Conference yukon::christian_v7

Does 287.306 help?

								Andrew

    Yes, Andrew, thanks - that's exactly what I was looking for in the
    second part of my question. 
    
    Still looking for an answer on the first part, though...
    
    /John

�>   For the living know they will die but the dead know nothing;they have
�>   no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. Their
�>   love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; NEVER
�>   AGAIN WILL THEY HAVE A PART IN ANYTHING THAT HAPPENS UNDER THE SUN
						Ecclesiastes 9:5-6

�  o How does Samuel's appearance before Saul square with the passage Ben
�    quoted above?  It would appear that Samuel *did* have a part in
�    something that happened after his death. 

Hi John,

I think that the significant thing here is that Samuel did not change the 
course of events, or be any part of them, and Samuel was not present of his 
own volition.  

Whether Saul's meddling with Samuel sealed his imminent death (as it seems
from 2 Chronicles), or whether Saul would have died then anyway I don't
know, but it was Saul's action (in attempting to consult Samuel) that made
this event of significance. 

I agree it seems to come very close to crossing the Ecclesiastes verse, but
there seem to be a few fringe cases which are difficult for us to
understand from the temporal side.  Like Moses and Elijah on the mount of
transfiguration, which was clearly in line with God's will!  (allowing for
Elijah's translation...).   I don't think Elisha's posthumous miracle 
would come into this category (2 Kings 13:21)!

A similar anomaly is associated with Hebrews 9:27 'man is destined to die 
once, and after that to face judgement', yet Lazarus, Jairus daughter and 
the widow of Nain's son, all died twice, because Jesus intervened after the 
first time they died, with a miracle, raising them to life again, so they 
died naturally and physically a second time.  But these were miraculous 
exceptions to the standard, involving God's special provision which people 
would not normally experience.

Hey - I don't know if I've answered it, or made it worse! ;-)

							Andrew

    I've never really thought this subject through so I am only writing
    here a theory about Saul and Sanuels ghost that I have heard before but
    don't necessarily agree/disagree with:
    
    Some commentators (the opposite of rare tators!!) suggest that the
    witch of Endor actually brought up a demon posing as Samuel. I guess
    this brings us to the dodgy subject of spiritism and mediums and ask
    the question of them "Do they bring up the spirit of the dead or do
    they bring up a demon which poses as the spirit of the dead to fool
    those who are being sucked in to such a dangerous practise???"
    
    As I said before, I have no definite convictions/answers, this is just
    someone elses opinion
    
    Love
    Ben
    

   >Note 766.4  by REOELF::PRICEB "Deuteronomy 33:12"              
    >I've never really thought this subject through so I am only writing
    >here a theory about Saul and Sanuels ghost that I have heard before but
    >don't necessarily agree/disagree with:
    
    >Some commentators (the opposite of rare tators!!) suggest that the
    >witch of Endor actually brought up a demon posing as Samuel. I guess
    >this brings us to the dodgy subject of spiritism and mediums and ask
    >the question of them "Do they bring up the spirit of the dead or do
    >they bring up a demon which poses as the spirit of the dead to fool
    >those who are being sucked in to such a dangerous practise???"
    
    Ben,
    
     As I agree with those commentators; that it was a demon posing as 
    Samuel, I will endevor to explain why. First, looking at 1Sam 28:6
    we see God is not answering Saul. Then Saul seeks out the spirit
    medium. After telling her who he wants contacted(28:11) and hearing 
    her description of him, Saul assumes it's Samuel; but was it? 
    "Samuel" tells Saul (28:19) that Isreal would be given into Philistine
    hands and the next day Saul and his sons would be with Samuel; 
    indicating they would die in battle with the Philistines. That didn't 
    happen. Saul was wounded in battle but died of suicide. But his sons 
    did not all die, contrary to the prediction by "Samuel"; Ishbosheth
    survived 2Sam 2:8-10. If "Samuel" was speaking for God, the prophecy 
    would not have fallen short. Also, God was refusing to answer Sauls pleas.
    Hecertainly wouldn't have answered Saul via "Samuel" after Saul broke
    God's explicit law at Deut 18:10-12. Actually, we see the result of Saul's
    actions at 1 Chronicles 10:13 where it says NWT "Thus Saul died for his
    unfaithfulness with which he had acted faithlessly against Jehovah
    concerning the word of Jehovah that he had not kept and also for asking
    of a spirit medium to make inquiry." Inquiring of the dead is very
    detestable to God.
    Also, as pointed out in another note  the dead are concious of nothing;
    Ecc 9:5,10. So by following God's law against inquiring of the dead we
    are protected from deception such as Saul experienced. Messages do come
    from the spirit realm. Eph 6:12 talks of wicked spirit forces; Satan
    and his disobedient angels/demons. Like Satan they are liars and
    deceivers.
     It's truly foolish to inquire of the dead. First because it is
    displeasing to our heavenly Father and why do it? We have God to ask
    for help! He is happy to help the honesthearted(Luke 11:9-13).
    
    robin (a scarce visitor to the conference)
    

    Robin
    
    Thanks for entering that - it makes a lot of sense to me and backs up
    what I already thought was true (but didn't have the theology to back
    it up).
    
    Love
    Ben

    If - the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, and
    
    If - the Bible says
    
    	"And Samuel said to Saul..."	I Samuel 28:15 KJV
    	"Then said Samuel..."		I Samuel 28:16 KJV
    	"...the words of Samuel..."	I Samuel 28:20 KJV, then
                                                                
    Where does that leave the theories of commentators who claim otherwise?
    

           <<< YUKON::DISK$ARCHIVE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN.NOTE;2 >>>
                          -< The CHRISTIAN Notesfile >-
================================================================================
Note 766.8                        After Death?                            8 of 8
SALEM::RUSSO                                         14 lines   7-AUG-1995 13:21
                -< The Bible is God's Word; no doubt about it. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    re:-.1
    
    In Gen 3: is the account of the serpent talking to Eve; as is the case
    with Samuel: it was a deception. Satan and his followers are great
    liars and deceivers. We need to be always on guard. Today we have the
    benefit of looking back to these accounts. We see the serpent lied to
    Eve; we see Samuel was wrong regarding all of Saul's sons dying. This
    proves the words/prophesies spoken in these accounts were not from God
    as they fell short of the truth. As Isa 55:11 points out, what God says
    WILL happen.
    BTW... in the NWT 1 Samuel 28:12,15,16,20 have Samuel in " ". Is Samuel
    highlighted in any way in the KJV? and other versions? Just curious.
    
    robin

My perspective stays with .3  The general case is for a deceiving spirit to 
pose as an individual invoked through a medium.  The fear of this medium 
in 1 Samuel 28:12 was because instead of her usual experience, Samuel 
actually appeared.  Hence the explicit use of his name, as John opinted out 
in .7 .

On the death of Saul's sons, in the versions I have consulted (including
Young's literal), there is only an indication of 'sons' plural; not 
necessarily 'all'.  That would be the usual understanding of the English 
translation, but not the exclusive meaning.  I'd need a Hebrew scholar to 
get closer than that!

Robin, in these verses, Samuel is not put in any special form in any other
translation I have, and I have heard a low estimation of the accuracy of 
the NWT.  Others here can give a lot more information than I can, though.

							Andrew

   re: Note 766.9   ICTHUS::YUILLE 
    
    >My perspective stays with .3  The general case is for a deceiving spirit 
    >to pose as an individual invoked through a medium.  The fear of this 
    >medium in 1 Samuel 28:12 was because instead of her usual experience,
    >Samuel actually appeared.  Hence the explicit use of his name, as John 
    >opinted out in .7 .

    What do you think her "usual" experience was?
    As for fear; verse 12 says she began crying out but it also points out
    that she went on to say to Saul ""...Why did you trick me, when you
    yourself are Saul?"NWT. If scared it was in fear of Saul having her put
    to death(1Sam 28:9). And how do you suppose she suddenly recognized
    Saul? Did Samuel actually appear? Granted the medium "saw" him to
    describe him and both the medium and Saul heard him but vs 14 has
    Saul asking what his form is; the medium has to describe him. From the
    description Saul "recognized" that it was Samuel. I see this like my
    describing an apple to someone and they recognize it's an apple from
    the decription; they don't really have to physically see it. I may
    have missed it; is there a verse that shows Saul saw Samuel?
     
    
>On the death of Saul's sons, in the versions I have consulted (including
>Young's literal), there is only an indication of 'sons' plural; not 
>necessarily 'all'.  That would be the usual understanding of the English 
>translation, but not the exclusive meaning.  I'd need a Hebrew scholar to 
>get closer than that!
>Robin, in these verses, Samuel is not put in any special form in any other
>translation I have, and I have heard a low estimation of the accuracy of 
>the NWT.  Others here can give a lot more information than I can, though.
    
    FYI.. the NWT also uses "sons" in 1 Sam28:19 "..and tomorrow you and 
    your sons will be with me...." This low estimation you heard; have 
    you accepted this estimation or have you researched it yourself? 
    Well, at least we can agree on one word 8-)
                                               
     robin
							

Hi Robin, 

I was passing on what I had heard of this translation, as compared with
those generally accepted.  NWT is used solely by Jehovah's Witnesses, and
in the past, I have discussed issues with local JWs where doctrine hinges
on where their unique translation differs from others.  As I mentioned, 
there are those in this conference who have researched this to a much 
greater depth.

According to verse 12, it is the sight of Samuel that opens the woman's
eyes.  It is when she sees him that she realises that she is in the 
presence of no ordinary manifestation.  She has already addressed the 
point of Saul removing the mediums in verse 9, and he, by his insistence 
includes himself in any guilt.  There are examples of people being tricked 
to their death in this sort of situation, but the emphasis here seems to 
indicate that this was not her concern.

We are not told the layout of the scene; whether Samuel was hid from Saul 
by a curtain, etc.  I don't see it as significant.  In fact, I don't think 
there's too much to be gained by pressing the physical circumstances of the 
episode further, given the limited information in scripture.

					Andrew

       re: Note 766.11   ICTHUS::YUILLE
    
>We are not told the layout of the scene; whether Samuel was hid from Saul 
>by a curtain, etc.  I don't see it as significant.  In fact, I don't think 
>there's too much to be gained by pressing the physical circumstances of the 
>episode further, given the limited information in scripture.

Andrew,
    I agree, it's not significant if there was a curtain etc. The main
    issue is that Saul was disobeying God's explicite commands by seeking
    out advice via the medium. That in itself should be clear enough
    evidence that "Samuel" was not sent from God or speaking for God.
    
    robin

I agree that this was not a communication sanctioned by God in any way, and 
that Saul thereby brought judgement on himself.

								Andrew

    Andrew,
    
     Back in .3 you mention Samuel was not there of his own volition. From
    this I get the impression you think it was realy Samuel. I can't agree
    with this as I believe the dead are concience of nothing at all and are
    as sleeping. Even if you don't agree with this belief; does it make 
    sense that God would allow Samuel to be used by this medium?
    
       something to ponder,  robin

Hi Robin,

I woudn't ponder it too much!  There are more significant areas to focus on 
in God's Word than the doings of the disobedient!

�    with this as I believe the dead are concience of nothing at all and are

The dead are beyond having a conscience, because they are no longer capable
of sin.  Unless you mean that you do not believe that they are conscious?  
We've been over that one recently from Ecclesiastes, which speaks from the 
perspective of 'under the sun'.  The New Testament position is that the 
saved leave this life to be immediately present with the LORD.  This is 
clear from Paul's dilemma over the alternatives, in Philippians 1:23, and 
its context.

� does it make sense that God would allow Samuel to be used by this medium?
Where God has indicated rules, He doesn't bend them even though our 
breaking them results in trouble.  In fact, His warning is to deliver us 
from such trouble.

							Andrew

>The New Testament position is that the saved leave this life to be
>immediately present with the LORD.

Where they pray for us to the LORD.

/john

   re: Note 766.15     ICTHUS::YUILLE
    
>I woudn't ponder it too much!  There are more significant areas to focus on 
>in God's Word than the doings of the disobedient!

    There is also much to learn. 2Tim 3:16 tells us all scripture is
    beneficial. 
      
>�    with this as I believe the dead are concience of nothing at all and are

>The dead are beyond having a conscience, because they are no longer capable
>of sin.  Unless you mean that you do not believe that they are conscious?  
    you got it; dispite my typo. I meant concious. thanks for clarifying it in
    case any other readers got the wrong idea. If I knew how to go back and
    edit it I would.
    
>We've been over that one recently from Ecclesiastes, which speaks from the 
>perspective of 'under the sun'.  The New Testament position is that the 
>saved leave this life to be immediately present with the LORD.  This is 
>clear from Paul's dilemma over the alternatives, in Philippians 1:23, and 
>its context.

    I can't agree with your statement above but this probably isn't the
    right note to start discussing it. I haven't been in notes for quite a
    while until recently and I'm not sure how much time I'll have in the 
    next few days but I'll see if I can find the discussion you speak of
    regarding "under the sun". Any pointers to a note?
    
>� does it make sense that God would allow Samuel to be used by this medium?
>Where God has indicated rules, He doesn't bend them even though our 
>breaking them results in trouble.  In fact, His warning is to deliver us 
>from such trouble.

    My point. He wouldn't have used Samuel to speak for him. Which is what
    this "Samuel" implied in his speech to Saul in vs16-19. So someone/thing 
    impersonated Samuel. 
    
     robin
    

      I have looked to being with the Lord a little bit.  Maybe
      I'll go back to it.
    
      But, one thing I think is important is the idea of perspective.
    
      I mean, should the dead really be dead until resurrection,
      there is complete cessation of consciousness until that time.
      So, from the perspective of the person who dies, he is immediately
      with the Lord after death.
    
      I mean...the person dies and has no consciousness.  His next 
      conscious moment is one of seeing His Savior, i.e. being with the
      Lord.
    
      From his perspective, he is immediately with the Lord.  There is
      no passage of time, no waiting from the only perspective that
      the saints have - from their own.        
    
      As it were in a moment, they have some conscious remembrance just
      before death and a next conscious experience of beholding the face
      of Christ and being with Him forever.
    
    						Tony

    That's a good point Tony - when I sleep I am not aware of time, time
    starts again, as it were, when I wake up and often I couldn't tell you
    how long I'd slept for.
    
    Love
    Ben