| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 827.1 | Perhaps My Favorite | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Tue Nov 21 1995 14:41 | 45 |
| Hi,
I believe the Bible clearly refers to God's ability to
perfectly cleanse the heart several times in the scriptures.
Perhaps my favorite verse which I believe supports the idea
that God can produce sinlessness in people this side of the
2nd coming is
Hebrews 12:1-2
Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud
of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which
so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race
that is set before us,
looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher [margin: perfecter]
of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured
the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right
hand of the throne of God.
First, the scripture is in the book of Hebrews which is one
continuous exhortation for a corporate resting in Christ - and a
rest that has yet to take place. The whole theme of the book
includes some awesome (and I believe apocalyptic) experience.
Second, it alludes to laying aside EVERY weight.
Third, it refers to Jesus as the perfecter of our faith and Hebrews
had referred to faith as the substance of things *hoped for*, the
evidence of things *not seen*. (In heaven, we will experience the
hope and see what we now do not. In other words, in a significant
sense, faith is used to describe our response to what is yet unseen
and thus is relevent to pre-2nd coming.)
Finally, if Jesus can perfect our faith, it follows that we then
believe that everything God says, He can accomplish (which is why
Abrahams's initial and imperfect faith was accounted to him for
righteousness in the 1st place - see Romans 4:20-22).
To summarize, Jesus can perfect our faith. The relevence of this
work is pre-2nd coming. One with perfected faith is absolutely
convinced that what Jesus says, He can perform. Jesus calls us
to obedience. We are thus, when our faith is perfected, allowing
God to make us perfect obeyers.
Tony
|
| 827.2 | | PAULKM::WEISS | For I am determined to know nothing, except... | Tue Nov 21 1995 16:07 | 16 |
| Sorry, Tony, I'm not with you on this one. I don't think perfection will be
reached as long as we are still in this 'body of death.'
Just looking at the 'cloud of witnesses,' the people that the writer of
Hebrews holds up as pillars of the faith. There's not a one of them that
didn't fall and sin, some badly. The point was that for each of them, their
heart was turned to the Lord, and they persevered through doubts and
difficulties.
If we seek to persevere throught doubts and difficulties, holding fast to the
Lord though the storm rages all about, then we'll have done well. We can
*aspire* to perfection, but if we hold it as a standard by which we'll judge
ourselves as failures if we don't reach, then every one of us (and every
Biblical character other than the Lord, and every saint since then) will fail.
Paul
|
| 827.3 | | BIGQ::SILVA | Diablo | Tue Nov 21 1995 16:15 | 4 |
|
Tony, if we are all sinners, then we can never reach perfection on this
earth.
|
| 827.4 | | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Tue Nov 21 1995 16:43 | 8 |
| 1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not
yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, [1] we shall be
like him, for we shall see him as he is.
Jill2
|
| 827.5 | RE: .0 You asked what I think. :-) | ROCK::PARKER | | Tue Nov 21 1995 19:09 | 95 |
| | Is it possible?
** Yes. The apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 1:3-9 (KJV) "Grace be unto you,
and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank God
always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus
Christ; that in every thing ye are enriched by Him, in all utterance, and in
all knowledge; even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: so that
ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus
Christ: who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in
the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom ye were called
unto the fellowship of His Son Jesus Christ our Lord."
By faith we reckon God has already accomplished what He said He will do "For
we walk by faith, not by sight." (2 Corinthians 5:7, KJV) "For we are SAVED
BY HOPE: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth
he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with
patience wait for it." (Romans 8:24,25, KJV) "Now faith is the confidence
of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen...But without faith it
is IMPOSSIBLE to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He
is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him." (Hebrews
12:1,6, KJV)
"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord
Jesus Christ: by whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein
we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only so, but we
glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; and
patience, experience; and experience hope: and hope maketh not ashamed;
because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which
is given unto us. For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ
died for the ungodly." (Romans 5:1-6, KJV)
| Is it prophesied?
** Yes. "And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within
you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them
an heart of flesh: that they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine
ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their
God." (Ezekiel 11:19,20, KJV) "After those days, saith the Lord, I will
put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be
their God, and they shall be my people." (Jeremiah 31:33b, KJV)
| Is it something God just 'decides' to produce when He wants to?
** Yes. "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His
good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13, KJV) "And we know that all things work
together for good to them that love God, to them WHO ARE THE CALLED
ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE. For whom He did foreknow, He also did
predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the
firstborn among MANY brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He
also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He
justified, them He also glorified." (Romans 8:28-30, KJV)
| Can we delay God's production of character perfection?
** Yes and no. "And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby YE ARE
SEALED UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION." (Ephesians 4:30, KJV) Apparently, we
can be less than cooperative, but "Being confident of this very thing, that
He which hath begun a good work in you will finish it until the day of Jesus
Christ." (Philippians 1:6, KJV) "What shall we say to these things? If
God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not His own Son, but
delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us
all things?" (Romans 8:31,32, KJV)
I would argue that those who would want to delay their perfection are not
children of God. "And every man that hath this hope in Him purifieth
himself, even as He is pure." (1 John 3:3, KJV)
| Is there a corporate application?
** Yes. The apostle Paul said in Ephesians 5:25-27 (KJV) "Husbands, love your
wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave Himself for it; that
He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that
He might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or
wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."
| What do you think?
** "I know that, when He shall appear, I shall be like Him; for I shall see Him
as He is." (1 John 3:2b, KJV)
I don't think there need be a sinlessly perfect group of people in this
life before Jesus can come again. I do think that when Jesus comes again
His church will holy and blameless before God for all in heaven and earth
to see.
Again, I do not say that God cannot make a people sinlessly perfect before
Jesus comes again. I do say that He need not make a people sinlessly
perfect (according to our sight) before Jesus can come again.
Bottom-line: Just because I cannot yet "see" with my physical eyes all
that God is doing does not mean God is not in fact doing what He said He
would do. "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to
faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." (Romans 1:17, KJV)
/Wayne
|
| 827.6 | "Something Better" | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Wed Nov 22 1995 12:39 | 93 |
| Re: Note 827.2
Hi Paul,
>Sorry, Tony, I'm not with you on this one. I don't think perfection will be
>reached as long as we are still in this 'body of death.'
But, doesn't Paul tell us that where sin abounds, grace does much more
abound? What is a stronger motivation? Our "body of sin and death" or
the love of Christ? Given that the purpose of the cross is to transform
us from living for ourselves to living for Christ (2 Corin 5:13-15), do
we not 'make the cross of less effect' if we maintain that it cannot
*perfectly* transform us from living for ourselves to living for God?
>Just looking at the 'cloud of witnesses,' the people that the writer of
>Hebrews holds up as pillars of the faith. There's not a one of them that
>didn't fall and sin, some badly. The point was that for each of them, their
>heart was turned to the Lord, and they persevered through doubts and
>difficulties.
Paul, consider how Ch. 11 ends!
Hebrews 11:39-12:2
And all these [the people you refer to], having obtained a good testimony
through faith, did not receive the promise,
God having provided *something better* for us, that they should not be made
perfect apart from us.
Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses,
let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and
let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher [margin: perfecter] of our faith,
who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the
shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
I believe the "us" in verse 11:40 (where it says "for us") is the last
generation. It could have been that generation which included the initial
hearers of this letter to the Hebrews. Regardless, "something better" is
provided for the "for us."
The question then is, what is that "something better"? It would seem to
follow, in consideration of the entire theme of Hebrews, that the "something
better" is...
entering completely in His rest
going completely behind the veil with our Forerunner
going on to perfection and partaking of solid food
reaching the summit of Mount Zion
beholding very image (which produces the characteristic of no longer
remembering sin).
And of course, these are all saying the same thing. All those people
obtained a good report. Some group obtains a better one. All Christians
begin to ascend Mount Zion, one group reaches the summit "where everything
that can be shaken will be shaken." For all Christians, what is seen
progressively becomes less 'shadowy' and closer to 'very image.' For this
group, what eventually is seen is completely 'unshadowy' and is 'very image.'
>but if we hold it as a standard
Yes, it is the standard for we are to behold Christ and Him only and He
*is* perfect and by beholding we become changed from image to image.
>by which we'll judge ourselves as failures if we don't reach, then every
>one of us (and every Biblical character other than the Lord, and every saint
>since then) will fail.
Paul, on what basis did you make the following connection:
If -
God can perfect a people
It necessarily follows that -
we must judge ourselves failures if we don't reach the standard???
One in no way needs to imply the other!
In fact, perfection can only be attained if self is not beheld at all! All
that a perfected group could be beholding is Christ 100%. There is no
looking to self with this group - only looking to Christ.
In fact, I believe its just one of many paradoxes that the closer we become
like Christ, the less righteous we feel ourselves to be. Looking to self
can never be the prescription and if God can perfect a people, it *must*
imply that self need not be looked upon and in fact self *cannot* be looked
upon!
Tony
|
| 827.7 | "Let This Mind Be In You..." | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Wed Nov 22 1995 13:49 | 42 |
| Re: Note 827.4
Hi Jill,
1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not
yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, [1] we shall be
like him, for we shall see him as he is.
Excellent text and one that has more than one application. The second
coming of Christ is an obvious application. Perhaps less obvious is the
coming of Christ that is His coming in the heart. While being less obvious,
it is this second one which I believe is the one God is most glorified in
and (thus) which is really the more significant.
Hosea 6:1-3 is an exhortation for a group to return to the Lord. "Come,
LET US return unto the Lord!" It then refers to God's going forth as
the morning and as the rain. Deuteronomy 32 equates the rain to doctrine
and teaching.
My point is that I can see people supporting the idea that we become like
Him at the time of the 2nd coming of Christ for we then see Him as He is.
However, I suggest that a group sees Him as He is prior to the second coming
and Jesus comes physically after His remnant already has come to see Him as
He is.
This would jive real well with the slew of texts that refer to beholding
Jesus from "image to image". The connotation being that it is a progressive
process and is one dealing with righteousness by faith. That is, the ongoing
maturing of a Christian's character as he progressively beholds, in fuller
and clearer lines, the goodness of God and is changed more and more into
that same character. "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ
Jesus."
(An EXCELLENT perfection text by the way. What could be clearer??!)
This 'letting' is a progressive experience. And must be an experience of
Christ 'coming' into the heart more and more. It is this 'letting' which
is the one that pertains to the change of heart and thus it is this one
which is the fuller application of 1 John 3:2.
Tony
|
| 827.8 | | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Wed Nov 22 1995 16:13 | 25 |
| re: 827.7
Hi Tony -
You say:
>1 John 3:2
>But we know that when he appears, [1] we shall be
>like him, for we shall see him as he is.
>
>My point is that I can see people supporting the idea that we become
>like Him at the time of the 2nd coming of Christ for we then see Him
>as He is. However, I suggest that a group sees Him as He is prior to
>the second coming and Jesus comes physically after His remnant already
>has come to see Him as He is.
I say to take it another step farther and quoting from Wayne's
795.348 note on Hebrews 3-4:
We are to enter into God's rest Today!
(Hi Wayne!)
Jill2
|
| 827.9 | An Instantaneous 'Full Entering' Lacks Biblical Precedence | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Wed Nov 22 1995 16:30 | 57 |
| Hi Jill,
I don't presently have the time to cover Wayne's reply, but
my summary response to you is that people (somehow) are not
willing to receive all of Christ at conversion or shortly
thereafter. There is a lot of unbelief to be rooted out
and sanctification is a gradual and progressive experience.
Proverbs says that the path of the just is a shining light
that shines brighter and brighter unto the perfect day.
(Brighter and brighter...not an instantaneous "I shall now
perfectly enter His rest and be teleported into that total
brightness!" Look at Hosea. Like rain. Look at Deuteronomy
32. First the dew than rain, than showers, than (Ezra 10)
a torrent!
Abraham is a faith example (and a fitting one in terms of
typical). His life's experience is one of "Lord I believe,
help Thou mine unbelief." After Abraham believes and it is
accounted to him for righteousness, he has Sarah masquerade
as his sister and not his wife. He goes in unto Hagar. He
disbelieves God can produce a child through Sarah and exclaims,
"Oh that Ishmael lived within your sight!" (something like that).
Again, he blows it in Egypt. Years and years go by between the
time of his first coming to faith and his preparation for the
three day experience.
Even Moses required years of preparation and still hit that rock
with his staff.
Your assertion, while sounding ideal, does not seem to fit well
with the 'faith prototypes' God has given us. It seems He knows
that we are typically slow learners and we sometimes falter along
the way.
Perhaps you can show me a person in the Bible who upon conversion
attained to perfect rest, but I sincerely doubt it.
Another component is the availability of light. If Elijah is
prophetic of a last day experience (and he is for it is his word
that brings in the latter rain), there is a spiritual drought out
there. Its hard to respond powerfully when revelations of the
cross are so shadowy.
I believe that as people reflect the cross to greater fulness,
others who 'take in' that revelation will enter more fully into
that rest for they will have been blessed with fuller revelation
to gaze upon.
Yes, we are called to enter His rest today, but the totality of
the scriptural account seems to tell us that the process is not
an instantaneous one. However, if we heed that exhortation, I
believe the fulness of that rest will be entered into sooner than
if we are largely neglectful of it!
Tony
|
| 827.10 | What is by faith and what is by sight? | ROCK::PARKER | | Wed Nov 22 1995 16:50 | 79 |
| RE: .1, .3, .6, .8 (hi, Jill2!) and .9
Let me preface my comments with the acknowledgement that I've seen few people
with Tony Barbieri's burning desire to be Holy as/because God is Holy. He is a
highly motivated/motivating brother in Christ. I do not present the following
thoughts to speak against Tony's opinion, but rather to share my (very personal)
sense of "the peace of God, which passeth all understanding." (see Philippians
4:4-9). That said:
1) I think Tony holds that a group of people must/will see Jesus as He is (the
full revelation/light of God's Word) to become sinlessly perfect before He
comes again.
I hold that a group of people need not be perceived (by sight) as sinless-
ly perfect before Jesus comes again. I believe we who abide in Christ and
in whom Christ abides (by faith) can reckon ourselves perfect (dead unto
sin and alive unto God) because God has predestined our Christ-likeness.
In other words, I do not need to see/feel the absence of sin in my flesh
in order to be convinced that I will be made perfect. "Wayne, let your-
self not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And
hereby you know that you are of the truth, and shall assure your heart
before Him. For if your heart condemn you, God is greater than your
heart, and knoweth all things. Beloved, if your heart condemn you not,
then have you confidence toward God." (The Holy Spirit's word to me
through 1 John 3:18-21, KJV) Furthermore, I do not need to convince
anyone else that I'm (being made) perfect in order to be convinced myself.
Of course, God's Word is clear about there being outward evidence of inner
reality, unrighteousness bearing fruit unto death and righteousness bearing
fruit unto life.
2) I think Tony holds that a group of people must/will go "behind the veil"
with Jesus to be made perfect.
I hold that the veil is gone. "And THE VEIL OF THE TEMPLE WAS RENT IN
TWAIN from the top to the bottom." (Mark 15:38, KJV) "Seeing then that we
have such hope, we use great boldness of speech: and not as Moses, which
put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stead-
fastly look to the end of that which is abolished: but their minds were
blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the
reading of the old testament; WHICH VEIL IS DONE AWAY IN CHRIST. But even
unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. Never-
theless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away. Now
the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is
LIBERTY. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of
the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by
the Spirit of the Lord." (2 Corinthians 3:12-18, KJV)
"...we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay
hold upon the hope set before us: which hope we have as an anchor of the
soul, both sure and steadfast, and which entereth into that within the
veil; whither THE FORERUNNER IS FOR US ENTERED, even Jesus..." (Hebrews
6:18b-20a, KJV) "Having therefore, brethren, LIBERTY to enter into the
holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way, which He hath
consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, His flesh; and
having an high priest over the house of God; let us DRAW NEAR WITH A TRUE
HEART IN FULL ASSURANCE OF FAITH, having our hearts sprinkled from an
evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast
the profession of our faith without wavering; (for He is faithful that
promised;) and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to
good works: not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the
manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so such the more, as ye
see the day approaching." (Hebrews 10:19-25, KJV)
Herein lays the truth of Bob's and Daryl's message (in topic 795), i.e.,
our hearts made new by the Holy Spirit. My difficulty in hearing what they
said was that I saw/felt little, if any, identification with my struggle
in the flesh to put off sin and put on righteousness, i.e., they came
across as themselves never sinning. In Jesus who bore my sin I clearly
see/feel identification with my pain in the flesh, yet without sin of His
own.
Bottom-line: That which we yet do not see (by sight) already is (by faith). I
say this while seeing myself a sinner saved by Grace. I suffer, "nevertheless
I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have trusted, and am persuaded that He is
able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day." (2 Timothy
1:12, KJV)
/Wayne
|
| 827.11 | We all shall be changed. | ROCK::PARKER | | Wed Nov 22 1995 17:33 | 44 |
| RE: .9
Hi, Tony.
Did I say our perfection is instantaneous?
Scripture seems to clearly indicate that our sanctification is a
process. I wholeheartedly agree that progressive revelation is the
means by which we are delivered from the power of sin (habitual
sinning) toward the hope of glory wherein sin is no longer present.
On the other hand, what of those who die before seeing their sinless
perfection effected on earth?
"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the
image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood
cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit
incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep,
but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be
raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible
must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So
when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal
shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying
that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is
thy sting? O grave, where is they victory? The sting of death is sin;
and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth
us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved
brethren, be ye steadfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of
the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the
Lord." (1 Corinthians 15:49-58, KJV)
"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also
which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him. For this we say unto you
by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the
coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the
Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of
the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall
rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up
together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so
shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with
these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:14-18, KJV)
/Wayne
|
| 827.12 | Basis For Being Declared Righteous part 1 (1 of 3) | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Wed Nov 22 1995 18:39 | 54 |
| re: .11
Hi Wayne,
Thanks much for the kind words. I likewise feel the same toward
you and I deeply appreciate the thoughtfulness of your replies
as well as how scripturally based they are.
I am (presently) 'stuck' in Fab 6 with no Bible handy, but here
is a summary.
Yes, I believe God must perfect a people and (as such) there is
a reason for this. Everything He does has a purpose.
First, I never said that you said our perfection is instantaneous.
I was replying to Jill of whom I thought implied this by saying we
can enter His rest today.
I have two main things to mention.
First, is the basis for Abraham's right standing before God. It
can be found in Romans 4. Abe was accounted righteous on one basis
only. That basis was what Abe's faith became. Abe became FULLY
convinced that what God said He could perform and THEREFORE *IT*
[faith] was accounted to him for righteousness.
When Abe's faith was first accounted to Abe for righteousness, Abe
WAS NOT fully convinced that what God said, He could perform. If
he was, then he would not have had Sarah masquerade as someone
other than his wife, he would not have went in unto Hagar, he would
not have pleaded for Ishmael (dependance on the flesh) to be the
heir, etc.
Above and beyond this, the analogy to Abe being declared righteous
is Abe being declared the father of many nations. In both Genesis
and Romans 4, Abe is both said *to already be* [past tense] the
father of many nations and also said he *would become* [future
tense] the father of many nations.
In even further addition to this, God is described as calling those
things which do not exist as though they did.
Here is a THREEFOLD scriptural testimony that God is calling some-
one something that he is not (as though he is)!!!
1) Abe really was not righteous.
2) The example given as an analogy...Abe really was not the father
of many nations (when God said he was).
3) God is described as One who calls things that do not exist as
though they did.
I'll continue...
|
| 827.13 | Basis for Being Declared Righteous part 2 (2 of 3) | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Wed Nov 22 1995 18:40 | 44 |
| Continuing on...
Please excuse me if I am wrong, but my understanding of your view
is in contradiction to the basis for why it is God calls us right-
eous/perfect/sanctified/etc.
Your basis seems to me to be that He is calling us this thing
because we are this thing.
Not so with our sacriptural example (Abraham).
The truth is, God calls us righteous and sanctified and perfect
because he calls us things that do not exist as though they did.
Why?
Because He can eventually cultivate in us a faith that becomes
fully convinced that what God says, He can perform.
Excuse the caps, but this is so very important!!!
AND WHEN GOD HAS SUCH A FAITHFUL PERSON, THE WORD THAT DECLARES
THAT PERSON RIGHTEOUS IS THE SAME WORD THAT MAKES HIM RIGHTEOUS
AND THAT WORD IS NOT SUPPRESSED BY THE ONLY THING THAT CAN
SUPPRESS IT - OUR UNBELIEF.
The cross is the word. It is the unveiled revelation of the cross
that perfects and it will take a cup's worth to perform the total
work. It will take the drinking of the cup and the baptism that
He was baptized with that will be sufficient revelation to perfect
the heart.
Scripture tells us we already are clean and righteous and
sanctified and perfect, etc. It also exhorts us to BE righteous
and to BE sanctified and to BE perfected. I suppose there is more
than one way to harmonize this seeming quandary. I propose that
what I have laid out in the above is the scriptural harmony, i.e.
we are not righteous. We are being made righteous and are called
righteous on the basis that God can perfect our faith.
Yes, it may be interrupted by death and (as such), God will have
a last generation THAT VALIDATES THE BASIS.
I'll continue...
|
| 827.14 | Revelation Given Does Not Equal Revelation Partaken Of | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Wed Nov 22 1995 18:41 | 40 |
| Continuing on...
The second thing I wanted to mention to you is what I see as a
flawed line of reasoning. And that is that if we have been given
something we have received it.
As an analogy, lets say that God have us the sun. He tells us
that it is our joy to enter into the center of the sun. Lets
say this is possible, but it takes preparation. Lets say further
that He proves it is possible by having a Forerunner enter into the
sun before us; one who blazed that path. A Forerunner behind the
veil so to speak.
On what basis is it necessitated that because we have been given
free access to revelation, we have *received* (seen) it???
Just because I have been given the revelation of the sun as a free
gift does not in any way imply that when I was given it, I was
prepared to drink all that revelation in!
I'm not ready for that cup. I'm not ready to be baptized by fire!
Correct me if I am wrong, but I see a faulty train of logic that
says any revelation freely given to us is (on that basis)
revelation we are immediately fully prepared to partake of.
God may give me the sun for the purpose of basking in the midst of
this.
But, that in no way implies I am (at that time) prepared to enter
into the midst of it.
Actually, I believe this is a very good analogy. Especially as it
is the mirror (= the law = agape) that exposes all the sin we are
capable of.
To go behind the veil with sinful flesh equates to going to the
cross with Christ.
Tony
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| 827.15 | Accidental Deletion | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Wed Nov 22 1995 18:45 | 5 |
| Excuse me, but I accidentally deleted the base not (.0) when I
meant to delete what was .11 (due to .11's length which I sparsed
into three separate replies).
Tony
|
| 827.16 | Again, what is by faith and what is by sight? | ROCK::PARKER | | Wed Nov 22 1995 19:38 | 34 |
| RE: .13
Yes, your understanding of my view is wrong. I believe my view is
entirely consistent with the basis for God's calling Abraham righteous.
I said we "(by faith) can reckon ourselves perfect (dead unto sin and
alive unto God) because God has predestined our Christ-likeness." In
other words, from God's perspective, we are what He has promised we
will be. I cannot yet see what God has prepared for me, but I can by
faith act as though His Word true, i.e., He will do as He has promised.
My basis is that He is calling us perfect because we will be (made by
Him) perfect.
On your second point, did I say that to be given something implies
having received it? I meant to say that we have been given all things
in Christ and by faith we can claim them until the day our faith
becomes sight.
I encourage you and any other reader to carefully examine how I posed
faith versus sight.
Regarding your assertion that my logic is faulty, I as a rational and
thoughtful person--yea verily, an engineer--might take offense. :-)
However, I would not seek to persuade you or anyone else by virtue of
my logic. Rather, I would point you to the Word of God from which my
thinking derived and let the Holy Spirit lead you into truth. If my
logic is helpful, then praise God. If my conclusions are in error,
then by all means dismiss them as false. With/in our hearts we believe
unto salvation. As we believe, so be it unto us!
All I ask is that you carefully read what I said because I hold studied
opinions, same as you.
/Wayne
|
| 827.17 | 3 stages of sanctification | OUTSRC::HEISER | watchman on the wall | Wed Nov 22 1995 19:56 | 4 |
| Wayne, you put so well what Mark Metcalfe and I have been trying to
tell Tony for years.
Mike
|
| 827.18 | For Wayne/Mike | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Mon Nov 27 1995 09:23 | 36 |
| Hi Wayne,
After reading .16, I think we agree on the points I brought
up.
Hi Mike,
I don't understand your reply. As you know, I do not believe
there is any condemnation outside what is inherent to sin. Or
to put another way, I do not see how it is that God condemns.
(I only see that sin condemns.)
All that Wayne has shared so far finds perfect harmony with how
I understand things and does not seem (to me) to require the idea
that Christ had to die for any other reason than to change the
heart.
I believe the cross had one purpose and one purpose only. It is
the revelation of the cross that produced the faith in Abraham
that was of such a nature: he became fully convinced that what
God said, He could perform. That is, the cross is able to culti-
vate, in us, the faith *OF* Jesus. And when one has the faith of
Jesus, the grace of God can flow through such a person without any
impediment.
What are the three stages of sanctification and how did you see
that Wayne's replies necessarily implied that the purpose of the
cross had to be for any reason other than to produce in us faith
and to be able to cultivate that faith all the way to perfection?
I don't see how you necessarily saw this. I can't see it!!
Hope you all had a nice Thanksgiving!
Tony
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| 827.19 | Christ had to die "for our sin." | ROCK::PARKER | | Mon Nov 27 1995 10:49 | 13 |
| RE: .18
Hi, Tony.
I made an attempt to share my understanding of the (three-stage)
process of sanctification in note 795.271.
I still hold that Christ, the "lamb (of God) without blemish and
without spot", had to die as "the propitiation for our sins." He was
crucified "that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we
(who reckon ourselves crucified with Him) should not serve sin."
/Wayne
|
| 827.20 | | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Mon Nov 27 1995 11:24 | 9 |
| Hi Tony -
Let me clarify. I do believe that sanctification is a process.
But I believe that its a goal we should work for today. I
believe that saying that we cannot reach that goal until
the latter rain, is discouraging and nowhere in the gospel
of Jesus does he discourage those that love Him.
Jill2
|
| 827.21 | Different View of What Is Propitiated??? | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Mon Nov 27 1995 13:30 | 53 |
| Re: Note 827.19
Hi Wayne,
Boy, I allowed myself to be diverged a bit from the topic! By
God's grace, I'll diverge this one more time and no more! (I
anticipate you will reply to my reply which will be somewhat
peripheral to perfection and so as to not remain diverged, I'll
just let you have the last say.
>I made an attempt to share my understanding of the (three-stage)
>process of sanctification in note 795.271.
OK, I'll reread. I am also aware that you sent me mail offline
which I never responded to. I will (someday). I'm busy!
>I still hold that Christ, the "lamb (of God) without blemish and
>without spot", had to die as "the propitiation for our sins."
Yeah, me too. I suppose I have a different interpretation of this
verse. I believe it was we who were propitiated and not God. Sin
causes enmity and as it was in our hearts, it was us who were alienated
(and not God). The cross, thus, propitiates us (woos us from sin to
God).
>He was
>crucified "that the body of sin might be destroyed,
Yes. The destroying of the body is the crucifixion of the body with
all its lusts. Going to the cross was the culmination of allowing the
word to expose every lust of the body. Christ took sinful flesh,
progressively saw the law of God, and all the while denied the promptings
of that flesh. In denying the flesh with all its lusts, He "destroyed
the body of sin."
>that henceforth we
>(who reckon ourselves crucified with Him) should not serve sin."
Yes, this incredible revelation of love and power of example, if
responded to by faith (if faith lays hold of this revelatory 'word')
motivates/empowers us to "walk even as he walked" and thus the same
body of sin is destroyed in us as we are propitiated back to the Father
and from being rebels. We walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh.
Its all revelatory. The sum total of the efficacy of the cross is what
its revelation accomplishes in the hearts of man.
There is nothing more for it to accomplish. It wasn't needed to change
anything in God. God does not change. God's law didn't require it for
His law is His righteousness (Isaiah 51:7) is agape and agape "seeks not
its own" and "keeps no record of wrong."
Tony
|
| 827.22 | But, I Believe God Does Not Withhold The Latter Rain | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Mon Nov 27 1995 13:31 | 29 |
| Re: Note 827.20
Hi Jill,
>Let me clarify. I do believe that sanctification is a process.
>But I believe that its a goal we should work for today.
Me too!
>I believe that saying that we cannot reach that goal until
>the latter rain, is discouraging and nowhere in the gospel
>of Jesus does he discourage those that love Him.
I believe that we receive the latter rain when we are willing to.
The only way I can agree with your clarification is if God withholds
the latter rain from us. If it is not withheld, but is received
when we are willing to receive it, God cannot be delaying perfection.
One caveout to this is I believe scripture typically alludes to the
latter rain as a 'corporate' experience which takes place at a
certain point in time. But, still, I believe any revelation of the
goodness of God that someone is willing to behold cannot be withheld
by God. So, I guess I believe willing individuals can receive the
latter rain prior to the last day corporate reception. I believe
the cause of the last day corporate reception is the church finally
getting so bright that individuals are blessed with the oppurtunity
to see "good news" and the movement just swells.
Tony
|
| 827.23 | | ROCK::PARKER | | Sat Dec 02 1995 08:43 | 49 |
| RE: .21
In the spirit of Tony's decision to let me have the last say so as to
not precipitate further digression from the topic of character perfec-
tion, I hereby choose not to have the last say. :-)
I really have nothing more to add by way of personal opinion, but I
will include a few more verses:
Jesus said: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the
prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil"; "the Son of man
came...to give His life a ransom for many"; and "this is my blood of
the new testament, which is shed for many for for the remission of
sins." (Matthew 5:17; 20:28; and 26:28, KJV)
"For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death
of the testator." (Hebrews 9:16, KJV)
God said: "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have
given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls:
for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul."
(Leviticus 17:11, KJV)
"...without shedding of blood is no remission." (Hebrews 9:22b, KJV)
And some definitions from the AHD:
ATONEMENT - Reparation made for an injury or wrong.
FULFIL - 1 To bring into actuality; effect.
2 To carry out.
3 To satisfy.
RANSOM - 1 The release of a person held captive in return for
payment.
2 The price demanded or paid for the release of a
captive.
REMISSION - 1 The act of sending (payment).
2 The act of canceling (a penalty or punishment);
pardoning; forgiving.
The question is: Was Jesus' temporal physical death on the cross (in
His body of flesh and blood) REQUIRED in order to effect our eternal
life?
Final interpretation and conclusion left to the student. :-)
/Wayne
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