Conference yukon::christian_v7

 What about sins that remain unconfessed at death?  Does God have a list
 with some blotted out and some still on the list and is He going to hold
 it in our faces and say "Ah Hah! Gotcha..you didn't confess 1,252,232 of
 your 7.5 million sins..that's a confessed ratio of blah blah blah"?  I'm 
 a sinner, something I acknowledge to God daily.  I confess those sins
 which I can recall..sinful thoughts, actions, etc.  Many I confess immediately.

 Somehow I can't picture God, to whom I acknowledge my sinfulness, to whom
 I acknowledge my unworthiness to be called a son of God, and to whom I
 give praise for saving my soul through the blood of Christ, dispatching
 me off to Hell, or wherever, for sins that remain unconfessed.



 I do agree, however, that suicide is a sin.



 Jim

What about sins that a Christian persists in and refuses to acknowledge that
they are sins?

/john

  I'm afraid I wouldn't want to be in that position.  I'm not sure where
 Scripture stands on that, however I believe God forgives all sins
 past, present and future.  I suspect that God will have a thing or 2
 to say to those individuals and perhaps heavenly rewards will be 
 impacted.  The Bible also tells us in Revelation that God will wipe
 ever tear from our eyes.  Perhaps those tears come as we are faced
 with those sins which we refused to acknowledge.

 I'd also wonder about the genuiness of the individuals conversion.



 Jim

    John, John, John,
    
    For the Wages of sin is death, BUT the GIFT of God is eternal life,
    through JESUS CHRIST.  Romans 3:23
    
    

	re .4

	Completely true.  The Bible always is.  (but it's 6:23)

	But that verse does not say that unrepentant sin does not
	destroy the relationship with God that allows us to accept
	his free gift.

	Unrepentant sin doesn't get you a free get out of hell card
	if you're one of the the murderers, adulterers, and the other
	sinful folk our Lord mentioned as not inheriting the kingdom
	of God.

	To believe that sin has no penalty is to fall into the
	Antinomian heresy, and to be banished to Rhode Island.

	The true Christian teaching on sin is that God forgives
	those who confess their faults.  A Christian can also believe
	that God is merciful to those who would confess their faults
	but through no fault of their own miss the opportunity, though
	this is not written in the Bible in so many words.  It can only
	be inferred from the infinitely loving nature of God revealed
	throughout the Scriptures.

	God's gift is free, but he only gives out the free get of hell
	card to those who face him with a humble and contrite heart and
	ask.

	/john
	

| <<< Note 791.2 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >>>


| What about sins that a Christian persists in and refuses to acknowledge that
| they are sins?

	John, I would think that if in their heart they did not believe <insert
action> to be a sin, God would know that. Would God hold that against them? A
person can be convinced that a person of <insert group> is bad, and that it is
ok to take actions against them. While the action is wrong, and is a sin, if
they truly believe it is ok, I feel God sees it as a sin, but also realizes
the person was convinced otherwise. I don't think He would hold that against
them.

| -< Not little omitted things, but something serious and deliberate >-

	I had thought all sin, regardless of what it is, are all on the same
playing field. That we humans are the ones who put the levels in place. In
other words, if a person kills, or breaks a promise, they are equal. Is this
wrong? If not, then the above statement doesn't make sense.


Glen

 In God's eye, as I understand it, sin is sin, regardless of what we may think.
 He doesn't give us the option of defining what *we* think sin is or is not.




 Jim

| <<< Note 791.7 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "I'd rather have Jesus" >>>


| In God's eye, as I understand it, sin is sin, regardless of what we may think.
| He doesn't give us the option of defining what *we* think sin is or is not.

	I believe I said He would still see it as a sin, but I also said that
I believe He would take it into consideration. Still a sin, just that He would
be able to realize that this person really didn't know any better. 



Glen

re .7

Here is what the bible says about serious and less serious sin:

   If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall
   ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There
   is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

In 1 John 5:16, the Bible tells us to pray for a brother who sins a minor
sin, one that is _not_ a "sin unto death".  God will grant the prayer.

Then 1 John 5:16 says that there are other sins which are "sins unto
death".  "Sins unto death" require action by the sinner to repair the
relationship with God.  Brothers praying for a brother whose sin is
"a sin unto death" is _not_ advised by 1 John 5:16.

We are to confess our sins, and we are to pray for our brothers, that God
may forgive us and them of their sins.  But the Bible offers hope to those
who sin "a sin unto death" only if they themselves turn back to God and
ask for forgiveness.

/john

	Then doesn't that contradict that no sin is greater than another?

    re: .7
    
    That's my take on it, too.
    
    
    As far as the suicide thing goes, mark my vote down as "sin". 
    
    
    -steve

Well, sin is sin.

But the bible is abundantly clear that there are sins that are worse
than others.

/john

  I heard a message by John MacCarthur this morning regarding confession of
 sin.  He states that confession of sin is not one by one naming of each sin.
 All our sins were forgiven at the Cross.  Confession of sin, MacCarthur
 states is an acknowledgement that we *do* sin, and an expression of our
 thankfulness to God, as well as our desire to no longer sin.  I tend to
 agree.  Is God going to send us to Hell for "forgetting" to confess a sin?
 I believe this moves us from the realm of Grace to the realm of Works.  Jesus
 died once for all sins.  Once we've accepted His death on our behalf, all of
 our sins past, present and future are forgiven.




 Jim

	John, the Bible does say that some sins are worse than others, and I
have heard many a time in this file that no sin is greater than another. Which 
is it?


Glen

    There is "a" sin unto death.  Hmmmm, what might that sin be?  Could it
    be blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?  I wonder.   Or is simply rejection of
    Christ.
    
    

      Death is inherent to sin.
    
      There is not a single creature, who with a single sin in the mind,
      that could behold the unveiled presence of God and live.
    
           					Tony

	I think I'm hearing Gnosticism from a number of people.

	If we remember John's controversy with the Gnostics, we
	remember the background of what he wrote in the 1 John 3:6
	and elsewhere in the Bible and we and know he is speaking
	against the Gnostics for claiming that their special knowledge
	of God put them above good and evil.

	The Gnostics claimed that what the Church regarded as sin
	was, because of their knowledge of God, morally indifferent
	and incapable of undermining the union with God they claimed
	they had.

	This same belief is reflected in the Antinomianism upon
	which Rhode Island was founded.

/john

I don't think so, John.

The "Antinomianism" of which you speak (a term I'm unfamiliar with), and
also, I believe, the Nicolatian Heresy of which you started another note, say
that because we are forgiven by grace, then we can do anything we like, it's
all forgiven.  Go ahead get drunk, go to orgies, anything you please, grace
covers it all.  Yuk.  Nothing of God in that.

What people are saying here is that our sinful ACTIONS are merely symptoms of
a deeper disease.  Yes, the actions must change, but it's not the actions
specifically that are the problem.  The problem is much deeper, in our very
natures.  If we just try to focus on the actions, we'll never get anywhere. 
It's like trying to whitewash over an oil spot - it looks good for a moment,
but the oil always bleeds through the whitewash.  We need to be cleansed at a
much deeper level than merely changing our actions.

And it is that very thing that Christ does for us, transplants His nature
within us, to enable us to *BE* different people, so we will then *ACT*
differently.

Paul

Then how about answering the question.

"What must a Christian do after sinning?"

1. Nothing.  Already saved.  Sin doesn't count.
2. Confess his faults.  Ask God for forgiveness.
3. Something else.

/john

P.S. The Nicolaitian heresy is a completely separate and unrelated thing.
Please discuss it in its own topic.

Well, confess, of course.  But not in the way I think you mean.

When we acknowledge and accept Jesus as Savior and Lord, we are then imbued
with HIS nature, and all our sin - past, present, and future - is cleansed.

We do not then live in a constant state of going in and out of salvation:

  Sin - out of salvation
  Confess - back in salvation

And hope against hope that we happen to die at a point when we're back in
salvation.  I don't know about you, but when I take the definition of sin in
Romans 14:23 "Anything that does not come from faith is sin," I'd be OUT of
salvation as much (or more) than I'm IN.  Sin is anything and everything that
separates us from God, and while I seek to live every moment with the Lord,
I've got a long way to go.  Praise God that I don't have to worry that I
might get hit by a bus after thinking a thought that separates me from God
and thus be lost forever.

When we sin, that sin is already covered by the Lord's blood.  That doesn't
mean we don't have to confess it, but it does mean that it is covered until
we get around to identifying and confessing it.  As long as it remains
unconfessed, it will be a barrier between me and the Lord, but it doesn't
instantly lock me out of the kingdom.  I don't have to live in FEAR and
constantly come to confession out of fear that if I don't I'll be lost.  I
can live in peace that the Lord has covered my sinful nature, and I come to
confession because I don't want anything to interfere with my fellowship with
the Lord.

If we consistently refuse to confess, and by holding onto our sin shut the
Lord out of our lives in a more permanent way, that's a different matter, of
course, and a matter for another discussion.

Paul

 I'd agree with Paul.  In prayer, I constantly acknowledge my sin and the
 understanding that without Christ's death on my behalf I'd be lost.  I found
 that when I was first saved, I was in a state of constant confusion and worry
 about sins I may have forgotten to confess and wondering what side of the
 fense I was on..saved/unsaved.  I don't believe God wants us to live like
 that.  We're free from that.  The knowledge that we are free from that is
 part of the joy of knowing Christ as Savior.  I know when my relationship
 with God is broken by sin not confessed or acknowledged.  I know without
 a doubt when He is trying to get my attention over continued sin..


 When Jesus said "It is finished"  it was finished.




 im

re .20

I think we mostly agree.

But don't you think there is a biblical requirement for Christians
to regularly engage in self-examination against God's Word and for
confession of sins of omission and commission?

Those who follow the traditional 1662 English daily morning and evening
prayer offices pray:

	Almighty and most merciful Father, We have erred and strayed
	from thy ways like lost sheep, We have followed too much the
	devices and desires of our own hearts, We have offended against
	thy holy laws, We have left undone those things which we ought
	to have done, And we have done those things which we ought not
	to have done, And there is no health in us: But thou, O Lord,
	have mercy upon us miserable offenders; Spare thou them, O God,
	which confess their faults, Restore thou them that are penitent,
	according to thy promises declared unto mankind in Christ Jesu
	our Lord: And grant, O most merciful Father, for his sake, That
	we may herafter live a godly, righteous, and sober life, To the
	glory of thy holy Name.  Amen.

This prayer, said daily by millions since the English Reformation, is
based on clear Biblical teaching, and that teaching is that we _must_
be penitent.  Those who say this prayer _sincerely_, listening to its
Biblical teaching, will understand what the Bible requires of sinners.

Just as you stated, impenitence separates us from God.  The biblical
requirement is that repentance is necessary in order for us to make
the promises of Christ effective for ourselves.

/john

    What does poor in Spirit mean?  I've heard it said that being poor in
    spirit means knowing one's ownself.  That when one knows there own self
    they have a proper relationship to God and to others.
    
    Knowing one's self is part of our growing in the Lord.  Growing in the
    Lord means we learn from our mistakes, confess our sins and live a
    victorious Christian life.  It doesn't mean that we lose our salvation
    through growth.
    
    One who doesn't learn and grow might be indeed one who truly never
    believed.  But it is for God to judge, not us.
    
    Nancy

>But don't you think there is a biblical requirement for Christians
>to regularly engage in self-examination against God's Word and for
>confession of sins of omission and commission?


ABSITIVELY POSILUTELY!






 Jim

Yes, John, I agree.  A constant attitude of "Search me, O God, and know my
heart, test me and know anxious thoughts.  See if there is any offensive way
in me, and lead me in the way everlasting" (PS 139:24)  Again, not out of
fear of retribution, but out of a sincere desire not to leave anything
between the Lord and I.

Paul

    I agree with Paul too.  Let me see if I can make it even clearer.
    
    Revealing hidden sin is not something we as humans can do.
    We need God to do this for us, and we need to be willing to listen
    and learn.  So, constantly praying for God to forgive our sins isn't
    for me as useful as the prayer of "Search me, O God" that Paul 
    mentioned.  Pray it once and then be still and listen.  I am almost 
    always surprised at what the hidden sin is, it is very rarely what 
    I thought it would be.  I have spent a lot of time and effort trying 
    to fix what I thought was wrong only to give up and have Him show me 
    what the problem really was. I've found that simply striving to be 
    close to God and waiting on Him is a better goal than trying to be 
    perfect.  It allows Him more room to work.  

>I've found that simply striving to be 
>    close to God and waiting on Him is a better goal than trying to be 
>    perfect.  It allows Him more room to work.

Amen

Paul

   John,

   I also want to make it known that I was not advocating a life of 
   licentiousness. I even brought up the subject of repentence in my
   note under the suicide topic.  

   After reading the latest group of notes in this topic this morning, 
   I pulled out my Bible to find where Paul says something like, "What 
   then, shall I go on sinning so that grace may abound? By no means!", 
   and in my quest, flipped open to the first few chapters of Romans 
   which so eloquently present both sides law and faith, sin and redemption, 
   for both Jew and non-Jew. I think most Believers should make the first
   six chapters or so daily reading every morning before taking up one's
   occupation :-).

   As believers we are identified with Yeshua, and with Him are to be dead 
   to sin. Our lives - thought, word, and deed - should reflect that. This 
   means we actively seek to be obedient to God, and actively repent when 
   we go astray and or fall short the mark. However, this does not diminish 
   that it is through the grace of God we are freed from sin and death:
 
   "For sin pays a wage and the wage is death, but God gives freely and His
   gift is eternal life in union with Jesus the Annointed One, our Lord."
   Romans 6:23

   Teshuvah (Hebrew transliteration), or repentence, is to move away from
   evil inclinations and return to God. One of the books in my library,
   Blu Greenburg's "How to Run a Traditional Jewish Household", talks about
   the "R"s of repentence, I think there were five, but right now I can only
   remember 4:

          1)  Recognition that one has done wrong
          2)  Regret for having done that wrong
          3?) Reconcile? Return?
          4)  Resolve not to continue in the sin
          5)  Resistence in the face of temptation

   I liked this because it continues on into the future, affecting change
   & growth in one's life. My stepson this summer could be used as an example
   of this. Anytime he did something for which he was corrected, his automatic 
   response was "Oh, I'm Sorry", but two minutes later, he'd be doing the
   same thing again - ie. walking out of the bathroom or his bedroom & leaving
   the light on, leaving his belongings all over the house, wiping his hands 
   on his shirt or shorts instead of his napkin, being sarcastic to his sister,
   usual sorts of childhood things. We came to the point where we're saying, 
   "Saying sorry is not the answer, remembering not to do that again is."

   Leslie

>The "Antinomianism" of which you speak (a term I'm unfamiliar with), and
>also, I believe, the Nicolatian Heresy of which you started another note, say
>that because we are forgiven by grace, then we can do anything we like, it's
>all forgiven.  Go ahead get drunk, go to orgies, anything you please, grace
>covers it all.  Yuk.  Nothing of God in that.
    
    Such a view doesn't understand God's grace or His Word in the Book of
    Romans - the Gospel According to God's grace.
    
    Mike

    Re: 4 or 5 R's
    
    There are 3 that Yeshua commanded of the Church at Ephesus in
    Revelation 2:5 so that they could regain their "first love":
    
    1. Remember
    2. Repent
    3. Return

    I am sure that on my death bed (that's if I have a long death rather
    than a swift exit under a truck ;-)) there's a good possibility that I
    will have some sins hidden inside that are unconfessed (maybe if I was
    run down by a truck I may have some obvious sins that I hadn't got time
    to confess) - does this mean I lose my salvation and go to hell???????
    
    Love
    Ben
    
    

    Whilst the last question still stands (and I'd appreciate an answer
    from those who believe that every sin must be confessed) I have another
    point to make:
    
    I believe that sin must be confessed, repented of and forgiven.
    However, I do not believe that we should spend our time looking for
    sins to confess. If we search ourselves then we will either:
    		a) Let ourselves off lightly
    		b) Get bound by condemnation
    
    The answer is that we ask God to search us (Psalm 139:23) and give the
    Holy Spirit plenty of space to convict of sin.
    
    My own view to unconfessed sin affecting our salvation is this:
    The sermon on the mount contains a lot of difficult teachings by Jesus.
    If we take them literally then every one of us is heading for hell!!
    The point of the sermon on the mount is thus:
    		a) To show us how impossible it is for us to earn our
    		   salvation
                b) To show us the best way to live, in which we enjoy inner
    		   peace and the knowledge that we are doing our best for
    		   our Lord and Saviour
    I see unconfessed sin (once you are saved) in the same light - we can't
    always see all our sins (those we do see we certainly must confess).
    Through confession and repentance we find that inner peace that we are
    cleansed in the precious blood of Jesus, that we have got a beautiful
    relationship with the Lord where there are no barriers. We also know
    that we are living the best we can for God.
    
    Love
    Ben

	I would think that if in one's heart the are seeking God, then if you
happen to miss confessing a sin or two or more, it ain't gonna matter. If Jesus
is truly in your heart, then I believe forgiveness for your sins has to be
there as well. (the ones you believe were sins anyway)


Glen

	How about never confessing and/or asking forgiveness for some
	particular very serious sin, like murder?

    John -
    
    Are you pursuing this string for some purpose that isn't obvious?
    What I mean is - perhaps if you tell us more about what you are 
    really looking for - this discussion could be more productive.  
    It seems to me that you have a purpose that isn't being addressed.
    
    Jill2

| <<< Note 791.34 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >>>

| How about never confessing and/or asking forgiveness for some particular very 
| serious sin, like murder?


	John, does it ever say in the Bible that no sin is greater than
another? Please answer that.


Glen

re .-1

That's already been discussed in this topic, Glen.

May I interject a few sentences?

Maybe we should look from God's point of view...

How does God view Christians?

Are we new creatures in Christ, made anew?

I liken this to the transformation of a caterpillar to a butterfly.  I'm sure
the butterfly does not think of itself as a converted worm but as it really
has become; a beautiful butterfly (leaving the past image behind)....

We seem to be stuck on the sin issue when sin has already been dealt with. 
Instead of seeing ourselves as God does; a new creature transformed by Christ,
we see ourselves as converted sinners and continue to dwell on that past 
nature.  Since now we cannot become more "spiritual" since God has completed 
that in us; what's left is allowing Christ to come in behind us and slip into 
our lives (like a hand into a glove) and for him to live his life in and 
through us.

Ephesians 5 is not a "do this to be Christian"; it's if you are a Christian,
this is how you'll be...living the Christian life is not human works oriented
because we simply cannot do it.

Just as salvation is a free gift not "earn-able"; so is living the Christian
life not "live-able" if Christ is not allowed to live it through us.  Both 
situations require only yielding to him.  That's why grace is so powerful.  We
are free to have Christ live his life through us.  We don't need a "license" to 
sin, our old nature makes us do this anyway.  With "grace" comes responsibility,
i.e., the ability to "respond" correctly and we cannot do this in our own
strength; Christ does this in us.

I heard a sermon on how God views us.  Remember back as a child, a cereal box
would have a "visual mess" on the back of the box.  The statement was "Find
the bunny rabbit in the picture".  Because of the "mess" we could not readily
find this bunny.  The instructions told us to grab the item inside the box
and remove the wrapper.  This item was a piece of red plastic.  If this plastic
is held up to the box, all of the "chaos" would disappear and the bunny would
be in clear view.  God now sees us through the blood of Christ.  

I like to visually think of a "time-line" extending left and right.  To the 
left about 2000 years, I see an empty cross on a hill.  At the base of this
cross is a present wrapped with my name on the "To:" line of the card.  God 
finished sin once and for all on that cross.  The only sin left is that of 
unbelief by rejecting that gift (blaspheming the Holy Spirit).

We seem to have the first part of the gospel down pat:  "Christ died to forgive
our sins"...but the second half does not get as much attention: "and 
he rose again in power and might to prove what has been done"...

The resurrection power is how we live our Christian life.  We can now move on
in our life leaving the old nature behind.

Paul (the apostle) says in one of his letters something like this (sorry, don't
have the reference with me):
"When we stumble, simply get up and move on."  No mention of asking for 
forgiveness again.  We did that when we became Christians.  Just get up and 
move on.  

Sure these times will occur.  And if our "stumbling" hurts another
on the horizontal axis, then there are consequences and forgiveness required
between the parties involved.  However, the situation on the vertical axis has
be dealt with already.

I think that once we know our identity in Christ, we can move on.

So let's speak of the triumphs of what Christ has done through us and
others we know about  Just think if Christians everywhere would grab hold of
their identity in Christ and allow Him to live His life in and through ours.
The world would be turned right-side up!

Thanks for this opportunity to type...

Jeff  (a mostly read-only)

    That was great Jeff... :-) Nice to see a Read-Only coming out.

Beautiful, Jeff.

    Jeff's pretty cool for a keyboard player ;-)

    Thanks Jeff - puts it all in perspective.
    
    Thank you Jesus for the cross, the washing in your blood and the new
    resurrection life I now live in you.
    AMEN

    Good note, Jeff.  You should come out of read-only status more often. 

	Thank you, Jeff.
	Those were words I needed to hear today.

	Karen

I thought we had achieved a consensus that the Bible calls us to continually
ask God for forgiveness of our sins.

Then a message was posted which claimed that this wasn't necessary, but
instead, "When we stumble, simply get up and move on."  (no reference
provided)  It claimed that the Bible doesn't call for another request
for forgiveness.

But this simply isn't true.  Conversion is a continual process.  Those who
call themselves brothers but persist in serious sins are to be shunned by
the Church.  Paul makes this clear in 1 Cor 5:9-13 and provides lists of
the sins he considers serious there and in up to thirteen other places
such as 1 Cor 6:9-10.  But they are also to be restored, because God
forgives those who confess their faults.  God forgives those who _ask_
to be forgiven.  God does not forgive those who reject the Holy Spirit,
who reject the need for acknowledging sinfulness and the need to reach
out and embrace God's free gift.

Christianity is not a religion which involves only a relationship with God
to the exclusion of the relationship with the community.  Sins against God
are sins against the community, and vice-versa.  Jesus tells us that what
we have done to anyone in need, we have done to him.  And Paul tells us to
drive the wicked person from among you.

Confession to God and to each other (James 5:16) is not just a recommendation,
but a Biblical commandment in order for the sinner to be restored to the
communion of the Body of Christ.  The Church is called in the Bible to
the ministry of reconciliation.  And not only to the unsaved, but to the
brother who comes and asks for forgiveness, not seventy times but seventy
times seven.

/john

    Jeff I particularly liked the cereal view.
    
    Thanks
    Jill2

    re .46
    
    John,
    
    for what its worth, I agree with you.
    
    Not only is it not biblical to not need to ask for forgiveness when we
    sin, it is also psychologically harmful to not recognize our own
    errors, repent, and make amends where possible, before we go on!.
    
                                      Patricia
    

    .48
    
    Patricia,
    
    I think you must have not read the entirety of the notes in this file
    to implicate that something else was suggested.
    
    Nancy

"When we stumble, simply get up and move on."

The "asking for forgiveness" part is the "get up" part.  So many times we
stumble, and just lay there on our face in the mud.

There's a difficult balance to be reached.  HOW sin is to be looked at is
entirely dependent upon WHEN the sin in question occurs in time.  If it is in
the future, we need to view it as a horrible thing,and prepare in every
possible way to avoid it.  If it is in the present, we need to again view it
as a horrible thing, resist it with every ounce of strength we possess.  But
when it is in the past, we need to confess it (get up) and forget about it
(almost) completely, retaining only that portion of memory that will help us
from falling into that sin in the future.

We get into big trouble when we view sin through the wrong temporal lens.  If
we view future or present sin as if it were already past, we have a tendency
to minimize it, not worry about resisting it (God will forgive me anyway) and
fall away from the Lord by falling into sin.

But God doesn't want us to wallow forever in remorse for our past sins.  He
wants us broken and contrite, yes.  But we need to get up and move on.  If we
look at past sins as though they were future sins, we continue to agonize
over them, though we no longer have the power to change or avoid them.  At
that time, we need to just lay them at the cross (the only place they CAN be
changed)  We may have some mud we have to clean off from falling, or we may
have injured ourselves (or others) in our fall, and then we have more work to
do.  But otherwise, we get up, ask forgiveness, and move on toward the
kingdom.

Paul

re .50

Correct.

/john

I looked up those Rs of repentance & there are only four:

       Recognition of having done wrong
       Regret
       Resolution not to repeat
       Restraining oneself in the face of the same temptation or opportunity
          that previously led to wrongdoing.

In regards to Jeff's, John's, and ?'s note: cannot all be true? 

1) We should carry in us the realization that Jesus makes us free to choose
   right instead of wrong. The more we yield our spirits to the Holy Spirit,
   the stronger we are to choose right instead of wrong.
2) When we do fall, we need to make things right by acknowledging our failure,
   seeking forgiveness, and where applicable, making amends.  
3) After repentance, shouldn't we carry on with our lives with renewed 
   determination to belong totally to God and to do right instead of dwelling
   on what we did wrong? 

I do not see any of these things as being exclusive of the other.

Leslie

My system is so slooow that lots of notes got entered as I was writing mine.
I agree with just about everybody :-). How's that for a change? Paul, I es-
pecially appreciated your note.

Leslie

    re .46
    
    John - do you believe that if a christian is killed before they have a
    chance to repent of a sin they lose their salvation?
    
    Love
    Ben

| <<< Note 791.37 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >>>


| That's already been discussed in this topic, Glen.

	John, things have been discussed that would lead someone to think that
sins are not on the same playing field. Yet I seem to recall that there is
something in the Bible stating no sin is greater than another. That was why I
asked if the Bible actually states that PARTICULAR line (or something close).


Glen

>But this simply isn't true.  Conversion is a continual process.  Those who
>call themselves brothers but persist in serious sins are to be shunned by
>the Church.  Paul makes this clear in 1 Cor 5:9-13 and provides lists of
    
    John, you're confusing salvation & justification with sanctification.
    Salvation is not a continual process.
    
    Mike

>    John - do you believe that if a christian is killed before they have a
>    chance to repent of a sin they lose their salvation?

I can't know whether God will give them a chance that I don't know about
to repent.  I know God is infinitely merciful.

This is why I pray for the souls of the faithful departed, that they may
continue to receive God's grace and to grow in the love and knowledge of
God, until they see him as he is.

I believe that the only way to lose salvation is to reject God to the very
last -- and the words "reject" and  "last" are defined by God, not by you or
me.

/john

>This is why I pray for the souls of the faithful departed, that they may
>continue to receive God's grace and to grow in the love and knowledge of
>God, until they see him as he is.
    
    Hebrews 9:27, Luke 16

re .58

It looks like Mike Heiser believes that "to die once, and after that the
judgment" means that prayers to God for the souls of the faithful departed
are ineffective.  Does Mike believe that those who die in a state of sin
and out of fellowship with God have definitely lost their salvation?

I believe that the Bible says that if we pray to God the Father he is good
and will grant all our requests.

The Hebrews verse says nothing about what happens between death and judgment;
it only states an order, not a passage of time.

/john

>It looks like Mike Heiser believes that "to die once, and after that the
>judgment" means that prayers to God for the souls of the faithful departed
>are ineffective.  Does Mike believe that those who die in a state of sin
>and out of fellowship with God have definitely lost their salvation?
    
    Yes.

>I believe that the Bible says that if we pray to God the Father he is good
>and will grant all our requests.
>
>The Hebrews verse says nothing about what happens between death and judgment;
>it only states an order, not a passage of time.

    Luke 16 agrees with Hebrews 9:27.  Purgatory is not Biblical.
    
    Mike

Who's talking about purgatory?

I said that Christians pray for the souls of the faithful departed
because we believe that God will hear our prayers and will consider
them on the day of judgment.

Nothing in either the Hebrews or the Luke passages says that God
will not grant prayers on behalf of those who have already died.

/john

    The faithful departed are already saved.  What need do they have of our
    prayers?  Their too busy worshiping at the throne of God to notice.
    
    Mike

re .62

You are right; those who are _perfected_in_Christ_ are at the perpetual
Supper of the Lamb.

But this part of the discussion started in .57, in answer to the question
"Do you believe that a Christian who is killed without having a chance to
repent of sin loses salvation."

You say (in .60) "Yes" they lose their salvation; I say "we pray to God
that they don't".

I call these people "faithful departed" because they had faith, but had
slipped shortly before being killed, and had separated themselves from
fellowship with God through this sin which they hadn't yet repented of.
These are people who were "[partially] full of faith" but at the time
they were killed their faith was not gone, but just at a low ebb, like
Peter on the night before the Crucifixion (but worse).  Maybe they are
angry at God because of the death of a loved one, cursing him and his
name, and also killed someone else in their anger and were shot by the
police.

I pray for God to pardon them and let light perpetual shine upon them.

/john

    
    
    Re: note .56 "Salvation is not a continual process." -
    
    
    Phil 2:12 Sounds like a continual process to me.
    
    	I think it is you who are confused Mike, with respect to Redemption
    	and Salvation.
    Read Rom.2:6 and 2Cor 5:10. - then tell me that what we do after we are
    "saved" has no bearing on our eternal state.
    
    We have been redeemed through the sacrifice of Christ. I am saved, I
    hope to be saved, and I strive for the salvation Christ promised in
    fear and trembling becuase I know that I still have a bit of the race
    to run.
    
    Peace,
    
    		Tom 
    

    It looks like we're back to the old chestnut again of whether we have
    any influence on those who have died and if they have any influence on
    us. I find no biblical basis for us being able to alter the state of a
    dead person by praying for them - you die and face judgement, there is
    no more they can do to alter their salvation/damnation.
    
    On the issue of working out your salvation/losing your salvation I
    cannot accept that you need to keep working to continue to be saved -
    where is Gods ability to keep in that?? We are born again of an
    imperishable seed, we are held in Gods hand and none can snatch us
    from it. 
    
    As for confessing all our sins, I think this is impossible - we will
    get weighed down with condemnation, we will have to repent of repenting
    with the wrong motive, we will miss hidden sins, we will spend all our
    time repenting because even our thoughts are sinful. 
    
    All this points to the question (again) of saved by grace or by our
    efforts. There is nothing we can do to get saved except accept it.
    
    Love
    Ben 

I can find no biblical basis for _not_ praying for the departed.

I can find nothing in the bible that indicates that our prayers are
_not_ useful for them.

Without a biblical command to _not_ pray for them, I think it is foolish
to consider it known that it is unprofitable.

/john

  Might I remind the noting public that we have painted this bridge before
 with negative results?






 Jim

  Hi,

    I believe that when one has first come to faith, at that exact same
    moment, one has repented over sin.  Faith works by a revelation of
    God's love and it is the goodness of God that leads to repentance.
    Faith is the channel through which God's love is received in the 
    way in which that love is permitted to change the heart and that is
    precisely what repentance is - a change of mind (or heart).

    Its a continuous process.  Yes, we are accounted perfectly righteous
    when we first have faith, but redemption includes Christ's work
    of cleansing the heart from sin.

    As to the question of unconfessed sin, my main thought is that it is
    very dangerous to 'stay the same' and of course perilous to regress
    spiritually.  Unconfessed (but realized) sin will work on the heart
    like acid.  Ultimately a response has to be made.  Not because God
    can't forgive, but because a heart that has begun to allow God to 
    change it cannot comfortably sit still.  The possibility of turning
    away from God is a scary reality.

    Its real important to strive for new wine.  We need to continue to
    grow.  Old wine can give us spiritual apathy.  Old must be mixed with 
    new.  Our prayer should always be, "Lord I believe, help Thou mine
    unbelief" and as we continue to behold more fully His love and allow
    that love greater access to the heart, our repentance will deepen.

    Thats my 0.02.  Salvation is from sin.  Sin in the heart.  Its not like
    God can't forgive, rather its like sin itself condemns.  He accounts
    us perfectly righteous when we first have faith and unconfessed sin has
    the danger of drawing us from that experience of any faith at all.

    Finally, just a quick thought on praying for the dead.  I don't think
    our prayers can 'change God's mind' as to whether or not He will be
    merciful to the dead.  Their eternal destiny is fixed.

    That (to me) is the big question.  Is their eternal destiny fixed?  I
    believe it is.  Its fixed by their own choice; a choice made by all
    persons during their earthly lives.

							Tony

    Tom, (Re: .64)
    
>    Phil 2:12 Sounds like a continual process to me.
    
    What's the difference between "work out" and "work for"?  Your
    interpretation contradicts Paul's other writings in Ephesians 2:8-9,
    Titus 3:3-7, and in the same letter in Philippians 3:9.  Since we know
    God's Word is perfect, the contradiction is yours to resolve.
    
>    	I think it is you who are confused Mike, with respect to Redemption
>    	and Salvation.
>    Read Rom.2:6 and 2Cor 5:10. - then tell me that what we do after we are
>    "saved" has no bearing on our eternal state.
    
    I don't think I said what we do has no bearing on our eternal state.  
    Romans 2:6 is quoting Psalm 62:12.  Thought Paul is talking about those
    who do good deeds and those who don't, we must still take God's perfect
    Word in its entire context and realize that there is nothing we can do
    to give us salvation.  2 Corinthians 5:10 is a reference to the Bema
    Seat Judgment - which is the judging of deeds for *BELIEVERS* (i.e.,
    those who are saved).  Completely different from the Great White Throne
    Judgment.
    
>    We have been redeemed through the sacrifice of Christ. I am saved, I
>    hope to be saved, and I strive for the salvation Christ promised in
>    fear and trembling becuase I know that I still have a bit of the race
>    to run.
    
    Tom, it doesn't sound like you have any assurance.  1 John 5:13 has a
    message for you.
    
    Mike

re .63

    John,
    
>You are right; those who are _perfected_in_Christ_ are at the perpetual
>Supper of the Lamb.
    
    Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. 
    What can we possibly pray on their behalf that they don't already have?

>But this part of the discussion started in .57, in answer to the question
>"Do you believe that a Christian who is killed without having a chance to
>repent of sin loses salvation."
>
>You say (in .60) "Yes" they lose their salvation; I say "we pray to God
>that they don't".
    
    You said those who are "out of fellowship with God."  This says to me
    that they have no relationship with God and are not Christians (i.e.,
    not saved).  This is why I agreed.  True Christians will be saved
    because of their imperishable seed.

>I call these people "faithful departed" because they had faith, but had
>slipped shortly before being killed, and had separated themselves from
>fellowship with God through this sin which they hadn't yet repented of.
    
    I disagree here.  Those that have faith have a relationship with God
    and will not be out of fellowship with Him.  They are true believers.
    
>These are people who were "[partially] full of faith" but at the time
>they were killed their faith was not gone, but just at a low ebb, like
>Peter on the night before the Crucifixion (but worse).  Maybe they are
>angry at God because of the death of a loved one, cursing him and his
>name, and also killed someone else in their anger and were shot by the
>police.

    Interesting example in Peter.  If Peter had died that night, do you
    believe he would've been saved?  I do.
    
>I pray for God to pardon them and let light perpetual shine upon them.
    
    God has already pardoned them.  When He looks at the true believer, He
    sees the righteousness of His Son.
    
    Mike

    Gracious love
    Reaching out to take me as I am
    Accepting, expecting I will do the best I can
    Caring, You cover me, clothed in Your own righteousness I am
    Exactly - what You've made me, by grace I have found favour in the Lamb!
    
    Made free to me
    Eternal life a gift that has no end
    Receiving, believing in the mercy You extend
    Cover me, You cover me, clothed in Your own righteousness I stand
    Your mercy, has me me a part of Your salvation army band
    
    Peaceful sleep
    Enjoyed by those whose eyes find rest in You
    Adoring - the glory of Your presence within view
    Cover me - You cover me, in Your own righteousness I stand
    Eternally - You made me a part of Your salvation army band
    
    � Phil Keaggy from the Sparrow album "True Believer"

Romans 8:1 - Therefore now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ
      	     Jesus.

What can we expect from our lives "In Christ Jesus?"

James 1:14-15
      but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away
      and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and
      when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

So, in Christ Jesus do we have evil desires?  YES.
Do we sin? YES.
Does that mean we die? NO.  Only if the sin grows up.  How do we
keep sin from growing up?  KILL IT WHILE IT IS STILL A BABY!

1 John 1:7
      But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, then we have fellowship
      with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies from all sin.

So IF we walk in the light, then the blood of his son purifies us from ALL sin.

What does it mean to walk in the light?

Psalms 119:105
      Your word is lamp for my feet, a light for my path.

So by following God's Word, we walk in the light.  What specifically does GOd's
word say about Christians and sin?

Acts 8:22
      Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord.  Perhaps he will forgive
      you of having such a thought in your heart.

JAmes 5:16
      Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that
      you may be healed.

1 John 1:9
      If we confess our sin, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our 
      sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Ergo, Walking in the light can be summed up as follows:

      		Confessing to God
      		Repenting of sin
      		Praying to God For forgiveness
      		Confessing to each other and praying for each other.

Note "walking" is in the present tense so it is a continual process.  Note also
the blood of Jesus "purifies us from ALL unrighteousness" and "purifies us from
ALL sin" as we walk in the light and confess our sin.

Practically speaking, do I have evil thoughts and do I sin?  YES.  Lust is a 
particular struggle for me.  Do I confess each and every incident of lust? NO.
Do I repent of each and every incident of lust individually? NO.  Do I confess
my sin of lust?  YES.  Do I repent of my sin of lust?  YES.  Do I pray for
forgiveness for my sin of lust?  YES.  Do I confess my sin of lust to others?
YES. Am I walking in the light?  YES.  Do I have ANY FEAR on the day of 
judgement that God is going to stick in my face the numerous specific incidents 
of lust I did not confess or individually repent of?  NO!!

By walking in the light, the blood of Jesus will purify me from ALL 
unrighteousness and keep me "pure and blameless until the day of Christ, filled
with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ-- to the glory
and praise of God." 

Love in HIM,

Peter, who's been read only until I could find a place to jump in and the time
       to do it.  I work a Continuous Work week schedule and am in San Jose
       all next week so I won't be able to reply until Thursday 9/22 unless
       I can get my modem and phone link to work in the hotel room.

    	You know, I really haven't cared to bother getting too wrapped
    	up in this particular discussion because I find it fruitless to
    	participate in a topic where a distinctly-Catholic practice
    	(the Sacrament of reconciliation/confession here, for instance)
    	is debated with strong non-Catholic Christians.  Both sides
    	are strong in their beliefs.  Headway and/or mutual understanding
    	is rarely achieved, but instead the results are often further
    	division.  Because I haven't followed it closely, I'm really not
    	sure of what's being said here except for my impressions of it
    	based on cursory visitation.  (And I really question whether I
    	am being prudent in stepping in here now, but here goes...)
    
    	One thing that I sense here is that there is a hangup on having
    	to confess each and every occurrence of sin during a Catholic
    	confession session.  Personally I think this is a fallacy.  From
    	a purely human perspective I'd venture to guess that each and
    	every one of us would agree that it is impossible to account for
    	them all, impossible to remember them all, too time consuming to
    	enumerate them all.  The Sacrament of Reconciliation is not about
    	compiling grocery lists of sins.  It is about examining one's 
    	conscience, and realizing not so much the fact that we sinned,
    	but what it is in us that causes the sin -- pride, fear, revenge,
    	lack of respect, selfishness, despair, etc.  THAT is the sinful 
    	nature within us!  THAT is what we are seeking grace to overcome.
    
    	As a Catholic I believe that in the sacrament of Reconciliation
    	I am standing before Jesus Himself, embodied in the priest.  I
    	know logically that I can do the very same thing with Jesus in
    	my heart, or at least that I am supposed to be able to do this...
    	But I find that I need a warm body too.  I need human consolation,
    	and I need a human to whom I can expression my contrition.  I also
    	benefit from the counsel and insight of that other human.  Yes, if
    	I confess to Jesus in private in my heart I can be the most free to 
    	be honest and open without fear of human rebuke or seemingly "life-
    	threatening" repurcussions if someone hears my confession, I am
    	assured by the rules of the Sacrament of Reconciliation that I
    	have guaranteed confidentiality, allowing me that same freedom.
    
    	The grace and growth from the Sacrament is not in emptying the 
    	pebbles out of my shoe and counting them.  To me that is almost
    	secondary.  And to address the point I initially intended, it is
    	clear to me that the Sacrament has been instituted with that in
    	mind.  When I make a confession I start off with, "Bless me,
    	Father, for I have sinned..."  I then confess, and then I end 
    	it with, "I am sorry for these sins, and all my past sins."
    	I did not make up that last line as a disclaimer.  This is a
    	part of the rite as taught to all of us.  This is one thing that
    	tells me the precise enumeration is not what's so important.
    	Likewise, after I discuss my confession with the priest, he
    	grants me absolution: "... and through the power vested in me 
    	I absolve you of all your sins, in the name of the Father, and 
    	of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit..."
    
    	The Sacrament of Reconciliation is more of a filling than an
    	emptying.  Rather than seeking to unload guilt, I seek grace 
    	to avoid sin.

    .72
    
    hey Peter I'm in the San Jose Area!!! Call me at (408)748-4418 during
    the work day, maybe we can connect, if YOU see this. :-)
    
    

    .50
    
    Good note! I'd like to add that one cannot promise God that they will
    not sin but only when they do they will get up and turn to Him again
    (immediatly)
    
    In Love 
    Peter

    Joe,
    
    re .73
    
    Good note.  Thank you for entering it.
    
                                     Patricia

    .73    Joe, i haven't stopped sinning yet! 
    
    I really enjoyed the note. In my opinion, it's a very positive
    reflection on you and your church.
    
    jay

    I heard a real good answer to the question of whether a Christian
    could lose their salvation last night.  It was by our bible study
    teacher.
    
    She said you can lose what you never really had.  She said that some
    people give their lives to Jesus, but they place conditions on it and
    they don't walk the Christian walk.  But they believe that they are
    saved.  Well, she said, you can lose what you never had.  Then she was
    asked what about Christians who are really saved and who make mistakes
    and who stop listening and stop walking with God.  She said that the
    way she sees it, Jesus allows us to drift a certain distance away from
    him at which point he will reel us back in like you would reel in a
    fish.  So can you lose your salvation, she said no.  Now there is one
    way that God will abandon you.  If you blaspheme the Holy Spirit.  She
    meant by this, if you hate the Spirit and say terrible things about
    him and insult him purposefully.  But, she said, how could anyone who
    really *knows* the Holy Spirit hate him?  So, she said, you can lose
    something you never really had.  But can you lose your salvation, I
    don't think so.
    
    
    Jill2

It's a tough question, Jill, regardless of what answer you come up with.

The thing that makes it so tough is what we see happen in the world.  There
are some people who, from every possible indication including their own view
of themselves and the fruits evident in their lives, were walking deeply with
the Lord.  Then at some point later in their life, they turned away, left the
faith, and went far away from the Lord.  I'm not talking about the slips we
all have, even the big ones.  Some people who *REALLY* seemed to be on track
with the Lord, and *REALLY* believed they were on track with the Lord at the
time, later *REALLY* turn away from Him.

This leaves three equally unappealing options:

  1) They were never really saved.  This means that at the height of their
     supposed communion with the Lord, which everyone else *AND THEY 
     THEMSELVES* thought was salvation, they weren't really saved.  It raises
     the equally nasty question - 'If it happened to them, am *I* really
     saved?'

  2) They had salvation and lost it.  This is frightening too, in that we
     now have to worry about *WHAT* we might do that would cause us to lose
     our salvation.  It's even more frightening in light of Heb 6:4-6, which
     indicates that if this happens you can't be re-saved.

  3) Having once been saved, they are still saved in their apparently 
     apostate later state.

I don't think there's any scriptural support for the last option (though that
doesn't keep some people from believing it).  There's scriptural support for
both of the first two.  A OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) vs. Loss of
Salvation discussion is usually good for a hundred notes or so of strong
opinion.

I tend not to worry about it too much.  I've said this before, but a key
principle for me in regards to any issue is: "Will my life be impacted by the
answer to this question?"  If the answer is no, I pretty much ignore the
question.  This is one of those for me:

 If I might lose my salvation, 
   then I'd better be sure that I spend my time focusing on following Jesus.  

 If I might not really be saved, 
   then I'd better be sure that I spend my time focusing on following Jesus.  

Since in both cases I'd better spend my time focusing on following Jesus, I
just stop there, forget the question, and follow.

Paul

    Yea Paul isn't it amazing how simple it really is?
    Follow Jesus.
    (Did you notice that thats always the answer no matter what the
    question?)
    
    Jill2

Yes, I noticed that.  :-)

Sounds like a good personal name:  "There's one answer to every question"

:-)

Paul

I liked 791.78, Jill.  Personally I find it inconsistent to say one can
'lose' salvation, because salvation is, by its very nature eternal, not
temporal.  If you 'lose' something which can only be continual, you can
never have had it! 

1 John 5:13 says:
   "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God 
    so that you may know that you have eternal life...."
		    ^^^^          ^^^^
Or, in the KJV:
   "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of
    the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye
    may believe on the name of the Son of God.


Ephesians 1:13 says:

   "Having believed, you were marked in Him with a seal, the promised 
    Holy Spirit, Who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the 
    redemption of those who aree God's possession..."

That guarantee isn't just against external attack, but internal as well.  
We don't rely even on our will power to retain salvation, but on His 
faithfulness.

As Christians, our brief is not to be concerned about the source or 
continuation of our salvation - that is assured, and in His hands.  We are 
released into fulfilling it, acting it, living it!

Concerning Paul's 3 points - we cannot answer for anyone else's salvation.  
Only value our own!  Man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on 
the heart.  The Christian life spent in doubt or uncertainty of its reality 
is not the victorious life He died to bring us!

There are many verses which are taken to mean one can lose salvation, but I 
believe that on analysis these actually refer to loss of rewards etc, and 
are contextually explicable.

I recognise that there are many people who sincerely believe you can lose
your salvation, and I'm not wanting to dive into discussion on it (you
might have noticed - I can't get in much these days, being rather busy!),
but rather just wanted to say 'thank you' to Jill... 

					God bless
							Andrew

| <<< Note 791.80 by HPCGRP::DIEWALD >>>

| Yea Paul isn't it amazing how simple it really is? Follow Jesus.

	Jill2, I believe this is the only answer, and I believe it is probably
the hardest thing to always do. But that's because we are human. 



Glen

Hey Glen, can we pause just for a moment and note that we AGREE on something!
And on the most important something, at that.  Can we remember this next time
we find we DISagree on something?

:-)

Paul

	Sounds good to me Paul!!!!!  :-)

    amen!

    >Some people who *REALLY* seemed to be on track with the Lord, 
    >and *REALLY* believed they were on track with the Lord at the 
    >time, later *REALLY* turn away from Him.
    
    Actually I see this as just a very very long fishing line.
    
    Jill2                 

    Would you say that the Pharisees and Saducees were on a very
    long fishing line when they nailed Jesus to the cross for
    blasphemy? I forget the exact text, maybe corinthians, but
    it goes something like --" no man having put his hand to the
    plow, and then turning back, has any part with me", again I don't 
    know the exact wording (I'm on a very long line myself right now).
    
    I do beleive there will be people lost in the end that believed,
    as the Pharisses, that they were saved. " Depart from me, I never
    knew you". While works cannot save us, our relationship with Jesus
    is like all relationships, we must put in to get out.
    
    These are only my opinions, and I have been wrong before so please 
    don't take offense if I seem argumentative.
    

    .88
    
    I think perhaps you are correct in that there is a really long fishing
    line extended here.  I also think that Jill is saying the same thing
    you are. :-)

Luke 9:62  And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the 
plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God. 

On the cross:
  "Jesus said "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing"
							Luke 23:34

My take on this is that Jesus was praying for:

� The Roman soldiers, who were 'just obeying orders', in their crude ignorance.
� Israel - the individual Jews who were not personally aligned with a
  spiritual rejection of the Saviour
� 'The world', of unsaved and ignorant individuals, most of whom who had yet to 
  understand that they were lost and needed a Saviour.

The second category can include Pharisees and Saduccees.  The rejection by 
their court was not unanimous, but forceful enough to push it through from 
the top (eg John 7:45-52, and Gamaliel's speech of Acts 5:34-40).

Note that Jesus prayed for those who _did_not_know_ what they were doing.
ie, though the deed was overwhelming, their personal involvement was
superficial - a human, go-with-the-crowd reaction rather than a spiritual
one.  I haven't expressed that very well, but I'm referring to the
unforgivable sin, against the Holy Spirit, mentioned in Matthew 12:31 

  "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall
   be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall 
   not be forgiven unto men."

For those who knew that they were rejecting their Creator God, and His way 
of salvation, they had sealed their doom.  There was no room for repentance 
in their hearts.  I believe that there were such around, from little hints 
like John 3:2, where Nicodemus said, as a chief Rabbi:
	"we know you are a teacher who has come from God"
	 ^^ ^^^^

Their vehement insistence at the trial, and in particular the terrible
words of Matthew 27:L25 ("Let His blood be on us and on our children") also
point to a determination to be rid of the LORD Jesus whose motivation is
demonic in its force. 

Certainly agreed that there will be some lost who thought they were saved.
Earlier today I was recalling a discussion from way back where this was
referred to, in point 3 of note 267.4, particularly in the sheep and goats
judgement of Matthew 25.  Also, in James 2:19,  we are reminded that the 
demons believe - and tremble!, because their belief is not to salvation.
This is also possible for humans - to believe that the salvation Jesus 
offers is the only way to God, and yet to reject it.

	`							Andrew

    ANDREW,
            Is this to say that you agree that salvation can be lost?
            This is what I believe although it did not seem to come  
            across in re.88. I don't believe that we can stay "saved"
            while living a life cotrary to biblical principles. 
    
            That is not to say that we will not be making mistakes in
            our life, but if we do not repent and seek forgiveness, we
            will be carrying the burden of sin which will forfeit our
            salvation. 
    
            Paul (I think) said, " we know we have passed from death to
            life, when we love the brethren". Motivation in the christians
            life must be from this unselfish love available only through
            a daily connection with Jesus. If we find ourselves doing 
            contrary to the will of God repeatedly (key word), does'nt
            this show a lack of conversion? Would'nt we be outside of
           His guidance, and I assume outside of His Grace (Saving Grace)?
            
    
    p.j.

Hello p.j.!

� Is this to say that you agree that salvation can be lost?

No.  If you possess something with an eternal dimension, to 'lose' it 
denies that what you had ever actually affected eternity.

� I don't believe that we can stay "saved" while living a life contrary to
� biblical principles. 
� ... if we do not repent and seek forgiveness, we will be carrying the burden
� of sin which will forfeit our salvation. 

So would you maintain that your salvation is (at least to some extent)
dependent on your efforts? 

When Jesus died for our sins, He completed the work, dealing with sins as
then uncommitted, as well as those which were past.  He died for the sins
we commit after salvation, as well as those we commit before. 

Now, agreed from 1 John 3:9 the Christian should not be able to fall into
habitual sin because of the Holy Spirit within, who makes that sin a 
discomfort.  There are those who backslide into sin in areas of their 
lives, and they are the most unhappy of Christians, and may not even be 
known to others as Christians.  But the way of righteousness is their 
desire, however covered up it may be by an external facade, because it is 
unattainable through the sin they have put first.

Only God truly knows their hearts, but there are some in that position
[apparently Christians formerly, but now living with undealt-with sin in
their lives] who are hardened and rebellious against God and against the
gospel.  Generally I would doubt that such were ever saved, because even
where one hasn't the moral courage to deal with a fall, there is the
awareness of the witness of the Holy Spirit at some level, so that one is
prevented from utter blasphemy.  The backslidden Christian is living a life 

�	Paul (I think) said, " we know we have passed from death to
�	life, when we love the brethren". 
1 John 3:14, but actually it says 'because' we love the brethren, rather 
than 'when'.  ie, it is the natural response of the saved nature which 
assures the individual that he has eternal life, rather than something 
which we monitor to see if we have got there!

� Motivation in the christians life must be from this unselfish love
� available only through a daily connection with Jesus. If we find ourselves
� doing contrary to the will of God repeatedly (key word), doesn't this show
� a lack of conversion? Would'nt we be outside of His guidance, and I assume
� outside of His Grace (Saving Grace)? 

| If we find ourselves doing contrary to the will of God repeatedly (key word) |

Yes - if someone finds their pleasure in life walking where God is
excluded, it is a solemn cause to cast doubt on whether the individual was
ever yielded to Christ at all.  A warning first to themself, and secondly
to others.

I have met people who have claimed to have been saved, but later lost 
interest, who had clearly merely been through a cerebral choice, and the 
heart and will had never been subjected to an indwelling Jesus.  However 
they would not understand that because they had never been beyond the 
logical choice aspect.  To a superficial inquirer they would appear to have 
been saved and lost, but on examination that was not the case.

1 John 5:13 says:
  "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so 
   that you may know that you have eternal life."

I find the 'so that you may know' to be very important.  You can't 'know', 
if you are liable to lose salvation during the rest of your time on earth.

						God bless
								Andrew

    I like the way Andrew put it.
    
    1 John 5:13 says:
      "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of
      God so that you may know that you have eternal life."
    
    This contains both the words "know" and "eternal".  Once you truely
    "know" then you have eternal life.  This supports the belief that you can
    only lose it if you never really had it in the first place.
    
    Saying that a human can "fall away" is the same as saying that
    salvation is dependent on your efforts.  
    
    1 John 3:2
    2But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall
     see him as he is.
    3Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is
     pure.
    4Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.
    5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our
     sins. And in him is no sin.
    6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin
     has either seen him or known him.
    
    >Luke 9:62  And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the 
    >plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God. 
    The context here is Jesus telling people who are still deciding whether
    they should follow him or not.  "Looking back" refers to the decision
    to first choose Jesus. 
    
    
    Jill2
    
    
      

 
I believe the "know" is more of a statement of assurance of one's salvation,
and I beileve the "Hand to the plough and looking back" is, similar to 
what took place in the days of Lot and his wife..once we are saved, and
we look back at our former life, we are not fit to serve God.  We cannot
have one foot in the kingdom, and one foot in the world.




Jim

    I heard an evangelist once who asked:
    
    If you died right now do you know beyond a shadow of doubt where you
    will go?
    
    Which "know" is this one?

 Perhaps I misunderstood your note re 1John 5:13.  I look at the book of
 1John as a book of assurance.  From the first verse we are assured of 
 who Jesus is, and that he is real, that even though we will sin, there
 is forgiveness of sin.  We are assured that our faith will be victorious, 
 and I believe John rounds out the epistle by saying "I write these things, 
 so despite your failings or doubts, you may *know* that you have eternal
 life"...where "know" means "be assured" rather than possesion of knowledge.


 I could be wrong, but that's how I see it.



Jim

    It's a run!

    ha!

      I was wondering what must a Christian do after Snarfing?
    

>     I was wondering what must a Christian do after Snarfing?
 
Laughing AGAIN!

    Nancy,
    
    that's an easy one!
    
    
    
    
    
    
    				   REPENT!

    And make restitution to those you've robbed by snarfing! :-)

                      <<< Note 791.103 by ROCK::PARKER >>>

>    And make restitution to those you've robbed by snarfing! :-)

	Yeah, Nance!  FOURFOLD restitution!  ;-)

� 	Yeah, Nance!  FOURFOLD restitution!  ;-)

Delete four times the notes you've entered?

						;-)
								&