Conference yukon::christian_v7

    Romans 8: 28-31  as quoted in 9:940
    
    
    This is an intriguing verse.  What does it mean in so far as
    
    "Predestination"  "The nature of Jesus Christ"  The meaning of the
    "Firstborn of a large family"  "Human choice in accepting or rejecting
    God's gift of grace"
    
                                      Patricia

Hi Patricia, 

The reason that no note exists to discuss the 'Good Morning' verse is
because these verses are given as Scripture to meditate on personally,
rather than for discussion.  Obviously, eny verse is relevant for
discussion, and would be raised in its own merit and light, rather than
because it was entered as a 'Good Morning' verse.  So I presume this note 
is really to discuss aspects of Romans 8:28-31, rather than try to keep up 
with all of the morning verses.... ;-)

In asking about predestination, you're asking questions which walk the
boundary of time and eternity. 

The Epistle of Paul to the Romans is addressed to Christians.  
Specifically, to those in Rome, who are 'loved by God, and called to be 
saints'.  This is specified in Romans 1:7.

In that context, Romans 8:28-31 is saying to those who have received 
salvation, that God not only knows them, but has always known them, and 
that He knew their free will decision to be Christians in the eternal 
dimension, outside their entering it in the temporal arena.  

In discussing Romans 8:28-31, there is a lot more than the
freewill/predestination balance to consider, so it's not useful to get too
tied up in that, if we want to consider the verse as a whole.  However, if
you really want to discuss the freewill/predestination question, there is
scarcely room for the other aspects of the verse.  The choice is yours!  
I'll continue for now...

In the New Testament, the picture of the family is used in various ways to 
reveal the relationship between God and those who are saved from the effect 
of their sins.  The significant point in Romans 8 is that we are changed in 
character to receive the character of the family, much as a child displays 
family characteristics.  This is how we are "conformed to the image of 
His Son" - because once someone is saved, they are indwelt by the Holy 
Spirit,the third person of the Trinity (Ephesians 1:13-14), whose residence 
within has efect in the development and shaping of our character.

This is why Jesus is seen as 'the firstborn of many brethren' - because He 
died so that many might be joined to the family as co-heirs.

I hope this makes a start!

						God bless
								Andrew

    I, too, find it inappropriate to start a topic to "discuss" the morning
    verses.  The morning verses represent an encouragement, not a matter of
    doctrinal debate.  
    
    This feels almost to me as a challenge to the very essence of this
    conference.  I can understand when a "verse" such as this comes along
    and one would like clarification, but I certainly hope your intent is
    not to discuss every morning verses entered.  Can you clarify,
    Patricia?
    
    Nancy

| <<< Note 759.3 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" >>>

| I, too, find it inappropriate to start a topic to "discuss" the morning 
| verses. The morning verses represent an encouragement, not a matter of 
| doctrinal debate.

	Nancy, if one does not understand the morning verse, why shouldn't they
discuss it? I would think it is an encouraging thing to do, as understanding
it's meaning could help in ones walk with Him. One might actually see the
encouragement if they understood it completely. 

| This feels almost to me as a challenge to the very essence of this conference.

	I think you're reading more into this than what is intended.

| I can understand when a "verse" such as this comes along and one would like 
| clarification, but I certainly hope your intent is not to discuss every 
| morning verses entered.  

	Well, how long has Patricia been noting in here, and how many times has
she discussed the verses posted? But even if between all the participants in
here most were discussed, so what? If one has a question, they should ask. To
stifle questions with what you wrote above is something that I don't think He
would want to see. 

	You seem to imply that Patricia would be the only one who would write.
I highly doubt that would be the case. ANYone who has a question what the verse
means, should be able to ask, and shouldn't feel like they shouldn't. Let Him
do His job. Let the questions be asked, and pray that He uses us to answer
those very questions.

	Patricia, I commend you on wanting to find out what the verse means. I
hope that anyone else who wishes to understand more about any of the verses,
does so. I hope that from this the people who make up this community will be
able to grow closer to Him. 



Glen

    Andrew,
    
    Setting aside the predestination discussion, which I agree can 
    overshadow the rest of the discussion on the verses, the verse is deep
    with meaning.  I am particularly inspired by the metaphor of Christ as
    the first born of many brethren.  In Corinthians a similiar metaphor is
    used identifying Christ as the first fruit of the new creation.  The
    incarnation of God in Christ begins with Christ and spreads to
    humankind.   I would say that the "Cosmic Christ" dwells within all of
    us".
    
    This verse does not speak of any acceptance of the call.  them that he
    called, he also justified and glorified.  That too is an important
    consideration.
    
    But Romans as a whole does remain a mystery to me.

    Glen,
    
     ... no one is suggesting that the verse can't be
    discussed...but the implication of a discussion of daily verses is
    challenging the very premise of this conference.  The fact that you
    don't see it, is not all too surprising.
    
    

Patricia,

� I am particularly inspired by the metaphor of Christ as the first born of
� many brethren.  

This is indeed, an immense vision to give the saved.  Our aim is to be like
Him Who died for us; in whom there was no sin, and while we cannot achieve
it in this life, we should not be discouraged, and need never give up trying,
because He Himself will ultimately fulfil that work in us (eg Philippians 1:6). 

� The incarnation of God in Christ begins with Christ and spreads to
� humankind.   I would say that the "Cosmic Christ" dwells within all of us".

I'm not sure how you make this jump.   It is not one supported by
scripture, unless you take the reference to the heathen poet, of Acts 17:28
The preponderance of clear Biblical teaching emphasises that there is a
division between those who accept the sacrifice of Jesus, repenting and
turning from their sin, in whom God works sanctification towards eternal
salvation; and those who reject God's righeousness, relying on their own 
works, which He says are like dirty rags.

Now certainly there is one God over all, to whom all are answerable, and to 
whom all _will_ bow (eg Philippians 2:10-11).  However, it is clear that 
while some bow in willing and joyful acceptance in this life, there are 
many who will only bow in defeat and judgement in the next.  The many 
judgement passages, from Matthew 25:31-46 to Revelation 20:11-15 spell this 
out.

    Enter through the narrow gate.  For wide is the gate, and broad
    is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
    But small is the gate, and narrow the road that leads to life, and only 
    a few find it.
							Matthew 7:13-14

It would be interesting to compare the verses which speak of a separation
or division, with those you feel indicate a general acceptance into heaven
(ie no need for individual salvation, because of a universal one), to see
the sources and contexts of the types of reference, and what sense the
opposing perspective then assumes.  However, that would be rather an 
immense task!

�    This verse does not speak of any acceptance of the call.  them that he
�    called, he also justified and glorified.  That too is an important
�    consideration.

Note that the 'call' is not the first stage of that sequence in Romans 8:30.
The first step is predestination!  In fact, going back to verse 28, we have:

   "And we know that in all things God works for the god of those who love
    Him, who have ben called according to His purpose.  For those God foreknew
    he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son, that He
    might be the firstborn among many brothers.  And those He predestined, He
    also called; those He called, H also justified, those He justified, He also
    glorified."
								Romans 8:28-30

The 'call' is ultimately irresistable, where it has the personal 
identification of His choice, and the consequent revelation of the meaning 
of that call.  The revelation of salvation and its significance to the
individual offers the choice between bliss and doom.  God, Who knows the
heart, will not force those who cling to salvation by their own efforts, to 
be reluctant citizens of heaven - that would make Him a tyrant, instead 
of the God of love.

As I emphasised before, the book of Romans is a letter addressed to
Christians.  Its contents cannot be casually assumed to apply to anyone; in
particular, it cannot be taken for granted by those who have not accepted
Christ - just as I cannot open my sons' letters and assume that I can apply
their contents to myself!

�    But Romans as a whole does remain a mystery to me.

Possibly the specific addressee information may be something of an 
essential key in how to interpret it.

						God bless
								Andrew

    Andrew,
    
    It's not necessary to argue how many will be saved.  We will simply get
    into a rat hole. 
    
    The one point that I did want to clarify though is that my belief in
    universal salvation does not preclude the need for individual
    salvation.  I do believe that individuals will be saved one by one
    until all humankind is included.  I don't know how that will happen but
    I see it as part of God's plan, God's grace, and God's persistence.  I
    do believe that God does give each one of us free choice.  I do believe
    that humanity can and does hold out for a long while.  I do also
    believe that it is God's desire that every single person be included
    within God's reign, and God is persistent.  Ultimately, no one can
    refuse.  
    
    It is the quality of our lifes here on earth that is greatly impacted
    by when we make that choice.  There is no joy in living without God. 
    For each of us to live our lives fully, with passion, and with joy, we
    must be guided by that Divine spirit that  is available to us all.
    

| <<< Note 759.6 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" >>>


| ... no one is suggesting that the verse can't be discussed...but the 
| implication of a discussion of daily verses is challenging the very premise 
| of this conference.  

	How is it Nancy? If one wishes to better understand the verse, they
should ask. In what way does it challenge the premise? 

| The fact that you don't see it, is not all too surprising.

	How asking what something means is going against the premise is what I
don't see.


Glen

Patricia,

I can agree with a lot of that!  But not all ;-}

�    The one point that I did want to clarify though is that my belief in
�    universal salvation does not preclude the need for individual
�    salvation.  I do believe that individuals will be saved one by one

I can appreciate the distinction you are making there; that you agree that 
salvation is an individually responsibility, individually received.  Our 
difference lies in whether all reach that state.  And I read you to
say that you don't want to use this note to discuss whether all reach 
that state or not, but rather to emphasise that personal salvation is an 
individual issue?

							Andrew

    Patricia,
    
    Thanks for changing the topic name.
    
    Nancy

    Today's good morning verse, Romans 8:38-39 is one of my favorites.
    
    It is powerful!
                                       Patricia

    O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me.
    
    Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest  my
    thought afar off.
     
    Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted  with all
    my ways.
    
    For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou  knowest it
    altogether.
    
    ***************************************************************
    
    Today's verses just reached out and grabbed my heart.  Thank you Father
    for your wisdom and the comfort in knowing that when I hurt, you know,
    and when I rejoice, you know and when no-one else sees my hidden pain,
    you know.  
    
    
    

 Re  9.691


 AMEN!