Conference yukon::christian_v7

	Then are you saying one does not have to be a Christian to gain entry
into Heaven?




Glen

    In addition to what Glen asked, how do you know Christians don't become
    Jews?  Zechariah says we will all celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles in
    Jerusalem during Messiah's millienial reign.
    
    Mike

I know that Jesus Christ is God and that heaven is His Great Wedding Feast.

Those who reject him will not be there.

>How do you know Christians don't become Jews.

They do.  Christians are grafted into his people.

At least that's what God's Word says.

/john

    thanks for answering your own questions in .0

<---grin...

	Then it would appear, John, from what you have said is one has to
believe in Him to get into Heaven. I too, believe this to be true.



Glen

>believe in Him to get into Heaven.

Yes.  And in Heaven, one finds out that Jesus is Him, and everyone becomes a
Christian.

/john

A trinitarian Christian, FWIW.

/john

In heaven, the catholic judeo-christian religion is perfected, and everyone
there practices it.

/john

	John, where does the Bible come into play?

      Jew = Abraham's seed = faithful = Christian

    >Yes.  And in Heaven, one finds out that Jesus is Him, and everyone
    >becomes a Christian.
    
    I'm confused by what you are saying here, at face value, it says all
    people who die go to heaven and become a Christian.  Can you please
    explain what you mean?
    

What I mean is that since the Bible is very clear that

	in Heaven we will be attending the Wedding Feast of the Lamb
	in Heaven we will be worshipping Jesus as God

Therefore the only people who will even want to be in Heaven are those
who profess Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour once they are there.

If it's possible for someone who has not professed Jesus as Lord and
Saviour before dying to get to heaven by some other means (God's irrevocable
Covenent with the Jews, for example), that person will, once there, _have_
to become a Christian (have to believe that Jesus is God).  It will be
obvious to even the most obstinate.

But unless we lose free will, there might be some so stubborn as to see
Jesus on the throne and refuse to stay.  Maybe they don't want to be in a
heaven ruled by Our Lord.  Let's pray for them, that they do decide to
accept the Kingship of Jesus, which makes them Christians, and stay.

/john

.0 is rather a nice way of putting it.  Thanks John...

.2, Mike, celebrating the Feast of Tabernacles isn't equivalent to becoming 
a Jew.  That same chapter 14 in Zechariah specifies that all nations will go 
up to worship; not that 'everyone will be Jews and will therefore go to
worship'.  The penalty for not worshipping is also mentioned per nation 
(:16-:19).

The only way I recall us identifying with Jews, is where we have the faith 
of Abraham, and are in that sense considered his offspring.

Perhaps it depends upon whether your definition of Jew is in the temporal 
sense or not...


However, to most Jews, this terminology would be confusing at best, and 
possibly even offensive, because there is a sad misunderstanding of the 
significance of Christianity.  In many parts of the world, and in many 
cultures, the term 'Christianity' is taken to be a cultural description, 
rather than a spiritual description, inherited by birth rather than 
received through repentance.  Also, people take the name without the 
repentance and changed life which only the blood of Jesus can bring, and by 
their consequent actions bring the Name erroneously into disrepute.  

For instance, by culture, Hitler is reckoned as a Christian! To imply to a
Jew that he needs to align with those beliefs (and, by implication,
practices) is obviously grossly unacceptable, and a betrayal of all their
call and inheritance.  The Name of Christ means salvation to us, because of
Who He is and what He has done.  To Jews, it is a foreign - Greek - word
which is outside their culture.  The name the faithful anticipate is
Messiah, which we would rarely use, but which would be acceptable to most. 

I like the words of a spiritual Jew, living in Israel (paraphrased):

"I cannot accept that Jesus is the Messiah.  But when the Messiah comes, 
I shall not be surprised if I find that He is Jesus."

re .10, Glen, it's all in the Bible if you keep reading it carefully and
prayerfully.

 					God bless
 							Andrew

    <<< Note by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" >>>

830.12 �> Yes.  And in Heaven, one finds out that Jesus is Him, and everyone
830.12 �> becomes a Christian.
    
830.12 � I'm confused by what you are saying here, at face value, it says all
830.12 � people who die go to heaven and become a Christian.  Can you please
830.12 � explain what you mean?
    
Psalm 19 and Romans 1:20 show that there is enough evidence in creation for 
people who have never heard the Name of Jesus, had any part of the Bible, 
or teaching about the LORD to recognise His perfection, holiness and glory, 
and our fallen state, and to come to a state of repentance, faith and trust 
in a salvation He provides.  The revelation that God can anser this sort 
of faith with can be seen in Job (eg 16:19-21, 19:25-27).  Job never knew 
the name 'Jesus', or the title 'Christ', but when we meet him in heaven, it 
will be because he has also been saved by Jesus' blood, just as we are.


								Andrew

>when we meet Job in heaven, it will be because he has also been saved
>by Jesus' blood, just as we are.

Yes.

In heaven, Job will know that truth, and will be glad to consider himself
a Christian.

/john

    Hi,
    
    I'm not nearly the Bible students as other contributors to this
    conference, but in Romans (don't know which chapter.verse) it states
    that we are adopted into the family of Abraham.  Therefore, does it not
    stand to reason that followers of Christ, Christians, will become Jews
    by adoption, giving us the same legal status as those whose heritage is
    by birth.  Also, another thought.  Jesus is a Jew by bloodline.  If we
    become his brother/sister positionally through our "born again"
    experience, do we not then become "Jews".  
    
    If this is correct, then my reasoning would be that in Heaven,
    Christians (followers of Christ) would become Jews not that Jews would become
    "Christians".  If we come into the family of Christ Jesus who is a Jew, 
    would we not take on His heritage.  Jews who acknowledge Jesus as
    Messiah would become followers of Christ or Christians but because of
    their bloodline never cease to be Jews.
    
    What do you think?
    
    Gerri
    

    .18
    
    :-)  Actually that has always been my understanding.  However, I
    believe that it is a term on semantics.  I don't believe that we will
    be either Jew or Gentile in heaven, but sons and daughters of God
    whatever is his spiritual nature.
    
    I think it just means that we will all be reconciled unto God and Truth
    will be known to those whom God has chosen that did not believe in
    Jesus on earth.
    
    

re .18

I'm sure that in heaven everyone knows that Jesus Christ is God and Saviour.

That makes everyone a Christian.

There is no conflict between being a Christian and a Jew.  It was Our
Lord's intention for all Jews to be Christians, and many are.

And all the faithful ones who make it to heaven will see that and will
become Christians.

/john

    I wonder whether you could apply the statement that a true Christian
    was one that was one inwardly.

 Possibly, though God seems to be telling us to let our lights show before
 men (humanity) that they may see our good works and glorify our Father which
 is in Heaven.


 When I was first saved, realizing what God did for *me*, I could not keep it
 inward.


 Or am I missing your point?

RE:   <<< Note 830.15 by ICTHUS::YUILLE "He must increase - I must decrease" >>>

    
>Psalm 19 and Romans 1:20 show that there is enough evidence in creation for 
>people who have never heard the Name of Jesus, had any part of the Bible, 
>or teaching about the LORD to recognise His perfection, holiness and glory, 
>and our fallen state, and to come to a state of repentance, faith and trust 
>in a salvation He provides.  The revelation that God can anser this sort 
>of faith with can be seen in Job (eg 16:19-21, 19:25-27).  Job never knew 
>the name 'Jesus', or the title 'Christ', but when we meet him in heaven, it 
>will be because he has also been saved by Jesus' blood, just as we are.

Andrew that's one of the most concise & best explanations I have seen on this
subject.

Leslie

      Hi,
    
        I see something a little differently.  John, you seem to be 
        saying that one is not a Christian if one does not know the
        name of Christ.  You refer to Job coming to know the truth in
        heaven.
    
        I believe that He who has faith is a Christian.  I believe 
        possibly identically to Andrew on this matter.  A person may
        not have heard the name Jesus and may never have heard of 
        the cross, but he may have responded to at least the word of
        creation by faith as Romans 1/Psalm 19 bear out.
    
        If so, this person's revelation was a revelation of Jesus Christ
        as it was the word of Christ which created.  To put another way,
        this person responded by faith to the word of Jesus Christ so
        he responded to Jesus Christ Himself.  What little truth he knew
        was truth *OF* Jesus Christ.
    
        How then can he not already have been a Christian *before* he
        died???
    
    						Tony

RE:                      <<< Note 830.18 by STOWOA::MOISAN >>>


Gerri,

I pretty much agree, and I also agree with Nancy's post. Maybe we won't even
be speaking English any more, in which case the terms Christian & Jew become
somewhat moot. What remains is that those who are God's know and love God, and
follow God with all their heart and strength, and that they know Yeshua (Jesus)
is both the Son of God and the Messiah.

Leslie

    I better be on my best behavior now that Gerri is in here ;-)

    well *that* will be a change :') :') :') :') :') :') :') :') :') :')

	I could be wrong, but maybe Patricia was talking about one's heart
being in line with His, not so much how you express yourself. I'm sure she will
correct me if I am wrong.


Glen

    re: .27
    >    well *that* will be a change :') :') :') :') :') :') :') :') :') :')
    

    
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    that just cracked me up! :')

    Michael, you haven't changed one bit!  Actually I've been "read only"
    for a while and have told your mother (Mike's mother and I go back to
    our grammer school years, long before he was even thought of) about
    some of the things I've read in here.
    
    You can bet she'll hear about this one, too! (Just kidding)  That did a
    lot to break up the mood of a serious topic.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Gerri
    

I agree with much of .20, but would like to rephrase the last sentence.

� And all the faithful ones who make it to heaven will see that and will
� become Christians.

Those who have the faith of Abraham (in God), enter heaven realising
that Jesus' blood brought them there, as it did every other Christian.

ie - I wouldn't see them as 'becoming one of the faithful' on entry to
heaven, but rather as already being a part of the company of the faithful
on earth (even though as then unrecognised), and seeing the fulness of it all 
means once they are in heaven.

Maybe that sounds nit-picking, but it's how I would see those mentioned, 
for instance in Hebrews 11.

								Andrew

    Right, it's not like you can make the decision once you're there.  It
    would be too easy and pretty much a no-brainer decision by then.  It
    also contradicts scripture.

�    Right, it's not like you can make the decision once you're there.  

Because by then, when one is out of this body, it is not a matter of faith.
Faith only exists where there is incomplete knowledge, and faith invites
God to fill the void in the heart with His righteousness.  A reversal of 
rebellion.  We live in a material, transient world, which is passing away,
but it protects us from seeing the eternal reality which does not pass away. 

When we leave the physical body, our decision is already made.  We are then 
what we shall be for eternity.  The die is cast.

The reason Adam and Eve had to be excluede from the Garden of Eden was so 
that they wouldn't eat the fruit of the tree of life.  It would have 
removed their mortality, leaving them, like the fallen angels, eternally 
evil.  The flaming swords of the cherubim were for their - and our - 
protection, so that salvation could come.  It wouldn't be enough just to 
tell Adam and Eve not to eat that fruit - they'd already shown themselves 
unable to resist that temptation once, and the consequences of eating this 
one would be irretrievable.  It wasn't just a punishment, but a pointer to 
the experience of the eternal divide.  Interesting if unuseful to speculate
whether, had Adam and Eve first eaten the permitted fruit of the tree of
life, whether that would have taken them into eternity without the fall or
sacrifice.  As unuseful, I won't pursue it... ;-)

>    Right, it's not like you can make the decision once you're there.  It
>    would be too easy and pretty much a no-brainer decision by then.  It
>    also contradicts scripture.

When, then, does the faithful Jew who absolutely rejected the person of Jesus
during his earthly life get to make the decision to worship Him in heaven?

Maybe this must just be explained away by saying that the faithful Jew
doesn't make a decision for Jesus, but instead simply understands, and
that no faithful person could see Jesus on the throne of glory and say
"I spent my whole life saying that this was wrong; I'm not going to
change now."

Is this understanding that Jesus is God reached in an instant for the
faithful person, or is there a process of "growing in the love and
knowledge of God" that occurs?

/john

re .34

The usual outcome of that speculation is that if they had eaten of the tree
of life without Christ and while still "dead in their sins", it would have
been "the night of the living dead".

/john

    RE: .35
    
    Hi, John.
    
    As you may or may not know, I am a stickler for definitions, for better
    or worse. :-)
    
    In the spirit of understanding to establish the common ground of Truth,
    how do you define/characterize "the faithful Jew?"  Specifically, what
    is that Jew's faith and what is the object of that faith?
    
    Thanks.
    
    /Wayne

    P.S.  In some topic somewhere in this conference, you brought greetings
    from Arabic, German, French, etc. Christians.  What exactly was your
    point?  I took your intent to suggest that people with different words
    in different languages might see the One True God and describe Him
    differently, i.e., were we to translate their language into English, an
    obvious meaning/nuance in the original language might not find adequate
    expression in English, and the description as translated might fail to
    capture our perception and we would conclude that the person was not
    really seeing God.  The better alternative would be to fully research
    the original language to capture the nuances, thereby growing our own
    understanding of God.  Did I miss the point?  Or was the point I took
    actually a deep fly out to right field, going well beyond what you
    meant? :-)  Or did you simply mean there were other words for God?

re .-1

I'm not going to try to define it.  What does God's Word say?

/john

    RE: .38
    
    Sorry, John, didn't mean to bother you.
    
    Please forgive my asking improperly.  What I meant to ask was how do you
    believe God defines/characterizes "the faithful Jew?"  Specifically, what
    is that Jew's faith and what is the object of that faith, according to
    God's Word?
    
    God's Word says "he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is
    that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew,
    which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the
    spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."
    (Ro 2:28&29, KJV)
    
    "By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his
    sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.  But now the
    righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by
    the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God which is by
    faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe; for
    there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the
    glory of God; being justified freely by his grace through the
    redemption that is in Jesus Christ: whom God hath set forth to be a
    propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness
    for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of
    God; to declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might
    be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.  Where is
    boasting then?  It is excluded.  By what law? of works?  Nay; but by
    the law of faith.  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by
    faith without the deeds of the law.  Is he the God of the Jews only? is
    he not also of the Gentiles?  Yes, of the Gentiles also:  Seeing it is
    one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and
    uncircumcision through faith." (Ro 3:20-30, KJV)
    
    "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every
    one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of
    him." (1Jn 5:1, KJV)
    
    "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 
    Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of
    debt.  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that
    justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."
    (Ro 4:3-5, KJV)
    
    "Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are
    covered.  Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin."
    (Ro 4:7&8, KJV)
    
    "<Abraham> staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but
    was strong in faith, giving glory to God; and being fully persuaded,
    that what he had promised, he was able also to perform.  And therefore
    it was imputed to him for righteousness.  Now it was not written for
    his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; but for us also, to whom
    it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord
    from the dead; who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again
    for our justification.  Therefore being justifed by faith, we have
    peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: by whom also we have
    access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope
    of the glory of God." (Ro 4:20-5:2, KJV)

    Is there more you would add?
    
    /Wayne

re .-1

Yes, but of what use to Jews is the New Testament, which those who
are not yet Christians reject?  In heaven they will know its truth,
but for now, they must "unknowingly" receive Jesus's salvation
through the teachings of Judaism.

Praise God for being so merciful as to provide a way (which he has not
fully revealed to us yet) for his faithful people Israel, who reject his
Son in this life, to be followers of the Lord Jesus in heaven and to
live with him in glory everlasting!

/john

I would define faithful Jews as those to whom God gives eternal life because
they sought glory, honor and immortality by persistence in doing good.  (See
Ro 2:7)

I would define that Jew's faith as not working, but believing in hope against
hope, being fully persuaded that God has power to do what He has promised.
(See Ro 4:5,18&21)

I would define the object of that Jew's faith as the Messiah, the promised and
expected deliverer sent by God. (See Is 19:20 and Ac 7)

Jesus is the Christ of God, the only begotten Son of God, the only name given
to men by which we must be saved (see Jn 20:31); therefore, the faithful Jew's
Messiah must be our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.  The faithful Jew who loves
God will love Jesus (see 1Jn 5:1).

Abraham's faith stands as an example, both in the O.T. and the N.T.  Those who
reject the N.T. as God's Word now share the destiny of those who rejected Jesus
Christ in the days of His (and their) flesh.

What does God's Word say?  Or are you saying that the N.T. really is not God's
Word, that Jesus Christ really was not God in the flesh?

Or are you only saying that God has not yet revealed all Truth of His Word to
your heart, i.e., that you do not perfectly understand God's Word yet?  This,
too, I must confess.

I gather you hold there MUST be way for a faithful Jew to be saved OTHER than
trusting the Christ of God (by faith) in this earthly life.  What is the basis
for that conclusion?  Is this other way to God accessible only in Judaism, or
might other religions also benefit?  Or will you not try to answer because
that way has not been fully revealed yet?

/Wayne

>Or will you not try to answer because that way has not been fully revealed
>yet?

What we as Christians _must_ teach is what is revealed: the only means of
salvation is accepting Christ Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

I'll let others explain how Jews who reject Jesus in this life are saved.
I think they'll base it on the truth that God is faithful to his promises,
and that the Covenant with Abraham is still valid.  How to resolve this
with the Christian doctrine that one must believe in Jesus before death
has, in my opinion, not been fully revealed.

If it is true that Jews benefit from the salvation brought by Jesus, and
I believe it is true, and almost every reply prior to yours would seem to
agree that it is true, even for Jews who refuse to believe in Jesus before
death, my premise in .0 is also true: anyone who benefits from the salvation
brought by Jesus _must_ come to accept Him as Lord when they stand before Him.

As was pointed out earlier, then it will no longer be a matter of faith,
because "faith" will no longer be required.  But free will is still
available, and those who choose to follow Satan into the pit instead of
staying in the presence of Jesus and worshipping Him in the Holy Trinity
will be allowed to go to the destruction of their own choosing.

>Those who reject the N.T. as God's Word now share the destiny of those who
>rejected Jesus Christ in the days of His (and their) flesh.

This is a very strong statement, similar to decrees issued by the Council
of Florence that all those, Jew, Heathen, or Heretic, who do not enter into
the Body of Christ before death will perish in everlasting fire.

There are quite a few participants in this conference who believe that the
Jews are somehow exempt from this; that they only need to follow the O.T.
for their salvation.

How this works has not been fully revealed (at least not to my satisfaction)
yet.  However, the _results_ of this are as I stated in .0:  All who are
saved -- all who go to heaven -- come to believe fully in Christ, in his
salvation, in his full participation in the Holy Trinity.  As a result,
they are Christians (which does not mean they cease to be Jews).

/john

      There is only one faith, a faith which responds to the love (agape)
      of God which is a faith which responds to the love of Jesus Christ.
    
      Whether the Jewish person knows it or not, if he has faith, he is
      responding by that faith to a revelation of Jesus Christ.
    
      There is no other way for when you see any of the Father, you have
      seen the Son and vice versa.
    
    							Tony

	John,

	Personally, I don't intend to imply that Jewish people have any
special exemption that gets them to God the Father by any other means
except through Jesus the Messiah, just like everyone else.  Scripture
is very clear on that, as you know.

	My observation is that there are historical and cultural reasons
why Jewish people often react negatively to cultural aspects of Christian
religion.  This can present a barrier to them in hearing about and taking
to heart the good news of the Messiah, which they need to hear and respond
to in faith, just as much as anyone else.

	What I believe is that anyone who wants to know the Truth will
be rewarded with the clear opportunity to respond to Him, with all of the
misinformation removed.  There is some Scriptural support for this, but I
don't understand any of the particulars of how and when God may accomplish it.
That makes me very uncomfortable with the idea that I can just sit by while
thousands of people around me live their lives and slip into eternity
without ever clearly hearing about Jesus.  It is my duty to be faithful to
warn others of the peril of not being reconciled to God through the blood
sacrifice of His Son.

						* Be Different *
						* Go to Heaven *
						* Bring Others *

| What we as Christians _must_ teach is what is revealed: the only means of
| salvation is accepting Christ Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

** Amen.

| I'll let others explain how Jews who reject Jesus in this life are saved.
| I think they'll base it on the truth that God is faithful to his promises,
| and that the Covenant with Abraham is still valid.  How to resolve this
| with the Christian doctrine that one must believe in Jesus before death
| has, in my opinion, not been fully revealed.

** My resolution is that the Christ of God fulfils both the law and the
   promise.  He obviously is not the Deliverer most Jews expected, but that
   does not change the fact that He is the Messiah.

   I'm also impelled to note that God is the One who justifies.  "Even as
   Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.  Know
   ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of
   Abraham." (Ga 3:6&7)  The law does not set aside the promise made to
   Abraham.

   "...for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward
   appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart." (Is 16:7)  The faith
   that God sees is that which counts for righteousness.  What I see or
   do not see regarding another man is of no consequence.  I do believe
   there will be those in heaven, Jew first and then Gentile, who might not
   describe their faith with words I would require in order to deem them
   saved.  Praise God that the destiny of the faithful Jew does not depend on
   my judgment because my faith is not yet sight!  In other words, I do not
   yet see all that God sees.

   I guess the crux for me is how to equate belief in God (being fully
   persuaded that God is able to do what He promised) with faith in Christ
   per se.  God can certainly reconcile all things unto Himself without my
   understanding!  I see the common aspect of dependence upon God's grace
   alone.  My difficulty centers around how one could love God without
   embracing Jesus.

| If it is true that Jews benefit from the salvation brought by Jesus, and
| I believe it is true, and almost every reply prior to yours would seem to
| agree that it is true, even for Jews who refuse to believe in Jesus before
| death, my premise in .0 is also true: anyone who benefits from the salvation
| brought by Jesus _must_ come to accept Him as Lord when they stand before Him.

** I agree that Jews benefit from the salvation brought by Jesus, though I am
   unable to see how those who have refused to believe in Jesus can be saved.
   But, I also know that Truth does not depend on my ability to see.  Again,
   I guess all I can say is that I don't see how anyone can be saved without
   loving the Christ of God.

   By my understanding, anyone who benefits from the salvation brought by
   Jesus _must_ come to accept Him as Lord IN ORDER to stand before Him and
   live forever.  I appreciate the point you're making, though.

| As was pointed out earlier, then it will no longer be a matter of faith,
| because "faith" will no longer be required.  But free will is still
| available, and those who choose to follow Satan into the pit instead of
| staying in the presence of Jesus and worshipping Him in the Holy Trinity
| will be allowed to go to the destruction of their own choosing.

** This point is tough for me on two counts:  "But without faith it is
   impossible to please God"; and Because I love Jesus without seeing, I
   cannot comprehend how anyone could turn away after actually _seeing_ His
   love.  On the other hand, if one were to stand before God with a hardened
   heart, then their heart conceivably could remain hardened.  After all,
   Satan sees God and still rebels.

>Those who reject the N.T. as God's Word now share the destiny of those who
>rejected Jesus Christ in the days of His (and their) flesh.

| This is a very strong statement, similar to decrees issued by the Council
| of Florence that all those, Jew, Heathen, or Heretic, who do not enter into
| the Body of Christ before death will perish in everlasting fire.

** Thank you sincerely for this admonition.  I cannot judge.  Jesus said
   "Judge not, that ye be not judged." (Mt 7:1)  And "Judge not, and ye shall
   be not judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye
   shall be forgiven." (Lu 6:37)  And "Judge not according to the appearance,
   but judge righteous judgment." (Jn 7:24)

   The apostle Paul said "For I know nothing by myself; yet I am not hereby
   justified: but He that judgeth me is the Lord." (1Co 4:4)

   "The Lord shall judge His people." (Heb 10:30b)

   If I were to condemn a Jew for rejecting the N.T., then could I not be
   similarly judged for hearing the Word but not doing?

| There are quite a few participants in this conference who believe that the
| Jews are somehow exempt from this; that they only need to follow the O.T.
| for their salvation.

** "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the
   law, then Christ is dead in vain." (Ga 2:21)

   "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we
   might be justified by faith." (Ga 3:24)

   On the other hand, I could see a faithful Jew keeping the law with a pure
   heart, i.e., not depending on the law per se for salvation, rather obeying
   the Word of God out of love.  I guess that would work. :-)

| How this works has not been fully revealed (at least not to my satisfaction)
| yet.  However, the _results_ of this are as I stated in .0:  All who are
| saved -- all who go to heaven -- come to believe fully in Christ, in his
| salvation, in his full participation in the Holy Trinity.  As a result,
| they are Christians (which does not mean they cease to be Jews).

** In this we agree:  How this works for a Jew to explicitly reject Christ
   and yet be saved has not been fully revealed to my satisfaction.  I am
   satisfied that God sees the heart, though, and imputes the right kind of
   faith He finds there for righteousness.

/Wayne

	Guess I'll go crawl back under my rock.

    * Harry moves over for Bob^3 ;')

Bob,

I've not responded to your note because I went to bed fairly early [for me]
last night and left for church this morning at 9:45 and just got back from
Advent Lessons and Carols about an hour ago, and have lots of things to do
before I can go to sleep tonight.

And the only way I can respond is with what I've said before.  It is not I
who argues that Jews get a special exemption -- I know (because God's Word
says so) they must accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour.

Now as you know very well, almost all of today's Jews are going to go to their
graves believing that "the religion founded by the Nazarene" is a lie.  Since
these people are the children of Abraham, and God is faithful to his covenant
with Abraham, we must hope God will save them.  And I don't think it will be
a "special exemption", which is why I wrote what I wrote in .0 -- that they
will be Christians (and still Jews) when they meet God face to face.

But I agree that we must do everything we can to spread the Gospel of Jesus
now.

Most Jews will react very negatively to the idea of conversion to Christ.
They will call it assimilation.

Most of the world will also react very negatively to the solemn decree of
the Council of Florence that no Jew who fails to enter the Body of Christ
before death will escape the fires of hell.  Christians are being asked to
apologize for the harm that message has done.  I have a good friend who is
furious with me -- not speaking to me except in a rage -- because of what
I said in .0 because she (a Jewish Christian, the only one in her family)
refuses to listen and believes that .0 is the most insulting thing she has
ever heard rather than the Good News of the Gospel -- that her mother will
somehow come to salvation even if she refuses to believe in Christ before
death -- and that this salvation will make her a Christian (while she still
remains one of God's Chosen People).  And now you know the real reason I
started this topic; looking for some way to explain the truth in .0 in a
positive way to someone who is, at least for now, no longer speaking to me.

Of course, I know many faithful descendants of Abraham -- they are Christians
living in the land of Palestine -- the descendants of the first Jewish members
of the Church.  They were assimilated by intermarriage with Arabs and Greeks
but retained their Christianity and are entitled to the land their Father
Abraham was promised, and should be allowed to share it with the other
children of Abraham returning from Europe.

   [Aside: It is _illegal_ in Israel for a Christian to baptize anyone whose
    parents are not Christian.]

But all will believe when He comes again in power and glory to judge the quick
and the dead.  Those who go to the pit will go not because they did not
believe, but because they chose to reject God's free gift even after it was
impossible to fail to believe.

	Lo! he comes, with clouds descending...

	Every eye shall now behold him,
	  Robed in dreadful majesty;
	Those who set at naught and sold him,
	  Pierced, and nailed him to the tree,
	  ||| Deeply wailing, |||
	Shall the true Messiah see.

    ... Thou shalt reign, and thou alone.

/john

>                      <<< Note 830.46 by CUJO::SAMPSON >>>
>             -< hmmm... my comments are not even acknowledged... >-
>
>	Guess I'll go crawl back under my rock.

Hi, don't go crawl back under your rock :-). You said some good things in
your previous note. Not all notes get responses, and also, not everyone 
logs in all the time to see notes as they are written, I didn't read the
last bunch in this string, including your notes until just 5 minutes ago.

Also, I'm not so great with names all the time, could you please sign your
first name at the end of notes?

Thanks,

Leslie

"But though He had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on
Him: That the saying of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake,
Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been
revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Isaiah said again, He
hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with
their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal
them. These things said Isaiah, when he saw His glory, and spake of Him."

"Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on Him; but because of
the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the
synagogue: For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God."

"Jesus cried and said, 'He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on Him
that sent me. And he that seeth me seeth Him that sent me. I am come a light
into the world, that whosover believeth on me should not abide in darkness.  And
if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to
judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not
my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall
judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which
sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
And I know that His commandment is life everlasting; whatsoever I speak
therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak'." (Jn 12:37-50, KJV)

** At least some Jews "could not believe" because "<God> hath blinded their
   eyes, and hardened their heart."  Many chief rulers "believed on Him" but
   "they did not confess Him...for they loved the praise of men more than the
   praise of God."

   Jesus said "Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man
   also confess before the angels of God: But he that denieth me before men
   shall be denied before the angels of God. And whosoever shall speak a word
   against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that
   blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven." (Lu 12:8-10,
   KJV)

   Questions: Were the Jews who believed on Jesus but did not confess Him
              saved?  Scripture seems to imply the hearts of these Jews were
              not blinded/hardened.  Then the question is when and how must
              confession be made.

              Can Jews speak against Jesus without denying Him? If so, then
              "it shall be forgiven him." Perhaps herein lays the saving faith
              of the spiritual Jew quoted by Andrew in note 830.14.

              Is the unpardonable sin rather speaking against God with a
              hardened heart believing that He cannot deliver His children
              from sin, i.e., that He is unable to do what He promised?  Note
              that Jesus said He did not judge the man who heard His words and
              did not believe.  Those who explicitly DENY Jesus on earth will
              be DENIED by Him in heaven.

"What then? Israel hath not obtained that which He seeketh for; but the election
hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (according as it is written, God
hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears
that they should not hear;) unto this day." (Ro 11:7&8, KJV)

"Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root,
but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I
might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou
standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the
natural braches, take heed lest He also spare not thee. Behold therefore the
goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee,
goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut
off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in:
for God is able to graft them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive
tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good
olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted
into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant
of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in
part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so
all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the
Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant
unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the
election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of
God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not obeyed God, yet
have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not
obeyed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath
concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all." (Ro 11:18-
32, KJV)

"For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is
glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech:
And not as MOses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel
could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their
minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in
the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. But even
unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. Nevertheless
when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away." (2Co 3:11-16,
KJV)

"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of
this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of
the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your
servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of
darkness, is He who hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the
knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this
treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and
not of us." (2Co 4:3-7, KJV)

** The following applies to the Jew first (children of promise) and then the
   Gentile (we who are grafted into the tree of Israel):

   "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God,
   to them WHO ARE THE CALLED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE. For whom He did
   foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son,
   that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did
   predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also
   justified: and whom He justifed, them He also glorified. What shall we say
   to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?" (Ro 8:28&29, KJV)

   Just as there will be Gentiles who reject/deny their Savior, there will be
   Jews who reject/deny their Messiah.  But, God has sealed His elect, whether
   Jew or Gentile. "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and
   riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing!"
   (Re 5:12, KJV)

John, of this I am sure: Those who stand before God holy and without blemish
will say "Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto Him that sitteth
upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever." (Re 5:13b, KJV)  The
reedemed of the Lord will _see_ that they have been _delivered_ by Jesus, the
Author and Finisher of their faith!

"For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man
seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we
with patience wait for it." (Ro 8:24&25, KJV)  Does this not characterize the
faithful Jew?

The challenge to me is this: If I say to a spiritual Jew "you have not confessed
Jesus as the Christ of God; therefore, you will die in your sin according to the
Law. Accept Jesus as your Messiah by faith and live.", then could not that Jew
say to me "I hear you say that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior, but I do
not see His righteousness in you.  Why should I accept Jesus who you say is
doing a work in you that I cannot see?"  Bob, this challenge is my response to
what you said in note 830.44.

/Wayne

>John, of this I am sure: Those who stand before God holy and without blemish
>will say "Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto Him that sitteth
>upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever." (Re 5:13b, KJV)  The
>reedemed of the Lord will _see_ that they have been _delivered_ by Jesus, the
>Author and Finisher of their faith!

And this is _exactly_ what I said in .0.

/john

Hi John,

I was interested to read .42 (which I'd generally agree with), particularly
because of certain statements which I'd like to examine. 

� What we as Christians _must_ teach is what is revealed: the only means of
� salvation is accepting Christ Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

Agreed, most wholeheartedly!

� I'll let others explain how Jews who reject Jesus in this life are saved.
� I think they'll base it on the truth that God is faithful to his promises,
� and that the Covenant with Abraham is still valid.  

Elsewhere, we discuss salvation for those who never hear the Name of Jesus.
Here, we're concerned about any possibility of salvation for those who
explicitly reject Jesus, and in particular, Jews who reject Jesus.  I don't 
believe that we have actually discussed that before (is this a first? ;-).

I must emphasise that the Abrahamic covenant as such does _not_ come into 
this.  That was a temporal covenant (and as such, is still valid today);
it does not have an eternal dimension, to gives the Jew any different 
heavenly rank, way in to heaven, etc.

� If it is true that Jews benefit from the salvation brought by Jesus, and
� I believe it is true, and almost every reply prior to yours would seem to
� agree that it is true, even for Jews who refuse to believe in Jesus before
� death, my premise in .0 is also true: anyone who benefits from the salvation
� brought by Jesus _must_ come to accept Him as Lord when they stand before Him.

This makes the big assumption of including or excluding all Jews en masse.  
For Jews, salvation is an personal and individual matter, just as it is 
for gentiles.  Romans 9:6 says that "not all who are descended from Israel 
are Israel".  He goes past Abraham (who had various offspring other than 
Isaac) and Isaac, who had Esau as well as Jacob, to Jacob, who received the 
name Isael, and all of whose sons became the nation of promise; Israel, and 
said "not all of them are true children of God."

Romans 4 stresses that Abraham's righteousness was reckoned to him not 
because of law, but by faith (:13), and that righteousness is similarly 
reckoned to all those who are of the faith of Abraham (ie that quality of 
faith, :16).

But there's no issue about Jews who accept the LORD Jesus before they die, 
to receive salvation in the standard Biblical way!

The problem lies in the grey area of Jews who haven't personally received Jesus 
as LORD before they die:
� even for Jews who refuse to believe in Jesus befor death, my premise in .0 
� is also true: anyone who benefits from the salvation brought by Jesus _must_
� come to accept Him as Lord when they stand before Him.

Simplistically, there is no salvation outside Jesus, and we could draw the 
line there.  However, you have worded this statement significantly 
differently from the original, which said:

� when Jews get to heaven, it would appear that the Bible makes it clear
� that they become Christians. 

Now to you and me, these might mean the same, and look the same, but to a 
Jew, I rather think they would have a very different bite.  In .14 I tried 
to indicate a bit of what I understand the offense of Christainity is to a 
Jew.  To them, I understand, this word means: Hitler; the crusades 
(which slaughtered as many Jews as Moslems, in a totally anti-Christian 
expression of hatred, yet done with the label of 'Christianity'), and an
anti-semitism which spreads unthinkable lies about them even today.  This 
is what they connect with the Name of 'Jesus Christ'.  You will agree 
thath if this is what they are taught about the Name, they haven't met the 
LORD Jesus.  In fact, they have rather been hidden from His true 
person by a demonic falsehood which would apply a cultural faithfulness to
prevent them from meeting the Saviour under that Name.

In this context, I would say that it is possible for there to be 
spiritually minded Jews, with the faith of Abraham, who will recognise 
Jesus as their long awaited Messiah, either on leaving the body, or when He 
returns to earth.  Not just that this is the One Whom they long for, as 
foretold in their Covenant, but also that He is the One Who provided 
the salvation spoken of through Job, for instance.

In that sense, I would see their situation as equivalent to the Old
Testament faithful, and to others who never heard the Name of Jesus,
because the Name they have heard was not about the true Jesus, but an
offensive substitute who would betray them, and God's promises to them. 

So a Jew would be upset to be told that faithfulness leads to them becoming 
a Christian (in their understanding, anti-semitic) in heaven.  They *might*
not be so upset at recognising Jesus as LORD (depending on their specific 
areas of awareness about Him - others will know better here).  BUt if you 
want to really communicate with them, you have to use words which you have
first made sure they understand the same way as you mean them.  Like
'Messiah'.  They might be able to accept (at least without - much -
offense) that in heaven they will realilse that Jesus is the Messiah, 
whose mission to earth was one of love to all mankind, including - and
especially - the Jews, and that antisemitism is alien to true Christianity.

But once a false communication basis has been established, it can be very
hard to change that impression, which goes very deep.

I do hope this helps somehow!  I'll be praying for the friend you mention,
and her mother, that you might be able to reach them with the love of
Jesus, and that the resentment would be melted away. 

					In Jesus' love
							Andrew 

    RE: .51
    
    Oh, okay.  Please forgive my fogginess. :-)
    
    Hopefully, the thinking I went through to be able to state my position
    in a way that you see _exact_ agreement with what you said will be
    helpful to other readers.
    
    What I heard you say was that a person _has_ to become a Christian once
    there (in heaven) because of what is obvious, i.e., that which can be
    seen beyond doubt.  That gave me pause because faith seemed moot, and
    God is not pleased without faith.
    
    However, as I set about trying to reconcile with Scipture the testimony
    of the spiritual Jew quoted by Andrew, particularly researching what
    Jesus actually said about Himself, I began to see the possibility that
    a faithful Jew might exercise faith in being fully persuaded that God
    is able to remove sin/oppression from His people through the Deliverer
    He would send.  The object of the faithful Jew's faith, the hope that
    saves, if you will, is God's Deliverer.  When the faithful Jew's faith
    becomes sight, then faith's object finally seen is Jesus, and, rather
    than being surprised, the faithful Jew will say with us "Blessing, and
    honour, and glory, and power, be unto <God and His Christ> for ever and
    ever."  The faithful Jew stands before God justified by faith, all along
    believing God would deliver.  Faithful Jews will not be saved because
    in heaven they finally see that God has delivered them, rather they
    will be in heaven because they believed (were fully persuaded in this
    earthly life) that God was able to keep His promise.  The promise they
    cannot yet see is Jesus Christ, our Saviour BY FAITH.
    
    Most Jews who cannot believe/accept Christ will be unable to persevere
    in doing good to the glory, honour and immortality of God who called
    them--what I deem obedience from a pure heart--seeking rather glory,
    honour and righteousness for themselves in keeping the Law, the Spirit
    of/in which they cannot see.  Those Jews are lost.
    
    We who have confessed Jesus as the Christ of God, and in whom His Spirit
    dwells, might be the means by which God reveals the Spirit of the Law
    to the Jews' heart, i.e., we were not given the Law yet we obey.  Jews
    most likely will not believe our words, but they very well might see
    their Messiah in our lives.  "For as we in times past have not believed
    God, yet have now obtained mercy through <Israel's> unbelief: Even so
    have <Jews> also now not believed, that through our mercy they may
    obtain mercy." (Ro 11:30&31, KJV)
    
    Bob, have I responded appropriately to your note yet? :-)
    
    /Wayne 

      Just a nit Wayne (and a tangent), but does one have to be "fully
      persuaded" in order to be accounted rightous before God?  Was the
      father of the demoniac fully persuaded when he said (cried), "Lord
      I believe, help Thou mine unbelief!"?
    
      To be fully persuaded seems to me to be the same thing as Abraham
      was when he was ready to offer up Isaac and not what he was when
      God first accounted rightousness to him because of his initial
      faith.
    
    						Tony

    I inferred that from Ro 4:21&22 (one of your favorite passages of
    Scripture).  Verse 21 said Abraham was fully persuaded and verse 22
    said it was therefore imputed to him for righteousness.
    
    Practically, at any point in time, being fully persuaded does NOT mean
    knowing beyond doubt.  To me faith is choosing to act now as if what
    God says is true.  In other words, choosing to obey what God says in
    spite of our doubt.
    
    The demoniac's father was confessing his own doubt while affirming
    Jesus' power.  The father chose not to let his doubt keep him from
    seeking/desiring, even expecting, Jesus' healing.  The demoniac's
    father had seen enough to find hope in petitioning Jesus.
    
    /Wayne

    >Yes, but of what use to Jews is the New Testament, which those who
    
    The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, the New Testament is
    the Old Testament revealed.

	Thanks John, Harry, Wayne, Leslie, for all the acknowledgements!

	BTW, I'm finding this discussion very helpful, and especially
appreciate Wayne's posting of many appropriate Scripture references here,
even if I don't fully understand the challenge presented to me.

	Anyway, this is one topic I've been *reading*, not just skimming.
:-)
							Thanks to all,
							Bob Sampson

      re: .55
    
      Hi Wayne,
    
        My understanding of the passage (Abraham being fully convinced)
        is that it refers to what his faith *became*.
    
        I do not believe Abraham, when he first had faith, was fully 
        convinced that what God said he could perform because implicit 
        in God's word telling Abraham that he would have an heir was that 
        the heir would come via Sarah.  
    
        After Abraham first believed and faith was accounted to him for
        righteousness...
    
        1) He lied to Pharoah saying Sarah was not his wife, but his
           sister.  (Lack of faith in that implicit in an heir being 
           produced is that God would preserve his life.  Abraham was
           fearful for his life.)
    
        2) He went in unto Hagar.  (Lack of faith in that he should 
           have believed that the heir would come through Sarah.  Also
           as Hagar is symbolic of the flesh, lack of faith in that
           he resorts to the flesh rather than the Spirit which Sarah
           symbolizes).
    
        3) After Ishmael was older, he said to God, "Oh that Ishmael
           would live in your sight!"  (Lack of faith in that he can't
           believe the heir can come through Sarah and so he continues to
           want his own attempts be approved by God.)
    
        4) He is given circumcision.  He needs this reminder that the
           flesh profits nothing and must be cut off.
    
    
        Genesis 22 seems to accord with the above.  Because Abraham 
        was willing to offer Isaac, because he obeyed God's voice, God
        says he is a blessing to many nations.  (The blessing is the
        proclamation of the gospel itself - see Galatians 3:8, i.e. Abe's 
        survival of the symbolic three day Mount Moriah experience is 
        validation of the gospel.  The sins God pardons us are the same 
        sins He can cleanse from the heart.)
    
        Though I have other support, I'll let the above suffice as evidence
        for my own view that God first accounted Abraham's faith for right-
        eousness and that faith was not a faith that was fully convinced 
        that what God promised He could perform.
    
        However, God could take that initial faith and cultivate it to
        perfection (see Hebrews 12:1-2).  He could mature it to the point
        that it is fully convinced that what God says He can perform.
    
        When faith is cultivated to such a level, it fully allows the word
        of God to accomplish its work, "Walk before Me and be thou blame-
        less [perfect]."
    
        In other words, redemption is the restoration of the heart from sin
        to God.  God accounts one's initial faith for righteousness on the
        basis that He can perfect that faith.  A perfected faith allows for
        the completion of God's redemptive work - removing sin from the 
        heart - for it allows the word which cleanses the heart to do just
        that, cleanse the heart.
    
        The barrier of unbelief, which Abraham still had for quite awhile
        though he had faith, suppresses the word of God.  Remove this
        barrier, (have a perfected faith), and the word, unimpeded, fully
        accomplished what it says.
    
    							Tony
              

    RE: .59
    
    Hi, Tony.
    
    As I said in .55, being "fully persuaded" in practice to me means the
    will to act as if what God says is true.  Samuel said "Behold, to obey
    is better than sacrifice" (1Sam 15:22).  The end of faith is obedience,
    Christ-likeness, if you will.
    
    Consider the example of Phinehas in Numbers 25.  "Then stood up
    Phinehas, and executed judgment: and so the plague was stayed. And that
    was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations for
    evermore." (Ps 106:30&31, KJV)  This is a rather gruesome story and
    must be examined with discernment.
    
    What did God see in Phinehas?  Why did God here establish His covenant
    of peace, the covenant of an everlasting priesthood?  After all,
    Phinehas killed two people when the Law given through Moses said "Thou
    shalt not kill." (Ex 20:13, KJV)
    
    I think we're in basic agreement:  Our faith need not be perfect in
    order to be imputed by God for our righteousness.  See Harry's
    (untimely?--I think not!) note 14.30643.
    
    /Wayne

    P.S.  Jim, thanks for sharing Dr. Metcalfe's sermon on "God, our Home"
    in note 803.24.  Can there be anything better than God being "at home"
    in us?  Perhaps being eternally "at home" with Him when by faith His
    work in us is perfected! :-)

      Hi Wayne,
    
        Just to highlight an area where we seem in agreement and where we
        perhaps see things differently...
    
      Agreement:
        God imputes fully 100% of His righteousness on an individual when
        that individual first has faith.
    
      Perhaps See Things Differently:
        That first response of faith is not a faith that is fully convinced
        that what God says He can perform or that first faith is a faith
        that is fully convinced that what God said He can perform.  [I
        continue to see things as I do on the basis of my personal under-
        standing that the context refers to a belief that Abraham had 
        well into the future of when he first believed.  (Being fully
        convinced that God could produce an heir through Sarah and that
        He could even raise Isaac from the dead if need be - Mount Moriah
        testimony).]
    
        The underlying reason why God accounts one as righteous.  My view
        being that He can take folks from Point A to Point Z and when a 
        person is at Point Z, he has allowed God to remove all sin from
        the heart (which is salvation).
    
    							Tony

    RE: .61
    
    Hi, Tony.
    
    There must be some point you're trying to make that I don't see because
    I can read your description of how we perhaps see things differently
    and see no substantive difference.
    
    Let me try another tack:  When I was born into this world, I didn't
    know my dad even though I had to have seen him.  I was a baby and my
    mind didn't comprehend the parents my eyes saw and my body felt when
    they held me.  But there came a time when I finally saw my dad as my
    dad, i.e., I understood who we was and that I was his son.  Was he not
    my dad, or I not his son, when I was a baby who hadn't put us together
    in my mind?  I certainly know dad better and differently now, but he
    has always been my dad, not by my will at first, but by his.  He loved
    me before I first (by my own understanding) loved him.  As a baby I had
    faith without sight.  When I grew up, I found out the faith I couldn't
    explain was nonetheless well placed.  In fact, something my dad said
    when we first started discussing/sharing the things of God together was
    "Christianity is wonderful because father and son actually become
    brothers."
    
    Anyway, my view of election and predestination you deemed "too
    high-tech" is all tied up in this.  I obviously am unable to describe
    to your satisfaction what my heart knows as faith, but faith is acting
    like I'm my father's son, even though I may not see him with full
    understanding.
    
    That's about all I can say.
    
    /Wayne

      Hi Wayne,
    
        I'm perfectly confused by how your latest reply was meant to
        bridge some disconnect!
    
        I just thought your view was that the faith described as
        *being fully convinced that what God promised He could perform*
        was that this was Abraham's _initial_ faith.
    
        I offered a different view that it wasn't his initial faith at
        all, but was the faith that was cultivated by God and which he
        had at some future time.
    
        Thats' all!
    
        I think your description in the last reply is wonderful and very
        worthy of consideration, however I do not see that it is what
        scripture alludes to when it speaks of a faith that is fully 
        convinced.
    
        That faith is evidenced by no longer lying to Pharoah, going in
        unto Hagar, or asking God to let Ishmael be heir.  Its a faith 
        that (somehow) finally believes God can produce a child through
        a zillion year old lady, i.e. God can resurrect someone from
        absolute death (a miserable state of sinfulness) fully to life
        (complete sinlessness).
    
        So I guess we do see very much eye to eye.  The question is,
        "What kind of faith is God talking about when He refers to a
        faith that is 'fully convinced'?"
    
        I believe context shows that it is the faith Abraham had while
        going up Mount Moriah and not the faith he had while going in unto
        Hagar.  He had faith at that time, but it was not matured.  He
        doubted.  He resorted to flesh and Spirit.  On Mount Moriah, it
        was all Spirit.
    
    							Tony

    RE: .63
    
    Hi, Tony.
    
    I regret that you do not see the connection in my example.  I can think
    of no other way to say things, except, of course, I just parrot your
    own words back to you. :-)  If we do not speak the same words, then
    perhaps there remains Truth to be gleaned by both of us.
    
    Part of what I meant to say was that our Father's faithfulness is more
    important than our faith.  I had faith in my dad before I could even
    think about defining it.  As I grew to know dad better, I became more
    convinced that he could do things he said, particularly as he made
    promises and kept them and demonstrated his love in other ways.  At any
    point in time during my development, I was fully persuaded that my dad
    was my father, that he was my mother's faithful husband, and that he
    could do what he said he would do as far as I was concerned.
    
    If you don't see how I "see" faith growing from faith, being perfected,
    if you will, in the analogy I gave, then please forgive my poor choice
    of words and/or example.  I'm at a loss.  Nothing else comes
    immediately to mind.
    
    Again, I "see" faith as choosing to act as if God is God and able to do
    what He says.  The faith Abraham had when "he believed in the Lord; and
    He counted it to him for righteousness" (Genesis 15:6, KJV) certainly
    led him to the point where "when he had offered Isaac his son upon the
    altar" (James 2:21-23, KJV) his action showed his faith made perfect.
    
    Our shared understanding is now in the hands of the Spirit of the
    Living God and in our beholding His Son, our Lord and Savior.
    
    I see nothing in your note with which to disagree.  We have used
    different words to reflect our own personal spiritual reality.  Final
    proof remains to the student and Teacher. :-)
    
    /Wayne

      Hi Wayne,
    
        Its really not a big deal to me, but let me try to explain
        where I'm coming from...
    
        I understand the faith analogy you use with the child and
        his father and agree with such a faith as being valid. 
    
        I just happen to disagree that this is the type of faith
        referred to in the scripture that alludes to "fully convinced."
    
        Thats all.
    
        For me, its not a question of understanding what you mean by
        faith under certain circumstances.  Its a question of whether
        or not the status of this faith you describe is that same status
        described by the biblical record when it refers to that faith
        Abraham had when he was fully convinced that what God promised
        He was able to perform.
    
        Is this an assertion you tried to make?  (I.e. that the child's
        faith equates to that faith described in the Bible as "fully
        convinced"?)
    
        So, I think I understand the faith as you describe it, the 
        disconnect I have (and I know I am repeating myself) is if I
        understand you right, you are taking this 'child analogy' 
        referring it to Abraham's initial faith, **AND** referring it
        to the faith described as "being fully convinced" and saying they
        are all talking about the same thing.
    
        My view is that they are not and my defense of my view is the
        biblical record of the life of Abraham.  The thing Abraham was
        described as being fully convinced about was God's ability to
        do something impossible by any human standard - produce a baby
        through a woman past the age.
    
        I look at the life of Abraham and, at the beginning of his faith,
        conclude, "Abraham was not fully convinced of that word of God."
        I look at the end of his faith and conclude, "Abraham is now
        fully convinced that what God says, He can perform."  I then
        conclude...
    
        1) His initial faith was not the faith described as "fully
           convinced" *as the context of the Bible applies the term*
           (which then is the final authority for me).
    
        2) His final faith was the faith described as "fully convinced."
    
        Am I making sense Wayne?
    
        Am I correct in supposing that your view is that the Bible's
        referral to a faith that is "fully convinced" is to Abraham's
        *initial* faith? Or am I wrong about that?
    
    							Tony
                                               

    RE: .65
    
    I believe we are both looking at the life of Abraham.
    
    "Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out...So Abram departed, as
    the Lord had spoken unto him." (Gen 12:1a,4a)
    
    "After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram...And he
    believed in the Lord; and He counted it to him for righteousness."
    (Gen 15:1a,6)
    
    You say that the basis for God's counting Abram's faith to him for
    righteousness was that God saw the end result of Abraham's faith, i.e.,
    that Abraham was "fully persuaded that, what <God> had promised, He was
    able also to perform" (Ro 4:21, KJV) to the end that he offered Isaac
    on the altar in Genesis 22.  ** I DO NOT DISAGREE! **
    
    The Lord said (through an angel) "...in thy seed shall all the nations
    of the earth be blessed; BECAUSE THOU HAST OBEYED MY VOICE."
    (Gen 22:15-18)  My point you failed to mention is that the faith God
    counts to us for righteousness leads to obedience.  In other words, we
    act like our Father's children.  Do you not agree?
    
    Was Abraham himself perfect after Genesis 22?  He took another wife
    after Sarah died.  Was Keturah who bore other sons a Canaanite?  Or was
    she taken from his kindred as Abraham insisted for Isaac?  Anyway, if
    Abraham were perfect, then why must he have died and been buried with
    Sarah?  If Abraham were perfect in his earthly life, the Bible does not
    say.  What we do know is that Abraham's faith was imputed to him by God
    for righteousness, and we know how that faith was manifested.
    
    My conclusion is that we need not be (or see ourselves as) sinlessly
    perfect (in this earthly life) in order for God to justify us; therefore,
    we who believe in the Christ of God by faith (leading to obedience) are
    justified, and that which we do by God's grace out of Love (agape) is
    counted to us for righteousness along the way.  "...Christ liveth in me:
    and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son
    of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me. I do not frustrate the
    grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead
    in vain." (Ga 2:20&21, KJV)
    
    /Wayne
    
    EVEN GOOD WORKS (as we look on the outward appearance) DONE OUTSIDE THE
    CONTEXT OF GOD'S PROVISION (as He looks on the heart) ARE OF NO VALUE.
    
    I think we're in agreement unless you're making a point I as yet fail
    to see.

      Hi Wayne,
    
        Given your last reply where you refer to the end of Abe's faith,
        I don't know that we ever disagreed!  I guess I *thought* we
        disagreed because I thought you were trying to point something
        out to me I was missing or something!
    
        Two points of seeing things differently, but not the thing we
        were hashing about here.
    
      1)I don't believe anyone fully acts like a son of God unless their
        faith is perfected.
    
      2)(And I think you know this.)  My position is that the reason why
        God accounts one righteous when one first has faith is because He
        can perfect that faith.  And the reason this is so is because 
        when one's faith is perfected, God is allowed to fully save a
        person - fully cleanse their hearts from sin.
    
        To put another way, the only basis for Jesus' shed blood covering
        a person is that the same blood which covers is the same blood
        that can cleanse.  (Blood equals revelation/see John 6:53,63.)
    
    							Tony

RE: .67

I said I was done and I am! :-)

I just wanted to affirm the truth you've shared:
    
|       Two points of seeing things differently, but not the thing we
|       were hashing about here.

** We perhaps see things differently, but as far as I can tell, we're looking
   at the same person, Jesus Christ, the Author and Finisher of our faith.
    
|     1)I don't believe anyone fully acts like a son of God unless their
|       faith is perfected.

** Jesus is the Son of God.  He lived without sin and obeyed even to death on
   the cross.  He became our sin that we might become His righteousness.  We
   cannot "fully act like a son of God" until our "faith is perfected."  That,
   after all, is why Jesus came and lived, and died and was raised from the
   dead--to deliver us from sin and death unto righteousness and life.  When
   He appears, we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is.

   Key words here are "fully" and "perfected".  In the meantime, the Holy
   Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are God's children and bears
   fruit in our lives to evidence that we are being perfected.
    
|     2)(And I think you know this.)  My position is that the reason why
|       God accounts one righteous when one first has faith is because He
|       can perfect that faith.  And the reason this is so is because 
|       when one's faith is perfected, God is allowed to fully save a
|       person - fully cleanse their hearts from sin.

** Amen!  God can justify because He is able to accomplish His work (cleansing
   the heart from sin) in those who live by faith.
    
|       To put another way, the only basis for Jesus' shed blood covering
|       a person is that the same blood which covers is the same blood
|       that can cleanse.  (Blood equals revelation/see John 6:53,63.)

** Amen!  Those whose sins are covered in Jesus Christ are those whose hearts
   are (being) cleansed from sin by the Spirit and the Word.

And the angel of the Lord said "Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take
unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is begotten in her is of the Holy
Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call His name JESUS: for
He shall save His people from their sins." (Mt 1:20&21, KJV)

And the angel said unto <the shepherds keeping the night watches over their
flock> "Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which
shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a
Saviour, which is Christ the Lord." (Lu 2:10&11, KJV)

His people--that includes us, Tony!

/Wayne

    Hi Tony and Wayne -
    
    I've been studying Romans and Hebrews quite a bit, its all related
    to this.  I'll continue back in note 795.
    
    Jill
    

      Hi Jill,
    
        Oh goody!!  I can hardly wait!
    
      Hi Wayne,
    
        What an excellent final reply!  I dare not add to it!
    
    						Tony

    Yahoo!!
    
    "For we know that every creature groaneth and travaileth in pain
    together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have
    the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within
    ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our
    body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for
    what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we
    see not, then do we with patience wait for it. Likewise the Spirit also
    helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we
    ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings
    which cannot be uttered. And He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what
    is the mind of the Spirit, that He maketh intercession for the saints
    according to the will of God." (Ro 8:22-27, KJV)
    
    We yearn and groan (and discuss and debate) to be (perfect) like/with
    Him.
    
    Are we one big happy family, or what?! :-)
    
    /Wayne
    
    P.S. Food for thought in the season of Advent: "And the Word was made
    flesh and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the
    only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (Jn 1:14, KJV)
    
    "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every
    one that loveth Him that begat loveth Him also that is begotten of
    Him." (1Jn 5:1, KJV)
    
    "Herein is love with us made perfect, that we may have boldness in the
    day of judgment: because as He is, so are we in this world." (1Jn 4:17,
    KJV)
    
    I've heard being born again described as "Christmas happened in my
    heart!"  God's seed begat Christ.  By faith God's seed begets Christ in
    us.  "And Jesus grew in wisdom and STATURE, and in favour with God and
    man." (Lu 2:52, KJV)
    
    Let us "come into the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the
    Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the STATURE of the
    fulness of Christ." (Ep 4:13, KJV)

      Wayne, 
    
        Its pretty hard to read those sequences of scriptures and
        not get smoked!  (Not that I wouldn't want to get smoked
        anyway!)
    
        Its overwhelming the things God has in store for us.  Such
        revelations of His love for us that when we see will just
        prostrate us before Him.  He is that good!
    
    						Tony