Conference yukon::christian_v7

    We had 1, but I accidentally shot him.

My Pastor in Lowell, MA hunts with a bow.  Central Il is a bit out of the
way.

He's not much of a Bambi killer though.  He's more of a tree sitter and
coffee drinker.  ;-)

    Yeah, it would be quite a haul from here to Lowell.
    
    I haven't hunted a lot with the bow (though I have gotten 2 deer and
    scared about a year off of a coyete's life). It takes a lot of time.
    
    We had 11 archers show up for our meeting tonight. As a chapter of CBA,
    we hope to reach local archers with the gospel as while as minister to
    those within the body of Christ. 
    
    Anyway, I was hoping to get some advice on promotions, safety
    guidelines, etc.
    
    God Bless!!
    
    Neil

    
    
     Which brings up another point......is there a Christian organization
    for those who hunt but use firearms instead of bows ?
    
     Very interested ............
    
     RG

    re. -1,
    
    I don't know.
    
    I will be attending a large hunting convention this weekend. I'll check
    to see if anybody knows of such an organization.
    
    >>>------------>
    
    Neil

    Bambi! 

Elsie! (the cow)  (yum)

 so, how does one hunt a bow?

Same way as hunting unique rabbits.  You neak up in 'em.

    Yea gotta get real close! Soo you bath with unscented soap and shampoo.
    Dress with a full camoflage outfit depending on the terrain. Paint any
    exposed skin with camoflage paint. You then spray a cover scent on your
    boots or a scent pad that you wear. (Popular cover scents are essence
    of skunk, and fox or deer urine.)
    
    Most archery hunters (not all) hunt from tree stands about 15 - 20 feet
    high. The tree stand is placed in a location where deer are likely to
    pass. The hunter climbs into the tree stand and waits for a deer to
    wander by. Sometime calls are used to try to attract deer.
    
    Most deer taken with a bow are shot from 15 - 20 yards.
    
    Actually, I enjoy the target shooting as much, if not more than the
    hunting. 

>                                       You then spray a cover scent on your
>    boots or a scent pad that you wear. (Popular cover scents are essence
>    of skunk, and fox or deer urine.)

	you mean like how I smell now...? (just kidding)
.
.
.
>    Actually, I enjoy the target shooting as much, if not more than the
>    hunting. 

	And a site easier to hit too! The don't move! (well, not as much...)

	h :*]

    re .4
    
    There is a Christian organization for firearms hunters, the Christian
    Deer Hunters Association. 
    		Christian Deer Hunters Association
    	        P.0. Box 432
    		Silver Lake, MN  55381
    
    A Christian organization for men and women hunters and fishermen is
    under consideration. Foinformation, or if you have suggestions,
    contact:
    		T.R. Michels
    		Camouflage Designs
    		Maximum Effort Hunting Systems
    		916 Wescott Sq. # 201
    		Eagan, MN  55123

    Does God love animals?
    
    Does God feel pain when an animal feels pain?
    
    Does God care if Christians wound and inflict pain on animals for
    Sport?
    
                                Patricia

Patricia,

God gave us both power over and stewardship of all his earthly creation.

One would hope that a "Christian Bowhunter" or "Christian Deerhunter" or
any other hunter would only hunt and kill that which he planned to use as
food or that which is attacking and killing his own domestic animals.

/john

    Re .13 Well, how about these questions:
    
        Does God love unborn children?
        
        Does God feel pain when an unborn child feels pain?
    
    Personally I don't hunt (I've watched Bambi too many times 8^)), but
    like the song says, we're living life upside down when "the life of a
    tree [or animal] comes first" before the life of a human being.
    
    Bing
    
    

    An eye for an Eye?  Is that what you are suggesting?
    
    Does God love animals?
    
    Does God feel the pain when an animal is shot with a Bow & Arrow?
    
    Does God care that animals are hunted for sport?
    
                                    Patricia

    >    An eye for an Eye?  Is that what you are suggesting?
    
    Absolutely not.  I care for animals myself and have questioned the
    hunting of peaceful animals for sport.  To which I get replies like
    controlling the population, etc.  (of which I not real sold on).
    
    My point was that I see a lot of animal rights advocates, who are also
    pro-choice.  It just seems like a dichotomy to me that a person can
    care so much about animals and at the same time not care (or at least
    not express concern) about the lives of human babies.  While I love animals
    and I am very concerned about our environment, I believe that human
    life is the most important gift that we are given.
    
    In Christ,
    
    Bing

>    Does God love animals?

  Don't know.  What does the Bible say?

>    Does God feel the pain when an animal is shot with a Bow & Arrow?

  I doubt it.  What does the Bible say?

>    Does God care that animals are hunted for sport?

  For sport?  Maybe.  For food?  Or for sacarfice?  

  The Bible is clear that animals are intended to be eaten and that means
  killing them.  Jewish custom required that animals (for sacrifice or family
  food) be slaughtered in a specific way, which was the least pain inflicted
  considering one is killing the animal.  As for hunting, (or fishing), there
  are many instances in the Bible.

  Jesus most certainly ate lamb and fish.  And I rather think that he enjoyed
  it since the Scriptures record Jesus cooking up some fish on the beach.

  [set tongue-in-cheek on]

  Perhaps we shouldn't hunt them anymore; it is rather barbarous.  We can
  farm animals much better, and slaughter them more efficiently.

  [set tongue-in-cheek off]

  To everything there is a purpose; an appropriate use and an inappropriate
  use.  It is appropriate to eat animals.  It is inappropriate to cause 
  unnecessary suffering.

Mark

    re. -1.
    
    Ditto on everthing.
    
    The first thought that comes to my mind is when Abraham was about to
    sacrifice Isaac. God intervened. He prevented Abraham from sacrificing
    his own son and instructed him to kill and offer as a sacrifice a wild
    ram which had become entangled in a bush. The Old Testament records
    that such sacrifices were a "sweet smelling savor unto the Lord."
    
    I know that Jesus ate both fish and red meat.
    
    I know that God provided the Israelites with detailed instruction as to
    which meat could be eaten and which could not. 
    
    I know that on many occasions thousands of innocent animals were
    slaughtered and offered as a sacrifice unto the LORD.
    
    Far more animals are killed or crippled on our roadways than are taken
    by hunters. I know of no hunter who joys in to thought of taking an
    animals life. In fact most spend hundreds of dollars and numerous hours
    of practice in an attempt to take the animal as quickly as possible.
    
    I need to run. Maybe more later.
    
    In Christ,
    
    Neil

    The first part of this reply is what I know and believe based on the
    Bible, the latter part is some editorializing on the subject.

    The Bible permits the use of animals for food.  This did not come about 
    until the time of Noah, after the flood.  Why the change at that time?
    I don't know but it probably had something do with the changes to the
    ecosystem brought on by the flood, and continuing provisions for the 
    survival of a fallen world.  

    Along with permission to use animals for food was an injunction to 
    continue to respect animals as part of God's creation.  This is found
    in the Noah story in Genesis where it is forbidden to take limbs from 
    still living animals or eat meat "with its lifeblood" still in it.  That 
    means that the animal must be *humanely* killed first.

    In Jewish law additional restrictions have been developed around how an
    animal is permitted to be slaughtered.  It is done by one is trained and
    certified in the procedure, I've forgotten the name for that person.  I
    think its done with a long, thin, sharp blade that can sever the entire 
    neck in one stroke so as to minimize any sensation for the animal.

    I am not sure how God views hunting.  My own speculations are that it would
    would depend on several factors:

    1) Is the hunting for food or sport?  I am sure that God is grieved by
       the wanton waste and blood lust that some, not all, sport hunters have,
       and by the wanton waste and greed of poachers.  Things that come to mind
       are the slaughter of millions of buffalo just for target practice in
       the westward colonization of America, and the poaching being done for
       ivory in Africa.  But if the animal is used for food to feed one's self
       and family, the situation is different.

    2) Are precautions taken to be as swift and merciful as possible?  God 
       originally gave to us a mastership over the earth, but with it comes 
       responsibility and a requirement to continue to respect the Lord's 
       creation.  Cruelty is not part of that picture.

    No animal's death or plight goes unnoticed by God.  In noting how much He
    cares for human beings, God said that even the death of the smallest 
    sparrow, a common and more or less non-descript bird of which there are 
    millions, did not go unnoticed by him.  Yet God himself slew an animal to 
    clothe Adam and Chava (Eve) after the fall when they had made inadequate
    coverings for themselves of leaves.  Furthermore, we know that sacrifice
    was a part of worship from the beginning of Genesis (remember the story of
    Cain and Abel) until the destruction of the second temple.  However, there
    were rules and regulations on how and where that sacrifice was to be done.
    Furthermore, the Bible states that it is the sacrifice of a contrite and
    humble heart which God desires, and not the flesh of bulls and goats.

    Editorial:

    Because we do not all have to grow, harvest, raise and slaughter our own
    food these days - many of us buy it neatly wrapped in the supermarket,
    vegetative food having been previously fertilized, sprayed, coated in wax 
    and meat coming from animals that have been injected with hormones and 
    vitamins, slaughtered and already butchered so that it bears no resemblance
    to the living animal - we've lost the close contact with the earth that 
    keeps our perspective straight, as result we've grown both more squeamish
    and less compassionate.  I do not think hunting, done with respect for 
    the animal, is necessarily more cruel than the way many of the animals
    for consumption are raised and slaughtered today, but I do wonder at the 
    "sport" quality it takes on.

    Leslie

  Thank you, Leslie...



   Jim

Follow on to Leslie's Note:

Genesis 4
  2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but
    Cain was a tiller of the ground.
  3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of
    the ground an offering unto the Lord.
  4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat
    thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

While it does not say that animals were "eaten" before Noah's time, 
I would come up short to say that they were not.  Why would Abel raise
sheep?  Because they are fluffy and cute?  Clearly here he sacrifices
some of his sheep to the LORD.  Does Abel raise sheep ONLY for sacrafice?
Perhaps.  But unlikely.

No, I think that animals were considered as food from the beginning.
Also consider why God commands that Noah brings 7 pairs of clean animals
and 2 pairs of unclean animals in Genesis 7.
 
  2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his
    female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
  3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed
    alive upon the face of all the earth.

Certainly, keeping seed alive was important for all the animals.
(There is some chetongueek speculation that Noah made the mistake
of housing the unicorns next to the lions.)  While it may be speculation
to think that some of these clean animals were used for food, it is
also speculation that animals were not used for food at this time.

Lastly, Leslie (couldn't resist it), the term "sport" is unfortunate, 
I think, because it assumes hunting merely for the fun of it without
regard to the animal.  While hunters enjoy their solitude or comaraderie,
the "sport" is in the chances of finding game and winning it for their
table (and freezer), not in the pleasure of killing something.  Compared
to the sterilized meat buying process you described aptly, there is no
sport to buying meat (except against someone for the last package of
hamburger).  Hunting is hunting (a better term that stands alone)
rather than hunting is a sport.  But one does have to stalk prey - but
we've been doing that for thousands of years.

Mark

Thanks for .20, Leslie - most comprehensive!

Agreed, in particular, that the spirit in which hunting is carried out is
most significant.  To kill for necessary nourishment is part of the
accepted mode of living for mankind.  It is also part of the fall; a part
of what we have come to require.

However, to use hunting to express a blood lust or desire to kill for the
sake of killing is to foster evil in the heart.  These are God's creatures 
we are given responsibility for, and any rejection of life per se is a 
reaction against their Creator.  The use of the term 'sport' in this 
connection alao moves perception from survival necessities to an enjoyment 
for its own sake.

	.......................................................

Thanks for raising this, Patricia (.13).  I believe that we should be 
strongly aware of this distinction, and able to appreciate both our food, 
and the Giver, to truly give thanks when we eat, according to Deuteronomy 
8:10 "When you have eaten and are satisfied, praise the LORD your God for 
the good land He has given you..."

	.......................................................

The significance of sacrifices was not that the life of an animal was taken
lightly, but to underline the terrible significance of sin; that it should
need such serious treatment.  Pointing, of course, to the death of God, as
Jesus' blood was shed. 

	.......................................................

Appropos when animals were first eaten - Genesis 1:29-30 is very explicit 
in identifying green plants as the legitimate food for man and animals.  
Following the flood, in Genesis 9:3, reference is again made to this in 
extending man's diet to include animals.  The NIV expresses verse 3 :
  "Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything"
At the same time, animals are given a natural fear of mankind (Genesis
9:2), as a first level defence against this new predator. 
The function of Abel's flock of sheep would be both sacrifice and clothing 
from the fleeces.  We have no mandate to presume further.  
Note that 'clean' and 'unclean' animals were presumably early identified as 
to their suitability for sacrifice, rather than as diet.  On leaving the
ark, Noah sacrificed one of each of the clean animals (Genesis 8:20).  We
can see that the extra pairs were to provide for sacrifice, as well as
being a stock for the then future requirement for meat. 

I believe that we have good evidence to indicate that meat eating was 
established by God after the flood, to accomodate some change in man's 
circumstances.  But it's not a doctrinal issue - others are entitled to 
hold other opinions too! ;-)

					God bless
							Andrew

>circumstances.  But it's not a doctrinal issue - others are entitled to 
>hold other opinions too! ;-)


;-) ;-)

  I've been flat out with support issues ever since writing my initial note
  and just got back in here now to read the responses.  However, I don't
  think I have anything further to add as Andrew Yuille very nicely addressed
  the issues that were raised.

  Based on the fact that God explicitly gave only permission to eat vegetative
  matter prior to the flood, and then explicitly extends that to animals 
  after the flood, I would also have to say that animals were not used for
  food prior to the flood, although they were used for sacrifice and for 
  their wool, and possibly for their milk.

  Leslie

>  food prior to the flood, although they were used for sacrifice and for 
>  their wool, and possibly for their milk.

Implied, not explicit.

    Does God love animals?
    
    Does God love unborn children?
    
    The answers to both of these may be found in your Bible.  The answers
    are pretty unpopular in today's society, judging from the evening
    news...
    
    dp