Conference yukon::christian_v7

>the nature, the purpose and the role of the church.

I'll begin.  (And Jeff, I hope you will participate.)

The church is the body of Christ, made up of disciples of Christ.
It has no boundary except life in Christ and is not contained in 
any structure or human organization.

The role of the church is to do His will, expressed in several ways.
Some say it has five functions: worship, evangelism, education, service,
and fellowship.  Each of these serve to glorify God but have different
emphases.  Worship is directed to God.  Evangelism and service are
directed outside and education and fellowship are directed inside.
All of these should be present for a whole and function church organization.

Evangelism is simply proclaiming the Good News (gospel) of Jesus Christ
that He has the power to save people from their own destruction.  
"Spreading the Word" is a phrase we all know but we express it very 
differently, from bussing in the 70s to "seeker sensitive cell groups" in
the 90s.

A church that is inwardly focused will reap only marginal gains for the
kingdom of God and that by God grace in spite of an organization.  However,
when an organization works with God instead of against Him (by ingrown
traditions that shut people out, intentionally or unintentionally), kingdom
ground can be gained in large "showers of blessing" and not "mercy drops".

The nature of the church is to reach people where they are.  Jesus went
through Samaria talking to a woman who was on her sixth relationship.
His methods were "unorthodox" but he reached people without compromising 
the message or principles.  As followers of Christ, can we do less?

Mark

Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son
    of the living God.
 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will
    build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

(a) Thou art the Christ
(b) Jesus will build HIS church

The first century church FORM is nothing special.  What is ESSENTIAL
about it is that Jesus is the Christ of the church.  If we use the
model of the first century as anything more than a model of relationships
(and nor FORM) then we may be in danger of elevating the form above
the essence.

True worshippers:

John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye
    shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of
    the Jews.
 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship
    the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship
    him.

God's dwelling place:
 
  (Paraphrase) "I don't dwell in your temple."  (He meets us there.)

Jesus and the way it ought to be done:

  o picked corn on the sabbath (Mt 12)
  o healed on the sabbath (various)
  o healed blind people in different ways (ever wonder why they were different
        forms?)
  o he kept the essence and taught us the place of priority tradition had.
  
What is the complementary thought to "seeker-sensitive"?  
"Cloistered Christians?"

MM

    
    In simple terms  ;^)...I believe that the primary purpose of the church
    at large is the same as it's always been...world evangelism.  Winning
    souls to Christ.  God desires that none should perish.  Also, just as
    Jesus and the apostles trained those that followed Christ, we are to do
    the same.  So I see the secondary role as discipleship.  I believe the
    outcome of discipleship is service, so that would be the third purpose.
    This should feed back into both the first and second purposes.  I
    believe there is a balance of purpose needed in the church.  A local
    body and indeed the church at large is incomplete without all of these
    aspects. Take one away and christianity becomes ineffective in meeting
    our Lord's calling.
    
    I believe that all God's people have an individual commitment to
    worship their God and King.  I believe this should be a part of our
    daily walk with Christ and is culminated in corporate worship each
    week. I don't believe that a christian can walk into their meeting site
    on Sunday morning expecting to worship the living God when they haven't
    acknowledged Him all week.
    
    I believe that fellowship is the natural outpouring of christian love
    and helps us to more effectively fulfill our commission as God's
    people. A danger here is that it can be so enjoyable that we can become
    overly focused on inreach forgetting our primary purpose of evangelism.
    
    Jill

    Just as individual believers are gifted in different areas the the
    whole body may be blessed I believe that the focus of different
    fellowships can differ such that the universal church is built up. 
    There are certain standards (Jill's emphasis on evangelism, discipleship 
    and servanthood are excellent) which cross all boundaries but the priority
    placed on each may be different from one congregation to another. 
    Ephesians 4 says the the function of the apostle, prophet, evangelist,
    pastor and teacher (or pastor/teacher if you prefer) is to perfect the
    saints so that the saints may be able to minister so that the body will
    be edified.  The emphasis of that perfecting may look more like a
    hospital or it may look like a college or it may look like boot camp. 
    A wounded soldier needs a hospital not boot camp.  A new believer may
    need healing and education.  The emphasis placed by the individual
    fellowship (the three above are not comprehensive but representational)
    indicates God's vision for that fellowship.  Each fellowship must have
    a vision in order to survive.  Habakkuk 2:2 says, "Write the vision and
    make it plain upon tables that he may run that readeth it."  The least
    successful churches are those that try to do everything for everybody
    right from the beginning and they wind up doing none of them well.  I
    believe Jill articulated God's vision for the Church very well but the
    church may perform many different functions in support of that mission.
    
    Kent
    

Excellent replies.  At the risk of singling out one sentence worthy of
provoking thought for our churches:

    The least
    successful churches are those that try to do everything for everybody
    right from the beginning and they wind up doing none of them well.

As we begin to realize this, we will become more effective church
congregations and also have to rely upon the other guy to fill a need
instead of us.  I call this the "sending the customer to Gimbles" strategy.
In the movie _Miracle on 34th Street_, Santa Claus sends customers to
competitive stores for items that Macy's does not have in stock.  At 
first, the management is outraged, but then they realize the good will
it generates and that it is good for everyone all around.

While I would like my church to be all things to all people, there
are constraints such as size, resources, and vision emphasis that 
hinder it from being all things to all people all of the time.

Thanks for the notes folks.  More, more, more!

Mark

    
    I agree Kent and Mark.  For instance, a large church in my town offers
    classes/support groups for grief and divorce recovery.  This is
    a ministry they are equipped to do and do well.  My church is not
    equipped to do this and so we refer people to them.  Another instance 
    is a food closet ministry.  We know of a church that has been called 
    to that ministry and we support them financially as well as with 
    food drives.  Rather than starting from scratch since we only get a 
    few request...we support the work where it is being done.
    
    We the church at large need to use our resources wisely regardless of
    what denomination they are a part of.  Not that we can refer people
    blindly...we need to know what's waiting for them at the other end.
    
    Jill

I'll move Nancy's thread over here since it discusses a bit about the role 
of the [local] church.

About church involvement.  We've discussed this before but I want to recap.

             When God is first, He will set our priorities.

One cannot therefore say "God, family, church" with any degree of immutable
finality.  Jesus said he came to bring a sword and will divide families.
Now, let me be quick to add that family is an EXTREMELY IMPORTANT entity
under our responsibility.

To be sure, there are people who are over-extended in churches where they
should be dealing with their family issues.  Just as certain, there are
people who, in the "name" of family, shirk responsibility that the Lord
may have called them to do.  It's not a cut and dried issue of "God, 
family, church."  It is a cut and dried issue of "God first, always."

So the question then becomes "How do I balance what God calls me to be and
do in regards to family and church involvement?"

In the functioning church, as well as in the world, many hands make light 
work.  A typical congregation sees 20% of the people doing 80% of the work.
A functioning congregation (using my definition of functional) will see
40-50% of the congregation in active ministry.  With that percentage, 
people need not be over-extended so the family need not suffer from 
church involvement.

But many of us have to deal with the typical church.  Yes, we do.  Jill
mentioned not having some program function if there is no one to do it.
It is because we have people who cannot let something go undone, even
if these people are not called or suited to the task, that what should
go undone is staffed by these people.  They over-extend, stress their
families, and get burned out.  I've sat on Christian Life boards and
suggested looking at some programs to see if we can do without them.
I'm looked at as if I have five heads.  You see, all ministry is good ministry
to them and they can't cut anything out.  But you must see that trying
to do everything without called and dedicated staff means doing nothing
well and most things shabbily.

So the problem is not a matter of "God, family, church" but of how well the
individual listens to the Lord.  Listening carefully, you might hear this
situation:

Leader:  We have an urgent need; no one will staff it.

You:  That's important!  I wish someone would staff it.

Leader:  Will you staff it?  You're our only hope.

You:  I'm flat out doing what I know I ought to be doing.  but this is 
      important and no one else will do it if I don't.

God:  I called you to do something else.  If you take on this other task
      the one I called you to do may suffer.

You:  But this is important, God.  Surely You know that.

God:  I called you to do something else.  Let it go.

You:  But didn't you hear how important this was?

God:  I'll take care of that.

You:  [To leader] Oh, I'll do it!  But you better find someone else soon.

Leader: I will [thinking to self] but I doubt it.  I have another slot
      to fill and this one is checked off with you.

God:  Hello, you?  Did you hear me?

You:  I know, God.  But you'll help me.  After all this is important!
      You HAVE to help me because this is important and You're God and
      after all I'M DOING THIS FOR YOU!

----

Sound familiar?  When we put God first, always, we can be involved in the
life of the church AND meet the needs and obligations of our families.
And when something doesn't get done, if it isn't your calling, then it
isn't your responsibility.  Just make sure that when the leader comes
around to you that God isn't telling you that this *is* your calling
and you don't beg out of it because you have some important things to do
(like "family time" translated as "I'm prioritizing my time and I say
family time occurs in conflict with Your ministry schedule").

Mark

    
    I concur with Mark wholeheartedly.  "When God is first, He will set our
    priorities" does sum it up.
    
    jeff

    "When God is first, He will set our priorities" is a sound bite imo.
    
    While it sounds good and rings of nothing but truth, there are many
    variables to this in married life.
    
    1.  How do you treat leadership as the head of the home?
    	Totalitarian, Joint?
    
    2.  How do you deal with conflict?
    
    3.  What if, statements can be employed here by the gazillions.
    
    I agree that if God is first... but how many people really put God
    first?  I think in reality we are duped to believe we are putting God
    first, when we are equalizing God with things that aren't really him.
    
    Church = God
    Home = Self
    Family = Self
    
    First off does church really represent God?
    
    

>    1.  How do you treat leadership as the head of the home?
>    	Totalitarian, Joint?
    
    Authoritatively.  (Not authritarian.)

>    2.  How do you deal with conflict?
    
    We communicate.

>    3.  What if, statements can be employed here by the gazillions.
>    
>        I agree that if God is first... but how many people really put God
>    first?  

  This explains why you consider my phrase a sound bite.  (And I was sorry
  to see you say it.)  Indeed, how many people ACTUALLY REALLY put God
  first?  If you do, then this is no sound bite because you know the
  truth of it NO MATTER HOW MANY GAZILLION PERMUTATIONS you can imagine.

>    I think in reality we are duped to believe we are putting God
>    first, when we are equalizing God with things that aren't really him.
>    
>    Church = God
>    Home = Self
>    Family = Self
 
  These "realities" need to be examined and shown to be in error.   And
  because they are erroneous to begin with, you cannot use them as "realities"
  but only misperceptions of reality.

  Who is duped?  Why are they duped?

  You want to look at specific cases and make a judgment that because
  Joe Schmoe is at church when his wife asks him to stay home, that Joe is
  in the wrong.  You can't make this judgment call; neither can I.

  However, I can make a "sound bite" proclaiming the truth.  

>    While it sounds good and rings of nothing but truth, there are many
>    variables to this in married life.
    
  Consider how many variables there are to the greatest commandment!
  When you love God with everything, you may do it in a gazillion different
  ways!  

>    First off does church really represent God?

  Some do and some don't in what they do.  Your ministry represents God
  as if (sound bite) "you were the only Bible people could read."
  You minister as part of a church organization, as part of a body,
  as part of a team.  When individual ministry breaks down, so does
  the functioning organism.  

If a person cannot balance family and ministry then a person's priorites
are in need of adjustment.  It may mean that ministry to the family
is a priority.  That's up to God to decide, or do we really want to 
put God first including the direction of our lives?

Mark

702.49   Karen Mossey

>    Yes, I agree that the correct order is 1. God, 2. Family, 3. Church. 
>    However, in my experience, many people confuse their personal,
>    day-to-day walk with God with their church work or church attendence. 
>    Because of this, family life suffers.  It is through this (hurtful) 
>    experience of confusion or misunderstanding of roles/priorities that 
>    I have come to understand and support the correct order.

What I see is that people haven't got their priorities straight
and are over-extended in the church, so they tinker with fixing their
priorities by becoming under-extended in the church to obstensively
put in more family time.  What they find is that instead of family
issues becoming resolved, many let their love grow cold (because they
are not doing as God directed) and the families are not well served
at all.  In fact, when this happens, families go off and do different 
things and church gradually gets pushed out of the picture altogether.

The role of the church is to glorify God, minister to the saints, and
meets the needs of the poor and needy (and seeking the lost).  The role
of the people within the church is to seek God's direction as to how
He would have them be used.  If you're told to go home and minister to
your family, then do so.  If you're told to do something else, will
you allow God to set your "correct order?"

Mark

>    Authoritatively.  (Not authritarian.)
    
    Can you expound on this?

>  This explains why you consider my phrase a sound bite.  (And I was sorry
>  to see you say it.)  Indeed, how many people ACTUALLY REALLY put God
>  first?  If you do, then this is no sound bite because you know the
>  truth of it NO MATTER HOW MANY GAZILLION PERMUTATIONS you can imagine.
    
    I agree that the statement is true... but in 1995 [and maybe even 1AD],
    there needs to be a definition of what *is* actually putting God first.
    
>  These "realities" need to be examined and shown to be in error.   And
>  because they are erroneous to begin with, you cannot use them as "realities"
    
    Amen! We agree!
    
>  but only misperceptions of reality.
    
    Semantics.. but I agree here also.

>  Who is duped?  Why are they duped?
    
    Because the church is needy.  And the church pleads with the people to
    serve.  And as Jill most accurately described in 702... its 10% of the
    people doing 90% of the work.
    
    This is where my thought process seems to jumble.. let me try to
    unjumble it here.
    
    1.  Families are being neglected due to 10% of the people doing 90% of
    the work in our local churches.
    
    A. Results
    	1. Misperception of priorities.
    		
    		a. Confusing service to God = Church activities.
    		b. Hearts in the right direction...but the church
    		   has continued to drain these people without 
    		   truly dealing with the overall congregation's
    		   condition of enemia.
    
    	2. Misperception of responsibilities.
    
    		a. People who don't serve.  Because they believe that
    		   its the Pastor and his staff's responsibility.
    	
    		b. They feel inadequate.
    
>  You want to look at specific cases and make a judgment that because
>  Joe Schmoe is at church when his wife asks him to stay home, that Joe is
>  in the wrong.  You can't make this judgment call; neither can I.
    
    Wrong, I don't want to do that.  But what I am saying is the CHRISTIAN
    family is becoming a dinosaur.  The rate of divorce, adultery and abuse
    is at an unreasonable high amongst Christians.  Where is our
    difference, our seperatedness from the world?  Why should the world
    want Christ when our own families can't stay together?
    
>If a person cannot balance family and ministry then a person's priorites
>are in need of adjustment.  It may mean that ministry to the family
>is a priority.  That's up to God to decide, or do we really want to 
>put God first including the direction of our lives?
    
    Now this what I wanted to see. :-) :-)  I couldn't agree more.  
    
Nancy

    re: .11 - Mark
    
    >  If you're told to do something else, will you allow God to set your
    >  "correct order?"
    
    Well, I would hope so, but since I'm not in this position I can't
    really say what my response would be.  I'm sure to a great extent it
    would depend on what was being asked of me to either give up or take
    on.  Isn't this how it works with most of us?  It's easy to serve when
    it fits in with our likes, desires, etc., but when He asks that of us
    which will s-t-r-e-t-c-h us, we usually have resistance.  That's not to
    say we don't come around, it just might take more "convincing" from
    Him. :-)
    
    My statement on "correct order" is obviously not a commandment, but
    rather a guideline for us, as christians, to order our lives.  The key 
    is to have balance and to constantly review how our responsibilities/
    ministries effect our families - and the rest of our lives really.  
    (I think I said this in one of my notes in 702.*)  Life is change.  
    We are constantly growing (hopefully) - spiritually, physically, 
    emotionally.  We make decisions on where to work, what that work will be, 
    get married, have children, relocate.  I'm sure none of us thinks we
    will be an usher in church for the rest of our days and that will be the 
    only role we will be asked to fufill.  Life happens in seasons.  What is 
    good and appropriate during this time in your (anybody's) life may not be
    appropriate 6 months or 5 years from now.
    
    I hope my remark wasn't interpreted as "I must meet my family's every
    need and want and THEN I'll see what I can do for the church."  NO! NO! 
    I think I've explained that both Steve and I are involved in many
    things.  Actually, I've been thinking we've been involved in TOO much -
    hmmmm, we'll have to talk about that...
    
    Karen
    Again, my point was that it seems people always seem too swing too far
    to the right or the left, they miss the middle (balance) ground.  It
    shouldn't be an Either/Or proposition.   

>    1.  Families are being neglected due to 10% of the people doing 90% of
>    the work in our local churches.
>    
>    A. Results
>    	1. Misperception of priorities.
>    		
>    		a. Confusing service to God = Church activities.

   Only when service is inappropriately applied.  Church activities
   CAN be service to God.  Don't you agree?

>    		b. Hearts in the right direction...but the church
>    		   has continued to drain these people without 
>    		   truly dealing with the overall congregation's
>    		   condition of enemia.

   Much of this may be traced to the personality that is best characterized
   "if I don't do it, no one else will, so I must."  And because the need
   is real, the church organization drains these people as "willing"
   ministers.  And in a real sense, they set themselves up.  These people
   need to (a) leanr to say yes ONLY to what they should say yes to, and
   (b) learn to say no ONLY towhat they should say no to.

   On the flip side, we have the personality that is best characterized by
   "someone else will do it (especially if I make myself scarce)."  These
   people SHOULD be involved in ministry in the church but because their
   priorities are skewed, they hinder the progress of the functional church.

   The first kind also hinder the progress by tiresomely supporting things
   that they shouldn't and thereby neglecting their families in the process.

   So, priorities ARE the answer to fixing these problems.  And pointing
   a finger and asking "what about him?" does nothing to fix the problem.
   Jesus had a specific answer for "what about him?"  He said, "You must
   follow Me."  And following Him means saying yes when he asks you to do
   something, and no when he has not asked you.  Prioritizing.

>    	2. Misperception of responsibilities.
>    
>    		a. People who don't serve.  Because they believe that
>    		   its the Pastor and his staff's responsibility.
  
   See above.

>    	
>    		b. They feel inadequate.
    
   Ah!  This one is curable (in varying degrees of feeling of inadequacy).
   If you have wlling people but feeling of inadequacy, this is one of 
   the responsibilities of leader to train people.  For example, I had
   this very issue with someone who felt inadequate to work with a children's
   class (she had no kids at the time).  I asked her to ONLY sit and watch
   the teacher do it.  Then asked her to help out.  Then she said that she
   loved it!  (She could have easily said it wasn't for her, and that would
   have been okay too.)  The point is that feelings of inadequacy can
   be dealt with.  People who don't serve because they won't are a different
   story (and for the most part you do your job without regard to whether
   or not they are doing theirs.  "Follow Me" and "we are just unprofitable
   servants.")

>    Wrong, I don't want to do that.  But what I am saying is the CHRISTIAN
>    family is becoming a dinosaur.  The rate of divorce, adultery and abuse
>    is at an unreasonable high amongst Christians.  Where is our
>    difference, our seperatedness from the world?  Why should the world
>    want Christ when our own families can't stay together?
 
We agree on this, but making a blanket statement that "God, family, church"
is the answer is a sound bite (to me).  Tinkering with actions (like
cutting back on ministry) is nothing; renewing one's mind and changing 
the attitude of the heart is everything.

Loves,

Mark