Conference yukon::christian_v7

Hi Jay,

I have never heard of Hans Kung - at least, not to remember.

Is there something profitable you would offer us from his walk with the LORD?

							Andrew

Hans K�ng is not permitted by the Vatican to call himself a Catholic
theologian; you should also not do so.

/john

    
    > here we go!  
    
    NOT!  Jay, could you for the simple fact that it offends your 
    brother John refrain from calling Kung a catholic?  Would it
    really be that much skin off your teeth to do so?  Would it
    really be too high a price to pay for peace?  
    
    John, perhaps you could have softened your note.  The first
    sentence was good information.  The second might have been 
    nicer as a request rather than an edict.  
    
    Jilla

Hans K�ng is a theologian who is a Catholic, but not a Catholic theologian.

/john

    
    Okay, so if I understand this correctly John.  Hans Kung is a 
    Catholic and a independent theologian not backed by the Vatican.
    Correct?
    
    BTW...how did you do those cute little dots over the u?
    
    Jilla

    RE: .9
    
    Well Jay, I'll give you my two cents worth.  (I think that's nearly
    4 cents for the Aussies.  ;')   )
    
    Since theology is the study of the nature of God, I think we should
    all be on some level theologians.  As with the Bereans, we should
    be examining the Scriptures daily to see if what we are hearing is
    true.  As to the formal organization of theologians who form opinions
    about God and mans' relationship to God, I think they can be helpful
    but are not a final authority.  God is always the final authority and
    He has given us His word and His Spirit to gain understanding.  There
    are times when a particular theologians work interests me, but I think
    we should always be testing what we hear by the Word of God with the
    guidance of the Holy Spirit.
    
    Jilla

    What part of Kung's theological stance does the Vatican disagree with? 
    I'm just asking because I've never heard of this guy.
    
    thanks,
    Mike

>    Another issue Kung has is on the priesthood of believers. Catholics
>    believe priests can forgive or declare sins forgiven or whatver 
>    (John 20:23, Matt 16:18), Kung says any believer can do this.
    
    The Bible doesn't support either one.  They've misinterpreted both of
    these passages.
    
    Mike

>Since he has been ex-communicated,

He hasn't.

You really are full of false info about the Catholic Church.

/john

Maybe his 'phone just isn't working.

(dismal attempted funny - sorry)

>>    Another issue Kung has is on the priesthood of believers. Catholics
>>    believe priests can forgive or declare sins forgiven or whatver 
>>    (John 20:23, Matt 16:18), Kung says any believer can do this.
>    
><    The Bible doesn't support either one.  They've misinterpreted both of
>    these passages.

Alright!  Stop it right now!  Yet another misrepresentation of Catholic
teaching.

Catholics _do_not_ believe priests can forgive sins; the heading on paragraph
1441 in the Catechism is "Only God forgives sins".  Priests exercise the
biblical ministry of reconciliation (2 Cor 5:18), assuring those who confess
their faults of God's forgiveness.

There is nothing unbiblical at all in the teaching of the Catholic Church on
this.  Paragraphs 1422-1484 of the Catechism give more than enough biblical
references.

Before you discuss this any further, please take the time to find out what the
Catholic Church actually teaches, rather than what its detractors falsely
claim.  Read the above mentioned paragraphs and all the references in the
notes.  You may still not agree, but at least you might stop spreading
falsehoods.

/john

    John,
    
    I'm curious why is that you believe that the catholic church is so
    misunderstood?  I'm being honest about this.  I've been told by
    catholics that the previous was true.  You say its not, but most of the
    parishoners don't agree with you.  
    
    I'm very very confused and concerned.  Because you are accusing Jay of
    spreading falsehoods, but it appears as though the church itself has
    trouble communicating its beliefs.
    
    Something must be done to correct this...and you're pointing fingers
    and being offended, doesn't help correct, just incites the issue
    further.  
    
    I was married to a catholic for 12 years, and I'm telling you honestly,
    his belief of catholic doctrine and what Jay has been saying is
    completley congruent.
    
    Nancy

The Catholic Church has no monopoly on people who haven't learned the
teachings of their Church.

If you asked the average Protestant in the street the sort of questions
about what the Bible teaches you'd get the same sort of wrong answers.

If someone came in here spouting off "Protestants believe" with every
sort of urban folk religion they've heard in the street you folks would
be very upset.

Well that's what's happening here.

/john

� Maybe his 'phone just isn't working.

I liked it, but somehow I just don't think it would be half as funny for me
to enter it now ;-{ 

							& 

    .20
    
    Thank you for your explanation... but John the analogy falls short imo
    due to the fact and I say fact, that this "urban" theology of
    catholicism as you call it, is in fact "mainstream" belief for most of
    the catholics that I know.
    
    Now, what this says to me is one of two things:
    
    1.  The church is not clear on its teachings.
    2.  People are not listening and are ignorant [and hordes of them at
        that].
    
    I don't think its fair for you to accuse people who aren't catholic of
    spreading falsehoods about catholicism, when the information we receive
    comes from catholics themselves.
    
    Have you ever brought up the fact that there are so many widespread
    misbeliefs about catholicism with the church itself?
    
    I'm curious as to whether or not the church itself sees this phenomena
    of its parishoners being so ill informed or not.
    
    Thank God for the few like yourself who "study".  I see as part of the
    problem [as an outsider] is that up until recently, the "Bible" wasn't
    taught chapter by chapter or book by book.   Most catholic services
    included a book in the pew that was "read" from and lessons were taught
    via catechism...but real Biblical exegesis was missing.  Many parishes
    have begun having a Bible study service in which the Bible is studied
    chapter by chapter, not parable, by parable, or "life of Jesus"
    studies.
    
    I think this is important... but am curious is this as a result of the
    church losing members, or to better educate.  I had heard the former
    from a member of a local parish who is a good friend of mine.
    
    Nancy
    
    

.19 has a *real* good point bueried in it
> ... but it appears as though the church itself has
>    trouble communicating its beliefs.
    

>    1.  The church is not clear on its teachings.
>    2.  People are not listening and are ignorant [and hordes of them at
>        that].

You could also include
     3.  People are people, and as such have their own "slants" or "subtle
         changes" applied to what they hear, intentional or not.

Any large organization, be it the Catholic Church or Digital Equipment
Corporation, has it's teachings/rules/policies, but every human wether
they realize it or not is always applying their perspective to those.  I
*think* I remember what I was tought as a child in Catholic school, but
have been in many churches since, not all of them Catholic, and am thus
influenced by those experiences.  I liken a "Catholics say/do/believe..."
statement much as I do a "DEC told me..." statement - that it's one
view/understanding and may or may not reflect the teachings/rules/policies
of the organization's leaders.  Though the official teachings be written
in the Chatacism(Orange book, press release, etc), since they are often
taught by humans(Nuns, Priests, Managers, Co-workers), they get muddled
easily.


That all said (whew!): I am a Catholic, do not Pray to Mary, believe that
the Pope (or any other human) is infalible, don't worship statues or other
icons, eat little children for dinner, or many of the things that I've
heard that "Catholics do".

-Steven

    <<< Note 778.19 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" >>>

>    I've been told by
>    catholics that the previous was true.  You say its not, but most of the
>    parishoners don't agree with you.  ...
>    but it appears as though the church itself has
>    trouble communicating its beliefs.
    
    	The last statement is the real crux of the problem of Catholic
    	misinformation, in my opinion.  John is correct and consistent
    	with true, verifiable Catholic teaching.  Unfortunately there
    	are far too many within the Church -- nevermind outside of the
    	Church -- that propogate misinformation.  
    
    	From what I've seen and experienced throughout my life as a
    	Catholic, I tend to point the finger at the religious education
    	programs in the parishes.  Far too many lack substance but
    	load up on entertainment such that real Catechism education
    	is totally ignored.  It is only now as homeschooling parents
    	seeking to educate our kids in the Catechism that my wife and I
    	are discovering what we don't know.  I can say that I've truly
    	learned more about Catholicism in the few years I've been 
    	reading the CATHOLIC notesfile than I learned in the previous 
    	30 years as a run-of-the-mill ignorance-is-bliss Catholic.
    
    	Nancy, had I written this note 6 years ago I would have looked
    	at John's entries with disdain.  I believed as your husband
    	apparently did/does.  I showed great contempt for the first 
    	few years of participating in ::CATHOLIC to people like Eric 
    	Ewanco, Pat Sweeney, and so many others there.  And being the 
    	vocal person that I am, I wrote quite a few scathing replies
    	to those folks because they seemed so stuffy and archaic.
    	What some people do to this conference regarding Biblical
    	authority, I did to the ::CATHOLIC conference regarding 
    	Church teaching, and I now look back with embarrassment at 
    	some of those entries...
    
    	I'm getting off track.
    
    	Yes, there is great misunderstanding about Catholic teaching,
    	and it is as prevalent among Catholics as it is among others.
    	That prevalence does not change the true teaching, but it
    	certainly masks it.

    A typical argument I've been hearing from those trying to challenge
    my beliefs goes like this.
    
    There are terrible people out there who do terrible things in the name
    of God and Christianity.  So how can you believe in Christianity?
    
    The answer I give is:
    Just because there are people who distort the true teachings, that 
    does not prove that the true teachings don't exist or are wrong.
    
    Seems to me that this applies to true Catholicism too.
    
    (Wouldn't it be nice if no one ever distorted the truth?)
    
    Jill2

    
    I agree with just about everything entered here.  :-)
    
    I think John is right for trying to root out the misconceptions
    about what the Roman Catholic church believes and btw we are
    all apart of the catholic church.  :-)
    
    I think we should be striving for the truth; we should be setting
    the record straight.  There is a great deal of misteaching by
    teachers and priests who have their own slant; so we should be
    promoting right teaching here.  John is very tapped into that and
    I have come to respect that.
    
    I also think that John's comparison is right on the money...because
    I would be upset if someone said Protestants, SB, or even christians
    believe <some falsehood not taught by the church>.  For instance,
    as I have been upset with White Supremists that says the Bible supports
    their stance.  It most certainly does not!   Now, that doesn't
    mean that there aren't elements in the RC church that will misteach 
    what the church teaches, but they are no longer teaching the churches
    teaching.  I believe the Pope has expressed a great deal of concern
    for the state of the Romand Catholic church he has been shepherding.
    I have the utmost respect for this Pope (me being a non-RC).  He has 
    spoke out to mass audiences the true teachings of the church with
    boldness!  He has told his people that if they are hearing something
    different, they are not hearing the truth.  Another voice of the
    RC church that has international status is Mother Teresa and she has
    spoke out boldly of the truth too.  
    
    We need to as the holy catholic church be uplifting the truth that is
    in the RC church and helping them correct the problems they have 
    instead of contributing to them.  Lets help in the spreading of truth
    in all denominations!  AMEN!  (I got excited there! heehee)
    
    Jilla

    The only question that comes to mind to me, which is extremely grievous
    is; "What about those lost and going to hell as a result of
    misinformation?"
    
    My ex-husband's entire family is in that place.
    
    Nancy

>Alright!  Stop it right now!  Yet another misrepresentation of Catholic
>teaching.
    
    I've been to confession when in high school.  The priest told me I was
    forgiven of my sin.

>Catholics _do_not_ believe priests can forgive sins; the heading on paragraph
>1441 in the Catechism is "Only God forgives sins".  Priests exercise the
>biblical ministry of reconciliation (2 Cor 5:18), assuring those who confess
>their faults of God's forgiveness.
    
    Maybe so, but I only know what I've experienced and what other
    Catholics tell me.
    
    Mike

    I've never heard "urban myth" associated with Protestants like it is
    with Catholicism.
    
    Mike

>    I've been to confession when in high school.  The priest told me I was
>    forgiven of my sin.

Forgiven by God, through the merits of Jesus Christ and the ministry of
reconciliation exercised by those to whom Jesus sent out into the world.

	"Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did
	 beseech you by us; we pray you _in_Christ's_stead_, be ye
	 reconciled to God."  2 Cor 5:20

The priest told you:

	"May God give you pardon and peace"

And then, carrying out the apostolic ministry given to the Apostles and
their successors by Our Lord when he said, "whatsoever thou shalt loose
on earth shall be loosed in heaven," the priest said,

	"I absolve you from your sins IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER AND OF
				      THE SON AND OF THE HOLY SPIRIT."

Thus the priest made it clear that GOD gives PARDON and that the priest
exercises the MINISTRY OF RECONCILIATION in the NAME OF GOD, *in*Christ's*
*stead*.

The priest looses the sins on earth; you are reconciled to the community
of believers; he prays with the certitude given in Matt 16:19 and 18:18
that God _will_ also loose the sins in heaven.

/john

.31 is filled with falsehoods about the true teaching of the Catholic
Church.

I really think that you should stop trying to present what you do not
understand.

/john

    John, the priest only told me "I absolve you of your sins."

.31 is also a misrepresentation of the biblical view.  (Of course.)

	IF we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to
	forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all
	unrighteousness.

				1 John 1:9

The unbiblical view that Christ forgives all sins is used by liberals (and I
think you said you fall in that liberal camp, but I'm not sure you make this
claim) to justify universal salvation even of those who doggedly persist in
their sins refusing to confess them.

/john

>    John, the priest only told me "I absolve you of your sins."

Then he wasn't using the prayer he is _required_ to use:

	God the Father of mercies,
	through the death and the resurrection of his Son
	has reconciled the world to himself
	and sent the Holy Spirit among us
	for the forgiveness of sins;
	through the ministry of the Church
	may God give you pardon and peace,
	and I absolve you from your sins
	in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

This is the formal prayer which is required to be used; as C.S. Lewis says,
formal prayers have the assurance that they represent formal doctrine, and
not the heresy-du-jour.  Informal prayers are to be commended for private
use and special prayer meetings, but not for occasions where the doctrine
of the Church is being spelled out.

The form of this prayer used in the Episcopal Church is:

	Our Lord Jesus Christ, who has left power to his Church to
	absolve all sinners who truly repent and believe in him,
	of his great mercy forgive you all your offenses; and by
	his authority committed to me, I absolve you from all your
	sins: In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the
	Holy Spirit.

Note that both of these are prayers TO GOD asking him to grant forgiveness;
the priest is loosing on earth that which is assured, by the merits of Christ
and the ministry of reconciliation committed to the Church, to be loosed in
heaven.

/john

I really don't have time to refute all of the falsehoods that are in .31,
but this one is particularly blatant:

>You will also be interested to know that Trent banned all bibles that
>weren't in Latin.

This is absolutely false.  See

 http://listserv.american.edu/catholic/church/trent/trent4.html#Edition

The decree of Trent was that editions of Bibles were to be approved by
the Church and not generated willy-nilly by backyard translators.
Just a few years after Trent the Roman Catholic Church produced the
Douai-Rheims English bible.

Even fewer years after Trent the Roman Catholics produced approved
French and German versions of the bible.

/john

    RE: .27 > "What about those lost and going to hell as a result of > 
    misinformation?"
    
    Nancy,
    
    Hmmm...well, in Romans it refers to people who haven't heard the gospel
    being held accountable for the knowledge of God that He Himself
    instilled in us.  Everyone is still accountable.  And certainly, these
    RC have the Bible.  And certainly, I'm sure that the teachings of the
    RC were available to them in authorized book form.  Are you so sure
    they haven't made their choice?  And how exactly do we explain RC who
    are true converts of the gospel?
    
    I have a friend who was saved in the midst of a cult.  The gospel was
    there albeit veiled in a bunch of junk they added.  She was totally
    committed there and one day the Holy Spirit told her to look up and
    look around during prayer time and He opened her eyes to what these
    guys were really doing.  She left and never went back and has been in
    solid Bible-preaching churches every since. God judges the heart, He
    knows those who are sincerely seeking Him.
    
    Jilla

    
    RE: .31
    
    Jay (but really for all of us because I wrote this generically)
    
    >I can back all this up from documentation and sources. So cries of
    >heresy and threats to burn me at the stake won't work! :-)
    
    Yeah, but the guys that talk about extraterrestrials in 764 say they
    have documentation to back up their "facts" too, it doesn't make it any
    more true.  Understand I come from a strongly Protestant background and
    spent my whole youth being anti-RC.  But over the years and in part due
    to John's ministry here as well as other sources, I have come to throw
    away my anti-RC view in favor of considering myself a member of the
    catholic church (the church universal).  I have brothers and sisters in
    many denominations.  Denominational-bias be gone!  Rather than
    continuing to promote misinformation that I'm sure all have heard from
    various sources, why not encourage our brother and promote truth!?!??
    John told me years ago that he stayed in the RC church to win people to
    Christ, to help change the misinformation.  I have watched John (as I'm
    sure we all have) painstakingly enter volumes of information here and
    in CP and I know he's active elsewhere.  Shouldn't we be helping him to
    change things so that others may be brought to Christ?  Do we have so
    much disrespect for the RCs that we have written them off as not
    deserving to hear the true gospel?  Will we continue to spread the
    misinformation? Wake up!  Lets lose our denominational bigotry and 
    spread the gospel of Christ Jesus.  The time is now.  The harvest is 
    ripe!  
    
    Jilla (who isn't sure what's gotten into her today)
    
    
      

                       <<< Note 778.31 by CSC32::KUHN >>>

>Ok, we are all talking about RC teaching, but what *is* the real teaching
>from the Catholic church? Why are they different from other sects? 
    
    	See MK 14:22-24.  (And the same for the other Gospels.) 
    	Interpretation of this is the MAJOR difference.
    
> Why Priests? 

    	JN 20:21-23 and so many other things from scripture.
    
>The RC church believes that Christ was incarnated, died, resurrected and
>ascended to heaven _SO THAT_ sins MAY BE forgiven. This is different than
>the biblical view which states that Christ forgave all sins in an instant.
    
    	Christ's own words in JN 20:23 is a Biblical view that contradicts
    	your statement.

>The RC church believes that Christ established the priesthood (not the
>priesthood of believers) to be the same order Melchizedek as is Christ
>and that it is this priesthood that stands  -in persona Christi_ to
>effect the forgiveness of sins by sacramental absolution.
    
    	See JN 20:21+ as previously referenced.
    
>None of this jives with Scripture.
    
    	Change that to "selected scripture" and you could be correct,
    	for I've shown you Scripture that supports what you question.

>Also, to be saved in the view of Rome, you must be a member of the Rc church
>to be saved (not all Catholics believe this). 
    
    	Not even Rome believes this.  Support has already been given
    	in this conference to show this -- and I'm sure that it was
    	entered after you started participating here.
    
>I don't know about you, but I don't
>want a salvation thats endurance depends on my merit of behavior.
    
    	I suppose, then, that you approve of Carnal Christianity --
    	the belief that since I'm saved I can break the rules because
    	by my professed Christianity I am already saved.
    
    	Besides, it's not specifically the behavior, but where your
    	heart is.  That's what matters.  

>At the council of Trent (which was poorly attended) 
    
    	Hey!  I was there!  There wasn't an empty seat in the theater!
    	I was relegated to SRO.  How can you say that it was poorly
    	attended?!?  
    
    	:^)
    
>It's a convient RC myth that they were the first and true church. in truth,
>there were other sects operating at the time, but when Rome underminded 
>Christ by warping his church, the other sects were destroyed.
    
    	Christ Himself said that even the gates of Hell would not prevail 
    	against His Church.  If these other sects were destroyed, then
    	He must not have had them in mind!

    RE: .27 > "What about those lost and going to hell as a result of > 
    misinformation?"
    
>    Hmmm...well, in Romans it refers to people who haven't heard the gospel
>    being held accountable for the knowledge of God that He Himself
>    instilled in us.  Everyone is still accountable.  And certainly, these
    
    Jill, I understand this... BUT you have generations of RCs who are
    trusting their mothers and fathers to teach them "Truth" and this truth
    is being counted on through catechism.  People in the catholic church
    have not been taught to rely totally on the Bible for instruction, but
    on the traditions of the church and the Bible.  This has caused for
    many a misinformed member.  I disagree with many of the teachings of
    the catholic church i.e., infant baptism.  But to me that is not
    essential to salvation, therefore I even allowed my sons to be baptized
    in the catholic church at my husband's request.
    
    To me your note reads as though you are minimizing the fact that people
    are being led astray and possibly  going to hell.  I don't believe 
    that is what you wanted to project though.
    
    
>    RC have the Bible.  And certainly, I'm sure that the teachings of the
>    RC were available to them in authorized book form.  Are you so sure
    
    In my husband's family I have not seen a Bible anywhere.  These people
    are "devout" in their rituals and traditions of the catholic church,
    but they do not read a Bible at home or take one to church... they do
    have a "book of prayers" that they read though.
    
    
>    they haven't made their choice?  And how exactly do we explain RC who
>    are true converts of the gospel?
    
    They didn't even know their was a choice.  They are just doing what
    they were taught traditionally to do since their infant baptism gives
    them status as a Christian.  The deity of Mary has been a very sore
    subject between them and I.  As I give credence to Mary as the mother
    of Jesus and as a virtuous woman, I do not however, give her credance
    as a person who never sinned.  They do... they also don't believe that
    Jesus had any siblings at all.  Mary never had sex with Joseph or
    conceived other children.
    
    
>    I have a friend who was saved in the midst of a cult.  The gospel was
>    there albeit veiled in a bunch of junk they added.  She was totally
>    committed there and one day the Holy Spirit told her to look up and
>    look around during prayer time and He opened her eyes to what these
>    guys were really doing.  She left and never went back and has been in
>    solid Bible-preaching churches every since. God judges the heart, He
>    knows those who are sincerely seeking Him.
    
    Praise God, Hallelujah!  However, knowing the diverse kinds of people
    [i.e., intellect levels, etc] do you truly believe all persons in the
    same situation would find the Truth?
    
    Nancy
    

    Jay,
    
    I agree with John, I do believe that these are falsehoods.  I think the
    problem lies back in the method of communication and teaching of the
    the "truths" that John has brought forth.
    
    I, too, Praise God for John's relentless pursuit of correcting the
    falsehoods of many beliefs about catholicism, even if professed
    catholics fall in that category.  To be honest, I wish I had John here
    with me to talk to my ex-husband.  It would certainly, help he and I to
    come to some better terms regarding Christianity.
    
    Hey John, when you coming to Santa Clara?
    
    Nancy

The Catholic Church's doctrine on salvation, from the Bible:

[continue in grace, else be pruned] Romans 11:21
"Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.  For if God did not spare the natural
branches, he will not spare you either.  Consider therefore the kindness
and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you,
provided that you continue in his kindness.  Otherwise, you also will be
cut off. " (Romans 11:21)  

[danger of Hell] Matthew 5:22
"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and
anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who
is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment.  Again, anyone who says
to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin.  But anyone who says,
'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." (Matthew 5:22)

[Eye, hand, & Hell] Matthew 5:29
"If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away.  It is
better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be
thrown into hell.  And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and
throw it away.  It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for
your whole body to go into hell."  (Matthew 5:29)

[fear of rejection, prize] 1 Cor 9:24
1 Cor 9:24: "Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one 
gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.  Everyone who competes 
in the games goes into strict training.  They do it to get a crown that will 
not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.  Therefore I do 
not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the 
air.  No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to 
others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize."

[Paul not obtained] Philippians 3:10
Philippians 3:10: "I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and
the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,
and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.  Not that I have
already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to
take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.  Brothers, I do not
consider myself yet to have taken hold of it.  But one thing I do: Forgetting
what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal
to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus."

[Paul does not judge himself] 1 Cor 4:1
1 Cor 4:1: "So then, men ought to regard us as servants of Christ and as those
entrusted with the secret things of God.  Now it is required that those who
have been giving a trust must prove faithful.  I care very little if I am
judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself.  My
conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent.  It is the Lord who
judges me.  Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait til the
Lord comes.  He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose
the motives of men's hearts.  At that time each will receive his praise from
God."

On general salvation:

[we disown him, he disowns us] 2 Tim 2:13
2 Tim 2:13 "If we died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we
will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will disown us; if we are
faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself."

[Continue in hope] Col 1:22
Col 1:22: "But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through
death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from
accusation -- if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved
from the hope held out in the gospel."

[Persevere & you will save yourself] 1 Tim 4:15f
1 Tim 4:15f: "Be diligent in these matters; give yourself wholly to them, so
that everyone may see your progress.  Watch your life and doctrine closely.
Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your
hearers."

[diligence to make hope sure] Hebrews 6:9
Hebrews 6:9: "Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident 
of better things in your case -- things that accompany salvation.  God is not 
unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you 
hae helped his people and continue to help them.  We want each of you to show 
this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure.  We do 
not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and 
patience inherit what has been promised."

[share...if we hold firmly] Hebrews 3:12
Hebrews 3:12: "See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving
heart that turns away from the living God.  But encourage one another daily, as
long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's
deceitfulness.  We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end
the confidence we had at first."

[unfruitful land burned] Hebrews 6:7f
Hebrews 6:7 "Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces
a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But
the land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of
being cursed. In the end it will be burned." (v. 7-8)

[shrink back = destruction] Hebrews 10:38
Hebrews 10:38 "But my righteous one will live by faith.  And if he shrinks
back, I will not be pleased with him.  But we are not of those who shrink back
and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved."

[he who perseveres receives crown] James 1:12
James 1:12.  "Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he
has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to
those who love him."

[we must walk as Jesus did] 1 John 2:3
1 John 2:3: "We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.
The man who says, 'I know him,' but does not do what he commands is a liar,
and the truth is not in him.  But if anyone obeys His word, God's love is
truly made complete in him.  This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims
to live in him must walk as Jesus did."  

[those who do right are children of God] 1 John 3:10
1 John 3:10: "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the
children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child
of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."

[love necessary for salvation] 1 John 3:14
1 John 3:14: "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love
our brothers.  Anyone who does not love remains in death.  Anyone who hates his
brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in
him. This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us.
And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.  If anyone has material
possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the
love of God be in him?  Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but
with actions and in truth."  

[obedient live in him] 1 John 3:24
1 John 3:24: "Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them.  And
this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us."

[man who does God's will lives forever] 1 John 2:17
"The world and it desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives
forever." (1 John 2:17)

[heard/remain in Christ] 1 John 2:24
1 John 2:24: "See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you.
If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.  And this is
what he promised us--even eternal life."

[J. Baptist on repentance, tree/fire] Luke 3:7
Luke 3:7: "John said to the crowds coming to be baptized by him,  'You brood of
vipers!  Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Produce fruit in
keeping with repentance. . .  The ax is already at the root of the trees, and
every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into
the fire.'  'What shall we do then?' the crowd asked. John answered, 'The man
with two tunics should share with him who has none, and the one who has food
should do the same.' Tax collectors also came to be baptized. 'Teacher,' they
asked, 'what should we do?'  'Don't collect any more than you are required
to,' he told them.  Then some soldiers asked him, 'And what should we do?' He
replied, 'Don't extort money and don't accuse people falsely--be content with
your pay.'"

[vine/branches; fruit/fire] John 15:5
John 15:5: "I am the vine, you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I
in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone
does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers;
such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in
me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given
you.  This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing
yourselves to be my disciples."

[confess/saved] Romans 10:10
Romans 10:10: "For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified,
and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."

[Lacking in Christ's suff] Col 1:24
Col 1:24: "Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my
flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of
his body, which is the church."

[die by iniquity, live by practicing justice] Ezekiel 33:18f
Ezekiel 33:18f: "When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits
iniquity, then he shall die in it.  But when the wicked turns from his
wickedness and practices justice and righteousness, he will live by them."
(Not NIV)

[repent, God will heal the land] 2 Chr 7:14
2 Chr 7:14: "[If] my people who are called by My name humble themselves and
pray, and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from
heaven, will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

[Forsake wickedness, God will pardon] Isaiah 55:6-7
Isaiah 55:6-7 "Seek the Lord while he may be found; call on him while he is
near. Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him
turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will
freely pardon."

[penance avoids punishment] Jonah 3:10
Jonah 3:10: "When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil
ways, he had compassion and did not bring up on them the destruction he had
threatened." 

[prove repentance by deeds] Acts 26:20
Acts 26:20: "First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all
Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn
to God and prove their repentance by their deeds."  (This is Paul speaking)

[he who does not obey shall not see life] John 3:36
John 3:36: "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not
obey the Son shall not see life." (Not NIV)

[salvation for all who obey] Hebrews 5:8f
Hebrews 5:8f: "Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he
suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for
all who obey him . . ."

[rich young ruler] Matthew 19:23f
Matthew 19:23f (the parable of the rich young ruler): "Then Jesus said to his
disciples, 'I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the
kingdom of heaven.  Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through
the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.' When the
disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, 'Who then can be
saved?' Jesus looked at them and said, 'With man this is impossible, but with
God all things are possible.'"

[unmerciful servant] Matthew 18:21-35
Matthew 18:21-35: Parable of the unmerciful servant. "In anger his master
turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he
owed.  This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you
forgive your brother from your heart." (v. 34-35)

[hear & act, house built on rock] Matthew 7:24
Matthew 7:24: Everyone who hears these words of mine, and acts on them, is 
like a man who builds his house on rock.

[firm till end will be saved] Matthew 10:22
Matthew 10:22 "All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to 
the end will be saved."

[charity covers] 1 Peter 4:8
1 Peter 4:8: "Charity covers over a multitude of sins" (cf. Jas 5:20)

[faith working through love] Gal 5:6
Gal 5:6: "For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any
value.  The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love."

[those who keep commandments and loved] John 14:21
John 14:21 RSV: "He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who
loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will
love him and manifest myself to him."

[love & commandments] John 14:15
John 14:15 RSV: "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

[falling away] 2 Pt 2:20f
2 Peter 2:20f: "If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our
Lord and Savior Jesus christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they
are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning."

[take cross, deny family, seek/lose life] Matthew 10:38
[parable of sower] Matthew 13:3-23
[wide and narrow gate] Matthew 7:13-14
[work out] Phil 2:12
[Hope for do not see] Rom 8:24
[Helmet hope for] 1 Th 5:8
[mortal sins] Gal 5:19, 1 Cor 6:9, Eph 5:5, James 5:12
[fall under sentence of devil] 1 Tim 3:6
[take heed] 1 Cor 10:12]
[if hold fast] 1 Cor 15:1
[God is not mocked] Gal 6:7-10
[Sheep/Goats] Matt 25:31
[word we preach is near] Rom 10:8
[HS to those who obey] Acts 5:32
[watch & pray] Matt 24:42
[hold on so no one will take crown] Rev 3:11
[fight...take hold of eternal life] 1 Tim 6:12
[so that no one will fall by...disobedience] Heb 4:11
[I have finished race] 2 Tim 4:7
[overcomers (2nd death)] Rev 2:11
[Examine if you are in the faith] 2 Cor 13:5
[fallen short of promise] Heb 4:1
[Lord, Lord] Matt 25:30
[Yoke] Matt 11:38f
[penitent publican] Luke 18:13
[call to obedience] Rom 1:6
[eternal punishment for those who do not obey] 2 Thes 1:18
[obedience of faith] Rom 1:5 (not NIV)
[prepared us to do good works] Eph 2:10
[tree/fruit/fire] Matt 3:10
[God listens to those who do will] John 9:31
[those who obey are justified] Rom 2:13
[slaves of those whom we obey] Rom 6:16
[Christ in you unless you fail test] 2 Cor 13:5
[fruit of righteousness] Phil 1:11
[swear...condemned] James 5:12

From: Eric James Ewanco <[email protected]>

    
    Well Jay & Nancy & John (and whoever else may happen along),
    
    First off I was under the assumption that most RC have bibles.  Most I
    knew owned them. John, would you say most RCs have access themselves to
    the Bible?  I can't imagine that RCs have not heard that the Bible is
    the word of God.  Could be me naivety.  I go to christian bookstores
    and see the RC Bible in the stores.  I see that they sell.  Surely,
    especially in this country, they have access to them.  I think just
    like in Protestant churches that there will always be those who want to
    be (spoon)fed and always those who will be willing to study for
    themselves testing what they have been taught against the word of God. 
    Those who are spoonfed always run the risk of not being told, hearing,
    or interpretting what was said incorrectly.
     
    I am not minimizing the fact that people are being led astray and
    possibly going to hell.  My point is that this can happen in all
    denominations and instead of just ragging endlessly about how bad such
    and such denomination is, we should instead spread the truth of the
    gospel.  That doesn't sounds to me like I'm minimizing that people are
    being led astray, it sounds to me like I meant it that lets make sure
    we're leading people to The Way.  Let's make sure we're shouting out
    the truth and not just slamming their rituals and traditions!  I mean
    we all have rituals!  Let's make sure they have TRUTH!
    
    And Nancy you've been around me long enough to know and I've restated
    in this very string so that everyone new knows that I do not agree with
    everything the RC church says, but I said let's promote the TRUTH that
    we do agree on!  Let's help our brothers and sisters in the RC church
    who are trying to change it from within to spread the TRUTH where we
    are!  We are the holy catholic church and we are responsible that the
    world is told the TRUTH.  What I've mostly seen here are things that
    our RC brothers have quickly dismissed not only with official teachings
    of the church but also with scripture.  Again I'm not saying I agree
    wholeheartedly with everything any RC has ever said, I'm just saying I
    think our response in the past of ridiculing has only added to the
    problem.  Lets change our ways and let all people (RCs included) hear
    the truth which maybe will make them question what they've heard and
    start looking in the Good Book for themselves.  The more RC christians
    there are, the better chance of changes in the problem areas coming to
    the RC church.
    
    Love in Christ, 
    Jilla

    >My point is that this can happen in all
    >denominations and instead of just ragging endlessly about how bad
    >such and such denomination is, 
    
    Amen to that... however, I'm closely associated to those who are
    catholics that I love and am seeing them led astray.  I have an
    emotional as well as spiritual concern.  
    
    >we should instead spread the truth of the gospel.  
    
    Amen Sis, and you're integrity was never questioned regarding this.
    
    Nancy

    
    RE: .50
    
    Hi Nancy & thanks.
    
    >however, I'm closely associated to those who are catholics that I
    >love and am seeing them led astray.  I have an emotional as well as
    >spiritual concern.
    
    That's great!  I believe concern comes through as long as your
    speaking the truth in love and not just listing the faults of the
    RC church.  It's good that you have access to RCs.  That's my 
    message in a nutshell.  Just a nut today I guess!
    :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) 
    

    Jilla,

    (off topic)

>    message in a nutshell.  Just a nut today I guess!

    I thought *I* was the nut?

>    If because of extra-biblical teachings a new sincere believer comes
>    to know Christ as an abstract entity that shows up in a sacrament
>    vs. a living personal Christ that they can have a direct fellowship
>    with (as taught in the bible), um...thats ok eh?

What is this baloney?  What is your motivation for spreading such
misrepresentations of the Catholic Faith?

The Catholic Church does not teach this baloney you've written about Christ
being only an abstract entity.

Catholics are called to each establish a personal relationship with Christ.
This has recently been emphasized by Cardinal Law in an address to his
presbyters.  In a life of prayer, and as part of one of the most common of
Roman Catholic prayers, Catholics pray "Oh -my- Jesus, save us from the
fires of hell, and lead all souls to heaven, especially those most in
need of thy Mercy."

In devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, Catholics pray, "O Sacred Heart
of Jesus! living and lifegiving fountain of eternal life, infinite treasure
of the Divinity, glowing furnace of love!  Thou art my refuge and my
sanctuary.  O my adorable and loving Saviour! consume my heart with that
fire wherewith thine is ever inflamed; pour down on my soul those graces
which flow from thy love, and let my heart be so united with thine that
my will may be conformed to thine in all things."

No, Jesus is not abstract in Catholic Churches.  He is right there, larger
than life, reigning as Christ victorious from the Tree of Salvation, drawing
all people to himself.

/john

Dear All,

As a silent observer who has only ever read this space I really felt 
really motivated to put finger to keypad.

i) can we stop and think of the many silent non christian readers who 
browse through these notes, and contemplate the conclusions that they may 
be coming to about the difference christianity can make to a life????  No 
christian is perfect but surely we can argue/ debate nicely.

ii) as a born Catholic who began dating a Protestant I can vouch for the 
fact that many Protestants have been taught blatent falsehoods concerning 
the Catholic Church - and these falsehoods breed dislike, further 
misunderstandings and fear.  You still may not believe in the doctrine of 
the Catholic Church but at least have the decency to refer to official 
publications of the Church before you start critisizing untruths.

iii) as a child I went through a complete Catholic school education, had a 
solid Catholic home (where parents have about the same indepth knowledge 
as John) and even went through a course of the RCIA (introductory adult 
education for RC's).  NONE of the "official" courses truly told me what 
the Catholic church believes.  That is NOT the Church's COMPLETE fault.  
Sure - maybe some measures should have been in place to prevent it 
happening.. but it is a simple fact that an organization the size of the 
Catholic Church cannot hope to control what is happening in every Catholic 
institution at the four corners of the globe.  I still feel that the 
powers that be are somewhat culpable - however I think this conference is 
a pretty good example of how misunderstandings of beliefs can be 
perpetuated if people will not resource the correct documents to obtain 
their teachings.

iv) I am not a practicing Catholic - I do not believe many of the 
teachings of the Catholic Church...HOWEVER I do respect the Catholic 
Church.  Even though you may question the doctrines of the Church, you 
will find that they are based on references in the Scripture.  You may not 
agree with the interpretation but the teachings are not a fabrication from 
nowhere.  I too have a problem with the misconceptions that surround the 
Church - and I will argue long and hard with knowledgeable people.  At the 
end of the day..and this is MY perception... I believe that Catholics (who 
follow the true teachings of the Church) and Protestants alike are heading 
in the same direction but taking very different paths.  I personally 
believe that while many of the Catholic teachings were originally 
developed to help the believer come to God - many are too open to 
misinterpretation.  E.g. the Mary argument and for a more specific example 
the title used "Mary the Mother of God"  - the intent of this title was to 
confirm the belief of the Trinity.  The confusion of the title has led to 
Mary being considered as a demi God herself.
MY opinion is that the Catholic Church has a framework which was intended 
to bring people to God.  I do not believe that the framework is essential 
to salvation - and I disagree with the interpretation of the scripture 
that supports some of the elements of the framework... but that is a long 
way from saying that Catholics are completely wrong and evilly motivated 
for what they believe.

I am now in the situation where my parents are Catholic, my partner's 
parents are a specific Protestant denomination, and we as a couple are a 
different Protestant denomination.  We can't all be one hundred percent 
right - We are all saved.  We all have Christ as the head of our lives and 
in eternity the differences will disappear.  When the arguments get 
heated...and they DO!!...we have to stop and focus on what is important - 
the saving power and love of Jesus Christ and the recognition of God as 
our focus in life.

Lou.

    Thank you Lou

    (and welcome to non-readonly-ship)

Amen Lou!

  And as Harry said - thank you!

						Andrew

    .26
    
    Amen, Amen, Amen, Amen, Amen. That was what I was singing when I read
    your note. Jilla Thanks, now I see we are in a Christian conference.
    Brother
    Peter

    >When the arguments get 
    >heated...and they DO!!...we have to stop and focus on what is important
    >the saving power and love of Jesus Christ and the recognition of God as 
    >our focus in life.
    
    
    Worth repeating! Amen!  Lou and welcome!!!  Please don't go silent
    again, okay? :-)
    

    <<< Note 778.41 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" >>>

>    People in the catholic church
>    have not been taught to rely totally on the Bible for instruction, but
>    on the traditions of the church and the Bible.  This has caused for
>    many a misinformed member.  
    
    	This is especially true when the people are misinformed about
    	those traditions and teachings!
    
>>    they haven't made their choice?  And how exactly do we explain RC who
>>    are true converts of the gospel?
>    
>    They [husband's family] didn't even know their was a choice.  
    
    	Jill wasn't talking about your husband's family but those "who
    	are true converts of the gospel".  Yes, they exist!  The issue
    	of "Catholic misinformation" should specifically addresse those 
    	Catholics who are not, and I think that the focus here has been 
    	misdirected to the non-catholics whose mis-impressions are daily 
    	reinforced by those Catholics (in my estimation a significant 
    	proportion) who are themselves misinformed.
    
>    they also don't believe that
>    Jesus had any siblings at all.  Mary never had sex with Joseph or
>    conceived other children.
    
    	The idea of Mary's lifelong chastity does not have to mean that
    	Jesus had no siblings.  One theory I heard was that Joseph was
    	a widower, and he brought to the Holy Family his children from
    	the previous marriage.  I see no Biblical support for Joseph and
    	Mary's lifelong chastity, but then again I haven't searched for
    	it either.  To me it is an issue that simply doesn't matter, and
    	it changes absolutely NOTHING about Jesus Himself.

    	re .43
    
    	Hey, Jay.  It looks like you're bucking for conference anti-christ!
    
    	:^)
    
    	(You should have saved that reply for .666 if we ever get that far!)

                       <<< Note 778.61 by CSC32::KUHN >>>

>    Top that my friend!!!!!! 

    	OK.  
    
    	At least my mother doesn't sew red 'A' letters on her blouses.
    	You mother said it was because her real name is Alice, but I
    	don't buy it.

	Time for an auto-da-f�.



P.S.: _Maximum_ penalty an auto-da-f� could impose was life imprisonment;
      any further penalties were the province of the state, not the church,
      and were imposed later in a separate state proceeding.

   I am sorry, but if this is supposed to be joking, I think its
   gotten to be in pretty poor taste, especially the adultry accusation.  
   John I don't know what your note said so this isn't reference to it, 
   but perhaps Joe & Jay could delete their last 2 or 3 notes for us all.  
   What do you say guys?  How about a truce?

   Leslie

    Re: .46-.48
    
    John, where is the assurance of salvation according to 1 John 5:13,
    Ephesians 2:8-9, and Titus 3:3-7?  Your posts seem to have mainly
    "works" overtones.
    
    thanks,
    Mike

                       <<< Note 778.65 by CSC32::KUHN >>>

>    well, at least I don't read Macabeas I or II. 
    
    	Well, at least I can spell it!!!    :^)
    
>    For those keeping track at home. The notes between Joe and me are in
>    the spirit of fellowship. 
    
    	I want to confirm this.
    
    	Note the constant use of smileys on my part.  I don't use them
    	without purpose.  Jay and I work together, and we get along
    	quite well, both at work and in notes.
    
    	These discussions of late were getting really heavy, and we
    	just thought we would lighten things up a bit.
    
    	I don't see the need to delete these -- especially given the
    	explanations posted here.

    	re .67 --
    
    	A great example of why we can't rely solely on individual
    	scriptural snippets.

>    	A great example of why we can't rely solely on individual
>    	scriptural snippets.
    
    Not just snippets.  The Pauline epistles are laced with the theme of
    justification by faith.  The entire letter written to your church at
    Rome is *THE* crowning work on the topic.
    
    Salvation by works is not a Biblical theme.
    
    Mike

          <<< Note 778.71 by OUTSRC::HEISER "watchman on the wall" >>>

>    Not just snippets.  
    
    	I was speaking to both sides of the argument, Mike, not just 
    	yours.
    
>    Salvation by works is not a Biblical theme.

    	Salvation by works ALONE is not a Biblical theme.  Examples
    	of the need for works was, by your own admission, emphasized
    	in the multitude of snippets in .46-48.  But by their very
    	presence we see why the argument can be made that salvation 
    	by faith ALONE is also not a Biblical theme in spite of snippets
    	that can be used to say it is.

    Nope.  Salvation by works in any sense of the word is not Biblical.  It
    is by faith only.  There's is nothing you can do to provide atonement
    for yourself.
    
    this is a clear case in misunderstanding Christian service, which
    follows salvation.
    
    Mike

>    Nope.  Salvation by works in any sense of the word is not Biblical.

And it also is not Catholic teaching, either.

However, obeying God's commandments _is_ Biblical, and God commands us to
do works.  Deliberately disobeying God is sin.  Turning away from God
destroys the relationship with him, and puts our eternal life at risk.

/john

    	Then I suppose, Mike, that we are to ignore the snippets about
    	the beattitudes, the good samaritan, "whatsoever you do", the
    	fig tree that bears no fruit, and so many others like them.
    
    	You are correct, Mike, in saying that salvation is not possible
    	without faith.  I do not take issue with that.  And did I say
    	anything about atonement at all?  Where did that come from?
    
    	And how did I get into this rathole with you?
    
    	All I said, and I still contend it, is that theology by
    	scripture snippet will also not get you salvation!

Professing faith is, in itself, a work.

    Okay, let me clarify this to another degree.  There does not exist a
    single passage in the Bible stating that an unbeliever or a believer has 
    to work to be saved.  If you disagree, post BCV and we'll discuss it.
    
    Mike

    
    Mikey,
    
    So far I hadn't heard any disagreement.  I think everyone has said:
    
    We're saved through grace (Eph 2:8,9)
    but that faith without works is dead (James 2:26)
    
    So to recap we are saved through GRACE unto good works.
    
    Jilla

    >    So to recap we are saved through GRACE unto good works.
    
    Works has nothing to do with salvation.

    	.78  Jay
    
>    Do you mean pulling things out of context? or are you talking about
>    protestant theology in general. 
    
    	I'm referring to neither, and both.  (Talk about being a rat!)
    
    	I'm talking about granularizing the Scriptures into individual
    	BCVs as if each is a total lesson in and of itself.  Maybe
    	that is "pulling things out of context", though even "out of
    	context" (or more accurately, standing alone) many scripture
    	snippets *ARE* still valuable and meaningful.  I just don't see 
    	them as the total word in isolation, and quite often we can grab 
    	two very important statements and find that they contradict each
    	other.  Jill has done that for us in .80.
    
    	.79  Mike
    
>    Okay, let me clarify this to another degree.  There does not exist a
>    single passage in the Bible stating that an unbeliever or a believer has 
>    to work to be saved.  If you disagree, post BCV and we'll discuss it.
    
    	Thanks to Jill I'll point to James 2:26.  But even if I didn't
    	have that one, I've already given you general references to
    	the beattitudes, the good Samaritan, the barren fig tree.  Maybe
    	you don't see these calling us to do good works.  I do.  Can
    	you say that the Gospels in general (no BCV whatsoever) encourage
    	us to do good works?  Or do they condone the absence of good
    	works?  Sometimes BCV doesn't do justice to the message of the
    	Gospel, and that is precisely the point I was making about
    	snippets all those replies ago.  The Gospels are Jesus' life.
    	They are not merely a collage of Confucian quips.  They are not
    	biographies or tales about His life. They *are* His life.  Living 
    	immersed in a fishbowl of fortune cookie quotes means that you
    	can miss the forest for the trees.
    
    	And, of course, the next level of granularity is the debate
    	over the meaning of specific words within specific snippets.
    	Don't get me started on that!  When we do that, not only are
    	we missing the forest for the trees, but we then start missing
    	the trees for the leaves!

    
    {Sigh}  let me try to s-p-e-l-l what I mean out to avoid any
    confusion Mikey.
    
    I believe salvation is believing in the redemptive work of Jesus
    on the cross at Calvary and confessing that Jesus Christ is your
    Lord.  A relationship is implied therein.  
    
    Now...a result of that relationship is that God starts to change
    your heart and your thoughts, actions, and speech begin to change
    to reflect whose you are.  You also become atuned to doing the
    Father's will just as Jesus did His will.  You don't have to
    work for salvation.  However, when you are saved, works are a
    natural result or outpouring of our faith; of our changed heart.
    As Christians we should be bearing the fruits of the Spirit.  
    
    Jilla
    

OK, so what does the bible say about someone who

	believes and is saved

and then

	goes about his life as before, in selfishness and sin.

/john

    Quiet frankly John, I believe that a person can have a head knowledge
    and not truly be saved.  
    
    I think many a person who says they believe, has never come to a place
    of real faith.   Those who have truly put their faith and trust in the
    Lord, will bear fruit.
    
    The question that I've always had is what happens when has truly done
    this, but then goes through a period of rebellion?  If they died in
    their rebellion would they go to heaven?  I think so, otherwise we'd
    not have our works tested in heaven by the fire.
    
    Nancy

    	Well, what does it say in "Macabeas", Jay?  :^)
    
    
    	BTW, nice p-name!

	Why is it that if one is saved, but lives their life the way they
believe is correct, are in rebellion? Can't they just be wrong? :-)

>>OK, so what does the bible say about someone who
>>	believes and is saved
>>and then goes about his life as before, in selfishness and sin.
>
>     what is the official Catholic teaching on this? 
    
1 John 5:16.

Discuss Antinominianism, the view that God's grace has freed Christians
from the need to observe God's laws.

Anne Hutchinson was accused of this by the Puritans, whom she had accused
of legalism.

The General Court of the Commonwealth tried her, found her guilty of
antinomianism, and banished her.  She hid for a while in Roxbury, but
was then formally excommunicated.  She then left with her followers.

This was how Rhode Island was founded.

/john

    re: .82
    
    Jay, in addition, James, the brother of Christ, was writing to
    Christians (i.e., already saved).
    
    Mike

    Re: .84
    
    Thank you, Jill.

>OK, so what does the bible say about someone who
>
>	believes and is saved
>
>and then
>
>	goes about his life as before, in selfishness and sin.
    
    John, I don't believe this happens in the life of a true believer.  I
    haven't found BCV yet that says a true believer can lose their
    salvation.  I use to believe you could before being grounded in the
    Word.  Please do not confuse this with the 5-points of Calvinism, which 
    I believe the Bible rejects.  Romans 6-8 pretty much answers your
    question.
    
    Mike

>    Quiet frankly John, I believe that a person can have a head knowledge
>    and not truly be saved.  
    
    Nancy, what about the church of Sardis (Revelation 3)?  They professed
    Christ but didn't possess Him.  Maybe it is as you say.  Even though
    they were still considered by the Holy Spirit to be a church, they
    appear to be heading to the Great Tribulation and are not called
    "overcomers" (i.e., saved) - just a group within are.
    
    Mike

    Re: Maccabees
    
    I always thought 2 Maccabees 15:37-39 to be provocative.
    
    Mike

>>OK, so what does the bible say about someone who
>>
>>	believes and is saved
>>
>>and then
>>
>>	goes about his life as before, in selfishness and sin.
>    
>    John, I don't believe this happens in the life of a true believer.

You don't believe that true believers can continue to sin?

Do you think you're a true believer?

	"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and
	 the truth is not in us.  If we confess our sins, he is
	 faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse
	 us from all unrighteousness."   1 John 1:8-9

We seem to have a very different view of soteriology.  The bible teaches of
a God who calls us to declare our faith in him -- to believe and be saved --
and that we grow in faith ("increase our faith") and grace, and gradually
learn more and more to avoid sin.  However, no matter how strong our faith,
we will all fall into sin again and again, but less so as we open ourselves
to God's grace.

The Nestorian heresy says that we are only saved when we _are_ like Christ;
i.e. "the train of salvation does not stop for sinners".  The bible says
that we are saved when we believe, and that God's grace can work in us to
make us believe more and sin less, and daily be more and more like Christ.

/john

    Theology Snarf!

    |>    John, I don't believe this happens in the life of a true believer.
|
|You don't believe that true believers can continue to sin?

    I misunderstood you, John.  I thought you were referring to someone
    deliberately turning their back on Christ despite a verbal commitment.

    I agree with what you wrote.  We're not perfect.
    
    Mike

>    Ok, seriously, can you explain the true role of canon law,

What do you mean?  Canon law contains the organizational rules for the
Church.  There is a Code for the Latin Roman Catholic Church and a Code
for the Eastern Roman Catholic Churches.  I'm sure almost all Protestant
Churches have the same sorts of things.

>or paragraphs like 2181 in the catechism in relation to how you are
>justified ect. or whatever.

What do you mean?  Paragraph 2181 speaks of the obligation of Christians
to attend the weekly Eucharist.  The bible is clear that this weekly
celebration is central act of Christian worship, and the historical
records are clear that this requirement has existed since apostolic
times, and that Christians obeyed it under threat of death from the
Roman authorities if discovered.  Paragraph 2181 speaks against the
rejection of the fellowship of believers in the weekly gathering,
referring to it as a grave act of separation from God if it is done
deliberately and consistently and unrepentantly.

But paragraph 2181 has nothing to do with justification.

>or, the thing on birth control, are you in sin if you don't follow it?

While there has never been an infallible pronouncement on the Roman Catholic
doctrine on birth control, Roman Catholics are obliged to follow the formal
teachings of the Church's official teaching authority, exercised by the
Bishops in communion with each other and led by the successor of Peter
in his biblical role of confirming the brethren.

I would suggest that the Roman Catholic doctrine on sexuality be discussed
in the topic which already exists for sexuality discussions, rather than
here.  I should also point out that _all_Protestant_churches_ forbade the
use of birth control until some time in the 1930s.  Did they have some
sort of new revelation sixty years ago?

/john

RE: <<< Note 778.103 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >>>

        I am not RC, but I agree with the Pope on this one.  I believe that
        Birth Control, the active, chemically or mechanically assisted
        avoidance of procreation, is of the same spirit as fornication,
        adultery, divorce, and abortion.  It is a rejection of God's design
        of the family.

        BC pills can act as abortifacients in the early stages of
        pregnancy.

	TonyC
	

re .104

The interior disposition, which only God knows, is what determines the
actual gravity and degree of culpability for any sin.

/john

Yes.  �� 1854-1869.

/john

    Perhaps I think a bit simplistically, but the main theme of the
    Bible appears to be "Love one another".  May we come to terms with the
    idea that if I am a Lutheran and he is a Roman Catholic and she is a
    Moonie, that we are exactly where God has called us to be at this
    moment?  We need to love one another as we are--sinners, babies in
    Christ. fallible, seekers, HUMAN.  Nobody has all the answers but God. 
    God put all the answers we need in the Bible.  Love one another. 
    If you love people, you will do works.  Faith without works is dead.
    So that takes care of that.  If you love someone, you don't call them a
    fool.  If you call someone a fool, you are in danger of hellfire.  So
    that takes care of that.  You point out errors, as God commanded, in a
    loving, thoughtful way, referring to His Word as your basis.
    It really does seem that simple to me.  Are you a believer in Jesus
    Christ as your Lord and Savior?  I don't care if you are RC or Jewish
    or Presbyterian or smear blue mud in your navel, you are welcome here. 
    And if you are not a believer in Jesus Christ, you are welcome here. 
    Boy, have we got some good news for you!!

    .110
    
    :-) I like this woman!!!  

    amen  - she gives good electronic hugs too :')

       MOD ALERT!  MOD ALERT! MOD ALERT!!! :-) :-) :-)
    
    re: .110
    I lover her too :-). I only wish it was that easy and simple...
    
       > God put all the answers we need in the Bible.  Love one another.
    
         I agree here...but not all do! :-( :-( 
         Why do I feel a reply comming that will correct me on this? :-)
    
       >We need to love one another as we are--sinners, babies in
       > Christ. fallible, seekers, HUMAN.  Nobody has all the answers but
       >God.
    
        :-) :-) isn't Catholic teaching infallable? isn't the pope
                infallible in matters of faith and morals? :-) :-) :-)
    
        SEE...you've taken a side already!!! *8^) #8^) 
    
        And, are you sure we are all babes in Christ? :-) :-) :-)
    
    Sorry, keyboard got away from me. Must me one of those microsoft
    keyboards. :-)
    
    jay
    
    
    ** The previous was a a public service test of the MOD alert system.
    ** Had actual heresy been present, you would have been instructed to
    ** hit NEXT/UNSEEN and go read Calvin's Institutes. Normal noting
    ** will now continue.

    You are right, of course.  We DON'T all love one another.  But that is,
    nevertheless, the answer.  Are the Catholic teachings or the Pope
    infallible? (I know you were being facetious, and an equally facetious
    answer would be "It depends on who you ask") Insofar as they repeat or
    reflect the teachings from the Bible, they are correct.  God put the
    Pope in the position he currently occupies, thus he at least warrants
    a listen. (No, I'm not Catholic, BTW.) 
    I cannot pass judgment on the beliefs of others, since I may be way off
    the beam myself.  Each person's theology is SO intensely personal.  I
    believe that each day is the Sabbath, so I haven't complained a whole
    lot about having to work on Sunday.  That doesn't sit well with a lot
    of Christians who think someone should quit their job before working on
    the Sabbath, which for them is Sunday only.  Who's to say they are
    right or I am?  Each of us has our own Truths.  "To thine own self be
    true", so that's what I try to do.  It's between me and God, and God
    corrects me FAR more often than my Brothers and Sisters in Christ.  And
    that is as it should be, for who knows my heart better?
    Sorry for rambling like this.  I thank God that for me it boils down
    that simply.  It sure wasn't so simple getting here, however.  After
    almost forty years of hating everyone and everything, including myself,
    it is _such_ a relief to experience the outpouring and inflowing Love
    of God!! I wish everyone could feel the way I do, so I try to pass it
    along.
    		Agape, Agape, Agape
    			Renee
    
    P.S. I love all of you, too!

    Jay, to answer your question, yes, I'm sure we ALL are babes in Christ. 
    Until any of us succeed in being as knowledgable as He, as full of love
    as He, and as perfect as He, how can we be considered as anything else? 
    Of course, some of us are more advanced babes than others (I'm quite
    inpressed with Andrew, for example).  Please don't take offense, for
    none was meant.  And I love the image of ourselves as His children
    lying in His arms, looking up into that Face of love.
    			Renee

    .110
    I enjoyed reading your note:this is the ideal world and it should be that
    simple. However I think there are two factors that don't make it that
    simple for all.
    1) Love is a gift from God and must be used ALL the time. If not we let
    our pride take over. 
    2) The evil one tempts us to hate and not to love just at the time love
    is needed. 
    
    When I stand before God and expect to be rewarded for good works I
    can expect Him to ask "But did you do it in love?" if it was for
    personal gain:out of pride, ego, to score a good point, to impress people, 
    or because I didn't like to say no then I can expect no merit.
    
    There is a German word I remember always. It is FLOH (it means a flee)
    To become nearer to God we must have:  Faith 
    					   Love 
    					   Obedience 
    					   Humility
    
    These are all gifts from God to bring us near to Him. They must be
    exercised regularly otherwise they get smothered by Greed, Lust and Pride 
    

    My Brothers and Sisters in Christ--
    	I am not so simple that I don't know that this love for everyone is
    not easily achieved in this world (if achievable at all).  The Evil One
    is _always_ trying to thwart this: for us to experience this Agape is a
    slap in the face to him.  I meant that it is a goal, one that may never
    be reached in this life, but one that gives me great joy to struggle
    toward.  I only hope that people can see God's Love for them reflected
    in me.
    	I have so far to go myself--I haven't sufficient love to help the
    homeless, or AIDS victims, or do a thousand other things that perhaps I
    ought to be doing.  And yet I have already come so far, only God and
    myself know _how_ far.  But that does not deter me from making this my
    goal.  Yes, it's hard.  But it's also worth doing.

    Well, what a wonderful way to wake up to ::Christian.  Between Peter
    and Renee, I'm thoroughly blessed right down to the morrow.
    
    :-)
    
    

      Hi,
    
        I'm kind of a 'middle of the roader' here.
    
        I'm convinced that when Satan appears as an angel 
        of light and the mark of the beast movement wages,
        its initial attraction will include the call to 
        "just love one another."
    
        Unity is in the truth and it includes, according to
        Eph 3 comprehending the dimensions of agape.  When
        the corporate church has truly done so, it will be
        "filled with all the fulness of God" and will have
        a kind of unity not seen here or anywhere else in 
        this world.
    
        I guess part of my conviction is that the adage to
        love one another is wonderful, but the essence of that
        adage is packed with a meaning that we fall far short 
        of and that will not be known until that wonderful 
        prophecy in Eph. 3.
    
        With the above, I do not intend to advocate some discussions
        that have taken place; I'm just trying to offer some balance.
    
        That's all!
    
        Nice comments Renee and welcome!
    
    							Tony

    re:  .121
    
>   For the record, my __personal__ belief, [of which expect no one else
>   to believe, except my cat] is that God did not put the pope in office,
    
    Hey, Jay, 
    
    According to Paul, God put *all* governments in place, and John Paul
    certainly is in the government of the Roman Catholic Church.  Doesn't
    it then follow that God put him there?  And if that's not enough,
    Vatican City has status in the world community of nations as a separate
    state (to issue passports, visas, etc.)
    
    I don't fully understand Papal Infalibility enough to comment upon its
    merit, but it's pretty clear to me that God put John Paul where he is.  
    
    If for no other reason, it gives us the all-time best answer to stupid
    questions:  "Is the Pope Polish?"
    
    Grins/John
              

>    reflect the teachings from the Bible, they are correct.  God put the
>    Pope in the position he currently occupies, thus he at least warrants
>    a listen. (No, I'm not Catholic, BTW.) 
    
    On what basis do you make these claims?

    God even put Saddam Hussein and Yasser Arafat in their places, but
    there are no grounds for us to warrant a listen to them.
    
    Mike

      Amen Mike,
    
        Else those three friends of Daniel erred by refusing to bow
        down to that statue!!
    
    							Tony

    Mike, Tony--
    Thank you for the added dimension, however, I did not say we should put
    the Pope (or Sadam Hussein or Yaasir Arafat) above God, only that we
    should listen--learn what we can, test what they say by God's word, and
    discard anything that does not measure up.
    Hussein and Arafat have had things to say that are interesting in light
    of prophecy, BTW, if you'll....ahem.....listen.
    I would never advocate that authorities be obeyed that tell anyone
    to bow down and worship any statue, although the Bible does say that we
    are to accept whatever authority God puts us under.  I'm sorry I cannot
    remember chapter and verse, perhaps someone can help with that.  But I
    believe that God is in control of this world, lock, stock and barrel,
    and although sometimes I wonder what He has in mind that people should
    go through such hardship and pain, I end up putting my trust in Him
    that He has it all worked out.  Even with Qaddafi and Arafat out there.

    Renee,

    (NIV - sorry ;')

    Romans 13:1

    "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there
    is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities
    that exist have been established by God."
    

    Hebrews 13:17

    "Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over
    you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will
    be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you."


    I Timothy 2:1,2

    "I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and
    thanksgiving be made for everyone - for kings and all those in
    authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness
    and holiness."


    Titus 3:1

    "Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be
    obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good,"

    Thank you very much, Harry.

      Hi,
    
        Thanks Harry for the verses.
    
        I just wanted to highlight that the verses, taken by themselves,
        might suggest that submission to worldly authority is always
        required.
    
        By adding other texts, it seems that submission to worldly 
        authority is required so long as it does not require nonsub-
        mission to God.  For example, I believe the day will eventually
        come when the world will require transgression of the 4th command-
        ment which is a call to rest from sundown Friday to sundown Satur-
        day and (also) will require rest on Sunday.
    
        (Not that I don't believe we are called to enter His rest every
        moment of our lives.)
    
        Actually, though, I am more thoughtful my other reply; the
        one on loving one another and what it really means to fully
        enter into that experience!
    
        I think in the last days there will be an extreme polarization.
        Both groups will think to be loving one another.  One group
        will do so even for their worst enemy.  The other group will
        think it God's will to exhaust their patience and persecute
        the one's who 'are the curse of God.'  (That is, loving one
        another has conditions.)
    
        That is...
    
        One group will truly comprehend agape and the other group will
        not.
    
    							God Bless,
                                
    							Tony

    amen