; feet that be swift in running to mischief;
 A false witness that speaketh lies; and he that soweth discord among
 brethren." (Pr 6:16-19, KJV)

"Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the Lord: though hand
 join in hand, he shall not be unpunished." (Pr 16:5, KJV)

"For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself
 shall be exalted." (Lu 14:11, KJV)

"If any man...consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus
 Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud,
 knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof
 cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of
 corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness:
 from such withdraw thyself." (1Ti 6:3-5, KJV)

"...for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble." (1Pe 5:5b,
 KJV)

I used to think I wasn't too prideful.

The closer I get to God, the more I understand the deep intractable
self-centeredness that I must allow Christ to root out of me.

Getting rid of it is an awfully tough thing.  We can't do it ourselves.  We
need the grace and strength of the Lord to perform the spiritual surgery.

Paul

    There is nothing wrong with pride. As long as it is He who has it. :-)

    RE: .4
    
    And what might God be proud of, Glen, and how might He express it?

    hi
    
      as i get closer to God and examine my heart, it scares the hell out
    of me to see the roots of some of my most"innocent" motives i.e. i find
    myself sometimes reaching out to others, being friendly and "loving"
    only to examine and find the root motive is pride. i want to be
    respected is just that "i". what a sign of selfish pride. the bible
    says "love thy enemies" now when someone insults me or something like
    that, i can get bitter an avoid that person.  what a twisted realm of
    things that dwell in me. by the grace of God , the conviction of the
    holy spirit, i am aware. " Spare me o Lord, from this ol' nature that
    can appear, crucify it!"
                            love, thomas

| <<< Note 846.5 by ROCK::PARKER >>>

| And what might God be proud of, Glen, 

	Everytime someone does something for another and gives credit to Him,
is one example I can think of. 

| and how might He express it?

	Don't know if He would or not. I'm not God.


Glen

    Good ol' Thomas,
    
    always one with the 'bright cheery topics' ;')
    
    The topic of pride brings so many things to mind. It's interesting
    that, contrary to popular opinion, pride is the 'original sin', not
    'sex'. {oh dear, I wonder how many little old ladies I've just made
    faint ;')
    
    Afterall, satan appealed to Eve's pride, when he said to her 'you will
    be like God' (Gen,3:5)
    
    On a more personal note...
    
    I find it's so easy, myself, to fall into pride. Especially when I
    adopt a 'humble' attitude. it can sneak up, and an attitude of 'I'm so
    proud that I'm humble', while sounding contradictory, is so easy to do.
    
    How do I combat this? Well, recently, not at all :'\ I must admit, I
    haven't been all that 'humble' to be proud of being humble ;'}
    
    Thanks Thomas (I think), for helping me examine a part of me that I
    really didn't want to look at :'}
    
    Harry

From "St. Augustine's Prayer Book", a book of devotions for members of the
Anglican/Episcopal Church.

PRIDE is putting self in the place of God as the center and objective of
  our life, or of some department thereof.  It is the refusal to recognize
  our status as creatures, dependent on God for our existence, and placed
  by him in a specific relationship to the rest of his creation.
  
 Irreverence.  Deliberate neglect of the worship of God every Sunday in
  his Church, or being content with a perfunctory participation in it. 
  Disregard of other Holy Days or of additional opportunities for giving
  God honor.  Failure to thank God or to express our gratitude adequately.
  
  Disrespect for God or holy things by deliberately treating them, in
  thought, word, or deed, in a profane, contemptuous or over-familiar
  manner.  Use of holy things for personal advantage, or the attempt to
  bribe or placate God by religious practices or promises.
  
 Sentimentality.  Being satisfied with pious feelings and beautiful
  ceremonies without striving to obey God's will.
  
 Presumption.  Dependence on self rather than on God, with the consequent
  neglect of the means of grace -- sacraments and prayer.  Dispensation
  of ourselves from ordinary duties on the grounds that we are superior
  persons.  Satisfaction or complacency over our spiritual acheivements. 
  Refusal to avoid, when possible, immediate occasions of temptation. 
  Preference for our own ideas, customs, schemes, or techniques.  Foolish
  optimism.
  
  Failure to recognize our job as a divine vocation, or to offer our work
  to God.  Unwillingness to surrender to and abide in Christ, to let him
  act in and through us.  Failure to offer to God regularly in intercession
  the persons or causes that have, or should enlist our interest and support.
  
 Distrust.  Refusal to recognize God's wisdom, providence, and love.  Worry,
  anxiety, misgivings, scrupulosity, or perfectionism.  Attempts to discern
  or control the future by spiritualism, astrology, fortune-telling or the
  like.  Magic or superstition.
  
  Over-sensitiveness.  Expectation that others will dislike, reject, or
  mistreat us; over-readiness so to interpret their attitude, or quickness
  to take offense.  Unfounded suspicions.
  
  Timidity in accepting responsibility, or cowardice in facing difficulty
  or suffering.  Surrender to feelings of depression, gloom, pessimism,
  discouragement, self-pity, or fear of death, instead of fighting to be
  brave, cheerful, and hopeful.
  
 Disobedience.  Rejection of God's known will in favor of our own interests
  or pleasures.  Disobedience of the legitimate (and therefore divinely
  ordained) laws, regulations, or authority of the Church, state, husband,
  parents, teachers, etc.; or slow and reluctant obedience.  Failure when
  in authority to fulfil responsibilities or to consider the best interests
  of those under us.
  
  Refusal to learn God's nature or will as revealed in Scripture, expounded
  in instructions or expert advice, or discernible through prayer, meditation,
  or the reading of religious books.  Absorption in our own affairs, leaving
  little time, energy, or interest for the things of God.
  
  Violation of confidence.  Breaking of legitimate promises or contracts.
  Irresponsibility.  Treachery.  Unnecessary disappointment of another,
  or the causing of shame or anxiety to those who love us.
  
 Impenitence.  Refusal to search out and face up to our sins, or to confess
  and admit them before God.  Disregard of our sins or pretense that we
  are better than we are.  Self-justification or discounting our sins as
  insignificant, natural, or inevitable.  Self-righteous comparison of
  ourselves with others.
  
  Refusal to accept just punishment or to make due reparation when possible.
  Deceit or lying to escape the consequences of our sins, or allowing
  another to suffer the blame for our faults.  Overcompensation or attempts
  at self-reform or self-vengeance, to avoid surrender to God in humble
  penitence.
  
  Shame (hurt pride), sorrow for ourselves because our sins make us less
  respectable than we like to think we are, or because we fear punishment
  or injury to our reputation, rather than sorrow for what sin is in the
  eyes of God.  Refusal to admit we were in the wrong or to apologize. 
  Refusal to accept forgiveness from God or others.  Doubt that God can
  forgive our sins, or failure to use the means of getting assurance of
  his forgiveness when we need it.  Unwillingness to forgive ourselves.
  
 Vanity.  Crediting to ourselves rather than to God our talents, abilities,
  insights, accomplishments, good works.  Refusal to admit indebtedness to
  others, or adequately to express gratitude for their help.  Hypocrisy.
  Pretense to virtues we do not possess.  False humility.  Harsh judgments
  on others for faults we excuse in ourselves.
  
  Boasting, exaggeration, drawing attention to ourselves by talking too
  much, by claiming ability, by eccentric or ostentation behaviour. 
  Undue concern over, or expenditure of time, money, or energy on looks,
  dress, surroundings, etc., in order to impress others; or deliberate
  slovenliness for the same purpose.  Seeking, desiring, or relishing
  flattery or compliments.
  
 Arrogance.  Insisting that others conform to our wishes, recognize our
  leadership, accept  our own estimate of our worth.  Being overbearing,
  argumentative, opinionated, obstinate.
  
 Snobbery.  Pride over race, family, position, personality, education,
  skill, achievements, or possesions.

    RE: .7
    
    I find curious your citing an example of something God might be proud
    of, while claiming no clue as to how He might express it.
    
    On what basis do you claim to know enough about God to say at least one
    thing He's proud of, but on the other hand not knowing enough about Him
    to say how He might express it?  In other words, how did God let you
    know that He might be proud "everytime someone does something for
    another and gives credit to Him?"
    
    How would you define pride, Glen?

| <<< Note 846.10 by ROCK::PARKER >>>


| I find curious your citing an example of something God might be proud
| of, while claiming no clue as to how He might express it.

	Pride for someone who is perfect can not be bad. How one would express
the perfection, I don't know. You see, I, like you, and everyone else, are far
from perfect. 

Glen

    RE: .11
    
    Glen, you continue to twist.  We were talking about pride, not
    perfection.  But, let's keep going:
    
    Would someone who is perfect have pride?  How would you define pride? 
    If you believe God has pride, then how do you know that?

| <<< Note 846.12 by ROCK::PARKER >>>

| Glen, you continue to twist.  

	Actually, no, I am not.

| We were talking about pride, not perfection.  

	As am I.

| Would someone who is perfect have pride?  

	Yes, I believe God can.

| How would you define pride?

	How I might define pride, and how God might, could be two different
things. I can not define how God would define pride.

	Now from a non-perfect human form, pride CAN be bad. To be proud of
someone else for their accomplishments is not bad. To be prideful of your own
accomplishments, is.

| If you believe God has pride, then how do you know that?

	Cuz His love shines through. You don't think some of those are beams of 
pride due to our accomplishments of obeying Him, even though He gave us free 
will?


Glen

    RE: .13
    
    Despite your protestations, you are in fact twisting.  Your wont to
    criticize other views while refusing to give direct answers yourself
    should be a matter of concern.
    
    If you cannot say how God would define pride, then how can you say that
    pride is wrong even in imperfect people?  How can you say that God can
    have pride when you do not know what pride is?
    
    You need not answer the above questions.  My sense is that there are
    much deeper issues with which you need to grapple.
    
    Carry on, Glen, but please try to see the difficultly I and others
    have when you offer criticism/comment without being willing/able to
    articulate the (basis for) standards by which you make judgments.

| <<< Note 846.14 by ROCK::PARKER >>>

| Despite your protestations, you are in fact twisting. Your want to criticize 
| other views 

	Criticize or present my beliefs up along theirs? I think this might be
where the problem is. 

| while refusing to give direct answers yourself should be a matter of concern.

	If I were God, I could give you the answers. But I am not God. 

| If you cannot say how God would define pride, then how can you say that pride 
| is wrong even in imperfect people?  

	Remember, I did not say all pride is bad. Pride in oneself, is. My
belief is with perfect pride, as in Christ's case, doesn't reflect on His own
pride, but in others. I thought I had explained that when I talked about Him
beaming because even with the free will He gave us, we are trying to follow Him
in spite of the free will. 

| How can you say that God can have pride when you do not know what pride is?

	I did give an example, and have done so, again.

| You need not answer the above questions.  

	Too late, already did. :-)

| My sense is that there are much deeper issues with which you need to grapple.

	How nice of you to say that. Like with anyone, there are always things
to grapple. I let Christ take care of it.

| Carry on, Glen, but please try to see the difficultly I and others have when 
| you offer criticism/comment without being willing/able to articulate the 
| (basis for) standards by which you make judgments.

	Please try to see the difficulty that I, and others in here have
noticed about the messenger, without ever listening to the message. But maybe
that is something many of you have to grapple with.

	What you said above (your last paragraph) is false, as I did describe
it.


Glen

    RE: .15
    
    You continue to twist.  So be it.
    
    /Wayne

| <<< Note 846.16 by ROCK::PARKER >>>

| You continue to twist.  So be it.

	Wayne, I do see you writing the above, but I do not see you proving it.
Do me a favor? If you can prove it, then say it. 


Glen

    RE: .17
    
    Sure.  I would offer notes 846.4, .5, .7, and .10-.17 as evidence that
    you've twisted things.
    
    If no one else sees evidence of your twisting in those notes, then let
    me be the first to say I'm wrong.
    
    Do me a favor.  Please show that you have not twisted things.
    
    /Wayne

   RE: .15

>| My sense is that there are much deeper issues with which you need to grapple.

|	How nice of you to say that. Like with anyone, there are always things
| to grapple. I let Christ take care of it.

** I didn't say that to be nice, but neither did I mean to be condemnatory.  I
   have found that often when people ask questions, twist answers and misdirect
   questions and answers in return, as you seem to do in this conference, they
   are building a philosophical framework for rationalizing attitudes and
   actions in other areas not related to the topic at hand.

   As you've pointed out, I'm not yet perfect, so my sense that you have
   deeper issues with which to grapple may be wrong.  I just detected a pattern
   of which I wanted to make you aware.  If my feedback is not constructive or
   otherwise misses the mark, then by all means ignore it.

   How does "Christ take care of it" in terms of our grappling with sin?  My
   experience is that the Holy Spirit makes me uncomfortable with sinning, and
   I cannot continue thinking or doing things that are wrong in God's eyes,
   even if I fail to immediately see what's right and wrong in a given
   situation.

>| Carry on, Glen, but please try to see the difficultly I and others have when 
>| you offer criticism/comment without being willing/able to articulate the 
>| (basis for) standards by which you make judgments.

|	Please try to see the difficulty that I, and others in here have
| noticed about the messenger, without ever listening to the message. But maybe
| that is something many of you have to grapple with.

** I would appreciate your apprising me of difficulties you've noticed about
   me, in particular.  More would be gained by my shutting up than by
   speaking truth that cannot be seen/heard because my life fails to manifest
   the fruit of the Spirit I claim indwells me.

   Yes, Glen, I think the problem of looking to find fault in others rather
   than looking to see Jesus is a common one, certainly one with which I
   struggle.  I particularly have trouble looking to see Jesus in anyone
   who denies Him as God in the flesh and who refuses to accept the Bible as
   God's written Word.  Perhaps that is a bias, but, on the other hand, if
   Jesus is the Christ of God and the Bible really is God's Word, then that
   bias is proper.

|	What you said above (your last paragraph) is false, as I did describe
| it.

** Did I miss something?  Or is your standard that we should examine the
   message rather than the messenger?  If that is your standard, from whence
   did it come, i.e., how do you know it's right and proper?

   Or, as I'm relatively new to this conference, perhaps you've described your
   beliefs and standards elsewhere that I've not seen.  My own beliefs and
   standards are accurately described in notes 2.0&.1.

   /Wayne

| <<< Note 846.18 by ROCK::PARKER >>>

| If no one else sees evidence of your twisting in those notes, then let me be 
| the first to say I'm wrong.

	Wayne, try to understand something. Whether or not anyone agrees, or
disagrees, doesn't matter. The ONLY One who matters in all this is Him. His
view, His Opinion, His everything.

| Do me a favor.  Please show that you have not twisted things.

	That's quite easy, Wayne. In order for me to be twisting things, I
would have to not believe in what I am saying. I *DO* believe in what I am
saying. You view it differently. You're entitled to your views, as I am mine.
Like with anything, people will interpret things differently. 


Glen

| <<< Note 846.19 by ROCK::PARKER >>>

| -< I wish to say no more because I don't know Glen personally >-

	Ya only work 2 floors above me.... ;-)

| I have found that often when people ask questions, twist answers and misdirect
| questions and answers in return, as you seem to do in this conference, they
| are building a philosophical framework for rationalizing attitudes and actions
| in other areas not related to the topic at hand.

	What you, myself, and everyone else needs to do is to take people on an
individual basis. Not lump everyone into one neat little package that makes
life easier to deal with. When you do that, you will be right, sometimes, wrong
others. When you're wrong, and you state it as truth, you have done quite the
wrong, whether that wrong be a build-up, or wrongly accusing someone of doing
something. 

| As you've pointed out, I'm not yet perfect, so my sense that you have deeper 
| issues with which to grapple may be wrong.  

	While there will always be issues to deal with in life, I got the
impression that when you stated I had deeper issues to deal with, you had
insight to what they were. What *I* should have done was ask. For that, I
apologize. So.... are there specific issues that you think I am dealing with?

| How does "Christ take care of it" in terms of our grappling with sin?  My
| experience is that the Holy Spirit makes me uncomfortable with sinning, and
| I cannot continue thinking or doing things that are wrong in God's eyes, even 
| if I fail to immediately see what's right and wrong in a given situation.

	The above makes perfect sense. It is exactly how I view it. He guides.
It's up to me to follow. Sometimes it may take longer for a message to get into
this skull of mine, but He seems to be doing a good job. :-)

| ** I would appreciate your apprising me of difficulties you've noticed about
| me, in particular.  

	Already done that above. :-)

| More would be gained by my shutting up than by speaking truth that cannot be 
| seen/heard because my life fails to manifest the fruit of the Spirit I claim 
| indwells me.

	Well.... quite possibly what you are envisioning as truth, might not be
Truth. And it might be Him that is not allowing you to state what it is you
want to state, how you want to state it, because He views it as being wrong.
You feel you must be silent, because what you view as truth cannot be seen or
heard. Maybe you should examine the truth part.

| I particularly have trouble looking to see Jesus in anyone who denies Him as 
| God in the flesh and who refuses to accept the Bible as God's written Word.  

	On � of what you wrote, I can comment without getting set hidden. :-)
I'm not sure if you were referring to me or not, but I will make it clear that
I do not deny Him as God in the flesh.

| ** Did I miss something?  

	You haven't been here too long.... :-)

| Or is your standard that we should examine the message rather than the 
| messenger?  

	Yes, this is what should be done.

| If that is your standard, from whence did it come, i.e., how do you know it's 
| right and proper?

	Do you believe that God could use anyone to get a specific message out
to someone? Whether that person be Holy, nonbeliever, or Evil? I do. Evil could 
be used to show you many aspects. Deception, theivery, any wrong doing. I 
believe He can also use the Evil person to get His perfect message out. Same
goes for the nonbeliever, along with the believer/Holy. I believe He can use
each of these to get the same message out to anyone on any given subject. The
key is whether or not *we* listen to the message. 

Glen

Glen, you seem desperately to want to be perceived by others as you perceive
yourself.  Unfortunately, life doesn't work this way, nor should it.

"Even a child is known by his actions, by whether his conduct is pure and
right"
							Prov 20:11

Paul

   RE: .20

>| If no one else sees evidence of your twisting in those notes, then let me be 
>| the first to say I'm wrong.

|	Wayne, try to understand something. Whether or not anyone agrees, or
| disagrees, doesn't matter. The ONLY One who matters in all this is Him. His
| view, His Opinion, His everything.

** Glen, I understand that ONLY GOD'S PERSPECTIVE MATTERS.  All I'm saying is
   that the Holy Spirit indwells believers, and He commends truth to our
   hearts.  If other believers feel what I've said to be wrong according to
   Scripture, then I'll accept correction as from God.

>| Do me a favor.  Please show that you have not twisted things.

|	That's quite easy, Wayne. In order for me to be twisting things, I
| would have to not believe in what I am saying. I *DO* believe in what I am
| saying. You view it differently. You're entitled to your views, as I am mine.
| Like with anything, people will interpret things differently.

** So, are you saying that the criterion for "twisting" is whether or not we
   sincerely believe in what we say and do?  In other words, are you suggesting
   that if we do or say something sincerely believing it to be right/true, then
   it's okay because God honors the sincere belief without regard for what's
   actually done and said?

   RE: .21

>| -< I wish to say no more because I don't know Glen personally >-

|	Ya only work 2 floors above me.... ;-)

** Okay, I'll look you up as time permits.

|	What you, myself, and everyone else needs to do is to take people on an
| individual basis. Not lump everyone into one neat little package that makes
| life easier to deal with. When you do that, you will be right, sometimes,
| wrong others. When you're wrong, and you state it as truth, you have done
| quite the wrong, whether that wrong be a build-up, or wrongly accusing someone
| of doing something.

** I wasn't lumping people into one neat package.  But I do infer things from
   what people say when the words and style match patterns I've seen before.
   As you say, though, conclusions thus drawn are not always right.  My
   experience has been that, after someone has had ample opportunity to speak
   and clarify what has been said or after correlating what's said in different
   settings, testing what proceeds from the mouth versus the Word of God can,
   in fact, provide insight into a person's heart.

|	While there will always be issues to deal with in life, I got the
| impression that when you stated I had deeper issues to deal with, you had
| insight to what they were. What *I* should have done was ask. For that, I
| apologize. So.... are there specific issues that you think I am dealing with?

** I have no first-hand knowledge of issues in your life, Glen.  Even if I did,
   stating them in a public forum would not be proper.  Again, what I did was
   let you know that your words and style indicated a struggle with deeper
   issues.

>| How does "Christ take care of it" in terms of our grappling with sin?  My
>| experience is that the Holy Spirit makes me uncomfortable with sinning, and
>| I cannot continue thinking or doing things that are wrong in God's eyes, even
>| if I fail to immediately see what's right and wrong in a given situation.

|	The above makes perfect sense. It is exactly how I view it. He guides.
| It's up to me to follow. Sometimes it may take longer for a message to get
| into this skull of mine, but He seems to be doing a good job. :-)

** I guess this is part of what I find troublesome, i.e., how you can affirm
   the work of the Holy Spirit in your life apart from the written Word of
   God.  How do you know what you're seeing/hearing/feeling is of God?

>| More would be gained by my shutting up than by speaking truth that cannot be 
>| seen/heard because my life fails to manifest the fruit of the Spirit I claim 
>| indwells me.

|	Well.... quite possibly what you are envisioning as truth, might not be
| Truth. And it might be Him that is not allowing you to state what it is you
| want to state, how you want to state it, because He views it as being wrong.
| You feel you must be silent, because what you view as truth cannot be seen or
| heard. Maybe you should examine the truth part.

** I regularly examine "the truth part."  Of course, the touchstone I use is
   the Bible.  And I look to the Holy Spirit to point out my blindspots through
   admonition from fellow believers.  There is value in feedback from any
   source, but feedback heeded to change faith and conduct MUST BE CONSISTENT
   WITH GOD'S WORD.  How do you validate truth?

>| I particularly have trouble looking to see Jesus in anyone who denies Him as 
>| God in the flesh and who refuses to accept the Bible as God's written Word.  

|	On � of what you wrote, I can comment without getting set hidden. :-)
| I'm not sure if you were referring to me or not, but I will make it clear that
| I do not deny Him as God in the flesh.

** I said "anyone" which includes you if the shoe fits.  I don't know exactly
   what your regard for Scripture is--maybe that's something to talk about when
   we meet--but I have come to understand that you don't view the Bible as the
   Word of God, or at least as Truth which can be understood by imperfect
   humans.  And I've told you that such disregard of Scripture from one who
   professes a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is very troubling,
   _usually_ indicating a deeper problem.

>| Or is your standard that we should examine the message rather than the 
>| messenger?  

|	Yes, this is what should be done.

** Fine.  But the message must NEVER contradict Scripture.  Otherwise, the
   message is NOT from God.

>| If that is your standard, from whence did it come, i.e., how do you know it's
>| right and proper?

|	Do you believe that God could use anyone to get a specific message out
| to someone? Whether that person be Holy, nonbeliever, or Evil? I do. Evil
| could be used to show you many aspects. Deception, theivery, any wrong doing.
| I believe He can also use the Evil person to get His perfect message out. Same
| goes for the nonbeliever, along with the believer/Holy. I believe He can use
| each of these to get the same message out to anyone on any given subject. The
| key is whether or not *we* listen to the message.

** I think I've established elsewhere, e.g., notes 840.30,32&35, that God uses
   many ways to speak to us.  My concern derives from those who reject the
   primary and most reliable source of Truth!  Not to mention those who seek to
   actively discredit the Word of God in the eyes of others!

   Let me be clear, Glen.  If you were seeking to know God FIRST through His
   written Word as revealed to your heart by the Holy Spirit, then I would be
   more comfortable affirming the premise that God speaks even through evil.
   But, as long as you hold that the final arbiter of Truth is NOT the Bible,
   then I will continue to question what you say.

Until we've met face-to-face, saying more would not be prudent.  On the surface,
my belief that the touchstone for Truth is the written Word of God and your
belief that God cannot be reliably known through the Bible and the Spirit alone
seem irreconcilable.

/Wayne

P.S. Mods, if you want to move the dialog between Glen and myself elsewhere,
then that would be fine with me.  My apologies to Thomas for my part in
digressing from the topic of pride.  On the other hand, perhaps Glen and I have
been an object lesson! :-)

    
    Well, I looked up the definition of pride and it is as follows:
    
    1. proper and justified self-respect
    2. pleasure or satisfaction taken in work, achievements or possessions
    3. A cause or source of pride
    4. conceit, arrogance
    
    Now, I see no reason that God cannot be prideful (or us for that
    matter) with respect to definitions 1 and 2.  An example of God having
    healthy pride is in evident in the creation story, when God declared
    that His creation was good.  He was obviously pleased with the results.
    
    Since meaning 4 is declared in the scriptures as sinful, that is
    against the nature of God and thus that type of pride, God cannot
    possess.
    
    

| <<< Note 846.22 by PAULKM::WEISS "For I am determined to know nothing, except..." >>>

| Glen, you seem desperately to want to be perceived by others as you perceive
| yourself.  Unfortunately, life doesn't work this way, nor should it.

	People should view others in a true light, not one they have imagined.



Glen

| <<< Note 846.23 by ROCK::PARKER >>>


| ** So, are you saying that the criterion for "twisting" is whether or not we
| sincerely believe in what we say and do?  In other words, are you suggesting
| that if we do or say something sincerely believing it to be right/true, then
| it's okay because God honors the sincere belief without regard for what's
| actually done and said?

	A person can be right/wrong, and not be twisting. What I am saying is if
someone truly believes something to be true, how can they be twisting? That is
an action. 

| ** Okay, I'll look you up as time permits.

	Cool....hlo2-1/c12

| ** I wasn't lumping people into one neat package.  But I do infer things from
| what people say when the words and style match patterns I've seen before.

	Errr.... you don't call that lumping? 

| ** I guess this is part of what I find troublesome, i.e., how you can affirm
| the work of the Holy Spirit in your life apart from the written Word of God.  
| How do you know what you're seeing/hearing/feeling is of God?

	We can discuss this one when we meet. It would get set hidden in this
file. You aren't allowed to talk about things like that here. :-)

| ** I regularly examine "the truth part."  Of course, the touchstone I use is
| the Bible.  

	I use the Bible on many an occasion myself.

| then I will continue to question what you say.

	Wayne, I don't mind someone QUESTIONING what I say. I just don't like
someone telling me what I am saying. Can you see the difference? You, for the
most part, ask questions. I like that.



Glen

> People should view others in a true light, not one they have imagined.

I agree, and would only add that people - and I certainly am speaking to
myself as well as to you, Glen - should also view THEMSELVES in the light of
The One True Light of the World, and not as they have imagined.

Paul

<<< Note 846.27 by PAULKM::WEISS "For I am determined to know nothing, except..." >>>

| I agree, and would only add that people - and I certainly am speaking to
| myself as well as to you, Glen - should also view THEMSELVES in the light of
| The One True Light of the World, and not as they have imagined.

	Paul, please go into the last part of that. Only He can define the true
light, not a human.


Glen

 arrrgh.

    Glen,
    
        Why are you constantly repeating yourself?
    
    Glen,
    
    Why are you constantly repeating yourself?
    
    Glen, 
    
    Why are you constantly repeating yourself?
    
    Glen,
    
        Why are you constantly repeating yourself?
    

Nancy, 

Because people keep asking the same questions!

Nancy, 

Because people keep asking the same questions!

Nancy, 

Because people keep asking the same questions!

Nancy, 

Because people keep asking the same questions!

Nancy, 

Because people keep asking the same questions!

Nancy, 

Because people keep asking the same questions!

Nancy, 

Because people keep asking the same questions!

    RE: .24
    
    Hi, Susan (I hope that's you).
    
    Good stuff!  I, too, believe God has pride.  And I was not disagreeing
    with Glen Silva on that point.  What I was after was how God might
    demonstrate/express His pride, in particular, what the Bible might say
    about us and God, who does what, etc.
    
    Your example in creation was one of the first I had in mind.  Another
    of surpassing import is found as part of the baptism discussion in note
    845: "And Jesus, when He was baptized, went up straightway out of the
    water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto Him, and He saw the Spirit
    of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon Him: And lo a voice
    from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
    (Matthew 3:16&17, KJV)
    
    My point would be that we should pay close attention to that which
    pleases God, that in which He takes pride, if you will.
    
    I really wanted to point the discussion of pride toward examining
    Scripture in order to establish the basis for proper regard of
    ourselves and our Creator.
    
    Thanks for your input.  FWIW, in my opinion, your insight is right on!
    
    /Wayne

    good ol' harry
           has my cheery topic step on your pride?  ;-) ;-)
    

    * Harry rotfl!