| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
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| 684.1 | | ICTHUS::YUILLE | Thou God seest me | Tue Feb 28 1995 05:59 | 27 |
|
The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Doubt centres on self; not the
'can He save me?' of the enquirer with the heart of dawning hope, so much
as 'Why would He save *ME*!?' We need to keep our eyes on Him. Doubt is
the sin that hinders the working of faith in the *believer*. 'Doubting'
Thomas' demand for the proof of physical contact with His wounds didn't
actually need to touch the nail prints ... the Word from the LORD dispelled
all his uncertainty, just as coming face to face with Him will ultimately,
for each of His own, blow away the shadows of what was never really a part
of the real us. - I'm back to 1 John 3:2 "When we see Him we shall be like
Him because we shall see Him face to face." I can never get far from the
glorious destiny in that verse .. I hope!
The unbeliever needn't have doubts - The 'unbelieving' Thomas could say :
'Even if I touched the nailprints, I would not believe...'
There is hope for the unbeliever with doubts, because his doubts are
attacking the false basis on which he is standing.
The richness of the faith distilled from the black emptiness 'where God
isn't' comes out so gloriously from Job ... "I know that my Redeemer
liveth", and "Though he slay me, yet I will trust in Him" - which is
exactly the example of the LORD Jesus on the cross, when, in accepting
death in obedience to the Father, He could say "Into Your hands I commit my
spirit"...
Andrew
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| 684.2 | | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Wed Mar 01 1995 09:50 | 41 |
| I sent your response to my dad, Andrew, since it was his notes. Here's his
reply.
---------
>Thomas' demand for the proof of physical contact with His wounds >didn't
>actually need to touch the nail prints ... the Word from the LORD >dispelled
>all his uncertainty, just as coming face to face with Him will >ultimately,
f>or each of His own, blow away the shadows of what was never >really a part
>of the real us. - I'm back to 1 John 3:2 "When we see Him we shall >be like
>Him because we shall see Him face to face." I can never get far f>rom the
>glorious destiny in that verse .. I hope!
>The unbeliever needn't have doubts - The 'unbelieving' Thomas could >say :
'Even if I touched the nailprints, I would not believe...'
>There is hope for the unbeliever with doubts, because his doubts are
attacking the false basis on which he is standing.
>The richness of the faith distilled from the black emptiness 'where .>God
>isn't' comes out so gloriously from Job ... "I know that my >Redeemer
.>liveth", and "Though he slay me, yet I will trust in Him" - which is
>exactly the example of the LORD Jesus on the cross, when, in >accepting
>death in obedience to the Father, He could say "Into Your hands I >commit my
>spirit"...
> Andrew
I don't think I'm on the same page with this thought ... doubt is not
something that is willful-- the will is involved in both faith and unbelief "I
cannot believe" could be an honest statement ("Lord I believe, help thou mine
unbelief") and if so it is doubt. "I will not believe is not doubt, it is
unbelief. Pride and unbelief are the root sins behind all other sins ... and
in a sense are one and the same.
I recommend a book "The Myth of Certainty" by Daniel Taylor, Jarrell (Word)
1986. We Christians can speak of certitude-- absolutely certain for
ourselves about major facts of salvation. There are vast areas of truth to
be explored throughout eternity, I'm sure.
(RFM)
-----------------------------
Clash of terminology and not theology? -MM
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| 684.3 | | ICTHUS::YUILLE | Thou God seest me | Wed Mar 01 1995 12:39 | 87 |
| There are different meanings to the word 'doubt'. I don't have my
reference books here at work, so don't know offhand whether the Greek
distinguishes. Certainly there are different significances in the
contexts.
A browse through the occurrences of 'doubt' shows that those which affect
spiritual issues are in direct conflict with faith, and that doubt is
something to positively resist (eg the commands not to doubt, in Luke 12:29
and Acts 10:20, for instance). Opening the mind to doubt, on a matter
established by the LORD, is the sin of faithlessness. We would rarely
represent it that strongly, because usually the person who doubts needs
encouragement rather than chastisement (though see Matthew 14:31).
However, I suspect that something of the misunderstanding here is one of
terminology, and goes back to the Nazarene perception of living a perfect
life in the body, which, Mark, we resolved some time back as lying in the
scope of life embraced by the doctrine (as you suggested in your footnote).
� I recommend a book "The Myth of Certainty" by Daniel Taylor, Jarrell (Word)
� 1986.
Only certain high profile American books are readily available over here.
� We Christians can speak of certitude-- absolutely certain for
� ourselves about major facts of salvation.
Many go through times of severe doubt on this very issue, even though the
Word emphasises the confidence we have in Him. Lack of assurance does not
decrease the fact of salvation. Immersion in the Word, [especially with
certain pointers] is usually the antidote to this deception of the devil.
� There are vast areas of truth to be explored throughout eternity, I'm sure.
An interesting conjecture ... ;-) Purely subjectively, I get a different
impression from 1 Corinthians 13:13 :
"...then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known..."
as well as the new order of things indicated in Revelation 22...
I see this as living in a reality which has progressed beyond exploration
and learning, into using. Something which we cannot begin to appreciate
where sin is still an enemy. But again, that's my subjective perception of
eternal bliss!
Andrew
Relevant References to Doubt :
==============================
Matthew 14:31
"And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him,
and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?"
Matthew 21:21
"Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye
have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the
fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed,
and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done."
Matthew 28:17
"And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted."
Mark 11:23
"For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this
mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not
doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith
shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith."
Luke 12:29
"And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither
be ye of doubtful mind." [ do not worry about it - NIV ]
Acts 10:20
"Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing:
for I have sent them."
Acts 11:12
"And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover
these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:"
Romans 14:23
"And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith:
for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."
1 Timothy 2:8
"I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy
hands, without wrath and doubting."
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| 684.4 | | USAT05::BENSON | Eternal Weltanschauung | Wed Mar 01 1995 14:48 | 30 |
|
According to the Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter XVIII,
the Reformed view of the Bible's teaching of the assurance of grace and
salvation, doubt about salvation is possible not necessarily implying
unbelief. I enter a snippet here since certainly any discussion of
doubt among true Christians would naturally include lack of assurance
of salvation, I would think.
Article I and II define assurance and its basis.
III. This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of
faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many
difficulties before he be a partaker of it: yet, being enabled by the
Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may,
without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of ordinary means,
attain thereunto....
IV. True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers(e)
ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in
preserving of it, by falling into some special sin which woundeth the
conscience and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement
temptation, by God's withdrawing the light of his countenance, and
suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no
light: yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and
life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethern, that sincerity of
heart, and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the
Spirit, this assurance may, in due time, be revived; and by which, in
the meantime they are supported from utter despair.
jeff
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| 684.5 | | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Wed Mar 01 1995 15:32 | 56 |
| Mark (and Andrew it seems)
I do not share Mark's joy of theological debate-- for several reasons-- and
yet it is not totally without merit. It makes one sharpen definitions and
conecepts, I suppose. By "doubt" in the positive I do not in any wise
condone or practice rebellion against any revelation of God. I do not doubt
either the veracity or goodness of God. What I may doubt is my own ability
to understand or grasp the significance of truth in various settings. i.e.,
I do not know what will become of the billions of people who lived and died
and never once hear the story of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Because Jesus
said he is the ONLY way to heaven I believe if they have any hope it will be
through what he has done. Because God is fair and good I have to leave that
to Him. But I will not state out of pure logic that those people will be
eternally lost because I am not sure that the truth of the word says that.
To quote a few lines from The Myth of Certainty:
"We are an age, both in the church and at large, which does not perceive the
value of brokenness. The aggressive assertion carries the day, the
answerman, the pontificator-- even if one is pontificating about no one
having the right to pontificate.
"Consider the realtionship.. of the legalist to God's moral law. When the
Pharisee, or his modern Christian counterpart turns the moral law into a
legally enforced code for external conduct, the law of god *in* *that*
*context* loses the force of truth. It may look like God's law, it may sound
like God's law, but because of the spirit in which it is manifested, it is no
longer God's law.
Also: What Nazarene doctrine that says we live perfect lives in the body?
There is absolutely no shred of doctrine anywhere in our theologies, nor in
John Wesley, nor in the Bible that claims any kind of perfection, except
that Wesley called the experience of "entire sanftiofication" being made
perfect in love: i.e., "lovingt the Lord with heart, sould mind and strength,
and the neighbor as one's self."
We *have* preached being able to live without sin-- but that was using
Wesley's definition of (culpable) sin: "A wilful transgression of a known law
of God." We don't preach that so much any mopre because it is
misunderstood; "hamartia" in the Greek means a falling short, or missing the
mark-- and every Christian is imperfect in word, thought, and deed, and thus
(to quote Wesley) "the most saintly among us needs the grace of God daily."
Forget that "perfectionist" business-- that is a straw man. Give that, we
*don't* have to "cross wills " with God-- we are enabled to live a life that
is (1) deliberately surrendered to God's will for time and eternity (in
response to Romans 12:1,2) and that depends on a fullness of the Holy Spirit
(Ephesians 5:18 0 "be BEING filled" 2 Thessalonians 5:23, Luke 11:13, et.al.
Call it any name you want-- only Christians must deliberately
surrender/consecrate-- God won't do that for us-- and God must
cleanse/empower/sanctify(set apart for His use)-- because we CAN'T do that
for ourselves ...
That's enoguh for now--
------
Well, Dad's first line tells me that he's out of the discussion.
Too bad (for me).
Mark
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