Conference yukon::christian_v7

    I would say salvation is critical but membership isn't.  Music is very
    spiritual and a key ingredient to worship.  God is to be worshiped in
    Spirit and truth so you must be a believer.
    
    Mike

    I'm not sure, I guess it would depend on a lot of factors.
    If I were a choir director, I think I'd allow a non-believer 
    to sing in the choir, but they would have to meet certain 
    conditions, one of which would be not to bad-mouth the church 
    or its theology either in the choir or outside the choir.  I'd
    probably want to have more believers than non-believers in 
    the choir though!  Asking questions about the church's theology 
    would be an entirely different thing than bad-mouthing & would 
    not only be allowed, but welcomed.

    The reason I say this is because I remember when a church I once 
    belonged to hired an organist who was an atheist, but who was a 
    very good musician and organist.  He was there every worship service, 
    couldn't help but hear the scripture reading and messages.  After
    awhile he began to meet with the pastor, asking questions. After a
    couple of years he Became a believer, then went to seminary, after
    which he pastored an inner city church somewhere around Boston, and 
    has been a wonderful witness for the Lord, bringing Yeshua's healing
    to many needy people.

    Leslie

    I've spent eight years in a church choir.  We had one or two token non
    believers, but no unusual results.  When they sang praises to God I
    always took it as praise, regardless of their faith or lack of it.  If
    they were lying as they sang, then that would be to their cost as sin,
    even if it is praise.  Their problem, not mine.
    
    It also gave us wonderful opportunities to show our lives to those non
    believers.  We had prayer before practice, silence before processing in
    to the service, a dress standard (well, "nighties"), punctuality, choir
    weekends away, choir suppers once a month, choir business meetings, and
    the occasional outside singing engagement.  Through all this they can't
    but help observe the believers in the choir, and even get to know them.
    
    There is the risk that non believers would cause trouble in the group,
    but that risk is low if they are known as non believers.  Christians
    generally have to put up with non believing people, so they are quite
    able to cope.
    
    The musical director should always warn non believers that their state
    is potentially short lived.  ;-)
    
    James

    .0
    
      I've been a member of our church's choir since last October, so if
    they let ME in they'll let anyone sing. Everyone in our choir is a
    Christian, but we had a Jewish woman singing for a while who left.
    Our organist brought an article to practice not too long ago from
    an editorial of the Boston Guild of Organists. Interesting in that
    the author was talking about new age meditation disks ripping off
    Gregorian chants, saying that these folks like to feel spiritual
    without actually having real spiritualiy...oh well my $29.95 worth.
    Our choir is going to be on an upcoming CD, recorded by our music
    director who lived for ~13 years in a Christian community in France
    we'll be doing some Taize pieces. My! I'm supposedly the token
    Russian Bass in the group. As Andy Warhol once said, "everyone gets
    their 15 minutes as a celebrity". Gee my name in the liner notes.
    
    
    ray

 In my church one must be a member to be in the choir, as well as agree to
 follow the standards set forth for choir members by the pastor and Deacons
 (which governs one's appearance while singing in the choir).




 Jim

    I think the replies here are indicating that it varies quite a bit -
    seemingly dependent on the particular choir directory. My (previous)
    choir director welcomed the unsaved into the choir. According to his
    philosophy, not many unsaved will *want* to sing praises to God, and
    the few that do are probably being nudged by the Holy Spirit. Once
    they're in, what better way for someone to accept the Lord as they
    spend several hours each week singing the Word and praising the Lord.
    
    My only concern would be one of church discipline. If even those
    proclaiming to be Christians can be "put out" of the church because of
    confronted yet unrepentent sin (Matt. 18; 1 Cor. 5), how can we keep
    the church pure if it contains unsaved folks regularly leading in
    worship?
    
    I'm glad it's not my call.
    
    	BD�

	I difficulty with this.  Perhaps
	it's due to my own reaction when I found that a couple
	I know made up 2/5 of the worship team at a Catholic Church
	each Sunday night.

	This couple was living together, and I couldn't help but
	feel that this was a poor witness.  I *know* their living
	arrangements would not be sanctioned by the Catholic Church,
	yet by being part of this worship team, they represent the
	church to which they belong.  They are now married, but I 	
	always wondered if the priest knew of their living arrangements.

	A woman my husband works with was also living with a man, and
	was a Sunday School teacher at her Methodist church.

	I don't know that I'd call them unbelievers, but I *know* they
	would not classify themselves as "saved".

	To answer the basenote directly, I do not believe that unbelievers
	should hold ministry positions in church (unless it's a church
	full of unbelievers ;-\ )

	Karen

If anyone is doing something on church business, they should be under church
authority, and expected to be living according to Biblical principles.  They
represent the LORD, and the church in their ministry. 

For some churches this means 'being a member' - certainly for, say, Sunday
School teaching etc, and probably anywhere where they would be seen as
publicly representing the church. 

Some cultures equate western civilisation with Christianity, and this is a
mindset which has seeped even into many non-Christians.  These people
tragically assume that western law is Christian law.  How much more will
people assume that what they see in the lives of those who participate in
public church performance represents practical Christian standards. 

The person who is not subject to church discipline (not a church member)
cannot speak for the church, even tacitly. 

There are marginal exceptions - when visiting in the States I have been
grateful for the opportunity to sing in church choirs.  But in that capacity I
considered myself under the church authority, and if they had found difficulty
in some area of my personal life or doctrine, I would naturally assume I
should change or leave!  I felt I was treated as an honorary member of the
church on those occasions.  I would guess the invitiation was given on a
similar basis, once they reckoned that I was one with them spiritually. 

The position of choir member can be quite demanding, and I would also have
thought that generally one would expect the level of commitment to the church
to be that of membership, if any proper spiritual commitment to a ministry of
the church is to be made. 

Clearly different places apply these things to a different degree, and in a 
different way, but this is my perception.

								Andrew

    re; -.1
>The position of choir member can be quite demanding, and I would also have
>thought that generally one would expect the level of commitment to the church
>to be that of membership, if any proper spiritual commitment to a ministry of
>the church is to be made. 

    Amen! One of the guys here in SNO (Steve Ollis) was in a recording
    studio until about 1am the day before yesterday due to his being part
    of his church's choir - *that's* commitment!

    Me? Well, I'm a member of the music team at my church - and that
    entails a level of commitment that, frankly, at times, I wish I didn't
    have to provide!

    But after I hit the first few chords on Sunday, and sing those first
    few notes - it is *worth* every second - and then some :')

    GBY,

	Harry

       i'm a professional gospel singer and vocal coach besides being a
    christian, also i obviously work here at digital too.......i do not
    boast..............you have to believe and accept the lord as saviour//
    your heart should sing for him....
                                thomas

    ray-
          theres times as a christian and vocalist, i have trouble singing
    in regards to passion....if my hearts not right with god, i'm dry in
    all areas of my life....the lords been letting me know that if i waited
    to be a "perfect" sinner to serve him and minister in music, i'd have
    to wait until i went to heaven.....however, i'm perfect in christ and
    the work is accomplished when i look at the cross and not the sinful
    nature i've inherited thru adam...........the anointing of the holy
    spirit is the difference............in all, ministry needs it, whether
    singing or as a preacher, teacher of the word........

	Ray,

	I'm not saying that choir members need be perfect, nor that
	I would like to be the judge of who can and cannot be members.

	However, I do feel that those people that volunteer for 
	church ministry should be able to say, "I agree with the
	teachings of this church".

	Karen

	Tonight is our last major choir event until late September.

	Today is the feast commonly known as Corpus Christi, the
	Commemoration of the Body and Blood of Our Lord and Saviour
	Jesus Christ.  We will be observing it with a solemn mass at
	6:30pm followed by Benediction and an outdoor (weather permitting)
	procession of the Blessed Sacrament.  A festive reception will
	be held afterwards in the parish hall.

	Today is a public holiday in Germany to allow the faithful to
	attend mass.  In the United States, the Roman Catholic Church
	has moved the observance to Sunday because of declining mass
	attendance at weekday feasts.

	We have no such problem at the Church of the Advent; we expect
	the building to be full tonight.

/john