Conference yukon::christian_v7

  I always watch Dr. Stanley on Sunday nights (well, sometimes I have to watch
  the video tape).  I love his teaching.  I also enjoy his son, Andy, immensely.




 Jim

I, too, have enjoyed Dr Stanley's teaching from time to time. I have been
very dismayed and disappointed, however, by his and his elders' extremely
wimpy non-stand regarding abortion. He espouses *no* civil action *of any 
kind* (including political activism) to counter abortion in this country.
As such, he has lost almost all credibility with me.

Brian

    
    When I moved from California to Atlanta I was looking for a church.  I
    had seen Stanley on t.v. so I tried out 1st Baptist Church of Atlanta. 
    I met my wife there the first time I visited.
    
    I think Stanley's style (southern) is very appealing to many folks,
    especially yankees ;) and many southerners too.  However, I think his
    theology is kind of tortured, Baptists being of Reformed beginnings and
    then adopting much of Arminianism later.
    
    He has been separated from his wife now for at least 2 years, maybe
    more.  The press has been so quiet about it that they either see him as
    an irrelevant figure or God has just shut their mouths (and pens).  I
    did hear lately that his wife was not willing to reconcile and that
    divorce might be imminent but this could simply be unfounded rumor.
    
    All-in-all (or is that All-in-1?) I think he's an appealing figure with
    some giftedness as a preacher.
    
    jeff

 What would you like Dr. Stanley to do?

 I had heard that Dr. Stanley and his wife had separated, but thought they
 had reconciled.  I must admit, this troubles me considerably.




 Jim

    Why should it trouble anyone.  Is Dr. Stanley committing adultery?
    
    I know the Bible says that those who are in leadership should have
    their homes in order, but lets be realistic, sometimes people do things
    in marriage which are of no reflection on the partner.
    
    Nancy [be slow to judge all peoples]

 I'm not judging Dr. Stanley.  I love his teaching and as I said I watch every
 Sunday night (admittedly falling asleep on the couch from time to time but
 that's not his fault).  I'm merely troubled by the fact that they are separated
 and have a slight concern for the ministry and the credibility thereof.




 Jim

    I have to agree with Nancy and be slow to judge.  I've listened to Dr.
    Stanley many times and I'm always edified by his teaching.  We must
    simply look to the fruits of his life and preaching and watch for the
    work of God.  We can't see into his or his wifes' heart so I feel I
    can't judge or even have an opinion.
    
    Tim

    
    Not only would I be slow to judge but I wouldn't judge at all at this
    point.  As I stated it has been remarkably quiet with almost no details
    coming to light.  We know Stanley's a good man.  We must give him the
    benefit of the doubt until further information comes to light.  And
    pray for him.  I do know that during these past few years it seems his
    book writing has increased a good bit which probably reflects the
    outpouring of God's grace as he's endured and perservered in his
    sufferings.
    
    jeff

It's not a question of judging the individual, but of qualification for a task.

1 Timothy 3 outlines requirements of someone holding office in the church.  
Verse 4 says:

    "He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey 
     him with proper respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his 
     own family, how can he take care of God's church?)"

If someone's very marriage is fracturing, there's something very wrong.
The husband is not able to exercise his rightful spiritual authority, 
whether the split is seen as his fault or not - it usually is perceived 
this way, because of the 1 Peter 3:7 principle :

    "Husbands,  in the same way be considerate as yuo live with your wives, 
     and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you 
     of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers."

In addition to this, the faltering marriage is a point of weakness for the 
devil to attack.  The members of the family are already under significant 
emotional pressure, which is going to affect response to demands upon them. 
At This point, this is not the man to shoulder the burdens of a fellowship
before the LORD.

There may well be value in his teaching, but there will also be weaknesses, 
because he cannot teach in his personal gaps.  Brian has highlighted one 
area.  I don't know whether this is directly connected with the marriage 
situation or not, and this does not concern me.  My point is just that the 
tensions will distort his perception and teaching in certain details.

An example of this is David.  Following his adultery with Bathsheba, he sought
and received forgiveness, but his life still had that weak point, so he
couldn't deal with the problem of Amnon's attack on his sister in 2 Samuel 13.
 This meant that Absalom's anger overflowed into a retribution which put him
outside the law, and alienated him from his father, the king. From there, it
progressed to his own rebellion, and ongoing trouble and distress for David. 
It makes Nathan's word from the LORD on the original sin in 2 2 Samuel 12:10 
almost look inevitable....
   "Now, therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because 
    you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own."

   "Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you 
    know that we who teach will be judged more strictly..."
								James 3:1


At least, that's my perception of the situation, but without knowing either 
the man or his ministry, so please pass the salt.

					God bless
							Andrew

     brothers, sisters
    
          i started all this charles stanley stuff,i'd like to add
    this.....divorce is the result of sin, plain and somewhat simple. as
    he appears the authoritative figure both in his ministry and at home,
    his wife, of coarse, still has a mind of her own, we don;t know why
    they have been going thru all this, specifically, but i feel the wisdom
    that god has given dr. charles stanley, he'd know how to work it
    out..i'm not pointing all my fingers at the wife but there is some
    problems only god can work out.........charles stanley is a good
    preacher because of gods grace, but hes not my saviour......as for his
    southern gospel appeal mentioned in a previous reply, it's the spirit
    of god thats attractive thru him, to the believer.......he's a mere man
    and we need not to set our trust in man, but god, as you know...
    
                in christ,  thomas

    If they're separated there is still hope for reconciliation.  Pray for
    them.

    let's not forget lot's job's wife. she turned her back on job in his
    deepest time of temption telling him "curse your God die". but yet
    job was a WINNER! from the start and to the last!
    
    let's remember lot's wife, she backslid and was turned into salt.
    lot had nothing to do with her rebellion to the angels warning
    to not look back. but yet, lot was saved!
    
    and remeber david's wife michel "the daughter of saul" was cursed
    with a barren womb, for dispising david for openly praising God!
    and this was before david's sin of adultry.
    
    In all these cases this were upright men of God, being used of God.
    God at any time could have stop any of their wifes from backsliding
    to save face, but he DIDN"T!
    
    "...through much tribulation shall you enter into the Kingdom of
     Heaven"
    
    if brother stanley can maintain the way he has since his been going
    through. He IS SOME MAN! 
    
    "....If any have a unbelieving spouse and they are pleased to stay,
    let not the beleiver depart. But if the unbeleiving depart let them
    go for God has called us unto peace: inwhich case a brother or sister
    is not under bondage.."
    
    'brother 

    correction- job seemed not to be greatly used of God as the others
                but he was still considered JUST! inspite of his Wife.
    
    keep prayen for one another.
    
    brother,

Thanks Al.

I'm always surprised at the grace of the LORD in referring to Lot as a 
'righteous' man, in 2 Peter 2:7, after his choice of living in Sodom...

However, the principle I was raising was one of suitability for ministry 
according to the explicit instruction of 1 Timothy 3:2..11 etc.

While time under tribulation refines the gold, the time for external 
ministry is 'afterwards' rather than 'during'.

Pray on!


					God bless
							Andrew

Meanwhile, we do not forget the holy women who have been sanctified by 
bearing with husbands who are less than they should be.  Usually these are 
easy enough to locate, but the outstanding example in the Bible is 
Abigail, who stood by Nabal and preotected him from the effects of his own 
folly, until the LORD brought judgement on him, in 1 Samuel 25.
 
I would hate anyone to think that Al's examples typify an attitude to 
either sex.

							Andrew

    .13
    
       People tell me to curse G_d and die all the time. Unlike Job, I
    cannot claim to be among G_d's fave chill'ns. Now do you mean to
    say Lot's wife went to hell for looking back. I fess up, where are
    those lead beaded leather thongs i usually beat myself with. What!
    G_d didn't want Lot's wife to witness the nuking of Sodom. Of course
    if you stare into a nuclear fireball ya can wreck yer eyes. I have
    been told Lot's wife turning into salt is a symbolism, not like G_d
    actually turned her into a pile of road salt. And I also have a very
    hard time reconciling the warrior Jehovah God of the Old Testament
    with the kind, healing loving forgiving Jesus of the New.
    
       My my, ever since Eve, these wimmins has been getting their myn
    into trouble, and i still have a hard time also integrating all the
    stuff about God punishing women {pain of childbirth, etc} Another
    question, do myn actshully have one less rib on one side than the
    other; too lazy to look it up on my ceedee-rom medi-bible. Of course
    when i was stationed below the waistband of the Bible belt, many of
    the preechahs were exhorting that black folk were black because G_D
    wuz punishing them "mark of Cain" dark, colored, etc. No wonder i
    always felt mo comfortable in the black Baptist churches than the
    tents and storefront thumpatoriums. At times I feel quite down and/
    or confused over Murca's heartland and Bible belt attitudes. Jesus
    himself said to chat once, twice a few times and if they didn't want
    to listen, wipe their dust of their town off yer feet and move in.
    Maybe, since ahh ain't a scripture spewing 2 nanosecond access for any
    passage, believer, ahh's missing something. I do not remember the
    savior saying, "if they don't listen, then gather up a posse , hunt
    them down and kill them."
    
       Sorry ahh wuz away on a 3+ day retreat with mah church and we got
    into lots of rousing chats about reconciling the old and new. Then
    we got into some role playing skits where we acted out parts of
    Scripture, mostly about Jesus healing when the old farts said ya
    shouldn't. In one I got to act out the Pharassee, who everyone 
    thought i'de do a very creative job doing. Actshully that role
    felt uncomfy, then in another i got to play the friends of Jesus
    who were defending the healed's claims. That role felt much better.
    
    BTW, the retreat was about healing, reconciliation with G_d and one's
    neighbor, forgiveness, etc, etc.
    
    ttfn ray

Hi Ray .... You've been fed bad food there, bro.  You've had a tough time, 
but you still hang on that it's Jesus' blood that cleanses us from all sin.
Hebrews 12 tells us that those God loves, He disciplines.  Not because He's 
vindictive, but because He loves us - His kids - enough to make sure we're
the best we can be for eternity.  If you see your own kid doing wrong
through ignorance, you care about them enough to make sure they learn the
right way - if they keep playing on the freeway, the pain of a spanking is
going to get through their skulls in a memorable way, so they stop playing
there.  You don't *want* to spank them, but you know they *need* it if
they're not going to get hit harder than they can take...  You hit them
just as much as they need to learn, because you love them.

Sometimes the hits here seem out of proportion to whatever it is we're 
meant to be learning, which goes on in our soul.  But we need to trust in 
the God Who made us, knowing that He loves us, because He took the worst 
hit of our sin.  Ray, with all you go through, you may end up far above me
in heaven.  But I know you won't be too proud to recognise me ;-)

� I also have a very hard time reconciling the warrior Jehovah God of the
� Old Testament with the kind, healing loving forgiving Jesus of the New. 
I preached on that once, because although God has a 'hard' reputation in 
the Old Testament, really He's as merciful and loving there as in the New.
It's just that the circumstances are different, and He's teaching mankind 
something different at that stage.  Actual sin is more to the fore in the 
Old Testament, which is why its treatment is also more visible.  In the New 
Testament, sin is being dealt with itself...

� Another question, do myn actshully have one less rib on one side than the
� other; 
If you had a rib surgically removed - or a limb, or any part - and then 
went on to father kids, would they also have thay part missing?  When Adam 
had his rib removed it didn't alter his genetic DNA code stuff...

� many of the preechahs were exhorting that black folk were black because G_D
� wuz punishing them "mark of Cain" dark, colored, etc. 
Cain was before the flood.  Only Noah and his sons, and all their wives 
came through the flood.  None of Cain's descendents at all.  Ray, you
and I both aren't related to Cain except in a complicated loop going back
through Adam...  I guess what they meant was Ham...  That's a bad hang-up
from a misreading of Genesis 9:25.  The curse was actually on Canaan, a son
of Ham.  And the finality of that curse was when Canaan was wiped out (just
about) by Israel, when they went into the promised land from Egypt.... 

� Maybe, since ahh ain't a scripture spewing 2 nanosecond access for any
� passage, believer, ahh's missing something. 
Me too.  I get big mental blocks at times which take a deal of shifting.

� I do not remember the savior saying, "if they don't listen, then gather
� up a posse , hunt them down and kill them." 
Yes.  That's a passage I can't seem to locate myself....  Tell me when you 
find it.  Maybe....

								Andrew

    
    Hmmm...I've always had a lot of respect for Dr. Stanley.  Sorry to
    here that the SBC excluded him from photos as well.  If this is, as
    you say, beyond his control, I don't feel this fuss about losing 
    his pastorate is justifiable.  He would still be the husband of
    one wife.  
    
    Sometimes I think the christian community is so bad when it comes
    to forgiveness and mercy...at least the people who seem to be grabbing
    the headlines anyway.   :'(
    
    Jilla
    

    
    Well Jay I have always had a great deal of respect for Charles
    Stanley as well.  Without knowing the situation, I couldn't say
    one way or the other if he should be asked to step down.  However,
    I always recommend caution about putting any teacher on a pedestal.
    We need to look at their conduct with spirit-filled eyes and see
    where the truth lies.  But it's true, we all have people we respect
    a great deal.  It will be a shame if he let any indiscretion come
    between him and his ordained ministry.  It will be an even bigger
    shame if he is innocent of any wrongdoing and his ordained ministry
    is taken from him by foolish men.
    
    IMHO, Jilla

    Stanley wants to step down but his church does not want him to.
    

    
    Well, if he feels God is leading him to step down, he should.
    But if he is just ashamed that his wife left him and is concerned
    that God will still use him and God hasn't told him to step down,
    I think he should stay.  He is still the husband of one wife.
    
    Jilla
    

I read a couple of months ago in the local newspaper that stanley claimed
God told him not leave as pastor of the church.  He warned the congregation, i
n so many words, that they would be going againstthe direct will of God by
kicking him out.


[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]

    <--- I wouldn't depend on local newspapers for accurate reporting,
    especially on topics related to religion.

 
 I heard yesterday that Dr. Stanley and his wife are reconciling.  Don't
 know any other details.




 Jim

     Hi,
    
        I was told by a friend that Charles Stanley had mentioned something
    on his broadcast a few weeks back about getting back together after
    being seperated. Has anyone heard anything?
    
             in him, Thomas

 Charles Stanley has a book out called "The Power and the Glory" (I think
that is the name), which is a collection of brief messages on various
subjects.  There is a section on relationships, for example, and the
section contains scripture pertaining to a relationship as well as 
commentary and application.  It covers areas such as restoration and sin,
and many other significant subjects.

I picked up a copy last week, and recommend it.




Jim