Conference yukon::christian_v7

 This is a question I've been asking myself lately.  Recently we've had a 
 revival sweeping our church and many lives have been changed, and deeper 
 commitments made to serving our Lord and Saviour.  Our pastor has commented
 frequently about having "head knowledge" of Jesus, but do we have a "heart
 knowledge".  And lately I've been searching my heart, and asking the Lord
 to search my heart and perhaps I can truly answer from the heart, who Jesus
 is to me.




 Jim

    I'm interested in knowing from your heart who Jesus means to you. 
    Perhaps you will write it. :-)
    
    your Sis,
    Nancy

    Jesus is the incarnation of divine responsive Love in humankind.
    
    When we truly love one another is when we can have heart knowledge of
    Jesus.
    
                                    Patricia

 re .2


 There is no doubt in my mind that Jesus is who He said He is..God.  There
 is no doubt in my mind that Jesus died on the cross for all of our sins, and
 there is no doubt in my mind that there is no way to heaven but through
 Him.


 I believe God has been speaking to me lately that my heart is not right.  And
 it is that that I need to settle.  Where is my commitment to Him.  Does He
 have all of my life, am I walking in obedience, is my life one that others
 can look upon and see Christ?  Am I serving him out of love and thankfulness
 or am I serving him for men's approval or for other motives?

 Those are some of the things I'm wrestling with.



 Jim

    
>    When we truly love one another is when we can have heart knowledge of
>    Jesus.
    
                                    

  I believe we cannot truly love others without a heart knowledge/love of
  Jesus Christ.  He comes first, not us.





 Jim

    Jim,
    
    I see the two as so closely intertwined that it becomes a chicken and
    egg discussion.  Isn't it 2 John that says we can love God only because
    he loved us first?  If God truly is love and Jesus is the Incarnation
    of God's love, then we can only experience God through Love. Likewise,
    we can only experience Love because of God.  
    
    To open oneself to God is to open oneself to Love.
    To open oneself to Love is to open oneself to God.

You gotta watch out with Jesus.  Give Him an inch and He'll take a mile. 
Well, not take, perhaps.  But give Him just a bit of yourself, and really
seek to understand Him, and before you know it you'll have signed yourself
over lock, stock and barrel.

I started out knowing Christ only as an incarnation of God - God's love
modeled in human flesh.  And for quite a while I related to Him only on that
level.  People kept talking about Him as Lord and Savior, and I used those
words too just because everyone else was, but I didn't really have their
meanings internalized.

Then after a while, I began to become aware of just how far short of
godliness I do actually fall.  I'd always thought of myself as a pretty good
guy, but I began to note areas of life where I was completely helpless to
change; helplessly a slave to acting in ways I knew were not right.  I began
to understand that I needed a Savior.  I kept trying to understand exactly
HOW Christ's death atoned for my failings, and I couldn't get it.  Finally
the Lord stepped in and just told me that He had died for me.  And so I
accepted Jesus as Savior.

Over the past year or two, I've been coming to understand Jesus as 'Kurios'-
Lord.  As the master of my life, to whom I am a bond-slave.  My life is no
longer my own - as Dr Metcalfe said in his sermon - once the Lord's will
becomes clear, then discussion is over.  Whatever the Lord said is what I
will do, though I still and will always fall short at times.  And I'm
learning to better understand what the Lord is saying.

In terms of impact on my life, understanding Jesus as Kurios-Lord has had
**FAR** greater impact than understanding Jesus as Savior.  As Savior, He
made very few demands.  As Lord, He makes one demand: everything.  It changes
one's perspective on life completely.  

An appropriate song I was listening to today:

"The Stranger on the Shore" by Michael Card.

In the early morning mist, they saw a stranger on the seashore.
He somehow seemed familiar, asking what the night had brought.
With taught anticipation then they listened to His order, 
and pulling the net found more than they had ever caught.

The one He loved first recognized, the stranger there was Jesus.
And he alone remembered this has happened once before.
The one who had denied Him, who had once walked on the water,
jumped in and swam to Him to be confronted on the shore.

  You need to be confronted by the stranger on the shore.
  You need to have Him search your soul,
  You need to hear the call.
  You need to learn exactly what it means for you to follow. 
  You need to realize that He's asking for it all.

The meal He had prepared for them was waiting on the fire.
The smell of bread, the sizzle of the fish upon the coals.
The laughter and the joy, and once more being all together.
they didn't realize that He was searching all their souls.

There came the painful questions that would pierce the soul of Simon.
A painful chance to reaffirm the love he had denied.
The gentle eyes that saw his heart and waited for an answer, 
had seen the look upon his face the moment he had lied.

  You need to be confronted by the stranger on the shore
  You need to have Him search your soul,
  You need to hear the call.
  You need to learn exactly what it means for you to follow. 
  You need to realize that He's asking for it all.

Now realize that you must face and answer all his questions,
as you stand before the stranger on the shore inside your heart.


Paul

>  I believe we cannot truly love others without a heart knowledge/love of
>  Jesus Christ.  He comes first, not us.

Amen, Jim.  Human love, however deeply felt, is just a counterfiet of the
real thing.

>    To open oneself to God is to open oneself to Love.

Amen, Patricia.

>    To open oneself to Love is to open oneself to God.

The only difficulty I have here is the tremendous breadth of meaning of the
English word 'love.'  To open one's self truly to God's love - to the deep
agape Love that Jesus lived in and taught us to live in - DOES open us up to
God, and even if we don't understand it at first, I do believe that God will
get hold of us.

There are so many other things called 'love' though.  Opening up one's self
to any of those doesn't necessarily open us up to God.

Paul

    Do you love me?
    You know I love you Lord.
    Then follow me.
    

 re .7


 I believe that is where I am today, Paul.  I do believe I am saved, however
 I find myself to what degree I've placed my faith in Him, and how much of
 my heart is His.





 Jim

    Ever see that poster that lists all the Biblical names of Christ? 
    That's who He is to me!

    
    All that is going through my mind is the song:
    
    Jesus loves me this I know
    For the Bible tells me so........

 re .12


 yesterday I drove one of our church vans picking up kids for church.  A 
 little girl, Danielle age 4, was sitting in the 2nd row of seats..as we
 were driving I heard her sweet little voice say "Mr Bus driver..can we sing
 a song?"  I asked her what song she wanted to sing  "Jesus loves me" she said.

 I was in a grocery store one day and as I was walking around I heard a little
 voice singing that song..around the corner came the basket with his mother
 pushing, and a little boy singing as his mother helped him..





Jim

    RE: .0
    
    He is the Son of God (even if no one else were to agree).
    
    He is my Saviour--there is none other.
    
    He is my Lord--I owe no other master.
    
    He is my Friend and Brother--I know both through His Word and by His
    Spirit who lives in me.
    
    He is my Vision, the Author/Object/Finisher of my faith, the
    beginning and the end.
    
    In Him I rest.

  Hi,

    I guess I'll share a couple things about Jesus that are things that
    I have recently come to know much more with my heart (experientially)
    than I had ever known them before.
  
    I have been struggling with a certain weakness and have been especially
    confronted about it in the last few months.  I still lack complete 
    deliverance, but I am learning through the process.  I don't care to
    divulge my particular weakness, but its pretty embarrasing.

    When I really began to be confronted about my 'problem', I was up entire
    nights.  One night, I feel asleep and as I was perhaps half asleep, two
    scripture verses came to my mind...

    He made Himself of no reputation.

    "I am a worm and no man."

    This weakness was one I could not face and so I denied it.  It occured
    to me that here I am a pathetic, sinning human being and I had to have
    a reputation all the while my Saviour was willing to have no reputation
    whatsoever.  When He hung on that cross, He was the scum of scums for
    "cursed is any man that hangs on a tree."  He was worse than a pedophile,
    worse than a rapist, worse than a murderer.

    The tears that coursed down my cheeks were many and hot as it hit me
    (not just intellectually), but in my gut that my Saviour truly condescended
    to not even having a reputation while I, in contrast, was holding on to
    one.

    Another thing that happened was that as I faced my weakness, things that
    I suffered in my late teens/early twenties became very real to me.  For
    a while back then, I was in a state of complete hopelessness.  I felt as
    though in a black hole with no way out.  There was no where for me to 
    turn.

    I sort of reexperienced this pain and I realized, "Jesus was willing to
    bear even my pain - and MORE!"  And again, the tears, but they are such
    good tears!

    And what was the underlying motive for this condescension?  It was love.
    "who for the JOY set before Him endured the cross..."  That joy was our
    restoration.

    Can you imagine that?  He who was/is equal with God, desired to have 
    zero reputation and to feel such pain because He loves us that much!
    I believe Jesus felt, on the cross, from the top of His head to the
    tip of His toes, to be a crucifier of God Himself.  To feel to be that
    nasty a person - and to experience all the suffering that accompanies
    feeling to be such a vile person.  Yet without sin.

    Jesus...

    "who in the days of His flesh when He had offered up prayers and
     supplications with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able
     to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear.

     For though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things
     which He suffered.

     And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation
     to all who obey Him.

     Called by God according to the order of Melchizadek.

     Of whom we have much to say and hard to understand since you have
     become dull of hearing..."


     I wonder if much of what we are dull of hearing is the heart-reality
     of His actual experience.  Of not knowing experientially, His pain
     and His casting aside of any reputation.

     May God grant us the experience of knowing first-hand what it means
     to have no reputation and to bear pain so that we can better appreciate
     the travail of His soul "in the days of His flesh" and now as He inter-
     cedes for us.

							Tony

    .15
    
    Tony, I'm in tears... I can so feel in my heart all that you have
    written is our Jesus.  Praise God for your willingness to let God work
    in you.
    
    Regarding this "no reputation" business!  AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN [the
    Bapticostal in me is coming forth]!  I KNOW exactly what you mean. 
    Shame is a two-edged sword.  Proper shame allows us to know we are not
    God.  Improper shame robs of the joy of our salvation, or the fullness
    of the gospel.
    
    I've bared my soul in this conference divulging very personal things
    about me and my family.  The reason for this is because I did not worry
    about my reputation... only His.  His reputation is one of healing, of
    love and of sacrifice.  He gave his life to save a wretch like me.
    
    Thank you Tony for reminding how much God loves me.
    
    Nancy

Amen, Tony.

"He who had no sin became sin for us."

Paul

      Hi Nance,
    
        And thank you for your encouraging reply.  We indeed have
        a Saviour who is night at hand and who knows our _WEAKNESS_
        and who is not ashamed to call us brethren!
    
        Praise God for the ways He has shown Himself to you - painful
        though they may be.
    
    						Take Care Nance,
    
    						Tony

    Tony, allow me to offer a suggestion after reading your reply.  I think
    we've all had some "secret sin" that we've struggled with at one time
    or another that has hindered our walk with God.  I'm a firm believer in
    accountability.  Ask a close male friend or your spouse (someone that
    you can totally trust) to be your spiritual buddy.  It is much easier
    to overcome while ministering to each other.
    
    The same for the ladies in here.  Ask a close female friend or your
    spouse to join with you in prayer and exhortation to overcome spiritual
    hinderances.
    
    Thankfully God has delivered me of many things, but I had wish I taken
    advantage of my Christian friendships in the past to help us grow 
    together in the Lord.
    
    Mike

      Hi Mike,
    
        I deeply appreciate your suggestion and it was somehow being 
        able to do just that that paved the way for a spiritually
        tumultuous, but ultimately positive experience.
    
        We need each other and we need to somehow convey much more
        brightly to others that we can bear their burdens.  Somehow
        people need to see, in us, that they can come to us with
        their perplexities/weaknesses.
    
        Thanks again Mike.
    
    						Tony

    .19 and .20 were exactly the point of the secret sin topic that was
    started 2 years ago. :-) :-) :-)
    
    It is wonderful to see truths grasped onto.  BTW, Tony, you know that I
    can appreciate deeply that even entering this note ambiguously,
    released another part of the binding this sin has on you.
    
    Your Sis,
    with love,
    Nancy

******** Permission to post/author unknown *********
    
In that place between wakefulness and dreams, I found myself in the room.
There were no distinguishing features save for the one wall covered with
small indexcard files.  They were like the ones in libraries that list
titles by author or subject in alphabetical order.  But these files, which
stretched from floor to ceiling and seemingly endlessly in either direction,
had very different headings.  As I drew near the wall of files, the first to
catch my attention was one that read "Girls I Have Liked".  I opened it and
began flipping through the cards.  I quickly shut it, shocked to realize
that I recognized the names written on each one.

And then without being told, I knew exactly where I was.  This lifeless room
with its small files was a crude catalog system for my life.  Here were
written the actions of my every moment, big and small, in a detail my memory
couldn't match.

A sense of wonder and curiosity, coupled with horror, stirred within me as I
began randomly opening files and exploring their content.  Some brought joy
and sweet memories; others a sense of shame and regret so intense that I
would look over my shoulder to see if anyone was watching.  A file named
"Friends" was next to one marked "Friends I Have Betrayed".

The titles ranged from the mundane to the outright weird.  "Books I Have
Read", "Lies I Have Told", "Comfort I Have Given", "Jokes I Have Laughed
At".  Some were almost hilarious in their exactness:  "Things I've Yelled at
My Brothers."  Others I couldn't laugh at:  "Things I Have Done in My
Anger", "Things I Have Muttered Under My Breath at My Parents".  I never
ceased to be surprised by the contents.  Often there were many more cards
than I expected.  Sometimes fewer than I hoped.

I was overwhelmed by the sheer volume of the life I had lived.  Could it be
possible that I had the time in my 20 years to write each of these thousands
or even millions of cards?  But each card confirmed this truth.  Each was
written in my own handwriting.  Each signed with my signature.

When I pulled out the file marked "Songs I Have Listened To", I realized the
files grew to contain their contents.  The cards were packed tightly, and
yet after two or three yards, I hadn't found the end of the file.  I shut
it, shamed, not so much by the quality of music, but more by the vast amount
of time I knew that file represented.

When I came to a file marked "Lustful Thoughts", I felt a chill run through
my body.  I pulled the file out only an inch, not willing to test its size,
and drew out a card.  I shuddered at its detailed content.  I felt sick to
think that such a moment had been recorded.

An almost animal rage broke on me.  One thought dominated my mind:  "No one
must ever see these cards!  No one must ever see this room!  I have to
destroy them!"  In an insane frenzy I yanked the file out.  Its size didn't
matter now.  I had to empty it and burn the cards.  But as I took it at one
end and began pounding it on the floor, I could not dislodge a single card.
I became desperate and pulled out a card, only to find it as strong as steel
when I tried to tear it.

Defeated and utterly helpless, I returned the file to its slot.  Leaning my
forehead against the wall, I let out a long, self-pitying sigh.  And then I
saw it.  The title bore "People I Have Shared the Gospel With".  The handle
was brighter than those around it, newer, almost unused.  I pulled on its
handle and a small box not more than three inches long fell into my hands.
I could count the cards it contained on one hand.

And then the tears came.  I began to weep.  Sobs so deep that the hurt
started in my stomach and shook through me.  I fell on my knees and cried.
I cried out of shame, from the overwheming shame of it all.  The rows of
file shelves swirled in my tear-filled eyes.  No one must ever, ever know of
this room.  I must lock it up and hide the key.

But then as I pushed away the tears, I saw Him.  No, please not Him.  Not
here.  Oh, anyone but Jesus.  I watched helplessly as He began to open the
files and read the cards.  I couldn't bear to watch His response.  And in
the moments I could bring myself to look at His face, I saw a sorrow deeper
than my own.  He seemed to intuitively go to the worst boxes.  Why did He
have to read every one?

Finally He turned and looked at me from across the room.  He looked at me
with pity in His eyes.  But this was a pity that didn't anger me.  I dropped
my head, covered my face with my hands and began to cry again.  He walked
over and put His arm around me.  He could have said so many things.  But He
didn't say a word.  He just cried with me.

Then He got up and walked back to the wall of files.  Starting at one end of
the room, He took out a file and, one by one, began to sign His name over
mine on each card.

"No!" I shouted rushing to Him.  All I could find to say was "No, no," as I
pulled the card from Him.  His name shouldn't be on these cards.  But there
it was, written in red so rich, so dark, so alive.  The name of Jesus
covered mine.  It was written with His blood.

He gently took the card back.  He smiled a sad smile and began to sign the
cards.  I don't think I'll ever understand how He did it so quickly, but the
next instant it seemed I heard Him close the last file and walk back to my
side.  He placed His hand on my shoulder and said, "It is finished."

I stood up, and He led me out of the room.  There was no lock on its door.
There were still cards to be written.
    

Whoa.

I'll need to read that one again

and again

and again

I don't even want to think about my own card-file

 Nor do I...




 

    Powerful reading, ain't it?  Man that Jesus wrote his name across the
    cards... sorry but it had me in tears.
    
    Nancy

re: .19


	Mike, great note!

 re .19


 I am just now beginning to learn the value of having a brother in Christ
 with whom I can share stuff...




 Jim

    re: Tony, Glen, Jim
    
    I'll tell you one thing.  I'm typically a very private person.  I don't
    do very well with opening up and sharing personal things with even
    friends.  It took many years of marriage to be able to discuss certain
    things with my dear wife.  
    
    However, it's a real testimony to the power and cleansing force of 
    God's Word that I was delivered of secret bondage in my life.  Out of
    desparation I became a devotional reader instead of a casual reader. 
    The power of His Word purified me and continues it today.  This is one 
    of the many reasons why I praise Him for His Word.  It's an experience
    that draws you closer to Him at the same time and causes you to never
    doubt Him or His Word.
    
    There was a time when I couldn't really get into reading my Bible. 
    Instead of the "Read the Bible Thru in 1 Year" plan, I was on the
    5-year plan. ;-)  When I did read, it was of the mindset of "Let's see
    how many chapters I can get out of the way today!"  Then I wouldn't
    remember a single thing that I read.  I've learned that it's not how
    much you read too.  Even if it's just 1 verse, try to read His Word 
    everyday.  Read that 1 verse several times and allow it to penetrate your 
    soul.  Ask yourself what that 1 verse is saying, what it means, and how 
    does it apply to you today.  It will radically change your walk with Him.
    
    I've also learned the hard way that the mornings I spend with my Lord
    lead to a better day.
    
    hoping to follow my own advice,
    Mike

Amen, Mike

 Amen Mike!

I have one question which has been bothering me lately.

Let me first tell you what I believe Jesus was and is. I think Jesus was a man, a normal and earthly man. God had chosen him to be t
e 
scape goat for humanities' sins. He gave Jesus all the knowledge needed to fulfill this task and let him do with these powers whatev
r he 
wanted. Jesus saw the necessity of this harsh road he had to take, and completed it. This explains (to me, at least) how he could be
so 
scared just before his arrest (transpirating blood etc). 

Now, my question is : if Jesus died for all humanities' sins, does that mean that EVERYONE will be allowed to go to heaven (or the n
w 
earth, whatever) and NOONE will go to hell ??

Marco

      Yes, Mike, very good counsel and I agree 100%.
    
    					Tony

I have one question which has been bothering me lately.

Let me first tell you what I believe Jesus was and is. I think Jesus was a
man, a normal and earthly man. God had chosen him to be the scape goat for
humanities' sins. He gave Jesus all the knowledge needed to fulfill this task
and let him do with these powers whatever he wanted. Jesus saw the necessity
of this harsh road he had to take, and completed it. This explains (to me, at
least) how he could be so scared just before his arrest (transpirating blood
etc). 

Now, my question is : if Jesus died for all humanities' sins, does that mean
that EVERYONE will be allowed to go to heaven (or the new earth, whatever)
and NOONE will go to hell ??

Marco

re .33

When I first saw that note I thought Paul Weiss had turned into an
Arian heretic!

(Thanks for reformatting it, but preserve headers when you do!)

/john

	Mike, great note. 


Glen

>Now, my question is : if Jesus died for all humanities' sins, does that mean
>that EVERYONE will be allowed to go to heaven (or the new earth, whatever)
>and NOONE will go to hell ??



 Marco, the Bible tells us in Romans 6:23 "..the wages of sin is death, but the
 free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord"..each of us
 being a sinner are doomed to Hell, the wages we receive for our sin.  But
 God gave us this free gift of Jesus paying the penalty, "while we were yet
 sinners, christ died for us" (Romans 5:8)..like any gift, we can accept it
 or reject it.  The gift of eternal life is available to us, if we'll accept it.



 Jim

Hi Marco.  Welcome, I don't recognize your name.  Sorry if I've missed other
notes you've posted.

You're pulling the top off of two very large worm-cans here.  Not that
there's anything bad with that - pull away!  But two common reactions to
worm-can opening are either to respond immediately and overwhelmingly with
what might seem like pat answers, or to just shy away from the questions
altogether because people don't WANT to give pat answers, and a full answer
takes so much time.....

The first can is your statement "I think Jesus was a man, a normal and
earthly man."  What most consider to be the very essence of Christianity is
very different:  That Jesus was not just a man, but was the Creator God
Himself clothed in human flesh.  So we could go off on a LONG discussion
about this point

The second is the can of 'universal salvation.'  We've had some long
discussions about this before.  Jesus speaks over and over of some people
being eternally condemned.  It's pervasive in the entire New Testament, and
pervasive in the words of Jesus.

I know these are short and 'pat,' but I don't have the time for more
extensive answers and I didn't want to just shy away and ignore your
question.  If you have more specific questions about it maybe we can get a
better handle on responses.

Paul

    If Jesus was just a man, chances are someone else could've come along
    in history to do the same things He did.  However, He did things that
    no earthly man can do.  Common sense tells you that this wasn't just a
    man.  He was "El Gibhor," which is the Hebrew term for "God-man" that
    is only associated with the Messiah (Isaiah 9:6).
    
    Mike

re: Note 824.33

Hi Marco,

  Let me say here that my answer will be unlike all others because in some
  fundamental ways I disagree with all others here!

�Let me first tell you what I believe Jesus was and is. I think Jesus was a
�man, a normal and earthly man. 

 Yes, I would agree, but there is something totally unique about Jesus.
 Jesus is God.  Now, I believe that all divine attributes were laid aside
 when Jesus walked this earth as a man.  Jesus walked by faith and faith
 is a dependance upon Another's grace.  Jesus grew in wisdom and stature
 (thus did not possess unsearchable wisdom and stature as does God), did
 not know the time nor the hour of the second coming (again, thus was not
 all-knowing), could of His own self do nothing (thus was totally faith-
 reliant on the Father), and could not be in all places at one time (thus
 was not omnipresent).

 However, Jesus began human life with a faith connection to His Father 
 which was never disconnected.  He never sinned.  In taking sinful human
 flesh, He entered into the weaknesses which are ours, but crucified the
 flesh all the way to the cross via allowing His Father's much more abounding
 grace to indwell His heart.  Thus He always submitted to the promptings of
 divine love and crucified the promptings of sinful flesh and of Satan and
 all other external temptations, i.e. Jesus was sinless.

 I agree with you that He fully walked as man without a stitch of divine
 attributes being active, however, He was previously equal with God (see
 Phillipians 2:3-8) for a summary of His condescension.
 

>God had chosen him to be the scape goat for humanities' sins. 

 Yes, but what does this mean?

 I believe that to learn what this means, we must come to grips with exactly
 what it is that condemns man.  It is sin that condemns man and thus Jesus'
 redemptive work is one of delivering man from sin itself.

 I won't get into specifics, but the message of the cross is one that, when
 received by faith to a certain fulness, actually cleanses the heart of man
 from sin.  The faith path taken is the path of the cross.  We go to the
 cross and it is Jesus who enables us to do so.  

 One BIG point.  If we have begun to allow Jesus to dwell in our hearts, 
 we are accounted 100% righteous though we are not, "God who calls things
 which do not exist as though they did" (Rom. 4).  I won't get into the
 basis for this now.

I'll continue this...

Continuing on...

>He gave Jesus all the knowledge needed to fulfill this task
>and let him do with these powers whatever he wanted. 

 Yes, I agree but in a way in which you might see differently.  LOVE is power.
 What Jesus needed in order to fulfill His task was to see via faith, how
 good and meek and lowly His Father is.  Receiving such a faithful knowledge
 of His Father's love enabled Jesus to take the necessary path to righteousness
 (the cross) and to endure it with faith rather than to be overcome by it by
 despairing.

 Likewise, as we progressively see how good the Father is via seeing Jesus,
 we take the same path of righteousness Jesus took.  A group will yet resist
 "unto blood" as did Christ (Heb. 12).


>Jesus saw the necessity of this harsh road he had to take, and completed it. 

 Amen.  To be made righteous is salvation and, in this humanity, the cross
 is the only path.  Recall that two people were on a cross with Jesus.  These
 people represented all of humanity.  For one group, the cross saves and 
 for the other, the cross destroys.  The cross breaks some people's hearts
 and grinds other's hearts to powder and which it does depends on the response
 of the heart (faith or unbelief).

>This explains (to me, at least) how he could be so scared just before his 
>arrest (transpirating blood etc).

 I'm not sure if scared is the right word, but the cross, in its fulness is
 quite an experience.  It involves seeing all the evil man is capable of
 according to the flesh and feeling to be that sinner.  This Jesus did, but
 He was able to believe His Father still accepted Him.  This was the ultimate
 temptation; to disbelieve His Father's love for Him and acceptance of Him.
 

>Now, my question is : if Jesus died for all humanities' sins, does that mean
>that EVERYONE will be allowed to go to heaven (or the new earth, whatever)
>and NOONE will go to hell ??

 The revelation of the cross saves from sin.  It actually cleanses the heart.

 Think of it this way.  Think of that revelation being a pill.  Jesus has
 given this pill to every man.  If a man receives the free gift, he experiences
 salvation.  If he refuses to receive the gift, he does not all the while
 the pill was still freely given to him.

 Our response is a factor.  The saving grace of the free gift is nullified
 by any refusal to partake.

							God Bless,


							Tony

RE: .15

Excellent note, Tony!  Thanks for revealing your heart and sharing your view of
Jesus.  I was both moved and encouraged in reading your words.

RE: .28

Good stuff, Mike!  Nothing to add.  Just wanted to say thanks for the admonition
borne from your experience.

RE: .31

Marco, this topic was for people to share who Jesus is to them.  That you did.
What has been shared in this topic is personal; therefore, trying to change
words or wording or underlying assumptions is not appropriate.

What I was impelled to do, though, is clarify my own view of Jesus, thereby
deepening my own appreciation of who He is.

| Let me first tell you what I believe Jesus was and is. I think Jesus was a
| man, a normal and earthly man. God had chosen him to be the scape goat for
| humanity's sins. He gave Jesus all the knowledge needed to fulfill this task
| and let him do with these powers whatever he wanted. Jesus saw the necessity
| of this harsh road he had to take, and completed it. This explains (to me, at
| least) how he could be so scared just before his arrest (transpirating blood
| etc).

** In .14 I said Jesus is the Son of God, even if you or anyone else disagreed.
   To me, Jesus was God in the flesh, fashioned as a man.  My understanding
   says that if Jesus were only "a normal and earthly man", then he could not
   stand even as an example to me because he was deluded, if not a liar.  I
   take the Bible to be true, and according to the written accounts Jesus
   Himself claimed to be God.  Even if some problem could be posed with
   translation/interpretation of the accounts, then corroboration of what Jesus
   meant is seen in the Pharisees' charge of blasphemy against Him--they
   clearly understood Jesus to say that He was God.

   My understanding of Jesus' experience in the garden was AGONY, not fright.
   To me the reason for Jesus "sweating blood" was that as God in the flesh He
   had not experienced sin personally.  Soon He who knew no sin was to actually
   become sin and be put to death.  He had not known guilt.  Soon He would
   bear the full weight of guilt and sin, including mine.  He as God understood
   the effects of sin past, present and future and the suffering to be wrought
   and endured in His flesh as a man.  The anguish was unspeakable.  All I can
   say is "my Jesus I love thee" through tears of gratitude--He knew how bad
   sin is and bore mine anyway.  He took my guilt though Himself blameless.  We
   can only get a clue as we allow the Holy Spirit to break our hearts in the
   fellowship of His suffering.

   I guess the bottom-line is that Jesus as The God-man identified with me in
   the flesh to accomplish a work of reconciliation with God that was
   impossible for me to do as a sinner.  His Love for me and for our Father
   constrained Him to suffer and die.

| Now, my question is: if Jesus died for all humanity's sins, does that mean
| that EVERYONE will be allowed to go to heaven (or the new earth, whatever)
| and NOONE will go to hell ??

** The Bible says God gave His only begotten Son "that whosoever believeth in
   Him should not perish, but have eternal life." (Jn 3:15,16)  The passage
   goes on to say "but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he
   hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (Jn 3:18b)

   Jesus bids everyone come to Him:  Whosoever will accept Him is given rest
   and eternal life; whereas those who will reject Him are damned already.  In
   other words, the free Gift is offered to all, but not everyone will choose
   to receive.

/Wayne

Please, forgive me if my questions seem aggressive to you. I'm
not very good at writing English. 

> To me, Jesus was God in the flesh, fashioned as a man.

Then why did he exclaim just before he died "My God, my God, 
why have you forgotten me !!". For me, this one sentence tells me 
he was a human, not God himself as a human. He was given by 
God the knowledge to complete his task as the ultimate sacrifice 
for our sins we had committed until then and the sins we would 
commit. 

Marco

 Marco, I appreciate the questions you are asking.  Unfortunately I don't
 have a great deal of time to spend here these last couple days, so I
 can't provide a tremendous amount of detail.

 The Bible tells us a few things about sin..one, we have all sinned..you,
 me, my Pastor, all of us.  God cannot tolerate sin.  The Bible tells us
 that Jesus became sin for us..he took all of our sin, yours and mine, all that
 we have committed and will ever commit on himself.  While on earth He was
 sinless..while hanging on that cross, He became sin for us, took all of our
 sin upon Himself..God cannot look upon our sin, and for that moment, God
 and Jesus became separated because of that sin.."it is finished" Jesus said..
 and the bill was paid.



 Jim

I'd never looked up 'Kurios' in the concordance to get it's full meaning.  It
is the word which throughout the New Testament is used as a title for Jesus:

1) He to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of 
   deciding; master, lord.
 1a) The possessor and disposer of a thing.
  1a1) The owner; one who has control of the person; master
  1a2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief; the Roman Emperor
 1b) is a title of honor expressive of respect and reverence, with which
     servants salute their master.
 1c) this title is give to: God, the Messiah

Yow!  Gives whole new meaning to calling Jesus "Lord."  I am calling Him "He
to whom I belong, who has full ownership, possession, and right to decide
about the disposition of my life." Yikes!

Paul

    RE: .42
    
    Please forgive me if my answers seem aggressive to you.  I, too, find
    expressing Truth in English sometimes difficult.
    
    Peter's answer to Jesus' question "But whom say ye that I am?" in
    Matthew 16:15 was "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." 
    Jesus then said "Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood
    hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."
    
    The apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 2:10b-16 "...for the Spirit
    searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.  For what man
    knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him?
    even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.  Now
    we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is
    of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of
    God.  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom
    teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things
    with spiritual.  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the
    Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know
    them, because they are spiritually discerned.  But he that is spiritual
    discerneth all things, yet he himself is discerned of no man.  For who
    hath known the mind of the Lord, that he shall instruct him?  But we
    have the mind of Christ." (KJV)
    
    My point?  Peter saw Jesus with his physical eyes, saw Jesus as a man,
    if you will.  But Jesus was more than the physical body of flesh Peter
    saw, He was God.  The Spirit of God which Peter could not physically
    see was in Christ, and the Father opened Peter's spiritual eyes by the
    Holy Spirit so that Peter could behold Jesus as indeed God in the
    flesh.  In other words, that part of Jesus which Peter could not
    physically see was the means by which God revealed Himself to Peter's
    spirit such that Peter could confess Jesus as the Son of God.
    
    The revelation of who Jesus is comes through enlightenment of the Holy
    Spirit, not through physical sight (or intellect); therefore, if you
    are to see Jesus Christ as God in the flesh, then your eyes will have
    been opened by the Holy Spirit.  I can point you to the Word of God,
    but the Spirit of God will convince you of Truth, not I.  Beholding
    Jesus as fully God and fully man is very personal.
    
    The apostle John said in John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and
    dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only
    begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (KJV)  John
    commended his experience of beholding Jesus (the Word who was God) to
    us who have not seen Jesus in the flesh "that our joy may be full."
    
    Why did Jesus exclaim before He died "My God, my God, why have you
    forgotten me?"  As I've indicated previously, there's a deep aspect of
    Jesus' agony that I as a sinner cannot comprehend.  In fact, Jesus bore
    the full weight of my sin such that I would not have to.  But, I also
    believe that we can be touched by Jesus' sorrow through the Holy Spirit
    who indwells us.
    
    My answer to your question:  Jesus suffered and died in the flesh.  He
    thus experienced the full gamut of physical and emotional pain.  Have
    you ever experienced a severe headache to the point where you felt
    unable to think, let alone relate to another person?  Have you ever
    felt so lousy with the flu or other illness that you became aware only
    of your physical and emotional suffering to the point of actually
    forgetting what feeling good or whole was like?  I suggest that Jesus'
    pain in taking on our sin was such that He forgot what being whole, or
    being unified as God, if you will, felt like, to the point He said "My
    God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
    
    Those are just my thoughts on the agony of Jesus Christ, Marco.  The
    real touchstone is the Word of God commended to your heart by the
    Spirit of God.
    
    /Wayne

    The WORD did not become a philosophy, a theory, or a concept to be
    discussed, debated, or pondered.  But the WORD became a person to be
    followed, enjoyed, and loved!
    
    "Unto you is born this day a Savior." (Luke 2:11)