Conference yukon::christian_v7

    Dear Mods,

	I think rather than separating out a couple of strings in 728, I
	may have confused the issue by splitting the discussion. I suggest
	that you may like to move this string back into the other topic
	(sorry for the confusion)

				Harry

Hi Harry,

Your request noted, but were you actually asking a different question?

.1  Asks whether 'eternal punishment' couldn't constitute annihilation 
    rather than perpetual suffering, 

.2  Suggests that 'eternal punishment' is merely a fear motivation to drive 
    people to seek salvation, and is therefore invalid.

It seems to me that these are irrelevant to the orignal question (though 
perfectly valid questions in themselves, if Suzanne would like to raise 
them as a topic).

I understand the original question to be asking us to discuss why there is 
a judgement at all.  Why agap� is constrained by justice to admit to heaven 
those who are made pure by Jesus' blood.  Why agap� does not admit to 
heaven all, complete with sin (hey, why get cliquish about this - why not 
the devil too!), who would effectively turn heaven into hell...

Harry, if this is your question, I see it as distinct from 728.  However,
if you actually meant to discuss the distinction between perspectives on
eternal punishment, then I guess that *is* one of 728's sidetracks... ;-)

							Andrew

re .0

Harry,

I enjoyed your base note.

;4 - so why can't God just let every one in to Heaven?

;And the answer is hidden in that last question. "Justice"

I don't believe all will go to heaven (compare 2 Peter 3:13
that discusses new heavens and new earth in which righteous-
ness is to dwell). But with this as an aside, I would also
say that it was an act of love (agap'e) to rid mankind of
the wicked. It is also just that those who want to serve and
worship God will at some point be able to do so without
undergoing persecution or even death for their faith. Removing
such a wicked element would indeed be just. However, with such
ones removed, what justice is served by inflicting conscious
torment upon someone for all eternity?. Couple this with the
fact that Jesus told his disciples to "love" their enemies.
Then how are they to view this command? if they are taught
that through "love" God will punish wicked ones by inflicting
pain for all eternity?. This is what many find it hard to stomach 
the hellfire teaching. But is such a teaching really taught in 
the Bible. Obviously, hell or Hades is mentioned in the Bible
the contention is over the nature of it.

Phil.

	Perhaps (and I'm not suggesting this is a simple task), some
	kind moderator could move all the "eternal separation/is there
	a hell" notes to one single topic, and let these two others
	to back to their original topics ??
	
	Karen

Just sticking my nose in for a bit...

I don't believe that it's possible to redefine love by relating it to justice.
Justice is the just reward/punishment for actions.  Love, at least in the 
context of the Gospel, is forgiveness independant of our actions, ie grace.
So, in that sense, eternal life given as a gift because of our faith, which
itself is brought about by God's grace, is unjust.

Justice is:

	God punishing the sinner (eternally) because of sin (actions based 
		on hate towards God)

	God rewarding the saint (in eternity) based on his service of love
		to God, and man

Love is:

	God (Jesus) died on the cross, the Just for the unjust

	God gives eternal life to those who love Him (without getting into
		the relationships of mercy to justice and grace to faith,
		other topic(s) altogether)

Because, God is love; He has done all that He can to pave the way so that man
does not have to spend eternity seperated from Him (however you might want to
define that).  We have the choice to accept His Grace and avoid eternal dam-
nation, or despise His death on the cross, and pay the price.

When you get right down to it, you might look at eternal damnation being 
nothing more than the sinner continuing in his hate towards God, and eternal
life as the saint continuing in his love towards God.  The person who hates
God in this life, will hate Him for all eternity, and vice versa.

Rob

I have responded to the requests, and moved notes discussing modes of
punishment into the new note 737, formed for that very purpose. 

My apologies if anyone feels any note(s) from 736.* or 728.* have been
inappropriately moved.  I took each one on its merits, and it seems that
we don't always all arrive in the place where we would wish to be ;-{

							Andrew
						     co-moderator

    What happened to Phil Yerkess' notes summarizing how the burning is
    symbolic and not literal?  I did not see them in the original note or
    in the new notes. I now see two major points of agreement between
    UU's and Jehovah's Witnesses.
    

See 728.114 and the continuing discussion in note 94

						Andrew

    I guess I'm a bit confused as to why there seems to be a tendency to
    view love and justice as oppositional (that may be too strong a word) 
    forces. If God is love then it would seem that justice is but a
    component of love. Our understanding of justice is limited by our
    humanity, what we know of justice, how we've defined justice and
    attempted to implement it in our society. Perhaps that view also limits
    our understanding of love. Perhaps for God, justice is integrally
    related to love, in a way that we do not yet fully understand.
    
    Sometimes I think of a white sheet of paper, representing time and the
    world as I know it, and myself as a dot on that piece of paper. I
    cannot see to the edges of the paper, just as I cannot see to the end
    of time or fully grasp the world that surrounds me. God, in eternity, 
    in looking down, can see all there is of me, all there is of time and
    of the world. I, in looking up, see only a limited portion of God, my
    view cannot encompass all that He is. And so it shall be until the end
    of time when He calls us Home. 
    
    The sense that I have of this issue, is that we're not stretching far
    enough in our understanding of love and justice, (perhaps we can't
    stretch that far). And I always end up back in the same place, which is
    trusting Him, His perfect Nature, instead of what would seem logical to
    my limited view.
    
    Rebecca    

     I can agree completely with what Rebecca has written!!!!

     Leslie

    I see no conflict between God's Love and God's justice.  We are all
    created in the image of God, and thereby have the faculty to understand
    God at least dimly.
    
    What some humans have identified as aspects of God's love and aspects
    of God's justice, I have major difficulty with.
    
    Christian simplicity is having faith in God's love and Faith in God's
    justice.  That implies having faith in our own ability to comprehend
    God's love and God's justice.
    
    As we can comprehend the difference between parental love and
    discipline and child abuse, so too we can comprehend the difference
    between God's justice, and abuse that some humans would attribute to
    God.

    
    Nice note Rebecca.
    
    Jill

      Hi Rebecca,
    
        I agree.  I see the doctrines of the plan of redemption
        to be like concentric circles where some doctrines are
        outer circles and naturally emanate from the inner ones;
        the bulls eye circle being agape (like an archery target).
    
        I do not believe God punishes for sin at least not in the
        eternal sense.  If He did, the basis the Bible gives for
        right standing wouldn't make any sense (see life of Abraham
        in Genesis and Romans 4).
    
        I see justice as God not circumventing spiritual reality 
        which is that death is inherent to sin and life is inherent
        to righteousness.  One reason we enjoy life right now is 
        because God is veiling a full revelation of His love.  None
        but Jesus have entered behind the veil into the Most Holy.
    
        God simply cannot circumvent the reality that if one insists
        on a life of sin, God's unveiled love will arouse the full
        destructive force of sin and cause the sinner to be destroyed.
                     
        This is justice.  Not circumventing the reality of the psycho-
        logy of sin and righteousness.
    
    							Tony

	Patricia, what a great note. Thanks for posting it, and I couldn't
agree with you more. 


Glen

Some good ones here...

I appreciated your last paragraph particularly, Patricia; the world is so
confused that it is losing the ability to distinguish between the necessity
of loving discipline in training up a child to become a responsible adult,
and criminal abuse. 

I wasn't so sure about the paragraph on simplicity :
    
�    Christian simplicity is having faith in God's love and Faith in God's
�    justice.  That implies having faith in our own ability to comprehend
�    God's love and God's justice.
I would rather express the last sentence as "That implies having faith in
God's love and justice combining to provide salvation in the sincere seeker." 
ie - we don't need to comprehend it (because things of an eternal dimension
- including our justification - are outside our total comrehension), but we
do need to trust Him.

Hebrews 11:6 puts it :
   "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who 
    comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who
    earnestly seek Him."

We know that He is great enough to take care of us, even in the mess we're in! 

								Andrew

    I have Faith in God's love and God's justice.  In taking stock of
    myself, I ask myself, what is it that God wants of me.  The answer is a
    simple one.  He wants me to love God with all my heart mind and soul
    and love my neighbor as myself.
    
    It is plain from reading the Bible where Jesus was asked directly what
    is it that is the greatest commandment and that was his reply.  A quote
    from the old testament, found in several of the gospels and found also
    in Paul(I believe).
    
    It is clear to me that this is what God wants.  It is more important
    than right belief, more important than write doctrine, more important
    than right theory of biblical authority.
    
    This quote is found in Matthew were Jesus goes on to teach that those
    who are of God will be known by their fruit.  And it is clear that the
    Good fruit is the fruit of loving God and loving neighbor.
    
    It is not hard to know what Love is.  It is felt with the whole self. 
    When we are in the presence of someone who loves us and us them,
    whether it be parent, friend, or beloved, we feel warm.  We feel
    special.  We feel affirmed and accepted and challenged to be the best
    we can be.  A parent who loves a child will do everything necessary to
    bring out the best powers possible in that child.  A Good Parents never give
    up on their children no matter how often the child screws up.  The
    parent will use different strategies of discipline, different
    approaches including tough love if it is called for, but the Good
    parent never gives up.
    
    The Bible descibes God as that parent.  "Abba" Daddy.  Ask and it shall
    be given.  Seek and you shall find.  It is very clear that God's love
    for us is like the love of the Good parent.  It is also very clear as
    Jesus tells these stories that the God he is talking about is God the
    father, who we should be asking, seeking etc.  Jesus does not tell us
    to seek these things from him.
    
    There are some who would say, "That is not what love is all about" 
    Love has a need for justice and justice requires punishment for those
    who are evil and eternal torment is just punishment for humanities
    evil"  This confronts all our sensibilities.  We know from the depth of
    our being that know good parent would torment a child.  That what a
    good parent seeks is that the child becomes a good person and all
    punishment will be geared to making the child a good person.  What we
    have at the depth of our being is our conscience, our soul, our heart.
    
    When people say that what we know at the depth of our being for the true,
    wonderful, love of God is not at all love. That it is a deception. 
    That God exhibits his love by selecting some for eternal pleasure and
    others for eternal torture.  This is the other Gospel.  It is the wolve
    in sheeps clothing that teaches that that which is sadistic is in fact 
    God's love and justice.
    
    Fortunately we are created in the image of God and we have reason,
    conscience, intuition, heart, soul.  We have what is needed to know
    what is love, what is justice, what is mercy.  What is of God.

Patricia, you have consistently said "Who are we to judge" another's view of
Christ, applying that to yourself, and the way you have felt unfairly judged
in some of your views by participants here.  Could you reconcile for me that
stance with this:

>   When people say that what we know at the depth of our being for the true,
>   wonderful, love of God is not at all love. That it is a deception. 
>   That God exhibits his love by selecting some for eternal pleasure and
>   others for eternal torture.  This is the other Gospel.  It is the wolve
>   in sheeps clothing that teaches that that which is sadistic is in fact 
>   God's love and justice.

Here you take other people's stance, their belief, and soundly judge it as
"the other Gospel."  Calling that belief "The wolf in sheep's clothing" is
essentially to claim that it is Satanic, since the context of that passage is
talking about false prophets who are deliberately leading people astray.

You have gotten extremely upset over having your beliefs called into question
here, and have claimed that Christ's followers should never do such a thing. 
Yet it very much seems here that you are doing precisely the same.

Could you reconcile these for me?

Paul