Conference yukon::christian_v7

Wouldn't it be nice if it were all that simple? I think the story does
convey the idea that kindness, love, and compassion are important for
us to share with our neighbors and communities, and that we can be much
happier when we reach out to others in love and sharing. However, true joy
is not something we can achieve on our own, and sin and temptation are
much harder to resist and refrain from than the story makes out. Also,
it gives the idea that things like restuarants, motels, recreational
diversions etc. contribute to or cause human unhappiness, when it is really
the human condition that does this, not the things.

Leslie

    
    I don't like it at all.  Sounds like it might be found in the
    "Ignorant Heathens' Bedtime Stories" or some such title.
    
    jeff

	Can't be, 'Bedtime Stories', Jeff....Madonna already used that one! :-)

  Please, let's not digress into that...




 Jim

I almost sing one of her songs to my hubby, it's called "Like a verger"
 like a verger,
 cutting grass for the very first time,
 like a ver-er-er-er-ger
 trim those edges, get that dandelion.

\C

    ggeee-rrr-oooan!

Groan, groan on the range,
Where we work (and yes sometimes we play).
Where seldom is heard,
of WordPerfect or Word,
when the customer's out for the day.


\C

    Ahh... must be a real slow day in the 'Dead Products Department' ;'),
    eh 'Typhoid Mary'? ;')

    I kinda liked it.  I'm tired of having to be a "realist" and not an
    "optimist"!  I know that life is not a storybook, but it doesn't hurt
    to teach our kids that someday when Jesus comes back, life will again
    be that way.  Simple and happy.
    
    Rose

I guess this depends how you look at things .... I think it is a touching
allegory of how the world has become degraded by selfishness, greed and
commercialism; where possessions may even be seen as more important than
whatever value they really have in life - where slaves of culture or
fashion sneer at those with their sights on heaven.  It is more blessed to
give than to receive.  The enemy says "You fool - you may lose it all!!!" -
when in fact, 'giving' is an investment not just for time, but even more
for eternity. 

						Thanks Jill.
								Andrew 

I'm not entirely sure - what's the problem with this story?  The only
theological bone I could pick with the story is that they managed to get
themselves out of the pit of selfishness, rather than needing to be rescued
by a christ-figure.

Jesus told plenty of parables, they tended to be focused on a particular
issue.  This is focused on how selfishness destroys everything good in life.
As such, it is fine.  I might write the ending differently, but I wouldn't
have to go saying it was horrible.

Paul

    What a lead in Paul gives me...anyone care to rewrite it?
    I'd be interested in a version that I could use with a GS troop
    of mixed religions. 
      

<---- I have my own troop???? 

    
    There's a lot wrong with the story.  I wish I had time to elaborate.
    
    It is extremely naive for one thing, to the point of fantasy.
    
    jeff

Hi Jeff,

If by naive in this instance, you mean simplistic, I don't think that 
matters.  No-one would imagine that it was meant to convey more than a 
principle.  The richest part that comes through is the expression of love, 
as being more important than material prosperity.  This is something which 
many adults need to relearn in practical terms.

If there is fantasy there, it is in the area of trust - living in an 
environment where everyone can trust each other.  That's where I'll
live ultimately.

The story promotes a realisation of that fantasy by living generously and
trustingly.  It doesn't point directly to the gospel - but then, I don't
think it makes any claim to.  However it illustrates how fragile that trust
is, and the how evil /greed which resides in the hearts of all of us can so
easily spoil not only a day, event or instant, but a community and many
lives.

Note that that's just 'illustrate'.  Not an example.  It's weak in that 
respect, but strong in communication.  And I like stories to have a happy 
ending too ;-)

It's not the sort of story I would tell, but then I was never a scout.

								Andrew

I think reactions to this story lead to questions such as what place 
can imagination and allegory have in the life of a believer? and how
to we promote ideas at a level our children can grasp and understand?

Leslie

      Hi,
    
        Perhaps I might go overboard, but I would seek to find the
        good in something.  "By beholding, we become changed."  This
        story supplies that principle.  Its a simple and yet profound
        principle.
    
        OK, the story is silent as to the necessity that the Source
        of any good revelation ultimately is God.  The moon has no
        light of its own inherently, but it can reflect the light of 
        the sun.
    
        If the story had to be real generic, I would maybe add that
        creation points to a God that is love and in seeing creation
        in the valley, the valley people came to discern that God is
        love (albeit in a simple, primitive way) and thus the source
        of their warm fuzzies was an appreciation of the love of their
        Maker.
    
        After all, Romans 1,2 says that creation is sufficient revela-
        tion of the goodness of God such that to not respond by faith
        is inexcusable.  Thus one can be biblical and generic all at
        the same time!
    
    						Tony
                      

    
    Another quick thing; they weren't ordinary people since they had no
    outside influence at all apparently.  They were extremely isolated and
    quite provincial, I'm sure.  Ordinary people today have TVs and at
    least one restaurant in town.
    
    jeff

    Jeff, you're stuck on the fact that these people were isolated from
    materialistic things.  I don't think the point was that the lack of
    these things were what kept them happy.  It's a parable.  I think
    the story would loose ground if we said.... Well there once was
    a family of four who lived in a town next to a McDonalds that was
    across from a JiffyLube and they were friendly but the banker next
    door from Baybank didn't like them....etc.  
    
    Rose

    No.  I'm not stuck at all.  The story creates a setting.  And then it
    asserts that the people were ordinary.  The setting, as described, is
    actually extraordinary, not ordinary.  
    
    The story surely implies immediately that isolation is an important
    component to their happiness.  It then goes on to imply that the folks
    are ordinary in their isolation.  They are not of course.
    
    I'm just offering my views of the story and its value to instruct. 
    Take them or leave them.
    
    jeff

>    I kinda liked it.  I'm tired of having to be a "realist" and not an
    >"optimist"!  
    
    Reality does become tiresome at times, I agree.  But the growth of our
    knowledge of Christ constantly brings us to a finer understanding of 
    reality.
    
    >I know that life is not a storybook, but it doesn't hurt
    >to teach our kids that someday when Jesus comes back, life will again
    >be that way.  Simple and happy.
    
    Life is not a storybook, you're correct.  I don't see the story as an
    allegory of Christ's return and the end of the age but something else.
    
    And I'm curious.  What makes you (or anyone else) believe that life
    will be "simple and happy?" upon Christ's return.  I, along with many
    others, probably hope that Christ's riches will be unfathomable
    throughout eternity and that what we can't imagine has got to have
    infinite complexity.  And I'm hoping for joy - deep, deep joy of which
    happiness is a meager mimic.
    
    jeff
    Rose

    Jeff, you changing your name?
    
    jeff
    Rose ?????

Nancy,  I think it's just the tense that's needing adjusted.  
Not 'rose', but 'will rise'...  ;-) 

back to business... 

.21 � The story creates a setting.  And then it asserts that the people 
.21 � were ordinary.  The setting, as described, is actually extraordinary, 
.21 � not ordinary.  
    
.21 � The story surely implies immediately that isolation is an important
.21 � component to their happiness.  It then goes on to imply that the folks
.21 � are ordinary in their isolation.  They are not of course.

That is just a way of - for the sake of the allegory - reversing or limiting
the effects of the fall.  Saying, just suppose we could eliminate the
effects of sin, even in certain areas, simple to understand; can't you
imagine how much nicer life would be.  Only to short cut it, and reach 
people who might not yet relate to the gospel, it just says they lived in 
isolation from 'the world'

.21 � I'm just offering my views of the story and its value to instruct. 
.21 � Take them or leave them.
Taken and appreciated.  I am also aware of the dangers of fantasising, and see
the boundaries between fantasy, allegory and parable as delicate to define
precisely.  I can see why you might well feel that this one strays too far into
the fantasy area, because it may permit play on the imagination in the escapist
dimension.  But I believe that the essential 'design honesty' that the story 
line is founded on precludes the escapism leading away from realism excessively.

The realism it leads into is a world where there is no friction; the wheels are 
well oiled to run true and run smoothly.  Now if only we could... - and the 
only way for that is true fellowship, and the only way to true fellowship is 
through absolute trust, and the only way to this combination is through our 
Designer, Creator and Redeemer.  It doesn't say so explicitly, but then even 
parables don't spell out their interpretation - that would spoil the picture.

.22 � And I'm curious.  What makes you (or anyone else) believe that life
.22 � will be "simple and happy?" upon Christ's return.  

I'm not sure who used those words originally, but it depends in what sense you 
mean them.  The biggest complication this life has is sin.  Without sin, life 
woudl be simple.  That isn't to say it wouldn't be complex, exciting, involved, 
and achieving.  But the biggest - only - _obstacle_ to progress would be 
removed.  That is a great excitment of heaven.  We can't begin to understand 
what life will be like there, where every apparently chance thought can only be
perfection, because everything is totally conformed to Him.  The 'simplicity'
of this, for me, means the removal of the tension between the old man and the
new, where I have to continually ask myself whether I'm hearing Him or me.
Unfathomable, yes.  But in that other sense, simple.  "Wretched man that I am, 
who will deliver me from this body of death?  Thanks be to God - through Jesus 
Christ our LORD"  Romans 7:24-25.

Joy rather than happiness - yes, generally, but the story is directed at the
simple in heart, and the distinction there is possibly also that the telling of
the story is directed at the transient happiness, which is merely the shadow of
joy, but catches a glimpse of its flavour.

� > it doesn't hurt to teach our kids that someday when Jesus comes back, 
� > life will again be that way.  Simple and happy.
    
� > Life is not a storybook, you're correct.  I don't see the story as an
� > allegory of Christ's return and the end of the age but something else.
To me, the story seems to portray not His return, but rather a wistful look
back towards the gates of Eden.  It seems to me to be looking and waiting -
incomplete - rather than an end in itself.  Sort of - OK, we've learned to 
live as You intended us; now what's the task?

My!  What a lot of digging in to a simple little story!!! ;-)

								Andrew

    
    You'd make a terrific literary critic, Andrew!
    
    jeff
    rose

    Thank you Andrew.. You took the words out of my mouth.
    
    And I thank the Lord that I can share and learn in Christ with ALL of
    you.
    
    Rose