Conference yukon::christian_v7

Hi Marcos,

I was reading about this over the weekend.  A doctor's report on the film
made it sound very suspect indeed.  They couldn't trace anyone associated
with the event, and the subject of the supposed autopsy resembled a human, 
with considerable defects, all known in separate individuals, though 
unlikely to occur in the same individual.  When they went into the cranium, 
the brain was described, but not actually shown until it was totally
separate from the body.  All in all, the whole thing was deemed too vague
and insubstantial. 

Bearing in mind the sort of hoaxes perpetrated to try to support the 
evolution idea, I would strongly doubt whether there is anything more than 
foolishness behind this.  And even if it were generally accepted (like the 
Piltdown man),  I would want to see how it weathered the next 20 years 
evidence!  Remember, hoaxes are intended to appear convincing, and have 
been displayed in museums as authentic for many years, before being exposed 
as rubbish.

Asking questions as to whether these are made in God's image / why they are
not made in God's image / whether they are fallen or unfallen etc makes the 
immense leap of assuming that they are actually alien intelligences with 
eternal souls.  Or at least, were before they died.  On the 'scientific'
track record, that sounds like looking for a problem for the sake of it.

The article says that it is not enough to dismiss the film as a hoax, 
because of the criminal implications.  That is rubbish.  Those guilty 
presumably think they have covered their tracks well enough - as many 
murderers do.  Including whoever killed John Kennedy (as the article 
mentioned).  They have a very long way indeed to go before anyone who is 
not merely gullible enough to want a story for its own sake will swallow 
this!

								Andrew

    I'm currently reading a book on this very subject.  The common trends
    in worldwide appearances and what the aliens are channeling/automatic 
    writing, as well as Ezekiel 1 pretty much confirm to me what I
    suspected all along.
    
    Mike

    
    As some of you know I'm taking a Cultural Anthropology class.  Recently
    we had a Electrical Engineer come and talk about his beliefs in 
    extraterrestrials.  He came equipped with photos, quotes from aliens,
    and books.  What I found the most interesting was his constant
    stressing for us to just "open our minds and knowledge would come to 
    fill it".  
    
    "Where is the wise man?  Where is the scholar?  Where is the
    philosopher of this age?  Has not God made foolish the wisdom 
    of the world?"  I Cor 1:20
    
    Jill

>    and books.  What I found the most interesting was his constant
>    stressing for us to just "open our minds and knowledge would come to 
>    fill it".  
    
 
    Wonderful..







   

    	I remember having a dream once about landing on some other
    	planet.  It had trees and atmosphere just like earth.  We
    	encountered inhabitants that looked, acted and dressed just
    	like 1990's earth people.  We mingled in without being noticed.
    
    	My curiosity was to determine if they had the same God as we did,
    	so I asked what holidays they celebrated around there.  They
    	answered that they celebrate Christmas and Easter just like
    	everyone else in the world...  I woke up after that.
    
    	It left me thinking for the rest of the day about all kinds
    	of what-ifs.  What if that were a true story?  How would they
    	know about Jesus?  (Assuming that their celebration of Easter and
    	Christmas were for the same reasons we in this conference --
    	though not necessarily the same reasons others in the world --
    	celebrate Easter and Christmas.)  Would Jesus have had to go
    	through the same thing on each inhabited planet?  Or would
    	they somehow know about what Jesus did here on this planet?

Genesis 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 


  2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face 
of the deep. and the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 




 This is what we know about God's creation, and I believe this is what we need
 to be concerned about here on earth.  Maybe He also created other life on 
 other universes we don't even know about.  I don't think we need to be 
 too worried about that, particularly when we have 150,000 people a day dieing
 on this earth, most of whom will go to their graves without Christ.




 Jim

    "...and if there's life on other planets; then I'm sure that He must
    know..."

    This phenomena, which is international in scope (Russia, Mexico, and
    Israel are current hot spots), one several common bonds that all reject
    or downplay the person, work, and nature of Jesus Christ.  
    
    Inspect the messages being relayed from the aliens and you'll see what
    I mean.  The book I'm reading on it, which I greatly recommend, is
    available from CRI and is called "UFOs in the New Age -
    Extraterrestrial Messages & the Truth of Scripture" by Bill Alnor on
    Baker books.  This Christian journalist also is a journalism professor
    at Temple University (he spoke at our church while our pastor was in
    Israel).
    
    He stated that he's the type of person that has to do his own
    investigations when writing a book and never takes anyone's word for
    anything.  He interviewed several authors who have written about this
    subject and every one of them warned him to get out while he had the
    chance.  These secular writers all admitted to heavy poltergeist and
    demonic activity because of their involvement in this research.  The
    fact that Mr. Alnor is immune is quite a testimony to the blood
    covering of Yeshua our Messiah.
    
    When you read Ezekiel 1 and Ezekiel 28, it becomes clear who the cherub
    is that appears as an angel of light in the sky.  It is also no
    coincidence that UFO-ology is the hottest thing in New Age circles
    right now.
    
    Mike

    If that is what is on the film, yes.  
    
    btw - there is no record anywhere of a Christian being abducted by
    aliens.  Another significant fact is that those who have been abducted
    all have dabbled in the occult (tarot cards, ouija boards, astrology,
    etc.) at one time in their lives.

� Also in 2 Kings 2-11 we have that: And it came to pass that, there appeared 
� a "chariot of fire", and Elias went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Note that this is not an 'alien abduction', but the rapture of a saint!  
Not only Elijah and Elisha, but the company of the prophets knew that 
Elijah was about to leave this life (2:3,5), and the visible aspect of his 
departure was God's confirmation to Elisha that he would receive the 
inheritance of Elijah's spirit.

� And was never seen again at least as Elias because as Jesus Himself said Elias
� came back as John the Baptist.

And by Jesus, Peter, John and James, in Matthew 9:4

							Andrew

    >Wow! a demon in flesh and blood, and what's better dead. 

    How do you know they're really aliens and not a supernatural
    fabrication?  Several characteristics of UFO-ology point to demonic
    activity, which is well documented by even several secular researchers. 
    The fact that true Christian researchers do not share any of the
    demonic and poltergeist harassment that secularists do is telling.
    
�> btw - there is no record anywhere of a Christian being abducted by aliens.  
�
�Huh???? You'd better tell that to some of the most well-known abductees 
�- like Betty Andreasson Luca - she's a staunch Christian and makes no bones 
�about it! 

    His children know Him and follow His voice.  Just because you say
    you're a Christian doesn't mean you are one.  The Bible is clear about
    the protection and power true Christians have because of the blood
    covering of Jesus Christ.

�Also......and this is a BIG also - ALL except one of the case studies in John 
�Mack's book "Abductions" were Christian (of course the ratio would be less if 
�you don't consider Catholics to be Christian).

    I'd be surprised if there has been an appearance of a Marian apparition 
    to a Christian as well.  The words that some of them speak (i.e.,
    the Fatima apparition) are also very telling of their source.

    Mike

    Temptation <> supernatural harassment.  

    re: .18
    
    Just a comment that may help (or may not 8^) )...
    
    In Genesis, the Nephilim are introduced to us.  The Nephilim (arguably,
    but I find compelling argument for this) were the result of the union
    between fallen angels and the "daughters of men".  These particular
    angels were later chained in the abyss for doing what God forbid (these
    may also be the fallen angels that will be released during the
    tribulation- there is mention of them being released, but I forget the
    time frame of this, to be honest).
    
    When the Bible said Mosese was perfect in his generation, it was not
    talking about literal perfection (obviously, since the Bible also says
    no man is perfect in God's sight), but one of lineage.  Satan's plan
    was to taint the gene pool, so to speak.  If he had succeeded (which
    God certainly did not allow), Jesus could not have been born as purely
    human, due to the corruption of human genetics.
    
    This, of course, is educated speculation based on the Genesis account,
    but it seems to fit.
    
    Another thing mentioned in the OT is that these fallen angels had
    broken another rule by giving the humans forbidden knowledge.  To
    extrapolate this litterally, it would explain a great deal surrounding
    archeological findings of ancient electric batteries, flying
    contraptions, the building of the great pyramids (a feat that we could not
    repeat today), and many other strangely advanced things from the
    ancient world.  Perhaps the flood had another purpose beyond the
    obvious?
    
    If the fallen angels had bestowed forbidden knowledge to the human
    population in the ancient world, why could they not fabricate things
    today that out scientists could not explain?  Why do we tend to draw
    the line between spiritual and scientific knowledge- those who have
    lived in this universe untold eons may indeed have knowledge of science
    and whatnot that would be beyond us entirely.
    
    As far as the body goes, why couldn't it be a construct?  The "UFOs"
    seem to have a penchant for gathering samples from the human and animal
    populations.  If these UFOs are 'demonic' in nature, then I suggest
    that they do not NEED to study humans- they know all about us.  The
    samples are for something else, and they have been collecting them for
    a long time, if even a fraction of the reports are accurate.
    
    I'm not saying that no life exists elsewhere in the universe.  However,
    if God is real (and we all know He is), then he is not going to let
    alien beings of an obviously advanced nature (scientifically, anyway)
    interfere in this world.  And if Revelation is to be believed, any
    suggestion that these beings (if they are even real) will bring forth
    peace and enlightenment, is absolutely a false hope (and placing one's
    hope in an unknown alien species is certainly not what God tells us to
    do).
    
    I find the UFO frenzy to be an interesting study in deception.  God
    says He will send a great deception to those who are left after the
    Rapture, and just maybe a part of that is giving these fallen angels
    free reign to appear at will before the nations.
    
    What better deception can you think of?  Since God is not a being of
    deception, He is obviously not going to create a deception to fool
    people so they will no accept His Son.  However, removing a restraining
    hand from the great deceiver, allowing him to fool the world, is not
    actively being deceptive.  This would also coincide with Revelation, in
    that the restrainer evil will be taken out of the way.
    
    Speculations, all of it.  But it is an interesting study.  8^)
    
    
    -steve

    Re: Rapture
    
    That reminds me of another thing that aliens are saying to people
    through channeling/automatic writing.  The year 2000 is a magic year
    for them when they will come down and join the people of the earth in
    a new communion after the ones who follow the "old ways" are removed. 
    The ones who follow the "old ways" are a hinderance to them.
    
    need I say more,
    Mike

    :')

    Oh Lord, please help me to be such a 'hinderance' :')

    Yeah Harry, we'll watch the bozos from heaven, if we have some spare 
    time ;-)

    The Bible says that many will be decieved in the last days - even the
    elect (if that were possible). I go along with Mike that this whole
    aliens issue is a big deception by satan to keep as many people out of
    Heaven as possible. 
    
    Lord, I pray you will open the eyes of your poeple to see the truth in
    this area. I pray that you will give a fresh discrernment to your
    people to see what is true and what is a scheme of satan. And Lord I
    pray for the lost sheep who are taken in by satans lies, please open
    their eyes to se the truth too. Lord, help us to show the true way.
    Amen
    
    Love
    Ben

Hi Marcos,

We have discussed the Nephilim, and the 'sons of God' of Genesis 6 in
detail at least a couple of times before.  If I get time I'll find a
pointer.  The significance of the name 'sons of God' implies a direct
creation, rather than physical descendents.  Of the three views, the
clearest (to my understanding) is that these were angels.  The record of
their imprisonment against future judgement is in 2 Peter 2:4.  Note that
these are fallen angels - demons; not 'servants of God'.  If you read the
next verse, you'll see that the protected are Israelites who are to witness
for the LORD through the tribulation, also referred to in  Revelation
14:1-5 

� which are in the four quarters of the earth. (as a sidenote this is the
� infamous verse that caused so many to be threatened by the fires of the
� Inquisition. Since the earth has four quarters it's obvious that it's not
� round;-)). 
	Have you never quartered an orange, to eat it?  ;-)

btw, in 764.16 I gave a wrong reference.  Elijah and Moses are recorded at
the transfiguration in Matthew 17:4, not Matthew 9:4!  Apologies. And thanks 
to Bruce!

							Andrew

Hi Marcos, 

Nephilim literally translates to 'long-necked'.  From the descriptions of
the Nephilim who were after the flood, it is apparent that these were of
abnormal size, and would be considered giants.  The Nephilim are first
mentioned in Genesis 6:4, after the 'Sons of God' and 'daughters of men'
have been introduced. Of the various theories concerning their origin, all
recognise that the text identifies the Nephilim as the result of union 
between the Sons of God and the daughters of men. 

If you look carefully at the context of Revelation 19, and the binding of 
the devil for 1,000 years, you will see that it follows the return of Jesus
with the armies of heaven.  The power of His coming destroys the antichrist
and his armies.  After this there is a judgement on earth (Revelation 20:4, 
Matthew 25:32), and this is when the devil will be bound in the bottomless 
pit for 1,000 years.  This is the millenium, when many other Old Testament 
prophecies will be fulfilled.  The portion of Revelation you mention is near 
the end, both of the book, and of time itself.  [ Incidentally, while you 
refer to Revelation 19:14, what you actually typed is an inaccurate 
paraphrase.  Satan is not bound and put into the pit by the armies of 
heaven, but by one angel as described in Revelation 20:1 ].

Satan is not yet bound in the pit, but he will be when Jesus returns.  Note
that Peter says 'Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion
looking for someone to devour'.  This was written before the Revelation was
given to John, and after Jesus' death and resurrection, so that future
event of Revelation is yet to occur. 

As you observe, that is my opinion (of course! - or I wouldn't have put it! ;-)
More significant, it is probably the most commonly held understanding of those 
verses.  Not because people just blindly accept someone's teaching, but 
because it is consistent with the general teaching of scripture, and also 
with the specific prophecies we have in scripture concerning the end times.
This conclusion has been reached by people who prayerfully study scripture
as a whole.


							Andrew

Hi Marcos,

I agree that the text can't be much clearer, but my conclusion as to its 
meaning is diametrically opposite to yours!  I agree with the preponderance 
of opinion which identifies the Nephilim as descended from the union of 
Sons of God and daughters of men.  I gues we're at something of an impasse 
on that one, so have to merely agree to differ!

Re the timescales of Revelation - define 'shortly', in the context of 2 
Peter 3:8 ...  Some of the book was very imminent - eg as indicated in the 
letters to the churches.  Some of it refers to the very end times.

Revelation 12 is generally understood to refer to the birth of the LORD 
Jesus, from the nation of Israel.  The majority of that chapter is past.  
The resultant vengeance of the devil continues.

� A world ruler. What do you think of that? What would you call such a single 
� man if he endeavored to rule the whole world nowadays? 

It would depend entirely on whether it was His by right to rule, or whether 
he was a usurper.

� "These particular angels were later chained in the abyss for doing what God 
� forbid"

� Not supported by scripture.

The 2 Peter 2:4 reference is pretty clear about these, referencing the
flood in the next verse.  We would certainly read this to be supported by
scripture. 

� Therefore there's no scriptural evidence to suggest that the supposed 
� extraterrestrials that will be shown are demons as someone asserted a few
� replies back. 

'Someone' was Mike, I think.  And while it's a possiblity rather than a 
certainty, at this stage I would still opt for a hoax.

							Andrew

Hi Marcos,

The book of Revelation is not a sequential narrative.  Some events are 
related from different perspectives.

My mind is not closed on the hoax perspective - but it just seems the most 
likely option to me at present.

� In the meantime, the universe is incredibly vast and is likely to harbor 
� many other forms of life, I'll entertain speculations of the religious 
� consequences of that.

The mind can imagine all sorts of things, but that doesn't make them valid
or constructive in understanding our function and purpose here or for
eternity.  The likelihood of as yet unmet physical beings of spiritual
significance to man occupying the universe is negligable - unless you first
deny the existance of a God Who has design and purpose in mankind.  To deny
Him implies a denial of any purpose or design in the world at all,
including in any individual.  It is God Who gives us significance.  Without 
Him, we are mere transient organisms, with a complexity of construction 
that our intelligence cannot approach, geussing that we happened by chance. 
With Him, the function and progress of the world becomes clear, and 
fantasizing about imaginings is seen as fruitless without His light.

However, we can anticipate an increase in this sort of activity, according 
to 1 Timothy 4:1, which warns  "The Spirit clearly says that in later times 
some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught 
by demons."  While this specifically refers to an erosion of faith, it is 
also an indication of the type of activity anticipated in Revelation 13.


btw - thanks for 'dipping in'!

					May God bless you
								Andrew

    Whatever you believe they are, the messages they are relating gives
    away their origin.
    
    Mike

>I'd be interested in hearing what Christians think about this. The whole issue
>seems to generate some interesting religious questions, for instance:

>According to Genesis man was created in God's image, a belief that is somewhat
>supported by the belief that Jesus is God. Well! These aliens do not look like
>us. Is their God different then? If they are the creation of the same God why
>do they look different? Why did humankind receive the honor to look like God
>and they didn't? Why would creatures that do not resemble God be more advanced
>than us to the point of being able to master the technology of long-distance
>space travel?

    Being created in God's image has little to do with physical appearance. 
    God the Father hasn't a body nor does the Holy Spirit.  Jesus has a
    body since His incarnation.  So, being made in God's image is not about
    physical features rather moral capability, especially as distinct from
    God's creation of plants, animals, rocks, etc.
    
    
    >Also, if they are the creation of the same God then God must love them as much
>as us and it's resonable to think that God must have sent His only begotten son
>to the planet of these aliens too, otherwise God would be showing a preference
>and not being perfectly just and fair. 
    
    It is clear that God can do what He likes.  It is perfectly clear that
    if God were perfectly just and fair that all humanity would be doomed
    to hell forever, including myself.  God shows a preference to the elect
    in that He saves them while others perish.  It is hard to accept but
    completely true.
    
    >Then we would have Jesus _reincarnating_
>in another planet. In doing so Jesus would have to take an alien appearance
>otherwise He would look an aberration of nature in that alien planet.

    Jesus has His body forever now. 
    
>What do you think?

    Personally, I think it is immaterial to the Christian whether there are
    aliens or not.  
    
    jeff

    
    Such language is anthropomorphic.  Indeed any revelation to humanity
    and any discussion of God by humanity requires using language which we
    understand and that language will have us communicating about God in a
    fashion which makes sense to us.  Nevertheless, even with the verses
    you entered, there is no necessity that God have a body like ours. 
    Rear is behind, face is front, etc. and any object will possess
    these characteristics no matter what it looks like, including a wall, a
    lion, a man, or a rock depending upon the perspective of the viewer. 
    And, of course, clocks have hands.
    
    jeff

    A few years ago I debated the subject of extraterrestrials with Earl
    Wajenberg. In some version of the CHRISTIAN conference of years gone by
    I posted a flowchart of sorts that uses the Bible to deduce that
    soul-life (as opposed to animals/plants) only exists on earth.
    
    It started out with the hypothesis that soul-life does exist elsewhere
    and asks questions with a Biblical basis. Something like this:
    
    	Did the (supposed) alien life fall?
    	   No: contradicts Rom. 3:23
    	   Yes: Did God make provision for their redemption?
    	      No: contradicts Acts 2:21
    	      Yes: Is it through Jesus?
    	         No: contradicts John 14:6
    	         Yes: ...
    
    ... and the flowchart followed a line of reasoning whereby Jesus died
    once for all on a cross outside Jerusalem; that He was born of a
    virgin, lived a sinless life, etc. All of these concepts would be
    absolutely foreign to aliens (virtually by definition!). I finally
    concluded therefore that no such life exists. If anyone has the time,
    do a DIR/AUTH=DYSERT on the older CHRISTIAN conferences and I'm sure
    you'll find my flowchart - and probably Earl's rebuttal.
    
    I have also been reading some very interesting books from the science
    side of the fence (e.g. from Hugh Ross, a Christian astrophysicist, and
    from another pair of astronomers who wrote "The Left Hand of Creation"
    (don't know their names or if they're Christian)). My take on the
    science is that there are more than enough intricacies in the universe
    that had to be so finely and exactly tuned to allow for life to exist
    on planet earth, that it's exceedingly unlikely that there is another
    planet even in the vastness (yet finite-ness) of space that has the
    right mix to support any time of advanced (and therefore soul-) life.
    
    	BD�

    
    >Such language is anthropomorphic. 
    Isn't that the same as mythological.
    
    >Indeed any revelation to humanity and any discussion of God by humanity
    > requires using language which we understand and that language will have
    > us communicating about God in a fashion which makes sense to us.
    
    I agree with that.
    
    
    >Nevertheless, even with the verses you entered, there is no necessity that
    >God have a body like ours. 
    
    I agree.
    
    
    
    >Rear is behind, face is front, etc. and any object will possess
    >these characteristics no matter what it looks like, including a wall, a
    >lion, a man, or a rock depending upon the perspective of the viewer. 
    >And, of course, clocks have hands.
  
    
    So the Bible speaks in metaphor!  I agree with that too! 
     
    So just call me Ms. Orthodox then!

Re: .38  (VAXRIO::MARCOS)

>Note 764.37 
>USAT05::BENSON 
>
>>> God the Father hasn't a body nor does the Holy Spirit.  Jesus has a
>>> body since His incarnation.  
>
>Really?
>
>Genesis 33.20: And he [god] said, thou canst not see my face, for there shall
>no man see me and live.
>
>Genesis 33.23: And I [god] will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back
>parts, but my face shall not be seen.
>
>hands, face, back parts, ... 

	"He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will
	find refuge..."  (Psalm 91:4)

Hands, face, back parts, wings, ... must be a bird, yes?

And are you a Mormon?

    What's even more amusing is when people try to discern a spiritual book
    in the natural, without regard for Hebrew/Greek figures of speech and
    context.
    
    Mike

Re: .45  (Marcos)

Are you a Mormon?  

| <<< Note 764.46 by OUTSRC::HEISER "watchman on the wall" >>>


| What's even more amusing is when people try to discern a spiritual book
| in the natural, without regard for Hebrew/Greek figures of speech and context.

	What I find amusing is when people say the origional version is
correct, yet the many versions there are out there to use, they can't decide
which one best fits the origional. 

	I myself enjoy the Good News version.


Glen

    Re: Note 764.45 by VAXRIO::MARCOS

�What I find amusing is that when a biblical verse fits whatever _personal_
�belief system _one has contrived_ then the verse is to be taken literally, 
�otherwise if the verse does not fit then it's to be taken metaphorically.
    
    Of course, the Bible contains passages that are literal and passages
    that are to be seen as symbolic, metaphorical, typological, etc. For a
    brief and obvious example, John 20:19 mentions "doors" and it's clear
    to anyone that these are literal doors that you'd see in a house. In
    the same book (John 10:9) Jesus says "I am the door". It should be
    equally clear that He's not telling the people that He's a piece of
    wood on hinges. So serious Bible students (actually *any* serious
    student of any work) don't contrive some belief system and then
    "interpret" the work to reinforce their pet belief (this is known as
    proof-texting or more technically eisegesis). The serious student will
    form his/her ideas by applying the sound methods of interpretion that
    have been developed over the centuries.
    
    As Mike alluded to, when it comes to the Bible one first has to have
    God as their guide if they're to have any hope of understanding the
    Bible. It's no guarantee, of course - many true believers still don't
    have 100% understanding of every passage (see the note on the
    Pre-tribulation rapture for proof :-), but it is certain that someone
    won't be able to understand the Bible if they're coming at it from a
    solely natural perspective.
    
    Once someone has become a Christian, and therefore has direct access to
    the Bible's Author, one can then become serious about properly studying
    it. It's not mysticism - it's the following of established and accepted
    rules of hermeneutics.
    
    	BD�

	Barry, is it your belief that there are human beings on this planet
that understand the Bible 100%???  That part of your note (which was quite good
I might add) left me hanging with many ?????'s. :-)



Glen

    Uhm where did the Big Bang come from?
    
    Where did God come from?
    
    Seems to me either way faith is needed... hmmmm

| <<< Note 764.53 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" >>>

| -< You choose this day whom you serve >-
| Uhm where did the Big Bang come from?
| Where did God come from?
| Seems to me either way faith is needed... hmmmm

	Nancy, what is this in reference to? 

Re Note 764.52 (Glen)
    
>	Barry, is it your belief that there are human beings on this planet
>that understand the Bible 100%???  That part of your note (which was quite good
>I might add) left me hanging with many ?????'s. :-)
    
    Thanks. I don't know of anyone who claims 100% understanding. Perhaps I
    should have used the words 100% *agreement* with other true believers.
    The point I was trying to make is that no one will understand the Word
    except they be indwelt with the Spirit, but being indwelt with the
    Spirit isn't a guarantee that you'll have it all right.
    
    In mathematical terms, being a Christian is a necessary condition to
    proper interpreation, but it isn't a sufficient condition.


Re Note 764.53 (Nancy)

>    Uhm where did the Big Bang come from?
    
    God.
    
>    Where did God come from?
    
    Always was (He exists outside of the dimension of time).
        
>    Seems to me either way faith is needed... hmmmm
    
    Agreed.
    
    	BD�

| <<< Note 764.55 by DYPSS1::DYSERT "Barry - Custom Software Development" >>>


| Thanks. I don't know of anyone who claims 100% understanding. Perhaps I should
| have used the words 100% *agreement* with other true believers.

	Now this I would think would be harder to do, as the Bible is full of
so many things, that you could even find one other person to agree 100% sounds
pretty amazing! :-) But more than one????? The entire book????

| The point I was trying to make is that no one will understand the Word except 
| they be indwelt with the Spirit, but being indwelt with the Spirit isn't a 
| guarantee that you'll have it all right.

	Now with this I agree 100%!!!  This is a belief that I have myself.




Glen

    Here's some food for thought:
    
    Ignore what I've said previously about the demonic origins of aliens. 
    Think about where aliens have been sighted and where they haven't been
    sighted.  Think about deep space and satellite observations.  Don't you
    think if there were truly life forms out there that satellites would've
    picked them up?  NASA's space shuttle has picked them up, but they were
    all orbiting the earth when they did.
    
    The vast number of observations, both here and in space, should tell you 
    that these aliens are local to earth.  Now ask yourself why are they
    local to earth and contrast that with what they are saying to their
    abductees.
    
    Mike

    	The space shuttle has picked up aliens?

�    	The space shuttle has picked up aliens?

Should be *very* *careful* about hitch hikers.

								Andrew

    I did alittle research on this subject this weekend and this is what I
    came up with.
      If God did choose to create intelligent beings on other planets, they
    too would be tainted by Adam's sin, which affected the entire cosmos. 
    They would be fallen creatures like mankind and thus have the same
    technological limitations that we do.  If sin's retrogressive impact on
    man's advancement has prevented us from going to visit them, how could
    they possibly come to us?  If for some reason sin has not invaded thier
    race, would God permit such an unfallen civilization to contact us and
    thus be comtaiminated by our sin?  The answer to both of these
    questions is decidedly negative.  If extraterrestrial beings do exist,
    surely the Lord would have told us without equivocation. It seems that
    such a crucial matter would be discussed somewhere in the Word of God.
      Since it appears likely that neither human agencies nor
    extraterrestrial creatures are the source of UFOs, we are left to
    consider wheter they are of supernatural origin.  Robert
    Achzenner(arthor,lecturer, and UFO expert) has put it this way:"I have
    come to these conclusions. The unknow objects and their manifestations
    are real; they are intelligently  controlled; and no government
    authority or scientific agency knows what they are, where they come
    from, or why they are here."  Professor Leo Sprinkles view of the
    situation like this is:"My guess is that they're more than just a
    physical phenomenon, tht they're a psychic or spiritual phenomenon
    too."
      J. Allen Hynek said these aliens may come from a "parallel reality." 
    He concluded, "I suspect that a very advanced civilization might know
    something about the connections between mind and matter that we don't."
      Is it possible that this "parallel reality" is agelic in orgin?  Such
    a presumption cannot be exluded, since the Bible does warn us that in
    the end times "great signs shall tere be from heaven"(Luke 21:11). 
    Likewise, the prophet Joel declared that God would "show wonders in the
    heavens."  There are some committed believers who suggest that a
    percentage of UFOs are "chariots" of the Lord's "Hosts".  Others wonder
    if perhaps the rapture of saints will take place when living Christians
    board flying suacers and are whisked away to be with the Lord. Another
    possiblity often state is that UFOs are evidences of God's angelic army
    ammassing for the war in heaven prophesied for the Last Days.
    
      To discuss whether or not UFOs are of godly origin, we need to divide
    the phenomena into two categories: encouters fo the first
    kind(sightings),and encounters of the third kind(contact).  Third stage
    encounters do not appear to be angelic.  The conduct of UFO
    occupants(for example,sexual assaults and induced trance states) and
    themetaphysical message they bring is contrary to the activity that
    would be expected of unfallen angels.  Whenever they appear in
    Scripture, angels of the Lord always carry out specific, divine
    missions.  Their purpose is to convey a glorious revelation fo God's
    plan(for example, the annoncement of Christ's birth-Luke 2:9-14) or
    executing the Lord's wrath and judgment(the destruction of
    Jehoshaphat's enemies-2 Chronicles 20:22; the overthrow of Sodom and
    Gomorrah-Gen: 19: 22-25.)  Above all, as evidenced by Revelations
    22:8-9, they never draw attention to themselves.  True angels of the
    Lord speak only when divinely commissioned to do so, with the intent of 
    directing man's attention heavenward to God.
      Having ruled out the probability of angelic encounters fo the thrid
    kind, what may be said of UFO encounters of the firs kind(sighting)? 
    Obviously, if no direct, personal contact is made with the occupants of
    such craft, no objectively conclusive statements can be made.  But
    inferences can be drawn from the nature of such visitations.  The
    occurrences of poltergeist phenomena and the terror brought upon
    observers are indications of a demonic visitation.  When God intervenes
    supernaturally, it is to bring comfort and peace,unless there is a
    clear reason for his wrath to be exhibited.  What can be said of blips
    disappearing from radar screens and flashing oval objects floating
    through distant skies?  While neither God nor Satan can be positively
    identified as the source, the latter seems a far more likely culprits.
    
    	The descriptions given of UFO occupants usually include grotesque
    features and oddly shaped structures.  They may have enlarge heads,
    slits for eyes, etheral forms, and antennae sticking out of their
    skulls.  Most accounts are of beings that bear a distinct resemblance
    to the "familiar sprits" described in classical spiritualsim I have
    studied when in Brasil. 
       When UFO visitors speak, their message brings neither solace nor 
    information  in conformity with God's Word.  They talk of cosmic
    awareness and trancedence to hight spiritual planes.  Their sicourses
    never glorify christ as God and Creator.  Instead, contactees are told
    to prepare fo an age of peace that will be ushered in by these
    unidentified aliens.  UFO occupants also encourage participation in a
    variety of psychic practices: astral projection,psychokinesis,automatic
    handwritng,clairvoyance, and levitation.  Sin,judgement, and the
    redemptive work of Christ are never mentione.  Their words, their
    actions, and their appearances betray the conceled satanic origin of
    these beings.
      If it can be concluded that the majority of the UFOs are of demonic
    orgin, then what is their ultimate purpose?  Couldn't the devil just as
    easily accomplish his ends by another means, or do UFOs serve a unique
    role in the master plan of Satan to deceive mankind?
      an interesting insight is provided by Jacques Vallee, a Frenchman
    with a master's degree n astrophysics and a doctorate in computer
    science.  As an exponent of UFO investigations, he conclude that such
    phenomena are creating "a willingess to beleive tin extraterrestrial
    life."  He goes on to point out that "attitudes on the subject among
    scientists, the media, ahd the public have totally changed in twenty
    years.  We can rationalize this change or we can recognize it for what
    it is-the result of a shifting of our mytholgical structure."
      It may be that UFOs are reeducating manking to accept a casual
    familiarity with paranormal activity.  This conditioning process will
    be completed under the reign of the Antichrist.  During that time an
    inanimate image will live and speak(Rev 13:15) a fatal wound will be
    healed(Rev 13:14), and fire will fall from heaven(Rev 13:13). The
    Apostle John explains that such miracles will be used to deceive
    humanity into following the Antichrist(Rev 13:14;16:14).
      Modern man would like to think he is more advanced thtnthe primitive
    pagans of antiquity.  But is their mythology of gods, goddesses, and
    superbeings really any different fromthe twentieth-century mind's
    fascinationwith contactng humanoids from distant planets?  The greeks
    built their altar to unknown god, while we erect giant dish antennae to
    probe the heavens in search of some distanct trace of extraterrestrial
    life indicated by a pulsing radio wave.  Perhaps the persistent Old
    testament warnings agaisnt any communication with "familiar sprits"
    applies to modern inters in UFOs as well. 
    
    TEXT:  Various occult and pagan writings are cited, suggesting they are
    metaphoric reference to UFOs.  Some clain that Ezekiel 1 is a biblical
    accont of the UFOs.
    
    APPEAL:   It is becoming increasingly obvious that mankind's dilemmas
    need an external solutin.  Thos who refuse to seek a transcendent God
    may assume that extraterrestrials of higher technological and spiritual
    state may be able to save humanity.  Man's curiosity with the unknown
    gives UFOs a mystical fascination
    
    PURPOSE:  Man's intent is to discover if UFO occupants are of a higher
    state of evolution.  If so, communications with them may reap certain
    scientific benefits.  From Satan's standpoint, UFOs may be preparint
    the modern mind to accept a casual familiarity with supernatural
    phenomena. This would facilitate the Antichrist's reign, and until
    then,creat a milieu in which evil spirits may operate more freely.
    
    ERRORS:  The Bible does not give the slightest hint that
    extraterrestriasl exist.  Scripture inicated that God created only two
    kinds of beings-angels and men.  In addition, Romans 8:19-23 indicates
    that Eden's fall was cosmological in its effect.  Therefore, since the
    death of Christ at Calvary was distinctively for the sons of Adam's
    race, how many ohter times would  he have needed to give his life to
    reddem other civilizations?  Seculaor UFO interest fails to consider
    the possiblity that such phenomena may be supernatural(demonic) nature.
    
    BACKGROUND SOURCES:  To the point(south africa),15 September
    1978;Devner,February 1978,34,38-39;Newsweek,21 november 1977; The
    Anchorage Times, 1 January 1978, B5;SCP Jornal, August 1977,vol.1 no 2;
    J.Allen Hynek, The UFO Experience (New York: Ballantine, 1972)
    
    ADDRESS/LOCATION:  CE#K Skywatchers, P.O. Box 2300, Grand Central
    Station, New York NY 10017; Center for UFO Studies, 925 Chicgo AVe.,
    Evanston, IL 60202.
    
    FYI: There is another cult called the Aetheius Society who also
    beleives in the some philosophy.     

    Thanks Ray. Its good to know that there is somebody else who thinks and
    believe the same way I do.  I agree we do have to use alot of
    discernment because the Devil comes like a thief in the night seeking
    who can steal,kill,and destroy. 

	re: Space alien autopsy film:
    
    -------------------

    (c) 1995 Copyright the News & Observer Publishing Co.

    (c) 1995 Reuter Information Service

    LONDON (Aug 17, 1995 - 11:24 EDT) - A film which may prove that
    extraterrestrial creatures crash-landed a spacecraft on Earth will be
    shown in public for the first time on Saturday at a British UFO
    conference.

    One question will float over the gathering like a spectre -- is the
    footage purportedly showing a female alien with lizard-like eyes
    genuine or just an ingenious, elaborate hoax?

    Its owner claims the film was shot by a military cameraman in the
    aftermath of a flying saucer crash in New Mexico in 1947.

    Rumours of a mysterious crash in the New Mexico desert near Roswell
    have circulated for decades. UFO investigators have always claimed that
    an alien spacecraft fell from the sky and this momentous event was
    covered up by U.S. authorities.

    The UFO conference in Sheffield is attracting UFO experts and
    enthusiasts from all around world.

    The announcement that British film-maker Ray Santilli had stumbled upon
    military footage of the event, showing dead alien creatures, astonished
    scientists and UFO experts.

    Santilli says he bought the film from an octogenarian military
    cameraman who had shot top-secret footage of alien corpses after the
    crash. The man kept quiet about the film for years before selling it to
    finance his granddaughter's wedding.

    The footage has been shown privately to scientists, politicians and UFO
    investigators. It reportedly shows surgeons in white radiation suits
    examining a female alien.

    She is humanoid with a huge hairless head and lizard-like eyes. She has
    six fingers on each hand, and similar feet.

    Surgeons cut through her chest, which appears to bleed, and remove
    strange-looking internal organs. They saw off the top of her head to
    expose her brain, and remove her eyeballs.

    According to Santilli, experts at Kodak in New York say the film's
    stock number suggests it was made in 1927, 1947 or 1967. He has claimed
    that President Harry Truman is visible on one piece of footage,
    watching the bizarre spectacle.

    But experts who have seen the film are extremely sceptical.

    "I think this film is completely extraneous to the question of a
    crashed saucer, government cover-up, extraterrestrial visitors or
    anything like that," said Stanton Friedman, an American nuclear
    physicist who has spent decades investigating the Roswell incident.

    "There was certainly none of the excitement I as a physicist would
    expect from doctors having a unique opportunity to autopsy an alien
    being," he told Reuters Television.

    British anatomist Dr Fred Spoors told Reuters the alien looked
    suspiciously human -- suggesting that the film had shown a human with a
    genetic abnormality. He said the chances of aliens evolving to look so
    human were extremely remote.

    Special effects experts who investigated the film have also been
    unconvinced.

    "There are certain giveaways in the footage that suggest the alien is
    just a dummy," said Rod Dickinson, who creates sophisticated props for
    films. "It's a good hoax, but not astoundingly good."

    But Santilli insists the film is genuine. "It would be utter madness to
    attempt a world-wide "hoax' on this level by attempting such an easily
    discovered forgery," he said in a letter to a Sunday newspaper. He
    declined to be interviewed.

    And even some of those who doubt the film's authenticity remain certain
    that something mysterious did happen at Roswell.

    "I am absolutely convinced a saucer did crash outside Roswell,"
    Friedman said. "We're dealing with the biggest story of the millenium
    -- visits to planet earth by aliens, and the successful cover-up of the
    best data, the bodies and the wreckage for 48 years."
     

Hi Marcos,

There's been a lot of talk in the media about this thing - but then it's 
the sort of thing that would appeal to them!  The conjectures make emotive 
sales pitch, and it doesn't matter [legally] whether they're right or wrong
- it's the news value they're selling. 

							Andrew

    For those interested on this subject, as well as NWO stuff, look for
    the book 'Behold, A Pale Horse', by a Mr. <mumble> Cooper.  If only 10%
    of what he says is true (and there are many sources and documents
    printed in the book), this nation is in *big* trouble.  
    
    It is an interesting, if frightening, read.  I've yet to come across a
    book that encompasses so much "conspiracy" stuff in such a
    comprehensive and integrated way.  I reserve judgement on the contents
    (like I do with all sources of information), but it is a worthwhile
    read.
    
    
    -steve

�    the book 'Behold, A Pale Horse', by a Mr. <mumble> Cooper.  If only 10%

Presumably he thinks we're already past the white, red and black horses?!

							Andrew

    Actually, no. 
    
    His view on Revelation and who the beast is may be questionable (I
    refuse to adamantly believe any particulars on indentities not yet
    revealed), but this is not the focus of his book.  He mentions in the
    beginning that he is a Christian, but his main focus in on documents
    and information he has read/gathered over the last 17 years.  As an
    ex-Navy Intellegence officer, he has had access to many top-secret
    files regarding UFO's and other interesting subjects during his time in
    Intellegence.
    
    This is not an end-times prophesy book, but more of a "secret
    government" book which attempts to uncover those responsible for the  
    movement into a one-world government.  Of course, a one-world
    government is Biblical, so there is that tie-in.
    
    
    
    -steve

    
    RE: .70
    
    Ray,
    
    Of course, there IS something big on the horizon......
    
    
    		The 2nd coming of Jesus Christ!!!!!!!!
    
    Yippee Yahoo Amen!  Praise God!  Hallelujah!  Yeehaw!  Groovy even!
    Yippee Yahoo Amen!  Praise God!  Hallelujah!  Yeehaw!  Groovy even!
    Yippee Yahoo Amen!  Praise God!  Hallelujah!  Yeehaw!  Groovy even!
    Yippee Yahoo Amen!  Praise God!  Hallelujah!  Yeehaw!  Groovy even!
    Yippee Yahoo Amen!  Praise God!  Hallelujah!  Yeehaw!  Groovy even!
    Yippee Yahoo Amen!  Praise God!  Hallelujah!  Yeehaw!  Groovy even!

    You mean it's not the WIN95 release tomorrow?!

    Windoze '95 is just a plot to keep whatshisname atop the richest man in
    the world pile.
    
    -steve 

    wish I had a plot that nice.

    >atop the richest man in the world pile.
    
    ahem, only with a wedding ring!!!! 

    Bill Gates is already married, but no evidence has been provided as to
    whether or not he's an alien.

    	I think the question is whether or not SHE is.  But I would
    	venture to guess that she is the apple of his eye!

    Well what do you expect a computer geek to marry?  Pamela Anderson? ;-)

    She's actually quite beautiful.

    	re .79
    
    	Who is, Nancy?  Pamela Anderson?  The alien?  Or the apple?
    
    	Do any of them do windows?

    The woman that Bill Gates married!!!!!

    Bill Gates married Pamela Anderson??!!

 Let me see if I've got this straight.  Bill Gates is on selling windows
 on Baywatch?

    Or is Bill Gates one of the computer nerds watching Baywatch through
    Windows because they can't get a date?

 Hmmm..

    I would imagine that Bill Gates could easily get a date.  He has buku
    buckage...

    I watched it.  I thought it was entertaining and rather gross. 
    Amazing, the human senses, eh? :-)
    
    Did it make me question creation or my salvation?  NO.  Did it make me
    wonder if God is who I think He is? No.  
    
    The impression I was left with was very simple.  I don't know.  But I
    trust God.  And as long as my faith and trust is in Him, even if this
    were another one of his creations from another life system, it doesn't
    cause my faith to waiver.
    
    God is God and He is sovereign and just.  I was pondering on the way
    into work this morning the great need within man to believe in
    evolution over creation.  Why is this?  And then one word hit me
    between the eye "authority".  In evolution, man is his own authority
    answerable to no-one but himself.  But in creation, God is authority
    and unfortunately, God's authority and character has been sabotaged by
    the media.
    
    You know why there is so much negativity towards Christians
    [Bible-believing ones that is] today?  Because the media [tv,
    newspapers, books, radio] have focused on the emotionally unstable who
    name the name of Christ for their extreme behaviors.  
    
    God is still God, regardless of the attempts by those who wish to 
    persuade us He doesn't exist.
    
    Nancy

    I watched it, but not because I went out of the way to.  It happened to
    come on the station that I was tuned to (I was reading and not really
    paying the teevee much attention).
    
    Though all but one of the experts disagree with me, I thought it looked
    fake.  Sorry, just didn't look real to me.  I even *tried* to believe
    it was real and couldn't do it.  Perhaps God has something to do with
    this?  I don't know.  My spirit said it was a deception, and that's
    were I stand on this for now, though I have no good physical
    explanation to base my feeling on.  It was a very good deception, but a 
    deception nontheless (even if the film coverage is for real- but
    that's another explanation  8^) ).  
    
    I couldn't get past "end times" prophesies on this one, one thing kept
    coming to mind- that a great deception would be given to mankind, which 
    would fool even the elect, if that were possible.  This seems to me, to be 
    the beginning of a deception of such a grand scale that it will fool the
    whole world for a time- a world that relies only on its physical
    senses.
    
    Desensitization is an amazing thing, and it has been going on for some
    time.  The envelope is being pushed once more, and we are being studied
    for a response (someone's testing the waters).  
    
    This is my impression, and I could very well be wrong about all of it. 
    It is my position on it currently, though, and it's not likely to
    change.  A "great deception" wouldn't be 'great' if it wasn't an amazingly 
    good deception.  The Bible is well-known for its understatements, and
    if the Bible says "GREAT" then I am of the mind that it will really be 
    something powerful and convincing; something that we will not be able to 
    explain away without spiritual discernment.  The Bible does say that
    the world will swallow the deception hook, line and sinker (though not
    in those exact words  8^) )- this means all of our scientific and
    medical "experts", too.
    
    Any other opinions?  8^)
    
    
    -steve                    

    amen.

    I was in school, what did I miss?
    
    btw - I read that Scully and Muldar (sp?) have different beliefs in
    real life.  Muldar is the skeptic in real life.
    
    Mike

    >I was in school, what did I miss?
    
    Well, if you wish to buy into what the teevee people were trying to
    sell us, then you missed the BIGGEST, MOST IMPORTANT, MOST SIGNIFICANT
    EVENT IN HUMAN HISTORY.
    
    Personally, I thought that God coming down to earth (for our sakes) as
    eclipsing any other event in human history, but I'm rather biased on this
    one.  8^)
    
    You missed b&w footage of guys in protective suits cutting into a
    "cadaver" that looked like the atypical alien-type space critter- you
    know, big head, large eyes, etc.  8^)
    
    
    -steve

    Since I've been forthright with my opinions on this, it is only fair to
    give my background, lest someone call me a synic on UFOs/ect..
    
    I've always had an interest in paranormal activity, UFOs, loch ness
    monster, bigfoot, cultic things, etc.  Anything "out of the ordinary" 
    piqued my interest.  I've read many books on UFO's and ghosts and similar 
    things, always believing that there was something to it.  I've always
    wanted to see a UFO up close.  [off the immediate subject, I believe I
    saw one at a distance during a meteor shower many years ago]
    
    My interest in such things only grew until I was baptized as a
    Christian.  At this time, I was still curious, but became disinterested
    for the most part.  It wasn't until I began reading Christian books on
    demonology and such, that began to get a certain perspectual balance that 
    I was definitely lacking before.  
    
    So, my background is one of open-minded belief in strange phenomina,
    aliens, the occult and such.  My skepticism is relatively a recent
    phenomina.
    
    Now, I will inflict upon everyone my "logic" on this subject, including
    much interesting, titilating, informative and thought-provoking
    conjecture.  ;^)  I've hidden it behind the FF for no apparent reason.
    
    
    Since, IMO, there is simply too much evidence and too many witnesses to 
    dismiss UFO's (and remember that UFO stands for 'Unidentified Flying 
    Object', not 'big-headed guys with large eyes from another planet'  8^) ). 
    The only real question, in my mind, is WHAT are UFO's?  Where do they come
    from, and what is their purpose here?
    
    Ancient drawings from different cultures show a significant similarity
    to the flying craft many film or spot today, suggesting that this may
    not be JUST a recent occurance.  Other records show that sightings have
    occured sporatically throughout much of recorded history.  The
    difference today is the number of sightings, the increasing trend of
    sightings from the 1940's to today.
    
    What does it mean?  Some would suggest that we were planted on this
    earth by said aliens, that our origins are from them.  Some would
    suggest that they are benevolent observers, observers invited here by
    one of our first space probes (I forget the name of it, probably one of
    the Voyager series probes).  Others believe that they are here to save
    us from ourselves, since they have been sighted with increasing
    intensity since the beginning of our nuclear age.  I suggest that none of 
    these reasons are accurate.  
    
    Did they plant the seed of humanity on this planet, coming back periodically
    to check on our progress?  Those of us who believe the Bible will
    reject this.  God placed us on this earth.  To suggest that aliens from
    another planet put us here is contrary to the word of God.  Still,
    non-Christians may buy into this, which could be all a part of the
    deception, which attempts to chip away at the authority of the Bible (this 
    may be stretching things a bit, but I like to toss out ideas here and 
    there  8^) ).
    
    If they were benevolent observers, then why the abductions? (most of which 
    seem to be MOST unpleasant)  Why the cattle slaughter (destruction of 
    property- some feel that the cattle mutilations are connected with UFO's)? 
    Why do they pick on children in many abductions (the ultimate in cruelty,
    IMO)?  No, whoever they are they are NOT benevolent, if any small
    portion of first-hand accounts of abduction are true.  [And of course,
    if we invited them in recent history, then why is there record of
    visits dating back prior to the space program?]
    
    What about saving us from ourselves?  Possibly, but their behavior
    suggests a more sinister aspect of their arrival.  Their morality would
    seem to be conspicuously absent, if any of these abductions are to be
    believed.  Morality determines purpose, which indicates that their
    purpose is not to save us.  "By their fruits you will know them." 
    Their fruit is pain, mental anguish, fear, and sexual abuse to many
    abductees (if you believe their story).  If this is how they plan to
    save us, I'd rather not be saved by them.
    
    Could this be some government conspiracy?  If it is, then why?  If it
    is not and there is something not of this earth, then why the cover up? 
    The government is cornered here.  They are either experimenting with
    citizens or they are covering up what they feel is a real phenomina. 
    In either case, the question "why?" holds up, and points to a
    conspiracy of sorts, either one rather ominous IMO.  
    
    I believe that we could possibly have the technology needed to create 
    craft that people spot flying around.  If you will look at recently
    declassified aircraft, you will be amazed at the technology and
    abilities of them- and we've had a LONG time to come up with more
    incredible things (look at how far computer technology has come since
    the early 60's, just in the business sector).   This is one possiblity.
    
    If it is a government experimental craft, why would they abduct people? 
    Some sort of experimentation on mind control/altering/memory wiping? 
    Who knows?  I put nothing past the government these days.  Nothing.  I
    don't necessarily think this is the answer, though.  Just one
    possibilty, or one small piece to a larger puzzle.
    
    The Bible seems silent on extraterrestirals, though it is not silent in
    regards to the Nephilim, who are the result of the "sons of God" mating
    with the "daughters of men".  Were they a mutant offspring of fallen
    angels and man?  If you look at the context of the chapter, it points
    out that something was certainly different (specifically, they were
    giants), and that the coupling was so pervasive that Moses (and his
    line) were the only ones untainted by this mixing ("Moses, being
    *perfect* in his generation").  There are suggestions that forbidden
    knowledge was given to man by the fallen angels, as well (I forget the
    passages, though).  It is possible that the flood was to destroy not only
    the geneticly altered, evil people, but to destroy the works of these
    men who had "forbidden" knowledge (speculations abound here, so I'll
    not continue along this line).  
    
    The connecting factor between the ancient drawing of flying saucers and
    today's sightings may include a connection of today's time with that of the
    time before the flood of Genesis.   
    
    One conspiracy book (that I mentioned previously in this string) reports of
    top secret government documentation that suggests a treaty of sorts
    between what they believe to be "aliens" and our government.  The
    treaty stipulates that the aliens have permission (like they really
    need it) to abduct a limited number of citizens for genetic material
    (supposedly needed to insure their survival) in exchange for advanced
    technology.  This sounds ridiculous, but who knows?  The key points of
    interest are "genetic material" (for experiments) and "advanced
    technology" (forbidden knowledge?).  Well, it's a BIG stretch, but the
    parallel may be valid (and maybe not).
    
    It will be like it was in the time of Noah, says the Bible, when things
    move into the day of God's wrath.  It makes for interesting discussion
    and speculation, doesn't it?  Nephilim in our day?  Or something
    similar?  Perhaps super-psychics or genetically altered humans?  Who
    knows? (<--pure unadulterated speculation!!)
    
    Lest you think I'm a loon, I must point out that this is an exercise in
    extrapolation of Biblical ideals, combined with information from
    sources that may either be written by fellow loons or perhaps
    misinformed folk.  I accept nothing at face value, including my own
    diatribe on the subject.  I remain speculative and unconvinced of
    any concrete truths in the matter of UFOs.  8^)
    
    
    -steve

    Got just a couple a UFO stories, myself -
    
    Back around 1960 I was working a large construction project on a
    hillside in Montpelier, Vermont.  One cold, clear winter's night (and
    you ain't seen COLD like that this side of Barrows) I saw something low
    on the horizon that wasn't behaving as it should.  I watched a while,
    then called Vermont State Police to report it, and was laughed at.  
    
    Next morning there was a story in the Boston paper about a test flight
    of a new super weather baloon somewhere in Florida - and the statement
    that it had been seen as far north as New York.  
    
    The other was second hand, and occurred when I was a Blue-Shirt.  The
    two best cops I knew were on patrol late one night, when John (later my
    sergeant, and an ex-priest) said to George:  "George, did you see
    that?"  George was silent long enough for John to look over at him, and
    then said "No, and you didn't either!" 
    
    /John

 Buncha notes re Hugh Ross moved to 788.




 Jim Co Mod.

    I've been catching up on my reading during school break.  Just polished
    off "UFOs in the New Age - Extraterrestrial Messages & the Truth of
    Scripture" last night.  This book is available from CRI and is written
    by Bill Alnor.  Very interesting and scholarly work.  It has many
    footnotes and documented sources in the same way that "Christianity in
    Crisis" and "A Woman Rides the Beast" does.
    
    I thought UFOs were fad of this century, but there are over 300 documented 
    sightings/contacts in history prior to the 1900's.  The earliest one 
    documented was in 1480 B.C. in Egypt during Thutmose III's reign.  Also, 
    Columbus recorded a sighting 4 hours before hitting land in 1492.
    
    Why does an "alien" travel all the way to earth just to insult the
    person, work, and nature of Jesus Christ?  Why are they so eager to
    discuss religion and feel the need to correct us about Christ?  I knew
    going into this book that aliens were just demons in disguise.  This
    book confirms it, bigtime!  You get to read for yourself many channeled
    quotations from them.  You also get to see their many lies and
    prophecies that never come to pass.
    
    Even New Agers, like Strieber (wrote "Communion"), say their demonic,
    sometimes evil, sometimes even sexual, yet they continue to propagate
    the lie.  UFOlogy is currently the hottest topic at New Age conventions!
    
    Many of the religious writings of cults and false religions (new and
    old) also record visitors from outer space: Hinduism, Buddhism, Mormonism, 
    Shintoism, Shamanism, etc.
    
    If you have an interest in this area, I highly recommend this book.
    
    Mike