Conference yukon::christian_v7

    
    RE:  727.10
    
    Hi Jeff, the terminology may not be a direct quote from the bible
    however, it is not without some precedence.  You won't find the
    term Trinity in the bible either, but I do hope you believe
    in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
    
    I believe that "asking Christ into your heart" is more about
    a mental picture than a stating of some exact process of
    becoming a christian.  I think there are several verses that
    I believe uphold the mental picture that these words portray.
    Here are two:
    
    --------------------------------------------------
    Rev 3:20
    Here I am!  I stand at the door and knock.  If anyone hears
    my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with
    him, and he with me.
    
    Eph 3:14-17 (the first part of my favorite passage) listed in .12
    "For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom his whole family
    in heaven and on earth derives its name.  I pray that out of his
    glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through the Spirit
    in your inner being, so that Christ MAY DWELL IN YOUR HEARTS through
    faith..."
    --------------------------------------------------
    
    So there is a mental picture given in the bible of Christ standing
    at the door (to our hearts) and us letting Him in to dwell in our
    hearts.  And I think that Christ who spoke often in mental pictures 
    will understand this terminology just fine since it is the heart 
    he examines.
    
    Take care and God bless.
    
    Love in Christ,
    Jill

Ezekiel 36:26-27
    A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within
 you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give
 you an heart of flesh.
 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my
 statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
    
Jeremiah 31:33  
    But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of
 Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward
 parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be
 my people.

 Hi Jill!
       
>    Hi Jeff, the terminology may not be a direct quote from the bible
>    however, it is not without some precedence.  You won't find the
>    term Trinity in the bible either, but I do hope you believe
>    in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
    
    The individuals of the Godhead are mentioned throughout the Bible, of
    course.  We conveniently call them the Trinity.  The fact of the matter
    is that the term "ask Jesus into your heart" cannot be found in the
    Bible and it cannot be found to represent, even as a word picture, the
    gospel of Christ, the Revelation passage notwithstanding.  You will notice 
    that all quotations provided on the word "heart" are outside of Matthew, 
    Mark, Luke or John.
    
    So here is a situation where the single most important message of the
    Bible - Jesus' work on the cross on behalf of humankind and the way man
    may be saved - is reduced to the phrase and idea, "ask Jesus into your 
    heart", which is not found in the Bible while the many, many phrases which
    are in the Bible and might be used are not.
    
    How is this explained? 
    
    jeff
    

	I think what is being talked about here is some sort of moment
	of conversion.

	The idea that there must be a specific conversion experience
	is an attribute primarily of American Evangelical Churches.
	While many people do have specific conversion experiences,
	it is not necessarily the way all Christians respond to God.

	I ask Jesus into my heart every time I receive Him in the
	Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar:

                       Soul of Christ, sanctify me.
                         Body of Christ, save me;
                      Blood of Christ, inebriate me;
                 Water from the side of Christ, wash me;
                     Passion of Christ strengthen me;
                          O good Jesus, hear me;
                        Within thy wounds hide me;
                 Suffer me not to be separated from thee;
                   From the malicious enemy defend me;
                     In the hour of my death call me,
                         And bid me come to thee.
                  That with thy Saints I may praise thee
                        For ever and ever.  Amen.

    Thanks for moving this hear Andrew.  I really didn't want Nathan's
    project derailed by other matters.
    
    Well Jeff, I respectfully disagree with you.  The heart is a key part
    of our relationship with God.  In our hearts we sin, in our hearts we
    believe.  I think there is plenty of scripture to support this mental
    picture.  I have provided you with verses and below are more.  You
    simply say I'm wrong, no scripture provided to say why. Just that I'm
    wrong.  And while I respect you as a brother, you are not the Author of
    my faith, therefore I ask that you provide scriptural evidence of why
    this is an inaccurate mental picture of someone coming to salvation. 
    Back up what you say with God's word then we can work on this from
    common ground.
    
    We seek God with our hearts (Ps. 119:10) 
    We hide his word in our hearts (Ps. 119:11) 
    We obey it with our hearts (Ps. 119:58) 
    We trust in the LORD with our hearts (Prov. 3:5) 
    We (God) will make our home with him (John 14:23)  <Jesus speaking> 
    Christ dwells in our hearts (Eph 3:17)
    If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in..." (Rev
                                                                     3:20)
    
    What is it talking about in John when Jesus said we'll make our home
    with him?  What is it talking about in Ephesians when it says Christ
    dwells in our hearts?  What is it talking about in Rev. when Christ
    says that if we open the door, he'll come in?  What door?  Isn't it the
    door to our hearts?  Again, I ask you to point me to scripture.
    
    Respectfully with the love of Christ, Jill  

    
    Hi John,
    
    Actually I believe that salvation is a tri-fold proposition.  I wish I
    could remember the exact reference where the verb is used that is not
    just a "I was saved at this time...but also meaning I am being saved.
    continually.
    
    I took a class some time ago called "The Baptist faith and message".
    They explained salvation this way.  I'll try to dig out the book as
    it has scripture references.  I thought they made a strong case for
    this belief.
    
    ----------
    
    There's the moment of conversion (this may be a gradual process and not
    necessarily a distinct moment in time) where the person realizes they
    are a sinner in need of saving and they recognize that Christ was the
    payment for our sins and his resurrection the power for life and they
    claim Christ as Lord.  We are saved from the PUNISHMENT of sin.
    
    Then there is a daily saving from the POWER of sin.
    
    Then there is our glorification when we shall see God as He is and
    become like him and are forever separated from the PRESENCE of sin.
        
    ----------       
    
    Jill

    RE: LAST
    
    ..."I was saved at this time...but also meaning I am being saved."
    
    Thanks for saying this Jill.  That's how I feel (and didn't express
    very well) in my response to Nathan's question "How has being a
    Christian changed your life" or something to that effect.  I feel, for
    me, it has been a process, a continuing revelation of each day
    determining if I am in His will or not, and if I'm not, what can I do
    to get there.  There is the moment of conversion (recognizing our need
    for a savior & forgiveness) and then there is the on-going process of 
    santification (living out our faith).
    
    Karen

>    Well Jeff, I respectfully disagree with you.  The heart is a key part
>    of our relationship with God.  In our hearts we sin, in our hearts we
>    believe.  I think there is plenty of scripture to support this mental
>    picture.  I have provided you with verses and below are more.  You
>    simply say I'm wrong, no scripture provided to say why. Just that I'm
>    wrong.  And while I respect you as a brother, you are not the Author of
>    my faith, therefore I ask that you provide scriptural evidence of why
>    this is an inaccurate mental picture of someone coming to salvation. 
>    Back up what you say with God's word then we can work on this from
>    common ground.
 
    First off Jill, I sense in your reply some anger or frustration toward
    me that I don't think is warranted. Or maybe its just the medium.  
    
    Why defend a phrase (ask Jesus into your heart) as what a regenerated
    sinner must do to be saved that is not in the gospels?  Not only 
    is it not in the gospels but it is not in the Bible at all.  This is not 
    simply a matter of semantics.
    
    Let me be clear.  I'm not questioning the clear teaching of Scripture
    on the subject of "the heart" in any way.   
    
    jeff

A phrase, oft repeated, in a book I recently read by Francis Frangipane:

"Victory begins with the name of Jesus on our lips, and is consummated by the
nature of Jesus living in our hearts."

The day we accept the Lord, our victory has begun.  Should we die the next
day, we are counted as victorious in Christ.  Yet there is still a long way
to go to reach the victory Christ has in store for us.

Paul

      I might be saying something someone else already said as I haven't
      read any replies, but God looks on the heart.
    
      Sometimes we say things we really don't mean.  Oftentimes, we 
      probably don't even know what we mean.  I knew a guy who told me
      he was born-again a couple years previous in California along
      with a few hundred other people!  After all, he asked the Lord
      into his heart.  My discernment was that he was not, though of 
      course I could be wrong - only God knows the heart and only God
      is Judge.
    
      Its the heart that matters, not the words.
    
      In my case, I know a certain date that I was definitely born-
      again for Christ became so real to me that I was totally obsessed
      with Him and spent every moment thinking of Him.
    
      But, I think its very possible that God could play a VCR tape
      of my life and say, "This is when you were first born-again" and
      it may have been some time previous and a time I would not have
      discerned.  I really think that is highly possible.
                                                     
    						Tony

    RE: .8
    
    Hi Jeff,
    
    My point was precisely that this is not an exact process of how a
    sinner must be saved.  All I said was that this is a mental picture
    that I believe most christians understand and that there are words used
    in the bible that promote this imagery.  I also believe I've shown
    evidence of that.
    
    What I don't understand is your fierce renunciation of this simply
    because the "phrase" isn't in the bible.  Are all the phrases that your
    pastor uses out of the bible?  My pastor is a modern-parable teller who
    then applies scripture to modern day life.  Are the people who are
    moved by the Spirit to come forward at the end of the service and be
    saved not saved because he used phrases within his sermon that were 
    not from the bible? I'm not sure I understand what your point is and 
    perhaps that is what you are sensing as frustration.  But no, I'm not 
    angry at all.  Do you have some scriptural premise that says people 
    should not describe spiritual issues with other than phrases directly 
    out of the bible?  I just don't get it.
    
    Jill

	
    Howdy Jill,
        
>    My point was precisely that this is not an exact process of how a
>    sinner must be saved.  All I said was that this is a mental picture
>    that I believe most christians understand and that there are words used
>    in the bible that promote this imagery.  I also believe I've shown
>    evidence of that.
    
    My point is that this is precisely the language used by many, many
    evangelicals today to describe what one must do to be saved.  It is not
    biblical. And it is not intuitive, either as a word picture or
    in the words themselves, that repentance and belief in Christ is what
    is required to be saved.
        
>    What I don't understand is your fierce renunciation of this simply
>    because the "phrase" isn't in the bible.  Are all the phrases that your
>    pastor uses out of the bible?  My pastor is a modern-parable teller who
>    then applies scripture to modern day life.  Are the people who are
    
    I have not renounced this phrase simply because it is not in the Bible. 
    I have renounced the idea that the phrase represents an accurate
    description of what one must do to be saved. The fact that it is not in
    the Bible simply completes the argument.
    
    jeff

    "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become
    children of God".  (John 1:12)
    
    I believe there IS a receiving process in becoming a Christian.  I
    prefer to say "receive Christ in my LIFE" rather than "into my heart",
    simply because children can sometimes get confused that Christ only
    lives in part of them, rather than filling them.  I don't see it as a
    big deal though.  Christ DOES come to live in those who receive Him and
    the heart IS pictured throughout the bible as that part of man which
    drives his/her desires and attitudes.  Receiving Christ into one's heart is
    a picture of giving Christ the throne of ones life - of allowing Him to
    be in control and being in dependance on Him.
    
    
    In Christ,
    
    Bing
    Another good heart verse (I'm not sure if Jill already mentioned it):
    "Watch over your heart with all diligence, for from it flows the
    springs of life" (Prov 4:23).

    >    We hide his word in our hearts (Ps. 119:11) 
    
    Christ is also called the living Word, and Psalm 138:2 says God exalts
    His Word above His name.  Like the Triunity(tm), synthesizing several
    passages lead you to the presence of Christ in our hearts.
    
    Ephesians 3:17, Acts 2, Ezekiel 36:26, and Jeremiah 31:33.
    
    Mike

    
    > My point is that this is precisely the language used by many, many
    > evangelicals today to describe what one must do to be saved.
    
    I think this is rubbish.  While it might be a phrase used as
    part of a discussion or even a message, it is not a standalone
    statement told to people of what they must do to be saved.  Most
    evangelicals I know will use something akin to the Four Spiritual
    Laws or the Roman Road to explain salvation.  And I have never
    heard it used by a pastor where there wasn't also talk of repentance
    and belief in Christ.  I've been raised in evangelical circles my
    whole life, this is clearly an inaccurate characterization of the
    facts and a group of individuals.  Please stop these broad sweeping
    judgements as they only cause division.  
    
    With sadness,
    Jill

    
    I beg your pardon, Jill.  I have heard it many, many times in sermons 
    and in many personal testimonies as a standalone, "self-evident" gospel
    message, your protestation notwithstanding.
    
    jeff
    
    

    
    If I'm talking to other christians who know the same lingo that
    I do, I may say one thing, but I would use different language
    with a non-christian.  These are different settings.  
    
    I still believe your statement is a major generalization that
    is inaccurate and uncalled for.   I give you pardon.
    
    Jill
    

This topic prompted me to rally along with Jeff here.

It is important to keep in mind that it is in the resurrection of Jesus that
we place our faith and our hope.  

In the book of Acts, the apostles preached the physical resurrection of 
Jesus

	"'God raised him from the dead... David said about him, "...you will
	not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see
	decay..."[Psalm 16]  Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the
	patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this
	Day.  But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on
	oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne.  Seeing
	what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he
	was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay.  God has
	raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact."
	(Acts 2:24-32)

Regarding this gospel, the good news of Jesus, it is written,

	"Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you,
	which you received and on which you have taken your stand.  By this
	gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to
	you.  Otherwise, you have believed in vain.  For what I received I
	passed on to you as of first importance:  that Christ died for our
	sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was
	raised on the third day according to the Scriptures..." (1 Cor 15:1-4)

Regarding other "gospels", it is written,

	"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called 
	you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel --
	which is really no gospel at all.  Evidently some people are throwing
	you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.  But
	even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than
	the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!"
	(Gal 1:6-8)

Salvation is through faith plus nothing.  Because there is really nothing to
add to what has been done. 

	"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we
	do not see."  (Hebrews 11:1, NIV)

	"faith:  1.a. Confident belief; trust.  b. Belief in God; religious
	conviction.  2.  Loyalty; allegiance.  3.  A religion."
	(American Heritage Dictionary)

The "Ask Jesus into your heart" thing is a mere tradition that has been
adopted by contemporary christendom.  As an example,

	"I'm going to ask you if you've never received Jesus Christ, just
	to say a prayer in your heart and mean it.  You could repeat after
	me these words 'Lord Jesus...'"  

This is what I call "Recitational Regeneration."  

The consequence of the "recitational regeneration" error is that people 
go away reassuring themselves that they are saved because they performed the 
ritual.  And we proclaim them saved when they do it, and they listen to us and
believe us. 

Why am I so insistant on points like this?  Because we are meddling with the
gospel.  The focal point of our message as Christians is to proclaim Jesus
Christ and him crucified for our sins.  We must be careful to stick to the
gospel and not add to it our own techniques and rituals.  

It is far better to let a person go away at the end of your gospel presentation
wondering "What must I do?  How do I receive Christ?"  For if he is asking
these questions, then he has not really understood the full meaning of the
gospel, and what he really needs is more counselling, so that he understands
what grace really is. 

When you have convinced a person that there is nothing he can do beyond 
believing God in faith, that "good works" won't do it, that church attendance
won't do it, that water baptism won't do it, that praying a prayer won't do it,
then you can conclude that he has a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.  What he
does with this knowledge is between him and God.  We impart knowledge, but it
is up to him to repent.  We cannot change his mind for him, nor alter what is
in his heart. 

The sinner's prayer methodology is dangerous.  You have been presumptuous in
giving a person the impression that he has received Christ, forming a strong
connection in his mind between his prayer and his salvation.  And he goes off
believing he is saved, when really he might have just gone through the motions.
We have a person who is now "Christianized".  Then other Christian workers who
look to you as an example go off and do the same thing and teach it to others,
and as the tradition gets passed along it becomes more and more a part of the
"gospel" preached.  Meanwhile that subset of the people who said the prayer,
but don't believe, think they believe because they said the prayer.  And they
through their bad fruits are actually a testimony against Christ when they say
they are Christians but do not follow Christ, because they have not the Spirit.
And they have a false sense of security because they think they are converted
on account of what they did. 

Why do we have to add to the gospel?  Do we have to help God along with a 
person's conversion?

Another point worth mentioning:

"Behold I stand at the door and knock..." is a message from Jesus to the 
Church at Laodicea, and should be understood in that context.

    I've used this illustration before, I'll use it again.
    
    Got a headache			Got sin
    Aspirin takes away headache		Jesus takes away sin
    Must ingest aspirin			Must receive Jesus' as Savior
    
    I have to be honest... I get very concerned when I hear statements like
    well Jesus just was always there since I was little.  I wonder if one
    really understands the difference between Jesus' commitment to us
    versus our commitment to Jesus.
    
    I knew since I was 4 years old about Jesus and went to church every
    Sunday with Grandparents until I was 10 years old.  Then I rode the
    church bus and was baptized at 12 believing that Jesus was the son of
    God and Savior.
    
    But I was 14 before I made a commitment to Jesus and received the gift
    of God.  My life didn't change until this time.
    
    It's important very important to be sure that your head knowledge
    becomes heart knowledge.
    
    Nancy
    

�    I have to be honest... I get very concerned when I hear statements like
�    well Jesus just was always there since I was little.  

As a simplistic generalisation, that certainly isn't enough evidence for us 
to be assured of someone's conversion, because it's effectively saying that 
they can't remember any change.

However in the context of an individual, it can be true that a real
awareness of the LORD and His effective saving work is so much a part of
one from childhood, that it is difficult, or perhaps impossible to identify
or recall a specific moment of salvation.

For everyone there are times of refreshing and times of wilderness - it's 
part of our spiritual growth, as we learn to lean on the LORD, to hear Him, 
and to follow Him.  For someone saved *very* young, the actual point of 
salvation could have seemed as natural as one of these steps.  I know it 
came pretty close to that for me.

The evidence lies in the fruit :
	- it's *usually* possible to recognise whether Jesus is enthroned 
	  in someone's heart, even when they aren't date-stamped.

The responsibility is theirs :
	- it's neither for us to put pressure on them, nor to 'decide their 
	  salvation'.  It's for us to follow the LORD's leading *us* (which 
	  may or may not include opening the gospel wit them more).


Like my (earthly) father has said - I know I was born, but I can't remember 
it.  I know I'm a person here and now, so I must have been.
Anyone who says I'm not born because I can't remember it, is talking nonsense.

OK - it's not a total parallel, but it can apply.

Another thing about very young commitments to the LORD is that one is 
developing very much during that time.  Each new area of the personality 
developing needs to be subject to the LORD.  It is easy for the child to 
have a burst of development where they don't realise the LORD's 
involvement, and the later realisation can seem like conversion all over 
again, because the original conversion experience seems to have been almost 
to a different person, because they have 'become' so much more.  

While He has His hand on each one of His own from that first commitment, I
agree that there still is danger in too easily assuming a social
all-embracing God, bypassing individual salvation. 

								Andrew

    Is proclaiming Christ as your Lord and Savior a God pleasing act?
    
    I would argue yes.
    
    Heb 11:6 "And without faith, it is impossible to please God, because
    anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards
    those who earnestly seek Him."
    
    Clearly, one's confession of Christ as Lord, or any God pleasing act is
    possilble only through the faith created in one's heart by the Holy
    Spirit being there.  This is a gift of grace from God.
    
    Eph 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and
    this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so
    thar none can boast."
    
    When folks make the statement 'I let Christ in my heart' or 'I received
    Christ' are claiming credit for an act they did not do.  Rather than be
    wary of folks who claim that Jesus was 'always there', be concerned
    when gospel apologetics are based on earthly metaphor, and not
    scripture.
    
    Eph 1:4-5 "For he chose us in Him before the creation of the world to
    be holy and blameless in His sight. In love He predestined us to be
    adopted as His sons through Jesus Christ in accordance with His
    pleasure and will"
    
    Just because one can point to a day and say they finally realized that
    the Holy Spirit was within them does not mean that the Spirit was not
    there all along judging their conscience with the law, and drawing them
    to the gospel of forgiveness. Never underestimate the power of the Holy
    Spirit.
    
    dp
    

 What, then, is the process, if you will, for one to be saved? 





 Jim

    
    Repent of sins, believe in Christ, and lead holy lives.
    
    jeff

    And once you do  all that, give away all you have and follow Jesus!
    
                         
                                 Patricia

    >When folks make the statement 'I let Christ in my heart' or 'I received
    >Christ' are claiming credit for an act they did not do.  Rather than be
    
    I disagree.  They are saying that they received Christ by faith.  The
    complete context of scripture has to be looked at.  For as many
    scriptures that say they God predestined those who would become
    Christians, there are just as many that talk about receiving and
    placing our faith in Him.  It's a paradox that we won't fully
    understand until we see Him face to face.  God's grace IS a free gift that 
    can't be earned, but MUST be received.  Receiving is not a work - it is 
    FAITH.  Yes, God woos us, but we are not robots.  God has given us a choice
    that we can either accept or reject His grace.  
    
    "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is
    patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come
    to repentance". (2 Peter 3:9)
    
    Personally, I believe that "predestined" is more of a foreknowledge than
    it is a selective process of who He chooses and who He would not
    choose.  Christ died for ALL.
    
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing
    
    

    amen Bing!

>Colossians 2:6  As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk 
>ye in him: 




  How does one "receive" Christ?  How does one "call upon the name of the Lord"
  and be saved, as in Romans 10:13?




 Jim

>    And once you do  all that, give away all you have and follow Jesus!
    
                         
>                                 Patricia
    
    
    This is *not* the gospel nor any part of it.  I suspect you don't
    really believe this or you wouldn't be participating here, being
    homeless and destitute.
    
    jeff

    Jeff,
    
    It may not be the giving of everything to another person, but it is
    recognizing that God owns it all.  The bible does says for us to deny
    ourselves, to take up our cross daily, and to follow Him.  It does say
    that it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.  Maybe
    this is what Patricia was getting at?
    
    Bing

 I believe Patricia is refering to the passage where the rich young ruler
 asked Jesus what he must do to obtain eternal life (can't remember where
 it is off the top of my head).




 Jim

Luke 18:18  And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I 
do to inherit eternal life? 

 19  And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save 
one, that is, God. 

 20  Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do 
not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. 

 21  And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. 

 22  Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou 
one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou 
shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. 

 23  And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich. 

 24  And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall 
they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! 

 25  For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a 
rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 

 26  And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved? 

 27  And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with 
God. 

In his first letter to the church at Corinth, the apostle Paul makes clear
what the gospel of Jesus is:

	"Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you,
	which you received and on which you have taken your stand.  By this
	gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to
	you.  Otherwise, you have believed in vain.  For what I received I
	passed on to you as of first importance:  that Christ died for our
	sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was
	raised on the third day according to the Scriptures..."  (1 Cor 15:1-4)

...and to the churches in Galatia, that it is not anything else:

	"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called
	you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel --
	which is really no gospel at all.  Evidently some people are throwing
	you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.
	But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other
	than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!"
	(Gal 1:6-8)

The Corinthians were subtracting out the resurrection, and the Galations were
adding the Law of Moses.  What has the contemporary christian church done to
add and subtract from the gospel?  It often goes something like this:

	"Christianity is all about a relationship with Jesus.  You can have
	a relationship with Jesus if you would just ask him into your heart."

And the testimonies by Christians often go something like this:

	"I used to go to church and believe in Jesus, but I never realized
	that I could have a personal relationship with God.  One day I asked
	Jesus into my heart.  The very next day, I witnessed to my friend,
	and he prayed to receive Christ, too."

This is the gospel of the "relationship", as opposed to the gospel of the
resurrection.  What is wrong with it?  Besides not being the gospel, it can be
a stumbling block for two reasons.
	
First, the word "relationship" has been understood by today's society to mean
something other than what we intend it to mean, in the same sense that Jesus 
meant it.  In our society, a "relationship" involves a selfish, give-and-take
arrangement in which each person attempts primarily to satisfy his or her own
needs.  In this "relationship", the object of the "relationship" is simply used
by the one seeking the relationship to serve his or her own goals and desires. 
Relationships in our society are primarily feelings-oriented, and secondarily
seen as things meant to benefit the other person.  They are superficial, and
lack commitment.  They don't last.  If a person tries to start a "relationship"
with God under these terms, it won't last, either.

When we talk to people about the gospel, we must take care to speak in terms
that they understand, that is, in a culturally relevant way.  If you say one
thing, and it is taken to mean something else, then you have failed to
communicate altogether. 

Second, the actual fact of our relationship with Jesus is a mature concept.
Our relationship with God through Christ Jesus is indeed a fact, and "Christ in
you, the hope of glory" is truly a mystery unveiled.  However, it may take some
time even for one who is already a Christian to fully appreciate the meaning of
this, as it also takes time to develop and nuture any meaningful relationship. 
In contrast, the simple, elementary facts of the gospel are easily understood
by the unindoctrinated.  Believing that message causes a person to receive the
Holy Spirit (Gal 3:2), and that is the beginning of a relationship with God.

    Why did Jesus die on the cross?  Why was He risen?
    
    God created man to have fellowship with Himself.  I think the reason
    todays church has stressed relationship is because for years all that
    was preached was "get saved, so you can go to heaven".  Christ didn't come
    just so that we could get a ticket into heaven, but so we might have
    life abundant (Jn 10:10).  That abundant life comes from abiding in and 
    knowing Him (John 15, Phil 3:9-10).  
    
    I don't think many people to realize the significance of Christs death
    and resurrection.  They need to know that He died for them -
    personally. 
    
    I agree that the church has preached only part of the message - but
    other parts of the church have preached only another part of the message. 
    No one has exclusive rights to all of God's knowledge.  We grow in our
    understanding as we get to know Christ better - by spending time with
    Him.
    
    I'm not sure what we're really disagreeing about here.  No one is
    saying that you shouldn't preach Christ and Christ crucified and Christ
    risen.  At the same time we should be sharing why Christ was crucified
    and risen.
    
    In Christ,
    
    Bing

    Does not Paul in 1 Corinthian 15 say that flesh and blood will not
    inherited the kingdom of heaven.  That we will be transformed from a
    physical body to a spiritual body.   So for Paul the ressurrection is
    the ressurection of the Spiritual Body.  The new birth promised in a
    spiritual birth.
    
    My theology is a relational theology.  I believe in the Incarnation of
    God's divine love in humankind, first in Jesus as the first fruit, and
    then by adoption in all humanity that abides in christ and christ in
    them.  What abides in them is the incarnation of Divine creative,
    responsive love.  The love that allows us to love God with all our
    heart soul and mind and to love our neighbors as ourself.  Our capacity
    for human love is a direct result of the Divine love which God has
    given us.  "We are able to love, because we were first loved"
    
    In an emotionally intimate relationsip with someone we love we
    experience the power of divine love.  A love that bears all things,
    believes, all things, hopes all things, and endures all things.  A
    relationship of power(persuasive power) is a relationship where we use
    the best powers inside of us to bring out the best powers in the other.
    
    Were we actively seek for the Christ in me to meet the Christ in you!
    
    This is what a true relationship is.  If I extract from the best
    relationship I have, to the most perfect relationship I could imagine,
    then I can only glimpse the potential of a  relationship with God.
    
    My theology is a relational theology.
    
    
                                 Patricia

Re: .-1

See what I mean?

 what Bing said...I'm not sure where we are in disagreement (with -.2 being
 an exception).





 Jim

    
    Garth,
    
    Yes, it is perfectly clear what you mean and a better example could not
    be found, however extreme.
    
    jeff

    -1  and -2,
    
    I guess I emphasize different parts of scripture than you do in
    choosing to focus on what the Bible says about divine love, adoption as
    children of God, and Christ abiding in us.
    
    My filters are different than yours, but their is scriptural support
    for my entire entry.
    
                                  Patricia

>  The fact of the matter
>    is that the term "ask Jesus into your heart" cannot be found in the
>    Bible and it cannot be found to represent, even as a word picture, the
>    gospel of Christ, the Revelation passage notwithstanding.  You will notice 
>    that all quotations provided on the word "heart" are outside of Matthew, 
>    Mark, Luke or John.
    
    
Jeff,
    
    I you hold all passages of the Bible to be equally authoritative, then
    why the special significance of heart not being in Matthew, Mark, Luke, or
    John?
    
    
    By the way, I believe that it is Matthew which has the quote
    
    "If you abide in Christ, then Christ will abide in you".  
    
     Now if Christ does abide in us, where would he abide?   Would he not
    abide in our heart and soul. 
    
                                          
    
    But your concern is justified.
    
    It smacks of New Age liberalism!
 

    >    Repent of sins, believe in Christ, and lead holy lives.
    
    How do you lead Holy lives without Christ in your life?
    
    thanks,
    Mike

    >    Repent of sins, believe in Christ, and lead holy lives.
    
>>    How do you lead Holy lives without Christ in your life?
    
>>    thanks,
>>    Mike
    
    We don't, can't and never will lead a holy life without the Holy
    Spirit.  The Holy Spirit convicts us of our sins, leads us to
    repentence, enables us to believe in Christ, and sanctifies us.
    
    jeff

    RE: .18
    
    Greetings Garth,  :-)
    
    {sigh} (some disappointment)
    
    Thanks for taking the time to enter those verses.  I agree with
    everything you said until you got to your Recitational Regeneration 
    speech. 
    
    >"I'm going to ask you if you've never received Jesus Christ, just > to
    say a prayer in your heart and mean it.  You could repeat after > me
    these words 'Lord Jesus...'"
    
    but Garth those "..." are important because after that contains the
    repentance, the statement of belief that God did raise Christ from the
    dead, the confession that Jesus is Lord!  Not to mention...your leaving
    out the contents of the entire message that lead up to that point.  As
    if it's had no bearing.  How can you present this as a standalone
    statement when there has been an entire sermon preached beforehand?  I
    don't believe that this is a fair assessment.
    
    >The focal point of our message as Christians is to proclaim Jesus
    >Christ and him crucified for our sins.  We must be careful to stick
    >to the gospel and not add to it our own techniques and rituals.
    
    I agree we are to preach Christ and him crucified.  I'm not sure what
    you mean by adding our own techniques and rituals.  So you're saying
    that your church has not changed even one iota from the early church? I
    don't believe techniques and rituals are important, the only thing I
    think is important is the gospel message and the Spirit's work to draw
    that person's heart.  The rest are inconsequential props.  That was 
    my whole contention from the start of this...to think that these few 
    words are going to change the whole message plus the movement of the 
    Spirit is ludicrous!
    
    I agree partly with you on that you do need to be careful in your zeal
    of wanting someone to become a christian, not to rush them into saying
    words that have no meaning for them.  However, since we don't know a 
    person heart, we can't be sure that what he says he believes, that he 
    does.  It's between God and him/her.  A churches work is just begun 
    at the altar with a person who says he wants to be saved. Sometimes, 
    time will reveal if they truly believed what they said or if they 
    were like the seed that fell on shallow soil.  You see there is nothing 
    new under the sun!  This has always been a problem. To believe that
    this is simply a new problem because of evangelical techniques and 
    rituals, is to deceive yourself and cause division in the body.
    
    I truly am trying to bear with you guys in love, but you a truly
    testing my patience.  I think I'll take a break from this today.
    
    Take care and God bless.
    
    Jill
                     

    
     Hi Jill!
            
>    This has always been a problem. To believe that
>    this is simply a new problem because of evangelical techniques and 
>    rituals, is to deceive yourself and cause division in the body.
 
    I think the issue is accuracy of the gospel.  In the Bible where Jesus 
    describes the "types of soil" on which the message falls the assumption 
    is, of course, that the message itself is correct.  The belief
    expressed by some here is that the message itself, "ask Jesus into your
    heart" is not the correct message.
    
>    I truly am trying to bear with you guys in love, but you a truly
>    testing my patience.  I think I'll take a break from this today.
 
    I'm sorry I'm trying your patience.  I appreciate your forebearance
    though.
    
    jeff

    
    Okay, I tried to stay away...
    
    Hi Jeff,
    
    I thoroughly believe that my church and other evangelical churches
    like it give an accurate presentation of the gospel.  I don't 
    understand how you could possibly justify making such a broad
    sweeping statement to the contrary.  
    
    So...I decided that if just a little phrase like the one we've
    been discussing could be blown out of proportion so much, then
    let's look at your statement of how one must be saved.
    
    >    Repent of sins, believe in Christ, and lead holy lives.
    
    Now, isn't leading a holy life a result and not a condition of
    salvation.  If we had to lead a holy life to be saved, none of
    us would be.  That is implying that we need works!  You are
    saved by grace through faith and not of yourself.  Nor did you
    even mention anything about the cross or the resurrection.  Didn't
    you just trivialized the most important message of the bible?
    So aren't you misleading everybody?  You probably heard that at 
    your church!  You're whole denomination probably is preaching the 
    same thing.  Sending all those poor people straight to hell on an 
    express train because they were waiting to be holy enough to be saved!
    
    Jill
    
    P.S.  Now obviously this was said tongue-in-cheek.  But the point 
    is...you knew what you meant and as christians we knew what you 
    meant.  Your heart was not out to misrepresent the gospel and if 
    this wasn't a place where many chrisitians gather for discussion, 
    you probably would have used different words.  Surely if a
    non-christian asked you how to be saved, you wouldn't give a flip
    one line answer.  Why you thought any of us would is beyond me and
    frankly it hurts.  

    Some of our differences may be the way we define heart.  The Bible
    mostly uses the word heart to represent that which is central man - the
    inner man.  Even in a figurative sense, it denotes something that is
    central.  Heart is used to express dimensions of man and God's concern
    and dealings with man:
    
    1. The "inner man," the "hidden person of the heart" (1 Peter 3:4). 
       The central essence of man that God is primarily concerned with.  
       It is this that God looks on, searches, and tries (1 Samuel 6:7,
       Proverbs 10:8, Jeremiah 11:20, 17:10, 20:12).  The heart is the
       center and source of belief and faith (Luke 24:25, Romans 10:10).
    
    2. The heart is the central agency and facility within man whereby he
       imagines, intends, purposes, thinks, and understands (Ezekiel 13:2,
       Psalm 64:6, Matthew 12:34-35, 15:18-19, Luke 24:25, Romans 10:10,
       Jeremiah 12:11, Proverbs 6:18, Ecclesiastes 10:2, Hebrews 4:12,
       Proverbs 19:21, Luke 2:19, Proverbs 20:5, Acts 11:23, 1 Corinthians
       2:9, Revelation 18:7, 1 Kings 3:9, Job 38:36, Ephesians 6:6).
    
    3. The heart shows qualities of a person's character (1 Chronicles
       12:33, Luke 8:15, 1 Kings 4:29, 8:61, 11:4, 2 Chronicles 16:9, 25:2,
       Psalms 101:2, 24:4, Proverbs 22:11, Matthew 5:8, 1 Timothy 1:5, 2
       Timothy 2:22, 1 Peter 2:22, 2 Chronicles 30:12, Jeremiah 32:39, Acts
       2:46, 4:32, Colossians 3:22, Hebrews 10:22, Job 38:36, Hosea 7:1, Job
       9:4).
    
    4. The heart shows a man's attitude as shown in his actions (Ezekiel
       25:15, 2 Samuel 6:16, Acts 28:27, Hosea 10:2, Psalms 119:70, Mark 3:5,
       16:14, Romans 2:5, Proverbs 18:2, Matthew 11:29-30, Judges 5:15-16,
       Ezekiel 11:19, 36:26, Proverbs 17:10, Hosea 4:11, Ezekiel 6:9, Exodus
       35:5, Proverbs 10:8, 11:29 - almost 50 passages in Proverbs alone on
       the heart!).
    
    5. The heart is the center, essence, and inner substance of man which
       needs to be reconciled to God (redeemed).  See also Proverbs 12:20,
       Isaiah 44:20, Jeremiah 17:9, Psalms 101:4-5, 51:10, Jeremiah 24:7,
       Ecclesiastes 8:11, 9:3, Ezekiel 11:19, 18:31, 36:26, Jeremiah 5:23,
       Malachi 4:6, Psalms 58:2).
    
    6. The heart is the core and seat of emotions, the center of emotional
       reaction, feeling, and sensitivity (Deuteronomy 28:28, Psalms 34:18,
       69:20, 147:3, Isaiah 61:1, Ezekiel 27:31, Numbers 32:7-9, 1 Samuel
       17:32, Genesis 45:26, Isaiah 21:4, 35:4, Deuteronomy 28:47, Psalms
       104:15, Proverbs 24:17, 27:11, 1 Samuel 25:31, Psalms 73:21, Proverbs
       12:25, 25:20, 31:6, Matthew 26:37, Job 29:13, Ecclesiastes 2:10, 1
       Samuel 25:36, 1 Kings 21:7, Esther 1:10, Proverbs 15:13,15, 17:22, 1
       Samuel 24:5, Psalms 102:4, Deuteronomy 28:65).
    
    Based on what God's Word says of the heart, asking Him into your heart
    is mandatory.
    
    Mike

Re: .24  (Jim)

> What, then, is the process, if you will, for one to be saved? 

Re: .25  (Jeff)

>    Repent of sins, believe in Christ, and lead holy lives.

Re: .46  (Jill)

>    Now, isn't leading a holy life a result and not a condition of
>    salvation.  If we had to lead a holy life to be saved, none of
>    us would be.  That is implying that we need works!  You are
>    saved by grace through faith and not of yourself.  Nor did you
>    even mention anything about the cross or the resurrection.  Didn't
>    you just trivialized the most important message of the bible?

Sorry Jeff, but you had this one coming to you.  

Re: .47  (Mike)

>    Based on what God's Word says of the heart, asking Him into your heart
>    is mandatory.
    
And what if He refuses?

728.49 - Garth ...
728.49 � Re: .47  (Mike)
728.49 � 
728.49 � >    Based on what God's Word says of the heart, asking Him into 
728.49 � >    your heart is mandatory.
728.49 �     
728.49 � And what if He refuses?

   "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh
    to me I will in no wise cast out."
							John 6:37   


			- Guaranteed -
								Andrew

Re: .50  (Andrew)

>>    Based on what God's Word says of the heart, asking Him into 
>>    your heart is mandatory.
>
>And what if He refuses?
>
>   "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh
>    to me I will in no wise cast out."

"Dear Jesus, the reincarnated soul of Krishna, the spirit-brother of Lucifer,
and begotten son of Father Adam, of whom Mohammed aptly pointed out did not die
on the cross (but it appeared so to his disciples), come into my heart.  I want
to have a personal relationship with you.  Amen." 

Garth!  I thought you knew who the 'me' referred to! 

You were asking the wrong one all the time - he (if there is such a being)
never promised anything that I know of, and certainly hasn't got salvation
on offer.  You have to take the Bible at face value, and not use it in
cut-and-paste mode to fabricate a religion out of your own mind.

							Andrew

Re: .52  (Andrew)

>You were asking the wrong one all the time - he (if there is such a being)
>never promised anything that I know of, and certainly hasn't got salvation
>on offer.  You have to take the Bible at face value, and not use it in
>cut-and-paste mode to fabricate a religion out of your own mind.

Amen.

    Exactly!  You can't contradict God's Word when asking Christ to come
    into your life.  
    
    Mike

Re: .54  (Mike)

>    Exactly!  You can't contradict God's Word when asking Christ to come
>    into your life.  
    
And perhaps the one who brings you the message, "Ask Jesus into your heart," 
loses sight of the message of the gospel and leaves you ask the Jesus of your 
creation to come into your life.

	"Men of Isreael, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man 
	accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which
	God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.  This man
	was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge;
	and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing
	him to the cross.  But God raised him from the dead... David said 
	about him, "...you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you 
	let your Holy One see decay..."[Psalm 16]  Brothers, I can tell
	you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and 
	his tomb is here to this Day.  But he was a prophet and knew that 
	God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his 
	descendants on his throne.  Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the 
	resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, 
	nor did his body see decay.  God has raised this Jesus to life, 
	and we are all witnesses of the fact."  (Acts 2:22-32)

	"Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you,
	which you received and on which you have taken your stand.  By this
	gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to
	you.  Otherwise, you have believed in vain.  For what I received I
	passed on to you as of first importance:  that Christ died for our
	sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was
	raised on the third day according to the Scriptures..." (1 Cor 15:1-4)

 Re: <<< Note 728.50 by ICTHUS::YUILLE >>> (et al)

728.49 - Garth ...
728.49 � Re: .47  (Mike)
728.49 � 
728.49 � >    Based on what God's Word says of the heart, asking Him into 
728.49 � >    your heart is mandatory.
728.49 �     
728.49 � And what if He refuses?

728.50 �  "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that 
       �   cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."
       �						John 6:37   

&rew,

The very verse you cite points out the falacious nature of supposing that one
can "Ask Jesus into your heart." Jesus is not standing outside, like some 
homeless beggar, hoping that each and every non-Believer will dain to allow 
Him in. Quite the opposite, as a matter of fact. It is the non-Believer who
is standing outside - poor, blind, naked, and homeless, on his/her way 
straight to Hell. 

The *Father* determines that some will be saved, and *gives* them to Jesus.
Having so done, all who are *given* to Jesus *will* come to Him. All who are
not, will *not* be drawn to Him, regardless of our (futile) efforts to the
contrary. Hence, my advice to Mark - "Don't try to teach a pig to sing; it
wastes your time, and annoys the pig." Now, the verse also guarantees that
all who are drawn to Jesus, *will* come to him, and He will accept them
unconditionally. But, the verse does *not* teach that *all* are drawn to 
Him (that's Universalism - see Cindy Painter for details...).

Just my US$0.02,

Brian

    I never did get a straight answer when I asked in here whether God
    offers salvation to all people or whether God only offers his salvation
    to some people.
    
    The correlary question is Can any one chosen by God for salvation not
    accept that gift.
    
    This sounds like one major contradiction for people so certain that
    they know the true revelation of God and so certain that their are no
    contradictory statements in the Scriptures!
    
                                 Patricia

 Romans 10:13  "whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved"

 John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that whosever believeth on Him shall
            not perish but have eternal life"




 Salvation is offered to all, but rejected by many.




 Jim

    Having thought about it, I see no conflict between notes .57 and .59
    with respect to the first question in .58.
    
    James

    Patricia, I agree with Jim.  Christ died for all, but most will still
    reject Him.
    
    Re: God not drawing all to Him
    
    This may be true, but you still have the parable of the lost sheep.  The
    Shepherd left the flock to find this lost sheep.  It can also be said
    that nobody comes to the Father except those who the Spirit draws to
    Him.
    
    I still say a word study on heart is in order.  The verses I listed a
    few replies back indicate that it's part of the nature within that
    God changes once we are His.  Also, Hebrews 8:2 indicates that Christ
    is within our hearts as a fulfillment to Ezekiel 36:26 and Jeremiah
    31:33.
    
    Mike

    If Christ died for all, and all are offered salvation, how could an
    omnipotent God not find and save every single lost sheep.

    Patricia, free agency is the answer.  You have to choose to be saved. 
    Not everyone does.  God doesn't want children pre-programmed to love
    and serve Him any more than you would want this in your daughter (I
    think I remember you saying you have a daughter).  You want your
    daughter to choose to love you - it means so much more.
    
    Mike

    btw - you knew it was coming (;-)) but the word pictures for the
    tabernacle/temple and the heart are also significant.  In the triune
    nature of man, the Holy Place is considered to be the heart.  It's also
    interesting to note that the tabernacle/temple was always built from the
    inside out (Holy Place -> outward).  That's also how God works in our
    lives.
    
    Mike

>    If Christ died for all, and all are offered salvation, how could an
>    omnipotent God not find and save every single lost sheep.


  The wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life
  through Jesus Christ our Lord.  The gift of salvation, like any other
  gift must be accepted by the intended recipient.  Not all (human) sheep
  wish to be "found", or feel that they can find their own way.."there is a
  way that seemeth right to a man, but the end thereof is destruction"..
  
  God can find them..he doesn't even have to look for them..His hand reaches
  out to them..but they won't take it.



 Jim

>    If Christ died for all, and all are offered salvation, how could an
>    omnipotent God not find and save every single lost sheep.
    
    This is a fine question, one of the best I've seen.  I'm not sure of
    your purpose for asking or what conclusion you might draw Patricia but
    nevertheless it is a fine question which the "ask Jesus into your
    heart" group cannot answer adequately ;)
    
    jeff

 "Ask Jesus into your heart group"?

>    Repent of sins, believe in Christ, and lead holy lives.


>    Now, isn't leading a holy life a result and not a condition of
>    salvation.  If we had to lead a holy life to be saved, none of
>    us would be.  That is implying that we need works!  You are
>    saved by grace through faith and not of yourself.  Nor did you
>    even mention anything about the cross or the resurrection.  Didn't
>    you just trivialized the most important message of the bible?

> Sorry Jeff, but you had this one coming to you.  
    
    Garth: I sure did!!
    
    Re: Jill:
    
    Sorry that I confused you.  Yes, holiness is the result of being born
    again.  But the "cost" of holiness to the individual must be communicated 
    to the unbeliever along with the the requirement of repentance of sin and
    belief in Christ.  Some in this string may complain that the statement of 
    the gospel in the phrase, "repent of sins, believe in Christ, and lead
    a holy life" is as obtuse as "ask Jesus into your heart" but I think it
    is obvious that repentance, belief and holiness are stated in one and
    only one (belief, obtusely) is implied in the other.
    
    jeff

 do you really think that those in the "Ask Jesus into your heart" crowd
 don't stress repentance and holiness?





 Jim

    I guess it's about time I replied in here since it was my comment
    that started this whole thing.  First of all, my son is 8 years
    old and he came up with the question.  He knew what he meant and
    I knew what he meant.  I assumed that others here in this 
    conference would know what he meant.  ie....How old were you when
    you came to know that you were a sinner, repentented of that
    sin and submitted your life to Christ and began serving God?
    
    
    I would never use the term "ask Jesus into your heart" with someone
    who did not know Christ because they would have no idea what I
    meant.
    
    Several years ago, just after Nathan was born I lived in an
    apartment in Framingham, MA.  One afternoon a lady from downstairs
    came by.  She knocked on the door.  I answered.  She told me about
    a Bible study class that she was having and asked if I wanted to 
    come.  I said no, I had to take care of the baby and my husband
    wouldn't be home for hours.  She asked, " Are you saved?"  I 
    said yes and closed the door.  Of course, I was not saved, but
    when you ask that kind of a question it puts a person on the
    defensive.  I desparately needed friends at the time and could
    have profited greatly by some Bible study...perhaps if I had
    been saved at the Bible study...I would have been blessed to
    miss out on a lot of the worst times in my life (my own fault)
    but, I think that when you approach someone who may not be 
    saved, you speak gently and do not put them on the defensive for
    fear of pushing them away...or getting the door slammed in your
    face.
    
    Just my opinion.
    
    Pam

    Patricia,
    
    What is your exact belief about salvation, and how did you arrive at
    it?
    
    I have a very wise and dear friend who said to me once that I asked the
    hard questions and seemed to need hard answers, but that life is full 
    of mystery, and that she was concerned that I would never be content in
    life until I could accept the mystery. It took me a long time to
    understand what she meant.
    
    Must we have the ultimate answer regarding salvation?  If we believe in
    an omnipotent God, do we trust Him enough to handle the matter of
    salvation?  We know that His ways are not our ways, (thankfully for
    us), do we believe that in God exists perfect judgment, righteousness,
    and holiness and perfect love, mercy and compassion, beyond the
    comprehension of our smaller natures, and do we trust Him to do what is
    - right? Can His good and perfect will be other than - right?
    
    For the record, I believe that my neighbor is every man, woman and
    child on the planet, and especially those who's lives directly touch
    mine, and that I am to love them as myself. I believe that salvation is
    offered to every man, woman and child on the planet, because God's love
    for us is greater than we have yet imagined, but I do not believe that
    all will accept it. There are numerous places in Scripture which tell
    us this. I don't like it. I wish with all my heart (how much more does
    He wish it?) that everyone would be saved, that everyone would know God, 
    but I also know that it *is* possible to harden one's heart against Him. 
    Even during the horrors spoken of in Revelation, many people still 
    refuse Him. And on a personal level, much to my detriment and shame, I 
    know that I've said "No" to God before, so I know it can be done. Every
    moment of everyday we have multiple opportunities to say "Yes, Lord" or
    "No, I can't - or - won't." 
    
    I must simply trust in Him, more than in my own judgment, and know that 
    whatever the answer is regarding salvation, it will be perfect as He 
    is perfect. I don't know how, but I know Him.
    
    Rebecca 
    

    I think its even more important to share that "WE" can't be holy in our
    flesh.  We ARE holy if Christ dwells in us.  Its only as we abide in Christ
    that we can do anything.  If we are abiding in Christ, He will motivate us 
    to behave in a Holy manner (to act like in a way that matches our new
    identity).  In other words, living by the Spirit, rather than the
    flesh.
    
    It's obviously important to share more that just a surface level
    message when we tell someone about becoming a Christian.  At the same
    time, being a Christian is a lifelong process of being perfected (Phil
    1:6).  We never ARRIVE as a Christian.  When we think we have, we're
    setting ourselves up for a fall.  Its a dependant relationship to the
    Father, in which we are always learning and growing.  The Christian life
    is much more than a formula for successful living.  It unreasonable to
    expect that a person becoming a Christian will know everything about
    what a Christian is.  What's important is that they start the journey
    (as SCC says "The Great Adventure").
    
    In Christ,
    
    Bing

    >She asked, " Are you saved?"
    
    To me, this is the ultimate of Christian lingo.  A non-Christian has no
    idea of what being saved is (unless they grew up in church).  In fact I
    went to church as a boy and I still had no idea what it meant. 
    
    I think what is important is that when we talk with non-Christians,
    that we relate to them in words that they understand.
    
    Bing

 We usually begin our salvation discussion with folks we visit by asking
 "what is your church background", and after they talk a bit, we offer a 
 brief testimony of how we came to know Christ, leading up to a question
 that we all have to answer "If you were to die today, are you 100% certain
 you'd go to heaven", and if the answer is "no" or "I don't know", we ask
 them if we can show them from the Bible how they can be sure..I've found that
 this sets them at ease when approached in this manner..



 Jim

> do you really think that those in the "Ask Jesus into your heart" crowd
> don't stress repentance and holiness?

>Jim
    
    Jim,
    
    Please forgive me if I offended you with the "ask Jesus into your heart
    group".  I did not mean offense (notice the smiley).  It was obviously
    a poor choice of a word.
    
    Now, to your question directly.  I absolutely see a direct correlation
    between the "ask Jesus into your heart" gospel with, in your words,
    "don't stress repentance and holiness."   I have been around the
    Christian block, so to speak, and I know what I have seen and heard
    with mine own eyes and ears.
    
    Furthermore, it explains rather perfectly the horrendous contradiction
    in a nation of 100,000,000 (help me out Mike Heiser - you posted the
    results of a recent survey somewhere) people saying they are "born
    again Christians" and the actual fruits one would expect in our
    churches, homes, instutions, businesses, schools and government.
    
    jeff

    Pam,
    
    I think the question is a great question and I think it is wonderful
    that your son came up with the question himself.
    
    I do believe in Christian simplicity and I do believe that it is a
    simple as asking God into our hearts.  To me that means turning our
    heart and mind and soul over to God.  It is then that we can lead holy
    lives.  Only then.  I also believe that God loves everysingle one of us
    and like the shepherd seeks out every single lost sheep.  God is
    powerful enough to reach and redeem every single lost sheep.  God's
    power  is persuasive power and not brute force.  Persuasive power is
    really much more powerful than force.  Humans do have free choice but
    ultimately they are persuaded by the power of God's love.  An
    omnipotent God, could not leave one lost sheep, lost.
    
    The controversy about the statement is really a controversy about the
    Theology of Salvation.  Does God choose all people or does God choose a
    subset of people for salvation.  Does God choose a portion of humankind
    for damnation.
    
    The ask Jesus into you heart group, seems to favor the first answer. 
    God chooses everyone and what we need to do is accept God.  Ask him
    into our hearts as a way of accepting God.
    
    Those who do not believe that God chooses every person, will conclude
    that if someone has not been predestined for salvation by God, then
    that person asking God into their hearts will have no impact
    whatsoever.
    
    I personally believe with the first group that God chooses all
    humankind, and I believe with the second group that those whom God
    chooses ultimately cannot turn down the gift.  It may take a whole
    lifetime, but ultimately they are persuaded.
    
    I believe that their are two dimensions to what is called the Kingdom
    of God.  One dimmension is here and now, and the other is future.  Each
    one of us can have the Kingdom of God, here and now by accepting God
    into our hearts.  The result is a serenity, a peace with oneself, God,
    and others, acceptance of who we are and the free gift of God.  I
    believe that our lives are enhanced from the moment that happens.  I do
    know that some people do in fact die before they ever feel this
    serenity.  I can think of an alcoholic who died from drinking rubbing
    alcohol.  people who have lived  chaotic lives and died miserable
    deaths.  I do believe that God can and does redeem these people after
    their deaths just as he redeems children who die to young to accept the
    gift of God's grace.
    
    I believe in the Goodness and lOve of God for all people.
    
    I am a Universalist.
    
    Our future hope is the eternal Kingdom of God. 

      Re: <<< Note 728.58 by POWDML::FLANAGAN >>>

  Patricia,

  >  I never did get a straight answer when I asked in here whether God
  >  offers salvation to all people or whether God only offers his salvation
  >  to some people.

  I believe that my posting (728.57) addresses this very issue. Of course,
  I am sure that others may have differing perspectives.
    
  >  The correlary question is Can any one chosen by God for salvation not
  >  accept that gift.

  IMHO, a negative answer is indicated, based significantly on Romans 9:14-33,
  where Paul cites numerous Older Covenant verses which make not only this
  point, but it's counterpoint - none of those who are not called can possibly
  receive (much less accept) the gift.
    
  >  This sounds like one major contradiction for people so certain that
  >  they know the true revelation of God and so certain that their are no
  >  contradictory statements in the Scriptures!

  Have I missed something, or is your syllogism disconnected?

  Brian

 It would be wonderful if that was the case, Patricia, that ultimately
 all are redeemed.  But, scripture is clear that is not the case.  From
 Genesis to Revelation, it is clear that there are some who will accept
 God's gift of salvation, and many who will reject it, even, as Rebecca
 pointed out, as the wrath of God is poured out during the Tribulation..


 "Choose this day whom you will serve"  "Today is the day of Salvation",
  "Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved", "Depart from
  me, for I never knew you"...the choice for salvation is ours to make, or
  reject...




Jim

>   "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh
>    to me I will in no wise cast out."
							John 6:37   
    
    Jim,  How do you square the contradiction that "all have a choice to 
    accept Christ or reject Him" with the above Scripture? 
    
    jeff

    Rebecca,
    
    I concur with what you have written.  I trust God will show God's
    infinite love for every woman, man, and child.  I don't need to be
    convinced that.  It is something I know by faith.
    
    There are several places where this is expressed in the bible.  I use
    the Bible as evidence not because my faith is in the bible, but because
    this is an audience that looks to the Bible as the ultimate source of
    Revelation.  I personally trust my personal relationship with God, made
    concrete through prayer, meditation, Study, and worship in a community
    of faith, as the ultimate source of revelation.  
    
    In studying the Bible there are certain consistent themes that appear
    in all sections of the Bible.  I look to those themes as a normative
    filter by which to critique even the Bible itself.  The theme of Love,
    the theme of favoring the downtrodden and oppressed, The theme of God's
    work in History, The theme of God's Grace freely given.  The theme of
    the last becoming first, the theme of doing away with normal
    hierarchies, the theme of service.  The them of God's suffering
    alongside humanity. 
    
    I believe that these normative themes are much more useful and valuable
    than sentences and fragments that are random.
    
    My difficulty is with humans who imply to themselves and to others
    their "knowledge" of who is saved or who is not saved.
    
    My difficulty is with those who insist on telling others how to find
    God or not find God.  How to name God or not name God.
    
    I believe that there is one and only one Divine, who is infinitively
    Good and Loving. The Divine who is infinitively Loving will find God's
    way into each of our hearts.  And each of us, do have the free choice
    to accept or reject.  But God will keep coming back not seven times but
    seventy times seven times seven.
    
    I "hear" people in here rejoicing because so and so appeared in church
    the night before and was "saved"  At the same time I hear other people
    being labelled satanic, damned, etc.  I don't get it.  I don't see
    humility in these actions.  I don't see the honoring of the mystery of
    God.
    
    I guess I see more love, humility and hope in little Nathan's question,
    "When did you invite Jesus into your Heart"  Perhaps each of us need to
    be more like an eight year old child.  Jesus did say that we have to be
    like a little child to enter the kingdom of heaven.
    
                                    Patricia
    
                                        
    
    
     

>>   "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh
>>    to me I will in no wise cast out."
							John 6:37   
    
  >  Jim,  How do you square the contradiction that "all have a choice to 
  >  accept Christ or reject Him" with the above Scripture? 
    
   

    To whom does the "Whosoever" in John 3:16 and Romans 10:13 refer?



  Jim

    
>    My difficulty is with humans who imply to themselves and to others
>    their "knowledge" of who is saved or who is not saved.
 

     The Bible does tell us that we (Christians) shall be known by our fruits.
     

>    My difficulty is with those who insist on telling others how to find
>    God or not find God.  How to name God or not name God.
 

    Your difficulty is with the Truth in the Word of God.

   
>    I believe that there is one and only one Divine, who is infinitively
>    Good and Loving. The Divine who is infinitively Loving will find God's
>    way into each of our hearts.  And each of us, do have the free choice
>    to accept or reject.  But God will keep coming back not seven times but
>    seventy times seven times seven.
 

     Wonderful!  On what do you base that belief?

   
>    I "hear" people in here rejoicing because so and so appeared in church
>    the night before and was "saved"  At the same time I hear other people
>    being labelled satanic, damned, etc.  I don't get it.  I don't see
>    humility in these actions.  I don't see the honoring of the mystery of
>    God.
 

    I don't believe anybody has referred to anothe person as "satanic" or
    "damned"..



   
    Jim    
                                        
    
    
     

>>   "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh
>>    to me I will in no wise cast out."
							John 6:37   
    
  >  Jim,  How do you square the contradiction that "all have a choice to 
  >  accept Christ or reject Him" with the above Scripture? 
    
   

>>    To whom does the "Whosoever" in John 3:16 and Romans 10:13 refer?
    
    Jim,
    
    I asked you first! ;)  Anyway, "whosoever" refers to those that the Father 
    has given to Christ.
    
    Okay, I answered you, now you answer me! ;)
    
    jeff

    Patricia,
    
    I feel that the place where our views diverge centers around the Bible,
    how we view it and the way in which we study it. For me, there was a
    very long period where I focused on the love of God, and many of the 
    themes that you mention. I was very uncomfortable with the wrath of
    God and judgment and all. But there came a day, when I looked at myself
    and at the Bible and had to confront a few questions for my own sake.
    I had to ask myself whether it was honest for me to only focus on
    Jesus' words of love and grace, and avoid those on judgment and wrath.
    Could I honestly take a portion and not take the rest? What did it make 
    of Jesus if I couldn't take in all that he said? Was he God or wasn't
    he? Were all his words true, or only some of them? So very uncomfortably 
    and with trepidation I returned to the Bible, to the words of Jesus to 
    examine them as a whole. The trepidation came from the what if? question 
    in my mind that would mean that if I couldn't reconcile it, how could I 
    accept any of it?  My faith was not in the Bible, I didn't much care for 
    a good deal of what it seemed to have to say. But setting aside the 
    inerrancy question - the Bible was how I learned about Jesus. It's the 
    only record we have of his words and life. The Bible was how I learned 
    about God, who for a long time remained a big loud wrathful and not 
    particularly comprehensible being to me. So I turned to it now fully 
    determined to accept or walk away, because the integrity of my spirit 
    would not allow me to do anything else. So I read and I studied and 
    prayed and found whole new revelations about Jesus, about his life and 
    this life, and about God. I didn't read with a challenge of the truth 
    of the Bible in my mind, but with the intent to decide what did I 
    really believe of this Jesus, this God of whom the Bible spoke?  Could 
    I take the whole package or couldn't I? At this point I gratefully say,
    I could and did and do and will. There's much I don't understand, but 
    I'm glad I confronted that question, and I'm glad it ultimately led me 
    on a journey of deepening understanding. I also have noticed that the
    few personal encounters, visions, whatever you want to call them that
    I've had with God, have come only when I was meditating on Scripture. 
    
    My faith is in God, and my relationship is with God, but as I found, 
    the Bible is revelatory of God and the choice that I ultimately have
    made is to continue to question it and wrestle with it until God grants
    me further understanding. 
    
    Regarding people, my nephew sang a song for me when I was up in N.C.
    recently. The words were something like  "God isn't finished with me
    yet...In seven days He made the moon and the stars, the sun and the earth, 
    and Jupiter and Mars. What a patient and loving God he must be, because
    He still isn't finished with me."  Part of the difficulty of the
    Christian walk is that He isn't finished with any of us yet, and you
    will see unloving actions and lack of humility and all kinds of things
    you really *shouldn't* see, which is why I'm glad His ways are not
    ours, 'cause if they were, not a one of us would stand a chance :-).
    
    Rebecca
                        

    
>    I asked you first! ;)  Anyway, "whosoever" refers to those that the Father 
>    has given to Christ.
    
     
     But doesn't mean "anyone"..that anyone you, me, the folks on who's door
     we knock, who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved?  That anyone
     who believes in Him shall not perish? 


  > Okay, I answered you, now you answer me! ;)
    
   
    No! ;-)  I'll have to do some research.  But it seems its clear to me
    particularly in the Book of Acts, that there was a persuasion involved in
    being saved..some were persuaded, some were not.  



   Jim

    Jim,
    
    My difficulty is not with the truth in the word of God.  My difficulty
    is with your being so certain that you have the truth when I am certain
    that noone has the truth of God.  How many of those 100% certain they
    know what is needed for Salvation are just hedging there bets.
    
    THis note is about two different Gospels being preached, right here
    where you insist you have the truth.
    
    Brian is preaching that God selects some and all that are selected are
    saved.
    
    Jim, you are preaching that God makes God's offer to everyone and some
    are able to   accept the offer and some are able to say no.
    
    The "Ask Jesus into you heart" crowd, are preaching toward the first
    Gospel where they are proclaiming the word to everyone trying to cause
    as many as possible to accept the gift.
    
    A minority Brian being one and I do remember a few others are the
    "predestination" crowd.  I don't know what Gospel they would go out and
    preach given the choice has already been made regarding who is saved
    and who is not saved.
    
    There is ample evidence in scripture to support both of the two
    contradictory Gospels.  Now which one is correct.  Who has the truth.
    
    My version, jim that God's love is for all, and God's persuasive power
    will reach all is in fact closer to your Gospel than Brians is to your
    Gospel.
    
    I like my Unitarian foremothers and forefathers can't even imagine an
    all loving God who would predestine the bulk of humanity to damnation.
    My difference  from you view is just being a little more confident in
    God's persuasive powers.
    
    

    
>    My difficulty is not with the truth in the word of God.  My difficulty
>    is with your being so certain that you have the truth when I am certain
>    that noone has the truth of God.  How many of those 100% certain they
>    know what is needed for Salvation are just hedging there bets.
 

      But I can hold in my hand, the written Word of God that clearly states
      what who and how of salvation and how one may obtain eternal life.
      You could be right, of course, and we'll find out one day that the
      Bible was wrong, everybody goes to heaven and we could have spent
      our lives on earth preaching,teaching and obeying God's Word and didn't
      need to.  You could also be wrong and find one day that you, Patricia
      were deceived, and the words of those who have shared with you here
      and elsewhere will echo for eternity.

      My Bible says "these things I write that you may *know* (not guess, 
      not hope but KNOW) you have eternal life"..what do you have that says
      you may *know* you have eternal life?  Feelings?  A view of God being
      a smiling old fellow that winks at the sin in this world and allows
      everybody into heaven?

   
    >THis note is about two different Gospels being preached, right here
    >where you insist you have the truth.
    
     No, it is not.  nobody is saying that salvation is not through faith
     in Christ.  Nobody is saying that repentance and holy living go hand in
     hand with salvation.



    >Brian is preaching that God selects some and all that are selected are
    >saved.

>    Jim, you are preaching that God makes God's offer to everyone and some
>    are able to   accept the offer and some are able to say no.
 

    These disagreements on doctrine do not dilute the message or the truth
    of the Word of God, or the necessity for faith in Jesus Christ.  I am
    not saying, btw, that some are not able..I'm saying that many "reject"
   the message.

   
    The "Ask Jesus into you heart" crowd, are preaching toward the first
    Gospel where they are proclaiming the word to everyone trying to cause
    as many as possible to accept the gift.
    
    A minority Brian being one and I do remember a few others are the
    "predestination" crowd.  I don't know what Gospel they would go out and
    preach given the choice has already been made regarding who is saved
    and who is not saved.
    
>    There is ample evidence in scripture to support both of the two
>    contradictory Gospels.  Now which one is correct.  Who has the truth.
 
    
     Again, this has been a disagreement amongst Christians for many years
     and likely will continue to be.  I don't have time to go into my view
     of predestination right now.  The truth is, however, that salvation is
     through faith in Jesus Christ who died for your sins and mine, that you
     and I may be reunited with God.

 

   
   > My version, jim that God's love is for all, and God's persuasive power
   > will reach all is in fact closer to your Gospel than Brians is to your
   > Gospel.
    

    Again, I ask, on what do you base that?


  >  I like my Unitarian foremothers and forefathers can't even imagine an
  >  all loving God who would predestine the bulk of humanity to damnation.
  >  My difference  from you view is just being a little more confident in
  >  God's persuasive powers.


     So, shall we cut out all of the references to God's wrath on the humanity
     which He created which turned their backs on Him and continue to live 
     in rebellion and pretend its not going to happen?




 Jim   

     
 
    

    
>    My difficulty is not with the truth in the word of God.  My difficulty
>    is with your being so certain that you have the truth when I am certain
>    that noone has the truth of God.  How many of those 100% certain they
>    know what is needed for Salvation are just hedging there bets.
 
     Patricia,  Jim claims no certainty outside of the Bible.  You claim
     certainty outside of the Bible.  Jim's claim is more credible.
   
>    THis note is about two different Gospels being preached, right here
>    where you insist you have the truth.
 
     It's not polite to jump ahead of the natural progression of a discussion,
     Patricia. ;)  But don't misunderstand.  We have the truth of Jesus Christ
     here.  We all testify to this. And we may, depending on our understanding 
     of Scripture but mostly by way of our personal experience, think we came 
     to this testimony by a certain method. 
  
>    Brian is preaching that God selects some and all that are selected are
>    saved.
 
     Brian is not preaching at all.  Brian responded to a reply with some
     information.  If Brian were preaching he would have provided more
     information and it would have included an emphasis on both God's choice 
     and man's responsibility (which is a bridge to the "whosoever will" 
     folks.)
   
>    Jim, you are preaching that God makes God's offer to everyone and some
>    are able to   accept the offer and some are able to say no.
    
     I don't think this is exactly correct.  Jim (presently) believes that
     God's offer is to everyone and some do accept that offer and some do
     reject the offer but that all are cap-able of choosing.
 
>    The "Ask Jesus into you heart" crowd, are preaching toward the first
>    Gospel where they are proclaiming the word to everyone trying to cause
>    as many as possible to accept the gift.

     The point is the accuracy of the message "ask Jesus into your heart", not
     the audience.
    
>    A minority Brian being one and I do remember a few others are the
>    "predestination" crowd.  I don't know what Gospel they would go out and
>    preach given the choice has already been made regarding who is saved
>    and who is not saved.
 
     Those who accept the Bible as the Word of God accept clear teaching of 
     predestination in the Bible and also accept the clear teaching on what
     the gospel is and our responsibility for preaching it.
    
>    There is ample evidence in scripture to support both of the two
>    contradictory Gospels.  Now which one is correct.  Who has the truth.
  
     There is one Gospel.  It is preached differently but sometimes what
     is preached as the gospel or more precisely what is preached as what
     saves a person is erroneous/incomplete.  The theologies around who
     is saved is different than the theologies of how one is saved.  You
     are confusing the two topics.
   
>    My version, jim that God's love is for all, and God's persuasive power
>    will reach all is in fact closer to your Gospel than Brians is to your
>    Gospel.
 
     Sorry Patricia.  Your view is closer to Jim's but is still so far away
     as to be completely foreign to his.
   
>    I like my Unitarian foremothers and forefathers can't even imagine an
>    all loving God who would predestine the bulk of humanity to damnation.
>    My difference  from you view is just being a little more confident in
>    God's persuasive powers.
 
     Well, that's what happens when you reject the authority of the Bible
     and its clear teachings.  Vain imaginations indeed!

    jeff   
    

    Jim,
    
    What I have is Faith!  Faith in God, not Faith in the Divine origin of
    a book.

    Brian,
    
    The truth is that you and Jim each has a different Gospel with clearly
    different implications for every bit of Theology.
    
    And that is the real issue why you object to the "Ask Jesus into your
    heart slogan"
    
    And you can effectively shut off my truth and reason by calling in your
    ground rules.
    
    Objection sustained
    
    Patricia
    

    Revelation 22:17 states, "And whosoever will, let him take the water of 
    life freely."  1 Peter 1:2 tells us we are, "elect according to the 
    foreknowledge of God, the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit,
    unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ."  Matthew 22:14
    says, "For many are called, but few are chosen (elected)."  God clearly does
    choose, but man must also accept God's invitation to salvation.

    God's grace and mercy can be resisted by us.  Jesus said in Matthew 23:37, 
    "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them 
    who are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children 
    together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye 
    would not."  We are not condemned because we have no opportunity to be 
    saved, but a person is condemned because he makes a choice not to believe 
    (John 3:18).  In John 5:40 we read "And ye will not come to Me, that ye 
    might have life."  Jesus also said in John 6:37, "All that the Father 
    giveth Me shall come to Me; and him that cometh to Me I will in no wise 
    cast out."  John 6:40 states, "And this is the will of Him that sent Me, 
    that everyone who seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have 
    everlasting life."  In John 7:37 Jesus said, "If any man thirst, let him 
    come unto Me, and drink."  In John 11:26 He adds "whosoever liveth and 
    believeth in Me shall never die."

    Jesus clearly acknowledges the fact of human resistance and rejection.  In 
    John 12:46-48 He said, "I am come as a light into the world, that 
    whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness.  And if any man 
    hear My words, and believe not, I judge him not; for I came, not to judge 
    the world but to save the world.  He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not 
    My words, hath One that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same 
    shall judge him in the last day."

    In Stephen's message in Acts 7:51, he concluded by saying, "Ye 
    stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the 
    Holy Ghost; as your fathers did, so do ye."  In Romans 10:21, the apostle 
    Paul quotes Isaiah 65:2 when he speaks of God's words to Israel, "All day 
    long I have stretched forth My hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying 
    people."  In one of the five warning passages of the book of Hebrews, we 
    read in Hebrews 10:26, "For if we sin willfully after we have received the 
    knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins."  
    Verse 29 adds, "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be 
    thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath 
    counted the blood of the covenant, with which he was sanctified, an unholy
    thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"  Clearly, God's 
    grace can either be resisted or received by the exercise of human free will.

    Perseverance under Christ is another matter.  We should also be deeply 
    concerned over the words of Jesus in Matthew 7:21-23:  "Not every one that 
    saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he 
    that doeth the will of my Father, who is in heaven.  Many will say to Me 
    in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name?  And in Thy 
    name have cast out devils?  And in Thy name done many wonderful works?  And
    then will I profess unto them, I never knew you; depart from Me, yet that 
    work iniquity."  Apparently there are many who claim to be believers that 
    in fact are not.

    Jesus said in Luke 9:62, "No man, having put his hand to the plough, and 
    looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."  1 Corinthians 6:9-10 
    insists that "the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God" and 
    warns us not to be deceived.  A list is then given of various kinds of 
    sinful lifestyles with an ending remark that they will not inherit the 
    kingdom of God.  Similar statements and conclusions are given in Galatians 
    5:19-21 and Ephesians 5:3-5.  Galatians 5:4 says "Christ is become of no 
    effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law, ye are fallen 
    from grace."  Colossians 1:22-23 says about Jesus Christ "In the body of 
    his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblamable and 
    unreprovable in His sight, if ye continue in the faith grounded and 
    settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have
    heard, and which was preached to every creature that is under heaven, of 
    which I, Paul, am made a minister."  2 Timothy 2:12 says "if we deny Him, 
    He also will deny us."  Hebrew 3:12 says, "Take heed, brethren, lest there 
    be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living 
    God."  Can true believers ("brethren") depart from the living God?  1 
    Timothy 4:1 says that "in the latter times, some shall depart from the 
    faith."  2 Thessalonians 2:3 speaks of "a falling away" or an apostasy.  
    2 Peter 2:20-21 makes these remarkable statements: "For if, after they 
    have escaped the pollutions of the world through knowledge of the Lord and 
    Savior, Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in it, and overcome, the 
    latter end is worse with them than the beginning.  For it had been better 
    for them not to have known the way of righteousness than, after they have 
    known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."  It is 
    no wonder that Peter says in 1 Peter 1:10, "Wherefore the rather, brethren,
    give diligence to make your calling and election sure; for if ye do these
    things, ye shall never fall."  We thank God for the encouragement of Jude 
    24 -  "Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present 
    you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy."

    Maintaining a Bible centered balance in these difficult issues is of great
    importance.  
    
    Mike

    
>    What I have is Faith!  Faith in God, not Faith in the Divine origin of
>    a book.



     Wonderful!   The difference between us is, one of us a means by which
     to test what is and what is not from God, and one does not.  One of us
     believes that God is revealed in the Scriptures and one of believes He
     is revealed through some other means..


     I admire your persistance, Patricia, and pray you'll persist until you
     find the Truth.




 Jim

    God says His Word is exalted above His very name.  His Word has
    withstood the test of time and its hundreds of fulfilled prophecies 
    are its self-validation.  That alone should be proof enough.  There is
    no other book of faith like it in the world.  
    
    As Mark M. always said, we have to let it filter us and not us filter
    it.
    
    Mike

     Re: <<< Note 728.88 by USAT05::BENSON >>>
    
    Jeff,

    Thanks. I believe that you have summarized succinctly and restated
    accurately. I had and have no intention of disputing nits with Jim
    over details of predestination (nor, I believe, does he with me).

    OTOH,
 
    > Well, that's what happens when you reject the authority of the Bible
    > and its clear teachings.  Vain imaginations indeed!

    should, IMHO, be the final discussion of this subject vis-a-vis UU
    with Patricia, unless and until she is willing to aceed to the founding
    statement of this conference, the inerrancy and inspiration of the Bible.
    Remember the fruitless and tiring, but vain disputations with other
    Universalists? Need we put this fellowship through that porkine opera 
    practice again? I think not. To quote Revivalist Extraordinaire Charles 
    Finney: "No one deserves the opportunity to hear the Gospel twice, until 
    everyone has had the opportunity to hear it once."

    Regards,

    Brian

What a horrible quote!

    "..that if you confess with your mouth 'Jesus is Lord' and believe
    within your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be
    saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified,
    and it is with your mouth that you confessand are saved."
    			-Romans 10:9-10
    
      My suggestion would be not to dwell on the trivial details of whether
    or not "asking Jesus into your heart" is right or not, it is not ourt
    job. Only to proclaim His grace, mercy and the great news of his gift
    of eternal life.
    
      So, Jeff, my advice for you would be to concentrate on your own
    salvation. God's salvation has different connotations for each person
    that accepts Him. For me, God dwells within my very life, my BEING. He
    is all that I am, because it is no longer I that liveth, but Christ
    that lives in me.
      For you, the exact meaning of what God has done for you may mean
    something else.
      As far as whether or not the phrase is appropriate, Jesus said "do
    not worry about what to say, it will be given to you"
    God uses different approaches for his children, it is not written in
    stone what evangelistic approaches should be used.
    
    
    Bubbling_with_the_Spirit_,
    
    Joe
    

| <<< Note 728.97 by DECWET::MCCLAIN >>>


| So, Jeff, my advice for you would be to concentrate on your own salvation. 
| God's salvation has different connotations for each person that accepts Him. 
| For me, God dwells within my very life, my BEING. He is all that I am, because
| it is no longer I that liveth, but Christ that lives in me.

	Joe, that is incredible. Thanks for sharing!!!!!

| For you, the exact meaning of what God has done for you may mean something 
| else.

	So true... so true....



Glen

It's a Salvation...

Snarf-o-rama!

         Re: <<< Note 728.96 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >>>

> What a horrible quote!

Why, John?

If someone has heard a clear presentation of the Gospel, and rejects it, why
should they be entitled to hear it again, if that means delaying the 
opportunity for someone who has not yet heard it to hear it for the first 
time? Remember the parable of the Sower and the Seed? The Lord never said 
that the Sower *ever* went back and recast seed on *any* of the ground.
Some fell of rocky ground, some fell on shallow ground, some fell among
thorns, but some fell on good ground. No matter - the Sower only sowed once.

Regards,

Brian

I was out last Friday, so I missed this round.  I don't know if you're still
reading, Patricia, and I won't impose on you by mail.  I could repeat a lot
that has already been said, but I have just two thoughts that I'll share here:

Back in .58 (and repeatedly since then) you said:

>    I never did get a straight answer when I asked in here whether God
>    offers salvation to all people or whether God only offers his salvation
>    to some people.
>    
>    The correlary question is Can any one chosen by God for salvation not
>    accept that gift.
>    
>    This sounds like one major contradiction for people so certain that
>    they know the true revelation of God and so certain that their are no
>    contradictory statements in the Scriptures!

You've said several times in other notes that you *love* paradox, that you
love the juxtaposition of two truths that appear to be contradictory but in
fact are not.  You've given examples of other areas of theology where you
embrace paradox.  

Yet here, given two apparently contradictory statements, you outright reject
the concept of paradox, and insist that this is a contradiction that must
prove that Scripture contradicts itself.

These two views appear to be in contradiction to each other.  Is this really
a contradiction, or is it a paradox?  :-)  <- That's a real smiley, not a
					      sarcastic one.



In .80, you talk about 'consistent themes' that appear throughout the Bible. 
You then list several 'consistent themes' that you approve of, and
characterize everything else as 'sentences and fragments that are random.'

There is no more consistent theme in the Bible than God's judgement of sin. 
It's everywhere.  I haven't checked, but I'd venture to say that the concept
is included in every single book of the Bible.  Jesus speaks of it over and
over and over.  It's no fragment, it's not random.

To extoll the value of 'consistent themes' in the Bible, identify a number of
'consistent themes' that agree with a predetermined position, and then
dismiss as 'fragments' the enormous, central theme of judgement of sin is - I
hesitate to say this for fear of it being taken as a personal attack, but
there's no other reasonable description - it is intellectually dishonest.

If you want to value the Bible for its consistent themes (as we all do), then
value ALL its consistent themes, *including* the judgement of sin.

If you want to pull what you value and what you have already come to believe
from the Bible, then fine, do so.  But don't try to say that you value the
consistent themes in the Bible while rejecting one of the biggest consistent
themes of all; don't try to say that the Bible supports your view.  It does
not, and it's not arrogance to say so, any more than it is arrogant to assert
that water is wet or that the sky is blue.  If we can't assert with absolute
confidence that the Bible speaks pervasively and consistently of judgement
and non-universal salvation, then we can't reasonably assert anything at all.

Paul

    This string has bothered me all weekend.  What bothers me the most is
    that arguing over whether this phrase is a word picture or not, has
    made others question whether we hold to the same gospel.  That was
    not my intent when I questioned Jeff's comments.  To be honest I just
    thought he was being petty.  So I guess I took a trip there myself.
    <Father, forgive me.>  The fact of the matter is...we do proclaim the
    same gospel, word pictures aside.  I will not allow a word picture
    to be a stumbling block to our unity on the topic of salvation any
    longer.  We had a revival this weekend too and here's what I heard.
    
    	    I am a sinner.
            God loves me.
            God sent Jesus to die on the cross for my sins.
            Jesus rose from the dead.
            I need to repent of my sins. (not just be sorry, but turn from)
            God will forgive me.
            I need to recognize Jesus as my Lord and Savior.
            I need to grow in my relationship with God.
            I need to become more like Christ.
            My life needs to be a witness of Christ to others.
    
    I believe it's safe to say that both sides of this dispute believe the
    above statements to be true and do not want to see division over a
    word picture.  There are things that are of critical importance that
    we should divide over if there is dispute, but a word picture simply
    isn't worth division in the body.
    
    Apologies & Love in Christ,
    Jill
    

Thank you, Jill.  Beautifully put.  Though I haven't been part of the
discussion around the central issue here, I too have been disturbed by the
division over a word picture.

Thanks, and thanks for the willingness to publicly apoligize.

Paul

    .47 is not a word picture.

Tidying up :

	- discussion on whether there is a hell & eternal 
	  condemnation, or universal salvation is moved to :	     NOTE 737

	- discussion on the significance of Gehenna in eternal 
	  condemnation has been moved to :			     NOTE  94


							Andrew
						     co-moderator

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in
thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth
confession is made unto salvation.