Conference yukon::christian_v7

Hoo, boy, Fung.  You've pretty much pulled the lid off all the big ones here.
No one is going to criticize you for asking these questions, they are ones
that we all struggle with.  And we sometimes come around to these same
questions again and again.  Something happens in our life and an answer that
once seemed adequate doesn't seem to cut it any more, and we wind up coming
back and asking the question again, seeking a more complete answer.  Each of
your questions have complex answers.  You may find that you don't get as much
response here as you would wish.  People may be intimidated by the amount of
time it would take to really answer just one of your questions.

I'll take a stab at most of your questions, but I won't be able (at least at
a first pass) to really answer them.  At this point, what I might say would
only really be a pointer towards the real answer.  Since I'll have to keep it
short, they might seem like pat answers, but that's only because I don't have
time to really develop them.

Suffering, evil, and injustice:

Suffering, evil and injustice are a tremendous problem both for a belief in
God, and for a belief that there is no God.  As you point out, if there is a
real God who is wholly good and just and all-powerful, then He must be for
some reason allowing all this bad stuff to happen.  And that is indeed very
hard to reconcile.  

But it's even harder to reconcile all that is evil in the world with the
belief that there is no God.  Because if there is no God, and therefore, no
such thing as objective 'good,' then there is also no such thing as objective
'evil.'  Think of the most horrible evil or injustice you can ( I don't need
to burden this note with an example).  With no God, the most you can say
about that evil is "I and some of my friends think that is bad."  If someone
says they LIKE to hurt people, the most you can say is "I disagree."

If instead, you believe that even if there were no defenseless jews nor nazis
to slaughter them that it is knit into the very fabric of the universe that
such an act is wrong, then you have to believe that there is a God that
established what is right and what is wrong.

The best explanation of why He allows evil is that he has given us the
freedom to choose to love Him and follow Him.  And many of us choose not to.
It helps me often to think in terms of having children, because I believe
that God chose the way that we procreate to help us understand our
relationship to Him.  At times I do things that deliberatedly cause my
children discomfort of one sort or another as a means of teaching them.  And
at other times, I allow them to make choices that I know, from my greater
understanding, are not the best choices for them.  But I know that is the
only way for them to learn.  And sometimes when I do this, my kids think that
I am being tremendously unjust to them.  But that's only because they can't
see a very complete perspective.  And the difference between their
perspective and mine is nothing compared to the difference between our
perspective and God's.

Original sin.

One way to look at it is that original sin is not so much a statement that
guilt is imputed to us by Adam, but a statement that who we are is determined
by Adam.  We are born separate from God.  Our nature is to be distant from
God, we must learn to come into His presence.  The consequence of Adam's
separating himself from God is that each of us is born separate from God. 
And we need Jesus help to come into God's presence, because we can't even do
that ourselves.

That said, I'm personally coming to understand that the spirtual realm is a
bit more legalistic than I would have set it up if I were God.  :-)  I don't
fully understand why Christ's death was necessary to pay the price we owed, I
don't fully understand why, as you said, God can't just forgive us.  But I
know that Christ's death did something beyond words for me.  And I see that
there is an aspect to the spritual realm that requires such a sacrifice.

Free will.

Christians go around and around and around on this one.  In Protestant
theology, there are two major schools of thought, named for two people who
argued about this in the 1500's.  Calvinism is a very complete
predeterministic view, holding that God even does the choosing in our hearts
of Him.  Arminianism holds that we must make the choice.  There are still
strong adherents of both views.   There's all sorts of other explanations. 
One is that God is not in time the way we are, so that though we do in fact
have free choice, He knows that choice in advance.  

The best I have heard is from the pastor of our church.  He simply said.  "I
know that it was my choice to respond to the call of God and enter the
pastorate.  Yet at the same time I know that this plan for my life was in
place before I was even born.  I don't know how the two can be true
simultaneously, but they are."

One last thought.  Be aware now that you will never accumulate enough factual
evidence to convince you 100% without a doubt that God exists.  But there
will come a point where the evidence that you've collected surpasses 50%, and
very much favors that belief.  At some point, you will have to make the
decision to trust in God and believe and act as if He existed, before you are
100% convinced.  And He has promised that when you do that, He will meet you.
Perhaps not immediately, but He WILL meet you.

I wish you joy in your quest, and pray for the day when you meet him face to
face.

Paul

    
    Welcome to this conference, Fung Siong.  As my brother Paul has stated
    so  well, your questions are profound.  But we Christians have God's
    Word available to us (The Bible) and many of the questions are answered
    but not without some serious study of the Scriptures.
    
    At any rate, be assured that we will attempt to answer your questions
    in time.  
    
    Do you have a Bible?
    
    jeff

Hello Fung,

  Without choice, there can be no love.

  This is the essential nugget of truth that explains most of the questions
you have raised.  I want to be careful not to give you any jargon; words
that mean much to me but very little to you.

  Imagine that every color in the world was only green.  The same shade of
green.   What would you see?  You would not see anything because there is
no contrast and therefore no depth perception.  How could you even call
it "green" if you never knew what other colors were?

  God is Love.  And because God is Love, He gives us a choice to love Him
back or to reject His love.  We can do whatever we want with our free will.
Does He know what we'll do?  Yes.  But we do not know what we will do.
And He will not prevent us from making a choice of rejection because to
do so would take away our free will, and when you take away our free will,
we cannot choose to love Him.  Therefore, for the sake of those who choose
to love God, God also knows that there will be people who choose to reject God.

  In rejecting God, we find out what original sin is.  The human being is
self-centered.  This is what is passed down from Adam to us.  We are 
self-centered and our desires drive our actions.  Examining what Love is:
it is other-centered.  Original sin is not a sin that we commit but it is
the propensity to choose self over God, every time.  (All have sinned
and come short of the glory of God.)  We believe that children are not
held accountable for their sin even though they possess the fallen trait
of Adam to please self ahead of God and others.  The reason we believe
this is because God is Love and choice is important to Him.  Children
do not always make choices based on knowledge.  With knowledge comes
responsibility to the knowledge.  Since children cannot understand that
they are doing wrong, they are not held accountable for it.  However, 
we must take care with this doctrine because only God and the individual
know when the individual is resposible and therefore accountable for their
actions.

  Pain and injustice are the consequences of people who choose to reject
God.  Selfishness (self-centereness) leads to consequences that hurt others.
If I hoarde things, someone else cannot have them.  If I steal something,
I take it from someone else.  Pain and injustice are inflicted against
"innocent" people because we are all part of the same world: those who
reject God and those who accept God.  A proverb says that the rain falls
on both the just and the unjust.  It means that the consequences of
selfishness affect other people, many time far beyond what we can even 
imagine.  As a child, you can never understand how not eating your beans
at the supper table contributed to the hunger of someone in Africa.
As an adult, we are often little different, not seeing how everything
we do affects everyone within our closed system to one extent or another.

  As for animals, I have heard it this way: whatever is important to you after
you get to heaven, it will be there.  I don't know whether there will or will
not be animals in heaven.  I do not think that animals here go to an after
life.  Choice here has a lot to do with it, too.  Choice to accept or reject
God's love.  Since all men choose self over God, there needs to be a
mechanism in place for mankind to choose God over self.  That mechanism is
a faith in God that is brought about by Him placing His Spirit in us by
our choice.  When we choose God, we choose His moral code and act on our
choice.  We become responsible to the knowledge of what He wants; we become
God-centered instead of self-centered.

  Reincarnation?  What choice do you have in that?  As I understand the
concept, if you choose to be good, you are promoted up the scale towards
Nirvana (ultimate heaven; oneness with God).  Let's assume for the moment
that reincarnation is the system, what changes between that and the
ups and downs of this one life?  In many respects, I think that the idea
of reincarnation trivializes God and His love because it says that one 
lifetime is not enough to choose God over self.  In the Bible, it says 
we have but one life and it is God's gift to us.  Over and over it
tells us that the day of decision is now; not in another life if I get
it wrong, or even choose to reject God this time around.  There is a verse
in the Old Testament where God is recorded to have said (paraphrase):
"I set before you life and death: but I would have you choose life!"

God offers us the choice because He is Love and without choice, there can
be no love.  God also indicates that he would prefer that we use our 
soveriegn choice to choose Him instead of using it to reject Him.  He will
not stop our rejection -- because He is Love.

Mark

Hello Fung Siong, and welcome!

It is good for us to see how Christianity looks 'from the outside', and to 
try to make the bridge to show what it means to us!

Others have given good explanations, but I believe each perspective can 
help to draw the understanding together, so I'll take a few more minutes to 
consider your questions.

The first important thing to understand is that this world, and the life 
thaht we each have here is limited - it will end one day, whether we live a 
few minutes, or a hundred years.  It is temporary.  God is not temporary; 
He is eternal.  All His characteristics are like this, perfect, complete,
supreme.  Including that most important characteristic of love.  In the
Bible, in 1 John 4:8,16 He is called by this Name, as it says : "God is
love" 

God created man ultimately to be with Him in heaven.  We don't only exist
for our brief time on earth.  The greatest benefit for any individual is
not just to have an enjoyable life or a healthy life, but to have a life
which best prepares him to be in God's presence for eternity.

In considering yuor questions, think it would be helpful to summarise the
message of the Bible as follows : 

  Mankind, God's precious creation, chooses his own way instead of God's
  perfection. Genesis chapter 3 shows how this happened.  God's perfect
  righteousness says that justice must be done - rebellion cannot dwell in
  the eternity of heaven, to mar it for all, so God Himself came into the 
  world as a perfect person - the LORD Jesus Christ - to be for us the
  righteouness that is impossible for us to attain by ourselves.  The most
  important thing that Jesus did was in His death, when He took the penalty 
  of our sins in His body.

  During this present age, judgement on the earth's wickedness is due, but 
  withheld until many people have entered God's kingdom, through the 
  sacrifice of the LORD Jesus.

With that foundation, I'll try to look at the questions!

1. Why does God create suffering in the first place? 
   Why doesn't He utilise His Power and Love to eliminate it so every being
   can experience eternal happiness? 
   Why does He put us under trying?

When man disobeyed God, he accepted a different leader.  He chose to obey 
the devil, or satan, a fallen angel in rebellion against God.  Therefore he 
chose to put himself under the devil';s rule and dominion, and became 
subject to the devil's laws.  One of these laws is death.  God warned Adam 
that disobeying would bring death (in Genesis 2:17), and this is part of 
satan's world which man has chosen to enter.  Romans 6:23 emphasises the 
difference between living under the devil's rules, and living in God's 
freedom, by :
 "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life, in Jesus 
  Christ our LORD."

At the fall of man, with death, came pain, and curse, and many such things 
- because we had voluntarily entered the realm of the devil.

This may explain why those who are still in rebellion against God suffer, 
but there is a purpose for the Christian in suffering - it performs a
useful purpose within us.  Several verses mention this : 

  "Since Christ suffered in this way, arm yourselves also with this 
   attitude, becsuse he who has suffered in his body is done with sin.  As a 
   result, he does not live the rest of his earthly life for evil human 
   desires, but rather for the will of God...."
							1 Peter 4:1-2

  "Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons .....
   Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but 
   God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in His holiness.  No 
   discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful.  Later on, however,  
   it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been 
   trained by it."
							Hebrews 12:7...12



You know, God could step in and prevent everything evil.  Put a stop to 
all sin, suffering and cruelty.  One day He will do so.  But whose measure 
of what is right and what is wrong would he use?  We all have our own 
excuses and limits which are not only different from each other, but 
changing as we grow older...  God will use the only standard that has any 
true value.  That is His own criterion of perfection.  And it is His 
patience that restrains His hand of judgement now, to permit many to enter 
into the forgiveness and salvation that He has made for us.

2 Peter 3:9 expresses this :

  "The LORD is not slow in keeping His promise, as some understand 
   slowneses.  He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but 
   everyone to come to repentance."

When Jesus returns to put an end to sin, the works of the devil are judged.  
Those who refuse God's forgiveness, and remain in the kingdom of satan 
have, by their choice, opted to remain with satan for eternity, because 
they cannot bear the perfection of God....

			- I'll continue the discussion in another reply

								Andrew

Hello again ... in continuation :

2.  Secondly, why should we bear the original sin from Adam, why didn't He
    forgive us? Even a human parent will forgive his/her children even
    though they made some mistake. I understand that Jesus came down to
    earth to sacrifice himself for our sins, he was crucified for that.
    Why didn't God prevent all that by showing his forgiveness without
    having to put His Only Son under such heavy suffering?

Even in human terms, we inherit many characteristics from our parents.  
When Adam broke the relationship between man and God, it was not like a 
broken arm which would heal by itself.  It was a part of his nature, and he 
had been warned about this, because the 'knowledge of good and evil' - the 
awareness of a choice to disobey God - could not just be erased as if it had 
never been.  It had become a part of the inheritance of all mankind, 
because mankind inherited Adam's eternal character; something we do not see 
'on the surface'.

We see things from an earthly perspective.  We think that when something is 
past, it is gone, and need only be remembered if we choose to.  But 
eternity is different.  In eternity there is no ageing or decay.  If a sin 
is established as a part of eternal reality, eternity is marred.  When the 
LORD Jesus shed His blood, He was not just performing a deed which time 
would pass by.  He was doing something which reaches into eternity to 
actually blot out the reality of our sin; to cancel it out.

Hebrews 10:12 refers to the LORD Jesus, our high priest and sacrifice,as 
follows :

  "When this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, 
   He sat down at the right hand of God.  Since that time He waits for His 
   enemies to be made His footstool, because by one sacrifice He has made 
   perfect for ever those who are being made holy."

When the LORD Jesus died for us, the offering of His blood did a real work 
in heaven, which all the Old Testament sacrifices only pictured.  Hebrews 9 
describes this, for instance verses 11-12 :

  "When Christ came as a high priest of the good things that are already 
   here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not 
   manmade, that is to say, not a part of this creation.  ..... He entered the 
   Most Holy Place once for all by His own blood, having obtained eternal 
   redmption..."

Here we are talking about the rules that govern eternity; not just the 
rules that govern time, and only the wisdom of God can say what is required 
to make a rebellious people holy.

			- to be continued in another reply

								Andrew

Hello yet again.  This concludes my replies for now :

3.  Thirdly, why do we have so many unjustice in the world? Why are some
    people created handsome, some really ugly, some rich, some terribly
    poor? What about those children who were born dead, did they go to
    Heaven or Hell? How about animals? Is the concept of reincarnation
    totally unacceptable in Christianity?

Many questions in this one, which I will separate out!

� Thirdly, why do we have so many unjustice in the world? Why are some
� people created handsome, some really ugly, some rich, some terribly
� poor? 
This again goes back to the purpose of this life.  It is not just to have a 
good time, but to prepare to meet God.  In the previous reply, we saw that 
the difficulties of this life work to perfect our soul, that we might have 
a more glorious eternity.  In that sense, you might say that those who have 
a particular worldly burden to bear actually have an eternal advantage.  
The acclaim of the world is not what wins man a place in God's heart, and 
worldly goods are more likely to come between a man and heaven than help 
him to get there.

Matthew 19:23-24 says :
  "Then Jesus said to His disciples, 'I tell you the truth, it is hard for a 
   rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.  Again, I tell you, it is easier 
   for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to 
   enter the kingdom of God'"

And Matthew 16:26 :
   "What will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits 
    his soul?  Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?"

Your greatest hardship is the thing that gives you opportunity to honour 
God most.  If your eyes are on this world alone, they will seem intolerable 
burdens.  If your eyes are upon God, they are nothing.  Paul, who suffered 
in many ways, could say "I consider thath our present sufferings are not 
worth conmparing with the glory that will be revealed in us... Romans 8:18.

� What about those children who were born dead, did they go to Heaven or Hell?
In Genesis 18, the time has come for judgement to be brought on the 
excessively wicked Sodom and Gomorrah.  God uses this as an object lesson 
for Abraham, who is shocked at the great destruction it will mean, and 
starts to plead with God, saying "Will not the Judge of all th earth do 
right?". - until at last he realises the truth of this; that God, who 
loves the world so much that He chose to bear the pain of our punishment, 
would not visit destruction on unnecessarily.

Much as we love children, God knows them better and loves them more.  His 
salvation can extend to those who have not rejected Him, whether they are 
unborn, or live outside where the Bible is preached, or before Jesus lived 
and died for us.  He knows the heart.  Psalm 19 reminds us that God's 
perfection is evident from creation - 
  "The heavens declare the glory of God...", and 
  "There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard"

and Romans 1:19-20 says :
  "...what may be known about Godis plain...becaus God has made it 
   plain...for since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities 
   - His eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being 
   understood from what has been mde, so that men are without excuse..."

� How about animals? 
Animals are a part of this creation, and we are responsible for how we 
care for them (Genesis 1:26,28).

� Is the concept of reincarnation totally unacceptable in Christianity?
Yes.  Hebrews 9:27 tells us that "...man is destined to die once, and after 
that to face judgement...".  
Life is not a matter of experiencing all that there is to experience, but 
of experiencing God's grace, and we have a lifetime of opportunity to respond 
to His invitation to eternal life.  If we respond "No!", however many 
lifetimes we had would not reverse tha decision, and would only multiply 
evil.  If we respond "Yes!", we fulfil His work in this life He gives us.  
After we die, we see Him.  Our  work of sanctification is completed in 
thath instance (1 John 3:2 - "when we see Him we shall be like Him, for we 
shall see Him as He is").  

Our development here on the earth is through faith.  Sight - actually 
standing in His presence - moves us into another realm, where faith is no 
longer a channel of growth.  Faith is responding where we cannot see, and 
is the exercising of our traus and love of God.  The completion of that 
area of growth cannot be reversed to put us back on earth in ignorance of 
what we have experienced.

Christians have other understanding of certain claims by mediums.  They are
acting through spirits whose ultimate aim is to delude us away from the
LORD Jesus.
  
4.    Lastly, if God has boundless Love and Power, he should certainly know
    what we are going to do, and what's going to happen in our lives today,
    and tomorrow. Does human being have free-will at all, then?
    
Did you choose to ask that, or did He make you?  ;-)

When I asked the LORD Jesus into my heart, it was because I could see that
He was all my heart desired.  I chose to.  It was totally my own free will.
I found out later that He knew beforehand.  Before the creation of the
world, in fact.  That didn't invalidate my choice.  It didn't mean that I
was made into a robot.  I still sin.  Even though I don't want to, and He
doesn't want me to.  It's part of my learning and growing process, as I
find out what is sin and what isn't, and find out what areas of my life I
can choose to give to Him. 

However this question is one of the imponderables that people will discuss 
until they stpe into eternity and see the truth of it!!!

May God bless you and guide you into His truth, and abundance of joy!

							Andrew

    Hello Fung Siong,

    Every person who is honest in evaluating the world they see around them,
    and the experiences they have or see others having, must, in some way,
    come to terms with the questions you are asking.  Complete and concrete
    understandable answers, a person may not ever find, but it is necessary
    in some fashion to come to peace with the questions.  I will try to 
    explain how I have come to peace with the issues you bring up in your note.

    I will be including some quotes from the Bible as I try to answer your 
    questions, and since its what I have with me today, all the quotes will 
    be from the Revised English version of the Bible.  What we call the Bible,
    which I have come to accept as one of God's revelations to humanity, 
    does not seem to answer the "why" questions you are asking.  It addresses 
    the "what" and "who", and sometimes the "how" but leaves the "why" somewhat 
    concealed and therefore open to individuals to wrestle with, and to develop
    personal interpretations about.  In the book of the Bible known as Exodus,
    Moshe (Moses) tells the people (and us) "There are things hidden and they 
    belong to the Lord our God, but what is revealed belongs to us and to our 
    children forever; it is for us to observe all that is presribed in this 
    law."  Deuteronomy 29:29.  So understand that I cannot answer for God, but
    can only answer so much as I imperfectly understand.

>>    First about suffering. Why does God create suffering in the first
>>    place? 

    God did not create suffering per se.  Suffering is the result of the 
    world's, and particularly, humanity's attempt to be their own end, to be 
    "like" God.  God, gave us a certain amount of responsibility and choice.  
    Another way of looking at this is He gave us purpose and significance.  
    In a way, He made the earth partly dependent upon the humans to whom He 
    gave it.

    We can be partners with God or work against Him.  Because God is the 
    source of existence, when existence tries to divorce itself from God it
    starts to unravel and "rot".  Why God gave us this awesome responsibility
    and choice, I don't know.  What things would have been like had He not,
    I don't know, and I certainly cannot express the shivers I get inside 
    when I realize how much power God has placed in our hands, and yet how
    powerless we are without God.  Its a very strange dichotomy.  

>>    Why doesn't He utilise His Power and Love to eliminate it so
>>    every being can experience eternal happiness?

    Eventually, God will eliminate sin and all the pain, death, suffering,
    corruption and misery it brings.  His purposes in working this through
    history and in partnership with humanity are not revealed to us.  But 
    He has told us that 1) in the end, things will be put right and 2) to
    be patient because there is a reason for how things are being worked out.
    I don't have a concordance here, but after I get home, I will try to find 
    the Biblical passages from which I make these statements.

>>    Why does He put us under trying?

    Testing or trying can bring about maturity and growth in a way that I do
    not understand.  Because of my mother's death, I can better reach out to
    those who are faced with the death of a loved one.  This does not make
    me think of her death as a good thing, nor is suffering something to 
    celebrate or seek after, but knowing that suffering can make one wiser,
    stronger, more mature can give it meaning and make things bearable.  The 
    experience my husband and I recently came out of, he was layed-off in the 
    round of Digital cut-backs in June, and was unemployed for seven months, 
    has made us stronger in ways that I cannot concretely define or
    enumerate, but I can sense and feel the added strength we now have.

    One of the Biblical writers, Yaacov, who is known as James in most English
    translations, sent these assurances to the Jewish believers of Yeshua
    (Jesus) in the diaspora:

    "My friends, whenever you have to face all sorts of trials, count 
    yourself extremely happy in the knowledge that such testing of 
    your faith makes for strength to endure.  Let endurance perfect its
    work in you that you may become perfected, sound throughout, lacking
    in nothing."                                   Yaacov or James 1:2-4
    
    
>>    Secondly, why should we bear the original sin from Adam, why didn't He
>>    forgive us? Even a human parent will forgive his/her children even
>>    though they made some mistake. 

    Why is it that the way parents rear their children can affect the lives
    the children lead even after the parents have died?  Choices my grand-
    parents' parents made, contribute to who I am today, and yet I am 
    personally responsible for my own choices.  It is not Adam's or Chava's
    (Eve's) sin for which I must seek forgiveness and atonement, but my own
    sin.  Such is the nature of the rift that Adam and Chava's disobedience
    brought about that it perpetuates itself to not only all their offspring
    throughout the generations of the earth, but also to the earth and the
    earth's creatures which were all placed in humanity's care.  This is one 
    of those "why" questions that the Bible seems to be silent on. 

    God does forgive us when we repent.  Though it may be a bit hard to grasp 
    at first because we are so busy trying to justify and exonerate ourselves 
    on our own, and point fingers of blame and complaint at God, God's mercy 
    and compassion are testified to from the very beginning of the Bible right 
    through to the last page, and in our lives today.

    The chosen people, Israel, are one example of how God's patience and 
    forgiveness are extended through time.  From a small family grows a large 
    nation that has an intimate relationship with God, yet they are quick 
    to question and move away from knowing the One, true Living God into idol 
    worship.  God does bring them hardship and chastisement, but He also does 
    not let them be destroyed, He brings them back to Himself, and restores 
    and heals them.  Even today we see this, from the ashes of the horror of 
    the holocaust, eratz Yisrael (the land of Isreal) is restored to the 
    Jewish people.  Through the prophet Isaiah, God speaks these words to 
    Israel, and through them to all humanity:

    "Seek the Lord while He is present, call to Him while He is close at hand.
    Let the wicked abandon their ways and the evil their thoughts: let them 
    return to the Lord, who will take pity on them, and to our God, for He
    will freely forgive.  For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your 
    ways my ways ... You will go out with joy and be led forth in peace."

    Isaiah 55:6-8, 12
     
>>    I understand that Jesus came down to
>>    earth to sacrifice himself for our sins, he was crucified for that.
>>    Why didn't God prevent all that by showing his forgiveness without
>>    having to put His Only Son under such heavy suffering?

    How or why it is that sin can only be erased through an atoning, perfect
    sacrifice is beyound the realms of our knowledge and understanding.  Yet,
    the Son is One with the Father.  God, our Creator, bore the chastisement
    for our sin.  Its a mystery and a mercy beyond our fathoming.  It is a
    gift given so that the rift which divides us from God is disolved.  Again,
    there is a mysterious partnership that we have with God.  He has paid a
    ransom for us, but we must exercise faith in order to experience its
    effect.

    Yochanon, better known in English as John, has expressed it this way:

    "God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that everyone who
    has faith in Him may not persish but have eternal life."  John 3:16
        
>>    Thirdly, why do we have so many unjustice in the world? Why are some
>>    people created handsome, some really ugly, some rich, some terribly
>>    poor? 

   This world is full of inequalities, but this world does not stand alone.
   In the world to come, much will change.  Over and over in the Bible those
   who are blessed with riches, wealth, power, who have a human advantage over
   others, are told that they must show kindness, compassion, generosity,
   and protection to those whose position in life is less favorable.  In 
   doing so, we honor God, in not doing so we are dishonoring God.  Furthermore,
   we will one day have to answer for our actions before the judgement throne
   of God.

>>    What about those children who were born dead, did they go to
>>    Heaven or Hell? How about animals? 

   The Bible is silent on what happens to animals, and to children who are 
   still born.  I think the story of the death of David's infant son,
   who was the product of an illicit union between David and Bathsheba while
   she was married to another, shows that David, at least, expected that he
   would know and see his son in the world to come.  In these days of abortion
   on demand, for convenience sake, most people do not even give a thought to
   the little ones who die before or at birth.

   In this area, what I have finally come to is that I have seen so much of
   God's mercy and compassion, and have also seen that His ways are not my
   ways, but are far above and better than my ways, that I simply accept
   that whatever God chooses (has chosen) is the way that is right, fair, 
   just and so on.  Even though I do not know what happens, I trust Him.

>>    Is the concept of reincarnation totally unacceptable in Christianity?

   I am not sure.  But I think somewhere in the Bible it says that it
   is appointed for human beings to die but once, and from what I've seen
   of the process of dying, I am thankful for that.  My life is unique and
   special and I have had to expend countless energy, effort, and heart into
   living it and having relationships with friends, family, husband, community,
   aquaintences and so.  The process of dying can be physically painful, and 
   is terribly hard on those who love you.  Once is enough, and then I want to
   be with God while awaiting the resurrection.  I will try to remember to 
   check a concordance tonight and see if I can find the Bible passage about
   being appointed to die only once.
    
>>    Lastly, if God has boundless Love and Power, he should certainly know
>>    what we are going to do, and what's going to happen in our lives today,
>>    and tomorrow. Does human being have free-will at all, then?

   Usually this issue is presented as an either/or.  For me, this is a paradox
   where both sides are equally true and to live any other way puts a strain
   that cannot be balanced or properly dealt with.  God is infinate, boundless
   in existence, in knowing, in sovereignty over the totality of all that ever
   has been, is, and ever will be.  Yet we have purpose and significance.  Our
   choices and actions make a difference and affect the course of history, our
   own destiny and the destiny of others as well.  Again, there are statements
   in the Bible that put forth as true both sides of the sovereignty/free will
   equation.  Here are a couple:

   "Today I offer you the choice of life and good, or death and evil.  If
   you obey the commandments of the Lord your God which I give you this day,
   by loving the Lord your God, conforming to His ways, and keeping His
   commandments, statutes, and laws, then you will live and increase, and 
   the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you are about to enter
   to occupy.  But if in your heart you turn away and do not listen, and you 
   are led astray to worship other gods and serve them, I tell you here and 
   now that you will perish, and not enjoy long life in the land which you
   will enter to occupy after crossing the Jordan.  I summon heaven and earth
   to witness agaisnt you this day:  I offer you the choice of life or death,
   blessing or curse."                           Deuteronomy 30:15-19
   
   "This word of the Lord came to me: 'Before I formed you in the womb I 
   chose you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you
   a prophet to the nations.'"                    Jeremiah 1:4-5

   There are plenty more that illustrate that we have true choice and freewill,
   and yet that God is sovereign -- God chooses and God ordains.  This issue
   used to trouble me greatly until I realized that somewhere, somehow, these
   two seemingly antithetical points had their meeting place and resolution
   in the infinate God and I merely needed to live both truths.

   I hope this has been at least a little helpful to you, Fung.

   Leslie

Well, I see that Andrew has been busy entering replies while I've been
writing, and that in some areas our replies overlap, and in some they're
a bit different, and I'm glad of that because, as Andrew said in noting
that writers before him had good input, this will give you a broad 
perspective on the questions you've asked.

I suppose I should actually have broken my reply into several smaller,
under 100 line, replies, and if the moderators want, I can extract my
note and break it down into smaller replies to go back in.

Leslie

    Hallo Kind People,
    
    Thanks for taking the time to the comprehensive replies; although
    I still further questions for you :-). I am impressed by your
    affectionate, understanding responses... None of you critisizes me,
    which is really comforting.
    
    Please give me some time as I am occupied at the moment and I will
    talk to you again, soon.
    
    Many thanks,
    Fung Siong                      
    
    PS: Just call me 'Fung'. Thanks!

    Hi Fung,

    I would like to address your questions about suffering.  You asked, "Why
    does God create suffering in the first place?" followed by, "Why
    doesn't He utilize His Power and Love to eliminate it so every being
    can experience eternal happiness?" and, "Why does he put us under trying?"

    Since you have stated that you are not a Christian I might assume that
    you are not religious in any sense (i.e. you do not practice or have not
    been trained in some non-Christian religion).  May I assume this?  If so,
    I would ask you the question, "What explanation for suffering or what hope 
    for escaping any suffering does the non-believer have?"

    For your consideration, it is logically possible that there is no such 
    thing as "innocent" suffering and that it is God's mercy which saves men 
    from more suffering which they do deserve.  The issue is not really that 
    there is innocent suffering but that there is some unredeemable or 
    unjustifiable suffering.  The Christian may argue that some "innocent" 
    suffering is good and that this world is not the final chapter in the 
    story of human suffering.  This is not the best of all possible worlds but 
    suffering may be the best of all possible ways to obtain the best possible 
    world, which world is yet to come.  Suffering seems to be a necessary 
    precondition for achieving the greatest good.  And experience tells us 
    that the most worthwhile things in life are often achieved only through 
    pain.

    God *has* utilized His Power and Love to eliminate suffering.  He has shown
    mercy abundantly in history and describes Himself as "rich in mercy".
    And most incredibly He gave Himself (Jesus Christ) to suffer as a 
    sacrifice for the sins of the world so that there would be a way for us 
    sufferers to be reconciled to God, thus eliminating much of the suffering 
    that we cause ourselves (as a result of living new, holy lives).  And 
    Christians have a promise and down payment (the seal of God Himself, the 
    Holy Spirit) that we will indeed live without suffering altogether when 
    united with Him after this life is through.

    For the Christian, suffering as a result of doing good or right is
    something ultimately positive.  For the Christian, suffering refines
    the character and is all applied and controlled by God Himself!  Suffering
    at the hands of God, for our sake, is completely different than suffering
    at the hands of who-knows-what (fate?), for no reason. 

    I have a daughter, Caroline, who died suddenly two years ago at the age 
    of two.  She was sweet beyond description and I love her more than my own 
    life. I suffered greatly when I lost her to death.  The grief might have
    caused me to destroy my life (suicide) and the lives of others in the
    process.  But God demonstrated His profound care and love for me in my
    grief largely alleviating my suffering.  And I have begun to
    understand a bit how the suffering He ordained has changed
    me for the better and enabled me to know Him in a way that I would not
    have known Him without the suffering.  The reality of suffering is that
    God reveals Himself most to those who are broken by suffering and are
    the weakest. After having come so close, a person can never be the same 
    and is marveled in a lasting way.  I would say it is worth it.
    
    jeff    

    Dear All,
    
    I've read and re-read your replies to my notes, some do enlighten me
    on Christian explanations about suffering, original sin, and salvation.
    Eg, I can appreciate the argument that suffering is actually a way
    to educate us, to bring maturity into our lives. That Christianity
    actually accepts the concept of free will, it is our choice to go
    in God's way or the other way.
    There are a few references to Bible, and today I've got mine albeit
    only for New Testament (from the Gideons). I believe my questions
    are actually an ongoing quest for answers that is not easily
    resolved in one discussion. 
    
    Some further questions:
    
    (1) Which version of Bible would you recommend for me to read and
        study?
    (2) Is there a good commentary on Bible that explains the meaning
        (instead of the content only) for new readers?
    (3) Another question: supposed a person lives a holy life, abstaining
        from evil and doing all good. He's never been aware of the Bible
        and Jesus Christ, by any reason (maybe he lives in a REALLY
        remote place). Will he go to heaven, or will he go to hell,
        as the salvation should involve Christ in the process?
    (4) If you were asked to summarize the essence of Christianity
        teachings in a few words, how would you define it? So far
        I'd summarize the teaching as "To attain salvation from evil
        through Jesus Christ, to regain unity with God". Please comment!
    
    Thanks so much for your kind replies,
    Fung Siong
    

Hello Fung!

    (1) Which version of Bible would you recommend for me to read and
        study?

I find the NIV both easy to understand, in today's English, and accurate 
enough to feel I'm understanding what is intended.  For serious study, the 
King James New King James, and American Standard are good, though by then 
one is getting on to needing the serious concordances and commentaries too.

    (2) Is there a good commentary on Bible that explains the meaning
        (instead of the content only) for new readers?
I've been looking for one that satisfies me, but haven't yet found anything 
to match teaching tapes for depth in specific areas.

    (3) Another question: supposed a person lives a holy life, abstaining
        from evil and doing all good. He's never been aware of the Bible
        and Jesus Christ, by any reason (maybe he lives in a REALLY
        remote place). Will he go to heaven, or will he go to hell,
        as the salvation should involve Christ in the process?

The Bible tells us that all our attempts to be good enough will never get 
us to heaven.  That all our righteousness is like filthy rags compared to 
God's absolute holiness.  So that while we should try to live holy lives, 
we should never imagine that this can make us as righteous as God, or 
cancel out one sin.  It is only the work of the LORD Jesus that opens the 
way to heaven.

However, there are some places in the Bible which teach us that the
evidence of God is in His creation around us.  Psalm 19:1-4a says : 
  "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of 
   His hands.  Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night 
   they display knowledge.  There is no speech or language where their 
   voice is not heard.  Their voice goes out to the ends of the world."

The creation that God has made is so wonderful that ordinary man should 
recognise the fingerprint of God in it.  It is designed so beautifully and 
precisely that anyone should be personally aware that the plans and 
workings of his own heart just don't live up to it.  He should recognise 
that the God Who has made such a perfect design, with man at the centre, is 
demonstrating a great love for mankind.  And that to be as perfect in 
thought and deed as the creation around needs another miraculous work by 
this Creator.  This psalm emphasises that there is no country or language 
which is out of sight of this evidence of God.


Acts 14:17 says of God :
  "...He has not left Himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by 
   giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons; He provides you 
   with plenty of food and fills your hearts with joy..."

- which effectively makes the same point.

Romans 1:20 makes it even more unmistakable :

  "...what may be known about God is plain ... because God has made it 
   plain... For since the creation of the world, God's invisible qualities 
   - His eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being 
   understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

This tells us that on the judgement day, people who never heard the name of 
the LORD Jesus, or even any mention of God the Creator can reasonably be 
expected to recognise and respond to the evidence of Him in creation.  
While there are those who will be condemned for rejecting this recognition, 
the implication is also that there are those who *do* respond without 
explicit knowledge of the precise mechanism of the gospel, and are saved by 
the blood of Jesus.

So - if a person relies on their own holiness, they are settling for a
second best, which cannot save.  If they throw themselves truly on God's
mercy, He has room for them.  Once they have reached the point of relying 
on God's righteousness to earn them heaven instead of their own 
'righteousness', their hearts would be open to accept God's *way* of 
salvation,  were they to hear it, as well as the *fact* of it.

So even the salvation of one who never hears of Jesus Christ still involves 
the work of the Lord Jesus, received by their faith in God.  Some people 
this applies to are mentioned in Hebrews 11 - Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham 
and Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and many others.  Just examples, not an 
exhaustive list!  This chapter reminds us of some who received the 
righteousness of God, by faith.

    (4) If you were asked to summarize the essence of Christianity
        teachings in a few words, how would you define it? So far
        I'd summarize the teaching as "To attain salvation from evil
        through Jesus Christ, to regain unity with God". Please comment!

� "To attain salvation from evil through Jesus Christ, to regain unity with God"
I like that as far as it goes...  We are by nature a part of the rebellion, 
with the unity of Genesis 2: to be regained.  However, the salvation is to 
change our nature, so that we are freed from the grip of sin, and become 
'not guilty' instead of 'guilty'.  Hence we are saved from the just 
judgement of God's wrath.   We become children of God, taking on His 
nature, though that is a life-time experience while in this body, 
completed only when we meet him face to face (1 John 3:2).

Perhaps it's best summarised by John 20:31, where he says about his 
writings: 
   "...these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, 
    the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in His Name."

Or 1 John 5:11
   "...God has given us eternal life, and that life is in His Son..."

I've skimmed point 4 because of time, and not given many references to back
it up; if this raises more queries, I can dig further, though others will
no doubt be doing this also! 

						God bless
								Andrew 

    (3) Another question: supposed a person lives a holy life, abstaining
        from evil and doing all good. He's never been aware of the Bible
        and Jesus Christ, by any reason (maybe he lives in a REALLY
        remote place). Will he go to heaven, or will he go to hell,
        as the salvation should involve Christ in the process?


The best answer is "I don't know."  But here is what we do know.
(a) We are responsible to the knowledge that we have.
(b) God is just and fair and will condemn no one unjustly.
(c) There were many people commended for their faith who never knew
      the Messiah's name, yet it is through Jesus that they entered
      into the presence of God.  There is no other name by which men
      might be saved, but as in Abraham's example, hearing the name
      was unecessary for his faith in God.  
(d) We have the responsibility to bring a clearer Truth to people and
      teach them the name in whom they have placed their faith or in
      whom they can place their faith.

This is NOT a doctrine of universalism.  Universalism says that all paths
lead to God.  Christianity says that Christ is the Way, the Truth, the Life,
the Door, the Good Shepherd, the Vine, the Bread of Life.  Many paths lead
to destruction.

    (4) If you were asked to summarize the essence of Christianity
        teachings in a few words, how would you define it? So far
        I'd summarize the teaching as "To attain salvation from evil
        through Jesus Christ, to regain unity with God". Please comment!

The essence of Christianity:

Love the Lord Your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with
all your mind, and with all your strength.  And love your neighbor as
yourself.

What does the Lord require of Thee but to do justice, love mercy, and
walk humbly with your God?
---

Who is God?  How do we know we are on the path to life instead of the
path to destruction?  Hebrews 11:6 says that God is a rewarder of those
who diligently seek Him.  Not casual seeking, but searching.  When we
sincerely seek God out, He will reveal Himself to us - as much as we can 
receive at any given time.

Mark

	To me, it's also interesting to note that, although the name of
our Savior was not explicitly known to Old Testament saints, they would
have been familiar with the vocabulary:

Hebrew:	Yeshua:	"Ye" = God (from Yah, short for Yahweh/Jehovah)
		"shua" = (is our) salvation
	= "God is our salvation"; same name as Joshua

	ha Mashiyach = the Messiah; the Anointed/Consecrated One

Greek: Iesous Christos

English: Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever!