Conference yukon::christian_v7

Was there more to that thought?

:-)

I'm sure there is, but I thought I'd put this note in, just to be a pain.

I *AM* a big brother to two younger sisters, and it just comes naturally.

:-) :-) :-) :-)

Paul

    Local pastor had his assistant Youth Pastor be brought up on sexual
    abuse charges with males.  
    
    Should there be church discipline?
    Should Pastors be held to a higher standard than members?
    

    .1
    
    Sheesh, give a girl a chance!!!

>    Should there be church discipline?

If restorations is desired, yes.  Otherwise,you may not have a legal
recourse.

>    Should Pastors be held to a higher standard than members?
    
Yes.  Yes.  Yes.  They already are in the Bible.

    I agree with Mark.  Being a pastor is a heavy responsibility, which you
    will be accountable to God for all the sheep in your flock.  God
    doesn't take it lightly and neither should we.
    
    Mike

    References???

    I should think that sexual abuse would be a major concern whether
    it was done by a pastor or someone else.  Is that what you meant?  
    Certainly we need to guard against trumped-up charges, and make
    fair judgements in these cases, but I should think that a youth
    pastor who was involved in sexual abuse towards boys should be 
    removed from the office of youth pastor, and brought to justice 
    through the legal system.

    Leslie

    
    The church should discipline the pastor.  God has placed the government
    in the position of applying justice in civil matters, of which sexual
    abuse is an example. 
    
    jeff

    I'd start with Acts 20:28 and its cross-references (i.e., 1 Peter 5:2).

    Hi,
    
    	just asking...
    
    "What about places that aren't 'officially' churches". For Example:
    (but not confined to...) this forum?
    
    	No, I am *not* making any accusations, and any finger-pointing
    leaves 3 others pointing straight back at me ;')
    
    	But what of 'home-fellowship' groups, or 'work place' meetings, or
    any of a squillion other 'non-official' 'para-church' organisations.
    
    	h :*]

Hi Nancy,

Didn't this come up in 691?

I thought it was covered in 691.6, from 1 Timothy 5:20.  I'll reword it for 
this context below :

An elder is a person in a place of public responsibility and accountability.
If he falls, he should step down from office until it is dealt with, rather
than put himself and the congregation under the added strain and guilt.  In
particular, rather than involve the whole fellowship in guilt.  1 Timothy
5:20 says of elders "Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the
others may take warning."  Not just a 'harsh' judgement, but a recognition
that public office carries moral responsibility not only on an individual
basis, but for the corporate fellowship. 

1 Corinthians 6:1-6 says that we should not take each other to law, as
Christians.  However, I understand this as applying to inter-personal
situations and differences.  Where someone in the fellowship (and 
especially, one in leadership) steps so significantly outside the common law 
of the land, he is still subject to that law, and it is no longer a matter
to be totally contained within church discipline.  Otherwise a failing
church could effectively become a cover-up for gross sin, rather than a 
place for growth in holiness.

Also bearing in mind that the reponsibility of these leaders is not solely
contained within the fellowship community, but also extends, for instance,
to children of non-Christian families, who should be able to trust that
their children are safe, and those in charge of them accountable at least
to an authority they (the non-Christian parent) can recognise and accept.  
This is the least we owe them, as our standards should be more careful than 
the world's, not less.

Mike, good enough references for the normal or ideal church situation, but
in the fall of a leader we're dealing with people who have already stepped
significantly out of line in these very areas, so are liable to be 
personally blinded as to their right course of action.

The church needs to be pure.  Not just perceived as pure, but actually to 
be pure.  This implies full accountability to the LORD, and transparent to 
the world.  Not easy in today's world.


								Andrew

Accountability:  to whom much is given, much is required.

Removal from office is a must, I think.  Restoration is possible but
only after much time, counselling, and a demonstrated attitude of 
humility.

Mm

    Re: Note 700.2 by JULIET::MORALES_NA
    
�    Should there be church discipline?
�    Should Pastors be held to a higher standard than members?
    
    Yes, and yes.
    
    I see Andrew posted the 1 Timothy reference, which supports these
    answers. We must remember that the Church is Christ's - not ours. He
    has given us guidelines to keep it pure (Matthew 18). We also have
    examples of this being done in the early church (1 Cor. 5) with the
    follow-up (1 Cor. 6) that some sins are in a different category than
    others. We must be careful in balancing the love for others with the
    responsibility of keeping the Church pure.
    
    	BD�

    As usual, I agree with Mark (.4 & .12)  :-)
    
    This jogged my memory of something....anyone familiar with the
    situation the singer Michael English found himself in last year?
    
    I believe I saw on a commercial that he was going to be on the Oprah
    Winfrey show.  Can anyone confirm this?
    
    Karen

    
>    This jogged my memory of something....anyone familiar with the
>    situation the singer Michael English found himself in last year?
 

   Yes.



   
   > I believe I saw on a commercial that he was going to be on the Oprah
   > Winfrey show.  Can anyone confirm this?
    
   
    I can't confirm it, but it wouldn't surprise me.  I saw him on some 
    TNN program a while back.




 Jim

    Well spill the beans Jimbo!

 Michael English (who won a number of awards from the Gospel Music Association)
 confessed to an affair with a married woman, who became pregnant (subsequently
 miscarried) as a result.  The GMA removed his awards and he left gospel 
 music for more mainstream persuits.  The man has a wonderful voice.




Ji

    The GMA didn't remove his awards, he gave them back.  However, Word 
    records did drop him like a hot potato.  The married woman involved was 
    part of the trio known as First Call, but she was immediately replaced. 
    English is also married.
    
    Of course, if Nancy read the CCM conference she would know this.

    -1
    
    Nancy doesn't have time for any more conferences consider yourself
    having had a tongue stuck out at you!!!!

    Karen,
    
    Michael English was on Oprah last week.  The show was on shame
    and shaming people into repentance.  The beginning guests were
    Michael English (had an affair), a man who did not pay child
    support and a woman who lived off and on welfare for the last
    13 years.  The difference that I saw between the three is that
    Michael English felt a healthy shame, meaning that he was 
    ashamed of what he did and confessed his sin.  The others
    were being shamed by others yet did not feel that shame 
    themselves, they simply made excuses.
    
    Oprah seemed to try to talk Michael out of feeling shame and 
    thought he was being too hard on himself (my take on what she
    said) and told him that "everyone in the music business does
    it."
    
    Then they had some psychologists come on and they pretty much
    ignored the Michael English story and concentrated on the other
    two guests.
    
    For a transcript of this show call Burelle's Transcripts
    1-800-.........  8*)
    
    Pam

RE:       <<< Note 700.20 by CSC32::P_SO "Get those shoes off your head!" >>>

       
   > Oprah seemed to try to talk Michael out of feeling shame and 
   > thought he was being too hard on himself (my take on what she
   > said) and told him that "everyone in the music business does
   > it."
    

    Now there's a message that Satan wants the world to hear.  I wonder
 how many young people were watching that.  Lets make the Christian who 
 truly feels shame for their sin  look like some sort of "wierdo"..Hey,
 everybody's doing it!  Why should you feel guilty?  




  Jim
     

    Perhaps, just perhaps, the injunction to not be too hard on himself has
    more to do with acknowledging one's transgressions, asking forgiveness
    for them, accepting foregiveness for them, and moving on with  renewed
    resolve and strength to live a godly life.
    
    There are many who get stuck in a cycle of self-flagellation and never
    make it to internalising that they _are_ forgiven.
    
    I can't count the times I've said, "Yeah, you really did mess up big.
    But don't be so hard on yourself. If God has forgiven you, it's about
    time you did too!"
    
    Perhaps the sin never dies, but the culpability does when we ask and
    receive remission of our sin. Jesus did not say "Go and sin no further,
    but wear a big sign around your neck telling people what you did."
    
    Denial is a bad thing, to be sure. But so is wallowing in shame as if
    the sin, rather than the salvation, is the most important thing in
    one's spiritual life.
    
      Annie

    Wow.  Makes me realize that I've done that myself.  I'm learning slowly
    to accept God's forgiveness, and mine too.  
    
    dlh