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Conference yukon::christian_v7

Title:The CHRISTIAN Notesfile
Notice:Jesus reigns! - Intros: note 4; Praise: note 165
Moderator:ICTHUS::YUILLEON
Created:Tue Feb 16 1993
Last Modified:Fri May 02 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:962
Total number of notes:42902

725.0. "Loving the Sinner but Hating the Sin" by AUSSIE::CAMERON (And there shall come FORTH (Isaiah 11:1)) Wed May 10 1995 03:25

    The topic is the cliche "Loving the Sinner but Hating the Sin".
    The following article discusses this cliche.
    Comments and further discussion welcome.
    
    James
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725.1AUSSIE::CAMERONAnd there shall come FORTH (Isaiah 11:1)Wed May 10 1995 03:26124
          Loving the Sinner but Hating the Sin

          John McClean

          The Briefing, Issue #61, Dec 18 1990, Page 8.
          St Matthias Press, Sydney.

          A lot of the time, we explain our way through the world with
          a set of sayings. They tumble off our lips and seem to make
          sense, and they help us feel like we know what's going on and
          how we should act. But often, when I think I am understanding
          or explaining the world, I am merely reassuring myself by
          using a safe but misleading label. It pays to ponder these
          everyday experiences, and look beyond the cliche.

          Let me give you an example. I was talking with a friend about
          how Christians should treat [deleted]. I suggested, "We
          should be like God, hating the sin but loving the sinner."
          Now stop there. It sounds like a great argument (who could
          argue with Christians modelling themselves on God?), but
          think about it for a minute. Does God 'hate the sin but love
          the sinner'? After some reflection, I decided that he does
          not - and here's why.
          
          It is not the way God judges sin.   Is there any evidence in
          the Bible that God judges sin and not sinners?

          "The wrath of God is being revealed... against all godliness
          and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their
          wickedness... they neither glorified him as God nor gave
          thanks to him... they became fools... therefore God gave them
          over in the sinful desires of their hearts..." (Romans
          1:18-24).
          
          Is God angry at the sin or the sinner? Clearly he is angry
          with both. Indeed, can we sensibly talk about 'sin' except in
          relation to a 'sinner'? Sin is breaking the relationship
          between creature and Creator. It can hardly stand alone as an
          object in itself. (The word 'sin' is used variously in the
          Bible and in places such as Romans 6 it is personified and
          perhaps separate from the sinner - but for the rest of this
          discussion we can continue with the above analysis).

          It is not the way the Bible treats people.      Our thinking,
          influenced by Greek thought, tends to separate people into
          component parts, each of which is treated separately. The
          Bible, however, presents a far more integrated view of
          personality, in which the various "parts" are different ways
          of viewing the same person.
          
          The Bible doesn't split a person from their actions. Your
          actions come from your thinking, attitudes and values; your
          actions are part of you and can't be separated from you.
          Jesus said, "... the things that come out of the mouth come
          from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean'. For out of
          the heart come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft..."
          (Matthew 15:18-19). Or in a most memorable saying: "For out
          of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks" (Matthew
          12:34).

          We can not absolve ourselves of responsibility by separating
          ourselves from our actions. Some contemporary psychology
          attempts to do just this, by locating the causes of behaviour
          in the subconscious. But God will not allow it. Certainly, I
          am motivated by forces I don't fully understand, but my
          actions are still 'part of me'.

          Paul's teaching on the 'sinful nature' makes the same point.
          Why can I not please God by submitting to his law? Is it
          because of some abstract principle which is thrust upon me?
          No! Rather it is the sinful nature - that is,       my sinful
          nature - that is the problem. God redeems me not by stopping
          me doing sinful things, but by giving me a new nature - I
          need to be reborn.
          
          'God hates the sin but loves the sinner' is, I am sure, not
          the best way to describe God's reaction to us. But it is
          popular. Why?

          Christians recognize that God is described as being both
          angry (Romans 1:18; Psalm 2:5, 76:10; Isaiah 13:13;
          Revelation 19:15) and  loving (Psalm 6:4, 25:6; Isaiah 55:3;
          Romans 5:8; 1 John 4:16). We wonder how we can reconcile
          these two apparently contradictory truths and we solve the
          problem by deciding that God's anger and love must be
          directed at two different objects - he hates the sin but
          loves the sinner. The Bible has a far better solution.
          God's anger and love are not mutually exclusive - God can be
          concerned for our welfare and also angry with us. His anger
          is profound and just, not cheap and malicious, and both his
          anger and his love came from his character, his holiness.
          When God reveals his name to Moses, it is this:"Yahweh,
          Yahweh, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger,
          abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to
          thousands and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet He
          does not leave the guilty unpunished; He punishes the children
          and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third
          and fourth generations" (Exodus 34:6-7).

          God's love and anger are perfectly integrated in his
          holiness. They are also integrated in the message of the
          gospel. This points sinful men and women to the greatest
          evidence of God's love for them - Jesus' death on their
          behalf (John 3:16, Romans 5:8-9; 1 John 4:10). The cross is
          the great sign of God's love for rebellious people. But it is
          also the greatest evidence of his hatred of sinful people,
          for God turned his anger on his own son (2 Corinthians 5:21).
          What was happening and [on?] the cross was not a safe,
          simple, legal transaction. It was real and horrible as seen
          in Jesus' terrible cry: "My God, my God why have you forsaken
          me?" (Mark 15:34). To say that 'God loves the sinner but
          hates the sin misses the horror and wonder of the cross.
          
          If we want to be like God, how are we going to treat sinners
          (ourselves included)? Firstly, we will take sin with utmost
          seriousness, for sin denies God and provokes his anger. If
          sin makes God angry, then it should make us angry (that is,
          with righteous anger). Secondly, we should allow people to
          take full responsibility for their actions, and not offer
          excuses for their rebellion (and ours). Thirdly, we will see
          that people need a new nature and not simply a new code of
          behaviour. And will strive to bring that new nature to them
          through God's powerful gospel and prayer.

725.2AUSSIE::CAMERONAnd there shall come FORTH (Isaiah 11:1)Wed May 10 1995 03:2744
          Cliches

          From Mike Geeves, Blaxland

          The Briefing, Issue #63, February 19 1991, Page 7.
          St Matthias Press, Sydney.

          Thank you for The Briefing - it is always a very stimulating,
          challenging, encouraging, and at times, admonishing
          experience to read it.
          
          I was especially delighted at John McClean's article on
          "Cliches" in Issue 61 (Dec 18, 1990). It is about time that
          the well-worn and unbiblical cliche "God hates the sin, but
          loves the sinner" was exposed for what it is - a fabrication
          of human sentimentality and dislike at the thought that God
          will actually hold each one of us accountable for the way   we
          choose to live our lives. It may be of interest to your
          readers, and I hope it is, for them to read such indisputable
          statements of God's revelation as:

          For you are not a God who delights in wickedness... you hate
          all evildoers. You destroy those who speak lies; the Lord
          abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful. (Psalm 5:4-6; see also
          Psalm 11:5).
          
          The gospel of Christ is 'good news' to those sinners who
          embrace it and so are forgiven by God, but it is 'bad news'
          to those who either refuse to embrace it or simply go on
          blissfully ignoring it.

          Perhaps our dilution of God's gospel into simply 'good news'
          has contributed to (or maybe is a symptom of) our eagerness
          to embrace a cliche which so clearly clashes with God's revealed
          will and attitude. God's gospel is 'sobering news', even
          'important news', meant to wake us up to face ourselves as we
          truly are in God's eyes and to face God as He truly is as
          revealed in His Word. We need to take very seriously God's
          attitude to both our sins and to us sinners.
          
          Only then can we appreciate the magnificence and magnitude of
          God's great love and mercy, and so be the more passionate and
          urgent in declaring it to otherwise 'damned souls'.

725.3ICTHUS::YUILLEHe must increase - I must decreaseWed May 10 1995 05:5090
I have always (ie in [my] living memory ;-) supposed that this clich� referred
to the temporal position, where the sinner may yet be separated from his sin,
and escape the wrath of God. 

"For God so loved the world ..." (John 3:16) - 'the world' is often used to
denote the sinfulness of the world, but obviously in this case, that is not
intended, but rather the people yet in their sins, as : 
	"While we were still sinners, Christ died for us" Romans 5:8

This is reinforced by :
  "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, 
   against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against 
   the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."
							Ephesians 6:12

ie - the world is in the grip and delusion of sin, but the enemy we are 
battling against, whom we must hate, is the devil and his forces, the fallen 
angels; the evil spirits.

People who are yet in a sinful state are not 'the enemy', but they may be a
tool of the enemy.  It is very important to distinguish between the two.  If
you perceive someone as 'the enemy', it puts them, for you, outside any
possibility of salvation.  If you perceive them as deceived into being used by
'the wrong side', your interaction with them becomes one of letting them see
the LORD, instead of merely defensive condemnation. 

However, there is a 'point of no return', as found by Esau (Hebrews 12:16-17,
cf Romans 9:13), and Pharaoh (Exodus 7:13,22, 8:15,19,32, 9:7, until it is
taken out of Pharaoh's hands in 9:12, 10:20,27, 11:10).  This, in addition 
to the example in Romans 1. The LORD alone knows when someone has reached 
this point, which He may reveal to us (eg Ezekiel 3:7, and note the different 
responses in Acts 13:8-11 and Acts 8:20-23). The reason that the hatred
is attached to the sinner in the unrepentant case is because they are
identified with the sin, and their eternal condemnation is sealed, as in 
Jude :7..:13... 

However, generally speaking our mandate is to offer the gospel to all, because 
we do not know who the LORD will ultimately save.  Perhaps we would have seen 
king Manasseh as the most unlikely candidate.  We are told that he "led Judah 
and all the people of Jerusalem astray, so that they did more evil than the 
nations that the LORD had destroyed before the Israelites" (2 Chronicles 33:9)
We are even told that it was the intensity of Manasseh's wickedness that 
brought Israel to the judgement of the exile, in spite of Josiah's reforms (2 
Kings 23:26).  Yet after all this, we find that under the discipline of exile,
the repentance of Manasseh himself was accepted by the LORD in 2 Chronicles
33:12-13,19.  I guess that would have thrown your average self-made
evangelist, though hopefully not one who truly heard from the LORD.  In mid
diatribe against this dyed-in-the-wool sinner, the evil-doer king turns in
repentance - can this be accepted?  Can *he* really defect from the enemy
camp?  Reminiscent of "the chief of sinners" in 1 Timothy 1:15, who the
Christians were so (understandably!) wary of accepting, in Acts 9:26 ... 

God's hatred is directed at sin, but sin only exists in the dimension of a
sinner committing the sin.  Were there no sinners - no people - there would be
no sins. 

We are all sinners, whom Jesus loves enough to separate us from the nature
which makes us repulsive.  For those who reckon to love and cling to that
repulsive nature rather than to the LORD Jesus, the only destiny is separation
from the hated God, and the glories of His presence. 

There is always a problem with clich�s, in flippant and inappropriate usage. 
We should always be clear how we are using such a phrase, and what we mean and 
convey by it.  This particular clich� can be looked at from two perspectives.  
The one I have represented above is what I would perceive as a valid meaning
for the phrase.  There are invalid applications too.  .1 is primarily
concerned with one of these. 

The valid use of "God loves the sinner, but hates the sin" is in controlling 
our heart attitudes to those who we would perceive as in personal opposition, 
probably not (yet) under conviction.  If God did not love the sinner, there
would be no salvation.  At all.  If God did not hate sin, there would be no 
need for salvation.  

The danger is to make the false link of assuming that God's love for the
sinner implies a love which includes the sinfulness which is an essential part
of his nature. 

The invalid use of "God loves the sinner, but hates the sin", as addressed in
.1, is in diminishing the significance of sin, whether in one's own life, or
that of another, where it can serve to reduce or even neutralise 
accountability to God, and the valid conviction of the Holy Spirit. 

The clich� is valid only in its strict context.  To use it too generally is to
blur its meaning into something totally different, and it becomes the
political negotiation of today, where words are mutually acceptable only
because they mean something different to each side. 


								Andrew
725.4BIGQ::SILVADiabloWed May 10 1995 07:266

	Andrew, very good note!


Glen
725.5PAULKM::WEISSFor I am determined to know nothing, except...Wed May 10 1995 09:395
Andrew, you're good.

No, don't argue.  :-)

Paul
725.6ANDREW: GOOD NOTE!VNABRW::WILLIAMSWed May 10 1995 12:157
    ANDREW, I AGREE WITH GLEN AND PAUL: GOOD NOTE!
    VERY INSPIRING!
    
    GOD BLESS 
    
    PETER
    
725.7A thought!VNABRW::WILLIAMSWed May 10 1995 12:3113
    In my opinion God loves the "Sinner" not because He/She is a sinner but
    because we are His creation. God created perfect things and beings: His
    perfection is to be loved. We however from within us create evil that
    makes us sinners, it is that evil that God hates (our creation). In my
    opinion He cannot hate His own creation. His hope that we will repent
    and live the way He designed us to be remains until our death because
    then we either inherit His Kingdom or become the property of the evil
    one. Can you imagine His perfect creation becoming the slave of the
    devil. AAAAAAHHH...!
    
    God Bless
    
    Peter
725.8Still thinking this through...CSC32::KINSELLAWed May 10 1995 14:3423
    Thanks James for posting that.  I had only read half of it and was not
    completely comfortable with what it said.  I went off to think about it
    for a while and came back and finished the rest.  I find myself
    agreeing with the author however not completely believing that the
    cliche is wrong.  I don't necessarily know if the cliche was
    intentioned to be an all inclusive message.  It's not wrong per se.  We
    should hate sin.  We should love the sinner.  Perhaps it fails to
    include other things such as being angry about sin and rebuking
    ourselves and others when we sin.  However, I guess I tend to try to
    see then intentions of where the statement came from.  I believe it was
    born to combat a legalistic type of judgement against others; where
    some were perhaps holding themselves in higher regard because they
    didn't do the things that so_and_so did.  But maybe there are those who
    have now stretch this beyond how it intented.  In this day where
    society is not calling sin sin, it is easy to see where some with
    different intentions, could use this cliche as an excuse to dismiss sin
    rather than confront it. But I think we should be confronting those who
    do this, rather than the words that they twist to do this.  Am I making
    any sense?  I tend to verbalize my thoughts rather than thinking them
    through first, so you're being exposed to my thought process.  Scary,
    huh?
      
    Jill