Conference yukon::christian_v7

  You've come upon one of my pet peeves.  I find myself getting angry
 about this at times.  One day last week I was in a mall and happened
 upon a couple of men talking and I gathered they hand'nt seen each other
 in a while..as they were parting, one man said "well, happy holidays" and
 the other said "no, Merry Christmas!" 

 I heard a commercial on the radio touting a particular mall that had all
 kinds of neat stuff for my "holiday shopping" convenience..and they crowed
 that by "next holiday" they'll have an addition to the mall completed and
 all sorts of wonderful stuff.  I felt like calling them and saying "By next
 holiday, did you mean "presidents day" or "Martin Luther King Day"..it
 seems as if they fumble all over themselves to not say "Christmas"..

 Now, I am not so naive as to say that everybody in the country is
 a Christian.  I realize that.  But why is it we got along fine in this
 country for hundreds of years saying "Christmas", and now all of a sudden
 they can't utter that word?



 Jim

Not very valdiffing of you folks.  Remember Chanuka, Kwanza, the solstice,
and New Years for those who don't celebrate Christmas.

Maybe "Happy Holidays" is more sincere than "Merry Christmas" to or for
someone who is not celebrating Christ's Mass.

/john 

    Yes,
    
    indeed John. It is a 'de-Christianising' of the holiday period. Now,
    perhaps some (many) see this as a "bad" thing, especially considering
    the [not wanting to open a can of worms here, but...] 'supposedly'
    Christian Origins of the US. Wherther the country was founded as a
    Christian country, the fact remains that it is not any more.
    
    In a multi-cultural society, I've noticed that those of us who are of a
    primarily WASP background, tend to get all 'het-up' when we perceive
    some 'slight' against us (e.g. 'happy holiday' vs 'merry Christmas'),
    and yet how many of us *unthinkingly* will send(have sent) "Christmas"
    cards to those not of a christian (let alone Christian) background?
    e.g. our friends of the Jewish faith, or those of Islam, or those of
    Hindu (yes, Sunil, I know that's not the correct term).
    
    How many times have we offended our friends by projecting on them our
    own cultural and religious background?
    
    Perhaps. Just perhaps... "Happy Holiday" while sounding insipid and
    bland, perhaps it is a 'better' greeting. At least we will offend fewer
    people not of our faith.
    
    And yet... I can hear "Behold I lay in Zion a Stone of Stumbling, and a
    Rock of Offense". (Rom 9:33). If we do not offend our friends by
    bringing to their attention the reason why we remember this time of
    year, if we do not grab their attention by reminding them of the
    promised Messiah's arrival some 2000 years ago, if we do not do this,
    are we guilty then of trying to 'soft-sell' the Gospel of Jesus the
    Christ?
    
    Perhaps our Jewish friends will agree that he with 'that name' existed,
    and was a "good Jew". And our Isalmic friends will agree that Jesus was
    a prophet. Perhaps our friends from the Indus River valley will agree
    that Jesus was a good teacher. 
    
    But is this enough?
    
    Should we, as followers of 'The Way', as followers of the Messiah, as
    followers of this man Jesus, should we boldly declare at all times that
    this is 'Christ's Mass'? Or should we acquiece to the world, agreeing
    that for the large majority the time of respite from work has lost its'
    'religious' meaning?
    
    For some, in some situations, they will be called upon by The Lord God
    to stand firm and declare the greeting "Merry Christmas", and bear the
    consequences of this. Others will be called upon to allow the apostacy
    of this time to continue on its' way, and quietly affirm in their
    hearts "Merry Christmas" when those around affirm 'happy holiday' (a
    "Holy Day"??!! - perhaps 'happy vacation'???).
    
    Perhaps, on that day, when we all stand before The Lord God and He asks
    us His question 'why should I let you live in My Kingdom?', perhaps then
    the whole question of 'Merry Christmas' vs 'Happy Holdiay' will achieve
    its' true perspective.
    
    H

People of minority religions see Christmas differently
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

(c) Copyright 1995 Nando.net

Riverside Press-Enterprise

RIVERSIDE, Calif. -- He had been practicing the Baha'i Faith for years and
was raising four children under its teachings, but every December, Robert
Hart Sr. celebrated Christmas.

The pressures were too great, he said.

"We lived in a neighborhood in suburban Maryland with lots of children, lots
of families, and I didn't want my children to feel left out," said the
79-year-old Riverside resident.

Hart isn't the only non-Christian who has felt that way. Every year, as
millions of Christian Americans brave the holiday hordes at shopping malls,
decorate their homes with lights and trees and celebrate the birth of their
savior, non-Christians, more than any other time of the year, feel like
outcasts.

"The whole month of December is one of the most painful months of the year
for us," said Hassan Abukar, a Muslim who is the director of the Mosque of
Riverside. "When you are a member of a minority faith, it is very difficult
to escape the pressures of celebrating Christmas. "I look forward to Jan.
1."

It can, those in the minority say, be an awkward time. Jewish children
pester their parents for a Christmas tree, rationalizing that they can call
it a "Hannukah bush." Muslim children ask their parents if they can have
their picture taken with Santa at the mall. Children of atheists wonder why
they don't celebrate the same holiday their schoolmates are celebrating.

It also can be a trying time. Especially when Linus espouses the true
meaning of Christmas on "A Charlie Brown Christmas." When nearly every
sitcom on television features a Christmas special. When one of the hottest
selling videos is "The Santa Clause."

Many, like Abukar, bide their time, waiting patiently for December to end.
"At no other time of the year are you made to feel like such an outsider,"
said Rabbi Hillel Cohn of Congregation Emanu El in San Bernardino, who says
that many Jews suffer from a "state of depression after Thanksgiving."

Even some Christians have become dismayed at the way the holy day is being
celebrated in America.

"People get so busy with the parties and the buying of presents that they
forget about the true meaning of Christmas," said the Rev. Fred Huscher of
the Gethsemane Lutheran Church in Riverside.

But while some Christians wish society would do more to put Christ back in
Christmas, many non-Christians say they feel uncomfortable listening to
Christmas carols and looking at Christmas decorations every time they leave
the house.

"There's an assumption in our society that everybody celebrates Christmas,"
Cohn said. "People are always asking you if you've done your Christmas
shopping or what's Santa bringing you for Christmas. Children are
particularly made to feel very different or left out."

Many Jews say they resent the fact that Christmas has had a direct impact on
placing an artificial importance on Hannukah, a relatively minor religious
holiday. It is only because Hannukah arrives near Christmas that many Jews
have placed such importance on the eight-day event, wanting to give their
children something to celebrate.

But many who practice minority religions, like Hart, have learned to take
advantage of Christmas.

"It gives me an opportunity to tell others about our faith, and that's
something we enjoy doing," he said. He also takes advantage of the post
Christmas sales to buy gifts for Ayyami-Ha, an annual Baha'i celebration
that comes at the end of February.

"It's not so bad for me," said Hart, who stopped celebrating Christmas with
his children after a family meeting to discuss the issue. "But I understand
the difficulties it can place on others."

In Japan, Christmas is for lovers
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

(c) Copyright 1995 Nando.net

New York Times

TOKYO -- Surrounded by Christmas decorations and holiday cheer, Tomomi
Kimura paused outside a department store and balefully explained that she
was in a terrible mood.

"I'm very jealous," she said, glaring at her older sister, who has the
temerity to have a boyfriend. Miss Kimura's problem is that she is 21 and
unattached, and there is no worse time to be alone and Japanese than
Christmas.

Kurisumasu, as Christmas is called in Japanese, is not a national or
religious holiday in Japan, or even a family occasion. Rather it is the most
romantic day of the year for young lovers, a bit like Valentine's Day but
more so.

The importance of Christmas perhaps lies partly in the rare opportunity for
young people to be "ro-man-tik" in a country that traditionally was as
openly affectionate as a Toyota assembly line. The Japanese language, for
example, has more words for rice than for love.

Therefore, some Japanese men turn to self-help books and magazines to get
them through the Christmas holidays. This time of year there are guides
about how to take a girlfriend to Christmas dinner, give her a Christmas
present, and whisper sweet nothings while driving her to a hotel to spend
Christmas night.

"For a guy, Christmas is the best chance to get a girl into his hands," said
Miharu Horie, a 29-year-old teacher. "No girl would turn down a restaurant
dinner and a Christmas present. Of course, she might not want to go all the
way to a hotel room."

Ms. Horie knows firsthand the power of Christmas on a relationship. Last
year her boyfriend took her to a hot-spring resort for Christmas and then
gave her a Christmas present: a pair of sneakers.

"I thought, sneakers?" she recalled. "But I tried them on anyway, because
I'd wanted a pair, and then I felt something under my foot. It was a Tiffany
ring inside the sneaker. I was really moved."

So moved, in fact, that she married the boyfriend this month.

Some Japanese men may have trouble telling their girlfriends they love them,
but they are not cheapskates. Haiko Ono, a 20-year-old university student,
said that she had dropped hints to her boyfriend that for Christmas he
should buy her a handbag costing $300 to $500.

"That's my idea of what he should spend," she said, beaming.

A survey at one department store, Printemps Ginza, found that women expect
their boyfriends to spend an average of $358 on a Christmas present for
them, mostly for jewelry. The women said they would spend an average of $214
on presents for their boyfriends, with luxurious hand-knitted sweaters the
most common gift.

"It's a way to get a woman, or a man," said Motoko Seki, a 23-year-old
economic researcher. "Traditionally, Japan is an unromantic country, and
people don't express love -- so they just buy expensive presents. That's an
exaggeration, but you get the point."

This makes Christmas a costly holiday for a young man in love. On top of the
present, he may take his girlfriend to a nice Christmas dinner at a
restaurant or to one of the many Christmas shows that local hotels are
offering.

The Hotel New Otani, for example, offers eight Christmas dinner shows at up
to $430 per person. Or there is the eight-course Christmas dinner offered in
one of the hotel's Western restaurants, for $390 per person.

Couples who can afford it often spend Christmas eve or Christmas night in a
fancy hotel. The Hotel New Otani offers a double room for $340, including
what is supposed to be a romantic gift of matching pairs of pajamas.

Even for those who make the religious association with the holiday, it is
with a sense of romance.

"I'll be going out with my friends to a church on Christmas, because my
girlfriend has never been to a church," said Makiko Mori, a 23-year-old
woman who works for a transport company. Asked which church she would go to,
she said blithely that any would do.

"It's nothing to do with religion," she explained. "But churches are
romantic places, with all that quiet and those stained glass windows."

Christmas, even without its religious meaning, fits in well with Japanese
culture. Japanese are constantly showering presents upon each other, and in
fact New Year's gifts are far more common for society as a whole than
Christmas presents.

Indeed, the proliferation of Christmas throughout Asia is a tribute to the
lure of Western culture and to the power of retail stores in shaping social
customs.

Shops pushed the concept of Christmas to peddle gifts, and now Christmas is
rapidly becoming an Asia-wide festival, from the fancy lights and
decorations in Singapore to the Santa Claus figures in front of occasional
stores in China.

One of the most remarkable Christmas festivals is in Vietnam, where tens of
thousands of revelers parade on Christmas Eve through the center of Ho Chi
Minh City, formerly Saigon.

In Japan, of course, Christmas is festive only for those in love. On a day
devoted to couples, the most miserable Japanese are those who have no
boyfriends or girlfriends.

"I feel like a complete loser," said Ryo Tsuruta, a 24-year-old man who has
no date for Christmas this year. "There is only one Christmas when I'm 24
years old, and I'm totally screwing it up. It's a waste of a whole year."

    (Though it doesn't happen here in Australia, my brother in-law told me
    over Christmas that Indonesian office Christmas parties are much more
    religious, and they even have a minister in attendance.  It almost
    takes a smaller and less technological country to tell us!)
    
    James

         This is also one of my pet peeves. It ranks right up there with 
    using Xmas instead of Christmas. In the nineties, it appears that we 
    must bend over backwards to avoid "offending" someone. Well, who ever 
    promised that one could go through life without being offended? It
    would seem to me that if no offense was intended, then no offense
    should be taken.
    
         Do Democrats recognize and celebrate Lincoln's Birthday? Of course
    they do, just like Republicans do. Do Republicans celebrate the Fourth
    of July, even though Jefferson was a Democrat? Of course they do.
    
         I don't think there is any doubt that Christ existed and that he
    was a moral teacher of profound influence on Western culture. There is
    no reason why Jews can't at least acknowledge Christ existed, even if
    they don't accept him as the Messiah. There is no reason why atheists
    can't recognize him as a moral philosopher without accepting his
    divinity. There is no reason why Christians can't wish everybody they
    see a Merry Christmas without fear of offending anyone. 
    
         By the way, I am an atheist. My wife is a Catholic, my children
    will make their own choices when they are old enough to do so. We do
    celebrate Christmas, with tree, decorations and presents. To me, as an
    atheist, Christmas is a family holiday and the celebration of the birth
    of a moral teacher, some of whose views I don't agree with. 
    
         Another pet peeve of mine is the idea that you have to be
    religious to be moral; that morality and religion are synonymous.
    
         Merry Christmas!
    
    	Mike 

    ...and there's no reason why Christians can't celebrate Hannukah too
    since Jesus did as well.
    
    Mike

    Fortunately today we live in a country which more closely embodies its
    ideal of being welcoming to all.  Why should Christian's assume that
    their holiday is honored while others holidays are either disparaged or
    ignored.  Being a nation of Christians, Jews, Pagans, Budhists,
    Hindu's, Moslems, American Indians, and a number of other religious
    groups, why should any one group expect that only their holiday be
    recognized?
    
    If I meet someone whom I know to be Christian, I will wish them a Merry
    Christmas.  If I know them to be Jewish, I will wish them a Happy
    Chaunakah, If Pagan, a happy Yule, or Happy Solstice.  If I don't know
    a person's religion, it is bad taste to assume they are Christian.  If
    I am addressing a group, it is also bad taste to assume that there are
    only Christians in the Group.
    
    I dislike being treated as "other than".  Hopefully I will not treat
    anyone else as "other than"

  Should we be careful wishing an Asian "Happy New Year" on Jan 1?  
  



 Jim

>    ideal of being welcoming to all.  Why should Christian's assume that
>    their holiday is honored while others holidays are either disparaged or
>    ignored.  Being a nation of Christians, Jews, Pagans, Budhists,
>    Hindu's, Moslems, American Indians, and a number of other religious
>    groups, why should any one group expect that only their holiday be
>    recognized?
    
    Probably goes back to the roots of why this country was founded in the
    first place.  

    Good question Jim,
    
    I will have to reflect upon it.  Since the calendar we used is the
    standard calendar in the world, I think it is appropriate as a secular
    holiday. 
    
    
    What do you think?
    
    
                                  Patricia

    
    
>    What do you think?
    
    
  I think we got along just fine for several hundred years not worrying
 about offending somebody with everything we say.  It's ridiculous, that's
 what I think.



 Jim

    Jim,
    
    I never thought it tough worrying about someone else's feelings.
    
                                            Patricia

    Re: Note 837.14 by POWDML::FLANAGAN
    
>   I never thought it tough worrying about someone else's feelings.
    
    One can't be all things to all men.  It is mathematically impossible to
    worry about everybody's feelings.  And you'd have to be a chameleon on
    steroids to do it.  ;-)
    
    James

    
>    I never thought it tough worrying about someone else's feelings.
    
 

   Nor do I, Patricia..in fact I worry about other people's feelings to 
   the detriment of my own well being.  But that's not the point.  The point
   is there is, as James pointed out, only so much we can worry about without
   making our own live's miserable.  I don't mind if someone wishes me a
   Happy Chanukah, nor do I mind if they wish me whatever else they wish to
   wish me.  The problem is, while we are worrying about other people's feelings
   with regard to the "C" word, we are offending millions of Christians.  I'm
   certainly offended with the "genericization" of Christmas.  What about
   *my* feelings?



 Jim

| <<< Note 837.15 by AUSSIE::CAMERON "And there shall come FORTH (Isaiah 11:1)" >>>

| One can't be all things to all men.  It is mathematically impossible to
| worry about everybody's feelings.  And you'd have to be a chameleon on
| steroids to do it.  ;-)

  James, I'm going to address this in the typical Jim Henderson fashion. :-)
Does that mean you don't address it because you can't cover everything?

    re: 
    
    'X-mas' as an abbreviation for 'Christmas'. Until recently this used to
    really 'get up my nose', until I was wandering through a Greek
    Interlinear NT. The word 'Christ' was directly under 'Xpistos' (as
    close as I can get without a Greek Character set ;'). Hmmm, thought I.
    An 'X' at the start of 'Christ'. I'd known this for years (viz. ICTHUS
    or 'IXOUS' with the 'O' being 'theta'). Hmmmmm.
    
    This 'clicked' for me when I read about some scribes in the middle ages
    who used 'X-mas' as shorthand for 'Xpistmas' (Christmas) in documents.
    
    So, it doesn't phase me any more. :'}
    
    H

    We have a heritage we can't let the world dilute.  C.S. Lewis wrote
    about this in one of his books and used the changing of the word
    "gentleman" to draw his analogy.  Today the word "gentleman" is a
    compliment.  Years ago it was pretty much a neutral term.  The term
    "Christian" has been diluted too from what its intended meaning is. 
    It's been watered down to the point where almost anyone thinks they can
    apply it to themselves.
    
    The same applies to "Christmas."  It's gradually being diluted and
    losing its distinction.  If Christ tarries until 10 years from now,
    "Christmas" will have been renamed to "Happy Holidays" on all Hallmark
    cards and calendars.
    
    Mike

At least our fearless leader issued some real Christmas greetings:

                            THE WHITE HOUSE

                     Office of the Press Secretary

________________________________________________________________________
For Immediate Release                                  December 20, 1995

			   CHRISTMAS 1995

Warm greetings to everyone celebrating Christmas.

The Christmas story is dear and familiar to us all -- shepherds and
angels, Wise Men and King Herod, Mary and Joseph, and, at the heart
of it all, a Child.  This Child was born into poverty in a city too
crowded to offer Him shelter.  He was sent to a region whose people
had endured suffering, tyranny, and exile.  And yet this Child
brought with Him riches so great that they continue to sustain the
human spirit two thousand years later:  the assurance of God's love
and presence in our lives and the promise of salvation.

Each year at Christmas, we celebrate these gifts with family and
friends.  We place candles in the window as a sign that there is
always room for Christ in our homes.  We put angels and stars and
twinkling lights on the Christmas tree to remind us of the glory and
mystery of Christ's birth.  We sing the old and beloved Christmas
carols to express the joy filling our hearts, and we share special
gifts with those we love, just as God shared His Son with us.  And,
in contemplating the nativity scene under the tree or in a
neighbor's yard, we realize that children hold a special place in
God's heart, since He sent His only Son to us as a little Child.

With this simple truth in mind, let us observe Christmas this year by
making a solemn commitment to the children of our communities, our
nation, and the world.  Let us pledge to love and nurture them and
promise to give them strong values and a chance to make the most of
their God-given talents.  Let us resolve that they will grow up in a
world that is free and at peace.  By cherishing the children God
sends us, we express our love and gratitude for the one Child He
sent whose coming offers forgiveness and hope to us all.

Hillary and I send best wishes for a blessed and joyous Christmas
season and every happiness in the new year.


      	    	  	      	    	  WILLIAM J. CLINTON


                                     # # #

    I wonder who wrote it for him.

Socks?

/john

	For such a loving place, so much slamming gets done. It's obvious that
God used the President to get His message out. Yet some in here seem to slam
Clinton. Truly sad.



Glen

 New rule in the New World Order:


 Christians may not voice their opinions.





 Jim

    I guess if God can make Balaam's donkey talk, He could make Clinton
    speak too.

    I wonder why the press never covered this.  Did he only release it
    online?  Did he give this as a speech somewhere over the weekend?  I
    guess he didn't want the press to cover it too much in fear that he
    might offend all his liberal supporters.  
    
    Mike

        Anyone who has kids and/or reads the Bible, especially the words of
        Jesus, knows that love can be confrontational.  Seems like the idea
        of love in today's world is to approve of whatever anyone does
        because he means well.  For example, "How original, Johnny! 2+2=5!
        That's so creative!"

	On the other hand, we are told in Romans 13 and in either 1st or
	2nd Peter to show reverence for those in authority.  Daniel 4 makes
	it clear that it is God Himself that sets up rulers over the
	kingdoms of men.  Scripture also says that we should pray for our
	rulers, and that if they have peace, so will we.

	However, we must identify sin when we see it, though we must not do
	so hypocritically.  Jesus, John the Baptist, and the prophets of
	old should be our role models in this.

	Perhaps God chooses "the basest of men" to rule over the kingdoms
	of man in order to sharpen and hone His servants, who must then
	walk the tightrope between reverence for authority and reproof of
	sin.

        As an aside, the beginning of the president's message reads like a
        good argument against abortion.  He cites all the common reasons
        for abortion and then shows how precious one child can really be.

	Interesting.

	Regards,
		TonyC
		

| <<< Note 837.24 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Praise His name I am free" >>>

| New rule in the New World Order:
| Christians may not voice their opinions.

	Voicing an opinion that slams another for no reason at all is wrong,
and un-Christian.



Glen

 OK, Glen.  I'll remember that.






 Thanks

 Jim

    I guess Jesus was "un-Christian" then.

        The religious and civil authorities in Judea and environs were so
        corrupt that Jesus could only reprove them.  But he was not
        hypocritical in His rebuke.  Indeed we must reprove sin, and expose
        apostacy and compromise, but we must be sure that we are without
        sin first.  Since that ain't likely to happen any time soon, we
        must be humble in our reproof of sin.  It is a tightrope, and the
        best way to navigate it is with Scripture.  If you can quote, "Thus
        saith the Lord" before delivering a reproof of any public official,
        you're probably on solid ground, because it's not your saying, but
        that of Yahweh Elohim.  Haughty sarcasm and ridicule should be
        eschewed, unless you're ready to die for the people you scorn, as
        Jesus did.

	Hey!  I'm as guilty of this as anyone!

	God's peace,
		TonyC
	

RE: <<< Note 837.25 by OUTSRC::HEISER "watchman on the wall" >>>
>>                            -< donkeys exist today >-
>>
>>    I guess if God can make Balaam's donkey talk, He could make Clinton
>>    speak too.

        Forgive me, Lord, but I did laugh when I read this. Maybe it was 
        the donkey double entendre that got me.  I'm a sap for a good
        one-liner.  Sigh ...

	TonyC

     Sometimes I think that believers can become jaded in their judgement
     of those who do not agree 100% with their entire line of social and
     political goals.  I agree with Glen in this topic. Instead of seeing
     hope and joy that perhaps Clinton has at least some knowledge of God
     and can grow, I see cynicism expressed in the comments of people with 
     whom I normally share so much. It saddens me.

     I thought Clinton's message spoke genuine truth. I don't know whether
     or not it expresses what is truely in his heart.  Therefore, I will 
     pray that if it does express what he really believes, Clinton will be 
     given the grace and strength to move in a direction that is according 
     to God's will. If it does not express what he really believes, I pray
     the Spirit of God will turn Clinton's heart in the direction that his 
     words spoke.

     Leslie

RE:     <<< Note 837.33 by CPCOD::JOHNSON "A rare blue and gold afternoon" >>>

	Amen, Leslie.  But remember that it's often not just "social and
	political" agendas that are contested, but the validation and
	glorification of sin.  These things we must speak against, and pray
	for understanding on the part of those who see nothing wrong with
	them, as you are clearly prepared to do.

        Glen, be careful in what you say.  Are you innocent of the very
        thing you accuse in others?  

	Let us all keep the following passage from Luke chapter 9 in mind.

          (54)  And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said,
          Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven,
          and consume them, even as Elias did?

          (55)  But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what
          manner of spirit ye are of.

          (56)  For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but
          to save them. And they went to another village.

	God's peace to all,
		TonyC

| <<< Note 837.29 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Praise His name I am free" >>>

| OK, Glen.  I'll remember that.

	Thanks, Jim! I'm sure you will! :-)

| <<< Note 837.30 by OUTSRC::HEISER "watchman on the wall" >>>


| I guess Jesus was "un-Christian" then.

	Jesus KNEW, you are not Jesus, or anywhere near His level. None of US
are. 



Glen

 I'll offer my apologies for being a bit snappy today and yesterday.  Lots
 of stuff going on that has me a bit on edge.



 Sorry, folks.




 Jim

| <<< Note 837.34 by STAR::CAMUSO "alphabits" >>>

| Glen, be careful in what you say. Are you innocent of the very thing you 
| accuse in others?

	Me? Innocent? I try to be. But I am human. So like you or anyone else,
there are failings. I "try" to not do it deliberately. 



Glen

> I'll offer my apologies for being a bit snappy today and yesterday.  Lots
> of stuff going on that has me a bit on edge.

> Sorry, folks.

  I can understand the being a bit on edge Jim. Hope things are better soon.
  Love ya.
                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tony,

Yes I agree, one must take care in their moral stand and not validate or
applaud evil. And I agreed with you previous notes also.

Leslie

>	Jesus KNEW, you are not Jesus, or anywhere near His level. None of US
>are. 
    
    what exactly is "His level"?

	Actions speak louder than words.  Bill Clinton, by his actions so
far, has done more to grant special, privileged, tax-funded status to
abortion than any president before him.  His words, though true and
gracious enough, are rightly met with skepticism.  Nobody slammed him
without good reason.

And I'll freely admit that I wrote "Socks" because I like his cat better
than I like him.  And I've met his cat.

/john

| <<< Note 837.40 by OUTSRC::HEISER "watchman on the wall" >>>

| what exactly is "His level"?

	All knowing.

| <<< Note 837.41 by CUJO::SAMPSON >>>

| Actions speak louder than words.  Bill Clinton, by his actions so
| far, has done more to grant special, privileged, tax-funded status to
| abortion than any president before him.  His words, though true and
| gracious enough, are rightly met with skepticism.  Nobody slammed him
| without good reason.

	Let's see..... a person is known to be mean. That person helps someone
out. So because of his prior things he did, people should slam this person for
helping another. To me, that is wrong. Maybe that is one reason why Christianity
is getting a bad name. If you feel you have to judge someone, please, judge
them for the action they did, not for their prior stuff? 

	I don't know if Clinton meant what he said. But I do know Who it was
that got him to say what he did. And for THAT, I give praise. For the message,
I give praise. Not a slam.


Glen

    >	All knowing.
    
    Glen, I thought only God could do this?

Mike, Jesus is God.  Remember?

/john

    Glen,
    
    I am finding that reading your philosophy on human behavior and 
    interaction somewhat insightful, yet I must admit to being left with a 
    question mark as well.
    
    Perfection imo is very difficult to obtain for it can only be obtained
    when the tongue is in submission.  Therefore, I am wondering how do
    you stand on forgiveness for those whom you feel unjustly judge others?
    
    

    >Mike, Jesus is God.  Remember?
    
    John, you and I know that.  The UU's don't.

Yabbut, has Glen ever claimed to be a UU?

Besides, UUs are so inclusive that they even have people who DO believe
that Jesus is God.  And those who think he's God on Tuesdays, Thursdays,
and Saturdays, and that Jerry Lewis takes over on the other days.

/john

    
    Throughout this discussion, I believe we should remember David's stance 
    regarding Saul when Abishai wanted to kill Saul (1 Samuel 26)
    
    ... Don't destroy him!  Who can lay a hand on the Lord's annointed
    and be guiltless?...
    
    Remember, there are several references that God will put in power who 
    He will put in power.  Do we have the right to speak against God's
    annointed even if we disagree with them?
    
    Mary Jo 
    
    

    John,
    
    Your ridicule isn't much appreciated here.  Whilst I hold firm to the
    belief in the Trinity and Christ Jesus, it does not give me the right
    to disparage another human being.  I'd ask you to examine your words
    and see if their is any love and/or compassion for those whom are
    different than yourself.  I see ridicule in your previous note and am
    rather saddened by it.
    
    I'd also to ask you to remember you are in the Christian notesfile, and
    review the guidelines for participation.
    
    Nancy

>    ... Don't destroy him!  Who can lay a hand on the Lord's annointed
>    and be guiltless?...
    
    Mary Jo, people like Benny Hinn use this same verse to justify their
    unbiblical practices and teaching.
    
>    Remember, there are several references that God will put in power who 
>    He will put in power.  Do we have the right to speak against God's
>    annointed even if we disagree with them?
    
    God has always raised up people who condemned the anti-biblical actions
    of leaders.  Some of the OT prophets were killed because of this.  Many
    of the disciples were also killed because of their exposing the sins of
    leaders.
    
    Mike

Nancy,

It's not ridicule.  It's absolutely true.  That would be a perfectly
acceptable belief for a UU.

Why they even have _atheist_ pastors.  And witches.  Really!

/john

    
    Oh, good.  I have been called a lot of things in my life.  Now
    'Benny Hinn'!   
    
    Naja, back to work on something productive.
    
    Mary Jo 
    

    Mary Jo, I didn't call you anything.

Benny Hill!  Njahh njahh, njahh!  You Benny Hill, you!

>>RE: <<< Note 837.56 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >>>
>>
>>Benny Hill!  Njahh njahh, njahh!  You Benny Hill, you!

        That's Benny HINN, who is (was ?) a controversial TV preacher. 
        I've never seen him, nor am I familiar with the details of his
        theology, but I have heard there was a great deal of furor over his
        TV show and that he has since departed from what some reported as
	extra-biblical excesses. 

	Peace,
		TonyC
		

    Gee Glen,
    
    I never knew you were a "closet" UU.
    
                                      Patricia

You UU, you!

    You, ewe, U!

    
    Lets see, names I like being called...
    
      Beverly Sills 
    
    is my favorite.
    
    Mary Jo 

| <<< Note 837.45 by OUTSRC::HEISER "watchman on the wall" >>>

| Glen, I thought only God could do this?

	God, Jesus, they're the same Guy! :-)

| <<< Note 837.47 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" >>>

| Perfection imo is very difficult to obtain for it can only be obtained when 
| the tongue is in submission.  

	I wish I could agree with the above.... but it is my belief that one
can't have perfection while in the human form. Of course it doesn't mean we
shouldn't try. :-)

| Therefore, I am wondering how do you stand on forgiveness for those whom you 
| feel unjustly judge others?

	It's between God and the person as far as what will happen to the
person. If I don't forgive them, or offer it up to God to handle, then it would
mean that I too, am judging.


Glen

| <<< Note 837.48 by OUTSRC::HEISER "watchman on the wall" >>>

| John, you and I know that.  The UU's don't.

	I am also a recovering Catholic. :-)

| <<< Note 837.49 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >>>

| Besides, UUs are so inclusive that they even have people who DO believe
| that Jesus is God.  And those who think he's God on Tuesdays, Thursdays,
| and Saturdays, and that Jerry Lewis takes over on the other days.

	For a man who put in all these Ron Glover notes when he thought others
were bashing Catholics, I'm amazed you would say this. Well, actually I guess
I'm not surprised.



Glen

| <<< Note 837.53 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >>>


| It's not ridicule.  It's absolutely true.  

	For you to believe it to be true, you would have to know someone who
thinks Jerry Lewis takes over on the other days. If you can't say that, then it
isn't true, and you have ridiculed.



Glen

I'll admit to a grammatical error.  They may not have anyone now.

But if one applied, they wouldn't turn him away.

/john

What Jim and I want to know is when's Rasta night at Zero Church Street.

/johyn

    .63
    
    Glen,
    
    I couldn't agree with you more on this one.  
    
    
    FWIW, the Bible says that one who can bridle the tongue has reached
    perfection. I don't recall the exact chapter and verse right now, I
    believe it is either Heb 3 or James 3.
    
    Nancy

>What Jim and I want to know is when's Rasta night at Zero Church Street.


 Sorry John, I gave up Rasta many years ago. 



 Jim Mon

	Jim, I thought that was pasta! :-)

	And they say miracles can't happen..... Nancy and I agree! heh heh

    
    I talked with a friend in England that said that they have not been
    seeing the "Happy Holidays" craze. England contains many religions. I
    also am not saying that I believe that the marjority of Americans
    celebrate Christmas as a religious holiday, but most Americans
    celebrate Christmas. There have also been 100's of songs that have been
    written in the US about Christmas by everybody, not just Christians.
    Celebrating Christmas is an American tradition. I do not mind telling
    anyone Happy Hannukah etc, nor would I go to personnel if someone told
    me Happy Hannukah. I think that the US is trying to water down an
    American tradition, by being politically correct.
    
    When I got back to work someone said "Did you have a nice holiday?", but
    on the way out the same person said " Have a nice New Year!". I thought
    about saying, you must mean "Have a nice Holiday". 
    
    Happy New Year!
    Sam
     
    

For someone who does not celebrate Christmas I found
John's note in .2 very refreshing. It would certainly
be insincere of myself to wish anyone a merry Christmas
or a happy new year. However, I believe that "holiday" 
has a different meaning in the States to here in the UK. 
In that, here a holiday is usually readily understood
as a vacation rather than a "holy day". So would anyone
be offended if a work colleague like myself responded 
"Thank you, I hope you have a restful time off work" to 
the greeting "Merry Christmas" ? just curious. 

BTW I don't think persons are offended by christmas
greetings. Peer pressure to join in the festivities
can be a problem though, some are unwilling to take
"no, thank you" for an answer to an invitation to 
join in the celebrations even go so far as to be 
offeneded by one not joining in. This makes me sigh
every year and I'm glad when everything is all over.

Phil.

    As I remember, December 25 is a pagan holiday anyway. It is a
    celebration of the birth of the sun not the Son. Is it not because
    this is when days begin to get longer (25 being the longest) and
    the heathen used to celebrate the returning of their sun god? I 
    believe Jesus was born in October (shepheards in the fields), and
    not December. At any rate I can't see how anyone should be offended
    when someone out of the spirit of love wishes them happiness.
    Just the opinion of a very back slidden christian. 
    
    pj

    Wishes who happiness? :-)  sorry I just didn't follow it.
    
    And fwiw, I was very backslidden Christian for 8 years!  I've now been
    replacing rebellion with effort to live more like Him for going on 10
    years.  Is it easier today then back then?  No.  But I'm happier!
    
    :-)
    
    Nancy