Conference yukon::christian_v7

      Amen Paul!
    
      I too want to learn what it means to give virtually all to
      Christ, to be crucified with Him.
    
      I want to be willing to give up everything, even the 'neutral'
      things, i.e. competitive sports, almost any kind of TV, everything.
    
      Thanks Paul.
    
    						Tony

	Paul, very nice note. I think part of the problem for the division is
when others "believe" another isn't obsessed with Him.

    
    I think you're precisely right Paul.  I also think that the message in
    church gets diluted sometimes because people who do not have a personal
    relationship with Jesus Christ hang out in churches and they are there
    for so long, you think they are a christian.  They get involved in 
    everything and then they get into roles of teaching and they teach
    their beliefs.  I think the leadership of a church really needs to
    be in prayer and talk at length with anyone that serves to be sure they
    have a profession of faith and not just a profession of church.
    
    Jill
    

    Amen to both .1 and .3!!!!!

    Hi,

    I (often times) feel uncomfortable when I read/hear something like
    this. Not because it's "wrong", but because it is RIGHT!

    What a challenge! What an out and out challenge!

    I am reminded of an anecdote about a conversation between a Communist
    and a Christian a while back. The gist of it was that the Communist
    declared that Christianity would soon be dead because of the compromise
    and wishy-washy-ness of the church. In comparison, the Communists spent
    their entire life, day in day out devoted to their cause, gave a
    protion of their wage (10%?) to 'the Cause'. Spent hours a day in
    volunteer work for 'the Cause'.

    On the other hand - christians - once a week at church, if we're
    'lucky'. Run a 'coin-operated' giving plan (i.e. loose change rather
    than 'serious' dollars). And generally 'dip-out' on building
    improvement or other practical needs of the church community.

    I am guilty of the above too. Far too recently.

    A challenge - to be sold out to Jesus. To be utterly devoted to Him. No
    Compromise.

    scary isn't it?

    Amen.
    I've struggled with this since I was young and got lost. Lost in the
    World. I have learned that to be found is to lose yourself. To be found
    means to be found in Christ and this means total abandonment to Him who
    saved you. Not something the world is good at teaching. The world
    teaches us to be in control. That is something that Lucifer could not
    do to give all to God. He loved himself more than God.
    
    Who do you love more, yourself or God? Does your life reflect this
    love?
    
    When I met God on His terms then my heart was transformed. God calls
    upon each of us differently but we are all called to abandon ourselves
    completely in Christ. This is for our own good. If only we could see
    that. The best thing for us is both the easiest and hardest thing to
    do. Only in Christ will it become easy. Even when it is difficult the
    peace of Christ will be with you and know one can take that away.
    
    
    Only when we lose ourselves will we be found. In our weakness He is
    made strong.
    
    Steve D.

                              Anima Christi

                       Soul of Christ, sanctify me.
                         Body of Christ, save me;
                      Blood of Christ, inebriate me;
                 Water from the side of Christ, wash me;
                     Passion of Christ strengthen me;
                          O good Jesus, hear me;
                        Within thy wounds hide me;
                 Suffer me not to be separated from thee;
                   From the malicious enemy defend me;
                     In the hour of my death call me,
                         And bid me come to thee.
                  That with thy Saints I may praise thee
                        For ever and ever.  Amen.

   Paul,
   Thank you for sharing your experience which Jesus only gives to those 
   when they are ready to receive it. Being obsessed by Jesus is putting
   Him in the center of your life. This transforms you from being a follower 
   of Him to being a Disciple of Him. It was for me a wonderful discovery too. 
   
   I thought at one time that Jesus WAS in the center of my life. One I would 
   constantly talk to and wake up in the night still talking to. I would 
   say to Him "Jesus please use me today"...and to be sure He did in some 
   astounding ways. It was at this time I too criticized the Submarine 
   Christians who would emerge for half an hour a week. I thought how much 
   they were missing. 
   Jesus then hid Himself from me and it was long before I could fathom out 
   why.
   Although I thought Jesus was in the center of my life it was only whilst 
   every thing went well and when there were no temptations to give worldly 
   things priority.
   His hiding took on the form of me not receiving a reply to my questions, 
   distractions in my prayer and a feeling that I was on my own with no 
   support from Him when I needed it most.
   
   In seeking Jesus continually we become strong. In longing to find Jesus 
   we become close to Him. By our awareness that we need Him we become His 
   close friend. Only then He really becomes the center of our lives.
   
   The more we put Jesus in the center of our lives the more we are tempted 
   by "the evil one" by worldly things. 
   Fighting the good fight as a disciple is tough but rewarding.
   
   Yes you could say that I am a fanatic whereby I have lost many friends 
   including my closest. I would however rather be rejected by my friends 
   than by Jesus. 
   
   There are few people that such information can be shared with because it 
   depends on ones level of spirituality to be accepted. Maybe this is why 
   many churches keep their teachings to a superficial level. 
   However, once you receive the calling from Jesus to put Him at the center 
   and as master of your life then you can learn more on what this means by 
   reading the lives of saints and/or by having a personal discussion with 
   your local minister.

   May God bless you 

   Peter
                                                       
   

Thank you Paul.  Another danger arises because we are constantly growing 
and developing.  Just because we feel we have reached a place of total 
commitment today, it does not guarantee that we shall not be slightly 
distracted tomorrow.  We need to particularly support church leaders in 
prayer in this area, as they are targets for attack.  As well as being 
vigilant and watchful to keep our own eyes fixed on Jesus.

Part of the stages of growth seems to be that the LORD may give us a
glimpse of His glory as we walk with Him, maybe over years, which is then
withdrawn as He then asks us to increase our walk by faith, instead of by
sight, taking for our own that whcih we have seen is available.  I wouldn't
put that forward as a doctrine - merely as personal experience and
observation. 

My target is Ephesians 5:17, which says :
	"...do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the LORD is"

In context, the contrast is between living and walking in the perfect 
understanding of the will of God, in total clarity of His light, and 
anything less, which is shown up as foolishness.  No competition!

Another point is that we can only estimate another's commitment from our
own limited human perception.  That is an area where often we really cannot
judge each other, because we do not know the heart as He knows the heart. 
We do not know the factors which govern people's decisions.  I know that 
there are some who occupy pews, and do little more in the church, for whom 
we are concerned that they have actually received salvation, but beyond 
that we easily get into a very grey area.  Our mandate is to show Jesus to 
the world, by our attitude, character etc, which reflects His alone.  

That's the desired result, as we lose sight of this world, and become 
increasingly excited as we see Him more and more clearly.

I keep coming back to :
  "When He appears, we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is"
								1 John 3:2

							Andrew

One thing that helps for me is to ask a simple question.  Best asked daily, at
the end of the day (and as I write this, I realize I've gotten out of the
habit.):

"If someone treated me the way I treated God today, how would I feel?"

If the answer is not "I would feel cherished and loved, and like I was the most
important thing in the world to them," then something's wrong.

Paul

	Andrew, what an incredible note! (.9)  Thanks for posting that!

    I've been pondering for quite some time now the verse that says,
    "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof."
    
    To me this implies that one can do ritualistic things without the heart
    being tied to God.  I've asked myself continually, why is it that in my
    own church, women are wary of me?  I know this sounds really silly, but
    truth is, I love the Lord so much that I tend to bubble when I'm
    speaking about what he's doing in my life or other's lives, like the
    testimonies in here that I share.  
    
    The responses and the facial expressions I receive, often make me feel
    as though I am a freak of some sort.. some religious anamoly in the
    midst of more devout and serious Christians.
    
    I find myself comparing myself to them to see if I measure up... oh woe
    is me when I do that!!!  
    
    There are a select few of women who appreciate and encourage my
    bubbles, and I praise God for them.  I'm told that when I talk about
    the Lord, my "eyes" light up. :-) :-)  Imagine that?!
    
    I *love* the Lord with all my heart... *most* of the time.  But there
    are times that I *love* me more... or my children.  I've tried to teach
    the children that with all the love I have in my heart that they feel,
    God loves them even more than that... but sometimes I forget that with
    all the love I have in my heart for my children, God loves *me* more.
    
    :-)
    
    I'm rambling... but I guess the conclusion I was trying to come to is
    very very simple...
    
    I don't want to be ritualistic or rigid in my Christian personna
    [meaning what people see in me], I'd rather be looked at as freaky and
    have the "light" shine in my eyes... because that comes from the heart.
    
    At the same time, I have nowhere near reached understanding the power
    of godliness or to be godly consistently... what I do know is God uses
    a surrendered heart regardless of its imperfections, cause he uses me.
    
    Rambling on...
    Nancy

  "An unmarried man is concerned about the LORD's affairs - how he can 
   please the LORD.  But a married man is concerned about the affars of 
   this world - how he can please his wife - and his interests are divided.
   An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the LORD's affairs: her 
   aim is to be devoted to the LORD in both body and spirit.  But a married 
   woman is concerned about the affairs of this world - how she can please 
   her husband.  I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, 
   but that you may love in a right way in undivided devotion to the LORD."

						1 Corinthians 7:32-33


For the majority of people, the marriage state is so strong a natural 
desire, that achieving it takes prior attention approaching adulthood.
Attention given to marriage is necessarily also pretty consuming, 
especially if the family grows numerically.  Marriage can be very 
fulfilling as well as demanding, which is a part of the wonder of its
design.  If the couple are sincerely seeking God with all their hearts, 
it can make a great team.  But all too frequently, material interests are 
the logical common denominator which deafens us to the call of faith.

Marriages under stress can throw us onto the LORD in a new dimension, as 
some who are deprived of normal fellowship find the only viable outlet to 
be through the Spirit, interceding with groans that cannot be uttered 
(Romans 8:26).  No-one could ask to be taken on that path, but no-one could 
help being overcome by wonder at how He can meet our deepest need, even 
there.

							Andrew

>I'm told that when I talk about
>    the Lord, my "eyes" light up. :-) :-)  Imagine that?!

Sure I can imagine that.  When you talk about the Lord, the Love often shines
through ASCII text on a cold dead screen.  It doesn't take any imagination to
figure that it would shine out of your living eyes much more than that. :-)

>    I don't want to be ritualistic or rigid in my Christian personna
>    [meaning what people see in me], I'd rather be looked at as freaky and
>    have the "light" shine in my eyes... because that comes from the heart.

AMEN!  Freaky Christians unite!  :-)

&rew> No-one could ask to be taken on that path, but no-one could 
&rew> help being overcome by wonder at how He can meet our deepest need, even 
&rew> there.

So true.  I've been overcome by that wonder.  He is sufficient to meet every
need we have.

Paul

    RE:  .13
    
    True, Andrew.  I see that here too.  Marriage is elevated to the
    preferable status and singleness is looked on as this state that people
    think you should get out of at all costs.  But it's true.  I have time
    that married people don't to serve and I do.  It's frustrating though
    when they think I have no restraints on my time, which is not true.  I
    am always concerned when I see a church with a singles group that isn't
    serving, whether because they don't want to or they are not feeling
    welcome.  The singles at my church are servants.  We are recognized as
    such.  The staff has great appreciation for the singles, but some
    people still are under the disillusion that singles are flakey and they
    are just going to go where the tide takes them.  It's unfortunate. 
    Some of the most dedicated workers I've seen in the church, have been
    singles.
    
    If your church has singles, see if they are serving.  If not, find out
    why.
    
    God bless.
    
    Jill

      Some are willing to be eunochs for the glory of God.
    
      I think its Corinthians somewhere.

Hi Nancy,

I enjoyed your sharing your feelings about not being able to connect to some
Christian women when you are bubbling over. Our walk is a difficult walk. Our
experiences of life (puzzle pieces) that we share with others sometimes do 
not fit into the whole puzzle at times. It's an awkward feeling when we share an
experience that we are truly excited about and the people around us can't relate 
to us. My opinion is that when we have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit
there is a much closer more meaningful walk with the Lord. I know in my spirit 
that you are baptised in the Holy Spirit and your sensitivity is at a much
higher degree. Your walk is an intense walk - your heart is tuned into the Lord
daily. Your notes have a definite degree of sincere heart-attitude which are
a true witness to all of us of your love for the Lord. You have matured and
others probably cannot relate to you as they are at different levels in their
walk with the Lord. 

I, like you, are no better than anyone else, but I experience the same thing at
times. It's discouraging not being on the same wave length, but I am fortunate
enough to have a wife who can relate to me. Without her, I'd feel stuck knee
deep in alot of "misunderstanding quicksand". It's lonely being a Christian
sometimes isn't it?? Only the Father, Son and Holy Spirit can truly meet our
needs. I sometimes look for friends to satisfy the longing in my heart, but 
it never works. 

Have a great day,

Steve 

    

    Thank you Steve for your note.  It is a great encouragement.  
    
    There are so many in this forum from whom I've gleaned wisdom.  I've
    learned more in 3 years of noting here, than I could have in an intense
    Bible College... because what I've learned here has touched my heart,
    not my intellect.
    
    And the greatest thing of all....is this forum works as a mirror too,
    oftimes the most precious lesson is the one that exposes my weakness
    and causes me to take a hard look at myself.
    
    May the Lord always reach deep within in me to root out the impurities.
    
    Nancy

<---- Nancy, that is a great note.

    
    For those in agreement with .0 (which I am), I recommend the following
    three books:
    
    Knowing God		J.I. Packer
    Rediscovering Holiness J.I. Packer
    Holiness		J.C. Ryle
    
    jeff

Hmmmm.  I haven't read any of those, Jeff.  Thanks, I'll have to pick them up.

Right now I'm reading "Absolute Surrender" by Andrew Murray.

Paul

    Having recently read a John Bradshaw book, I must say that this is most
    likely anti-christian.  So I would urge caution when reading anything
    that John Bradshaw endorses.  
    
    Nancy

    
    I'd suggest caution regarding "When God becomes a drug" by Father Leo
    Booth also.  This book was discussed at length in CP some time ago
    and like Nancy said definitely had some anti-christian views.  
    
    Jill

�                      <<< Note 747.24 by CAPNET::ROSCH >>>
�    "When God becomes a drug" by Father Leo Booth (foreward by John Bradshaw)

This book is discussed in the CHRISTIAN-PERSPECTIVE conference, note 582.

From the description given (an extract from the first chapter), the author
clearly has no concept of a total expression of God in and through the
scriptures, and has a personal, limited view of what he perceived as the
world view of the writers of scripture.  The author appears to be afraid of
taking the Bible literally enough to include unique salvation.

It doesn't really sound as if this book offers inspiration...

								Andrew

    "Why Grace Changes Everything" - Pastor Chuck Smith

    OK, my last plugs before I leave (still here 2 more weeks):
    
    "Lifetime Guarantee"	- Bill Gilham
    "Classic Christianity"	- Bob George
    "Grace Works"		- Dudley Hall
    
    
    In Christ,
    
    Bing

      re: .21
    
      THANK YOU GLEN FOR ENCOURAGING ANOTHER!!!!!
      
      I noticed!!                           	
    
    						Bless Your Heart,
    
    						Tony

Right now I'm reading "Disciple" by Juan Carlos Ortiz.  It's great.  He's so
outrageously blunt, I've found myself laughing out loud about twice a chapter,
and the chapters are only a few pages long.

Paul

Hi Paul,

I had the privilege of seeing Juan Carlos at the First Congregational 
Church of Hopkinton about 6-7 years ago. We also laughed alot, but his message
hits home doesn't it?? 

Steve

At a church service on Sunday night, the person preaching at one point talked
about the Moravians several centuries ago.  I haven't studied that part of
church history and didn't really know that much about them.  He talked of the
100 year prayer vigil that they held.

But one thing he mentioned really hit me hard.  Some of the Moravians sold
themselves as galley slaves in order to witness to the slaves.  The life of a
galley slave was hard and short - they were chained to their oars, sat in
their own filth, were without shelter in the heat or sun or cold.  They lived
for maybe 5 years, 10 at the most, and many died before that.  When the
Moravians would sell themselves into that situation to witness Christ to the
other slaves, their family and friends would gather to pray and send them
off, and the money from their sale would be given to the poor.

How many of us would be willing to follow Christ like that, at that high a
cost?  Sometimes I think that we don't even have the first clue about
following Christ.

Paul

    Paul, 
    
    Who are the Moravians?  My initial shoot-from-the-hip answer is that
    Moravia is a small Balkan country - but your usage in .34 would seem to
    indicate more that they are a Christian sect.  
    
    Do they still exist - either as an ethnic group, or a denomination?  
    
    Thanks/John

>    Do they still exist - either as an ethnic group, or a denomination?  

Yes.  I attended my Great-Uncle's funeral at a Moravian church in Wisconsin
about 11 months ago.

    .34
    Thank you Paul for filling me in on the Moravians.
    
    It is true we are still far away from where God wants us to be but He
    is patient and knows what is in our hearts.
    
    My favourite book is "The immitation of Christ" there one can learn how
    to follow in His footsteps
    
    God Bless you 
    
    Peter