Conference yukon::christian_v7

658.0. "Oh, how we change and grow" by PAULKM::WEISS (Trade freedom for His security-GAIN both) Thu Jan 12 1995 16:16

I've mentioned how I've changed over the years, and I got myself curious.  I
went back through the archived versions of CHRISTIAN.NOTE to find some of my
earlier entries.  I had to go back a bit farther than I thought, back nearly
eight years.  Included below are extracts from a few of my earlier notes.  I
removed some of the portions of these notes that referred specifically to
events or discussions within that note.

It's amazing to me how we change and grow.  Eight years ago I was eager to
accept anything that felt good to me as truth.  Over the last eight years
I've come to learn that Truth DOES exist, and therefore that falsehood exists
also.  

Note that in these notes, I'm talking with another person named Paul, so be
careful how you parse things.

Paul

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>    I have been called everything under the sun at times (I lose count when 
> people start using profanity, however).  And the fact remains that what I 
> have stated and shared in these discussions HAS BEEN judged by some who 
> ignore the Word as "unworthy of believing" and even "not of God".  

So people have done it to you, and perhaps you haven't been bothered by it.  
People have done it to me too.  That does not make it right, that will not
ever make me say to someone "You do not understand God correctly."  Romans
14:4 "Who are you to pass judgement on the servant of another?  It is before
his own master that he stands or falls.  And he will be upheld, for the
Master is able to make him stand."

> what I believe WORKS IN MY LIFE, AND WORKS IN THE LIVES 
> OF OTHERS, ALSO.  If it were merely a bunch of "fun believisms" (like Santa 
> Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, among other lies), ie "religious 
> myths", then I would be insulted, because such things are born out of shere 
> carnality and fleshly activity irrespective of whether or not God approves 
> of it, and the flesh is easily insulted.  When the flesh is dead, a "dead
> man" can't be insulted.

> That's not my perspective - that's God's.  

>    I can't trust a haphazard, random, whimsical deity who "doctor's" his 
> own word from time to time, and chooses one minute to bless people and the 
> next choosing to blight them.  My God has integrity of character - unlike 
> the "mush-deity", the "god of Ammendable and alterable words", of humanism 
> and carnal man's devising and creation.


I am (no sarcasm here) full of joy that what you believe works in your life
and in the lives of others also.  My beliefs are in some particulars
different from yours, and they work in my life, and in the lives of others. 
Can you be full of joy over that?  Again, here, you call any beliefs other
than your own 'fun believisms', comparing them with the tooth fairy, and
making them appear to be worship of a 'haphazard, random, whimsical
mush-deity." Why must you be so antagonistic to any form of belief other than
the one you hold?  If you have listened to other people's perspective,
Dick's, for example, you will find that the above characterizations are
totally unwarranted.  Your responses indicate that you are not listening, but
merely waiting until he is finished so you can counter what he is saying. 
Conversations go nowhere this way, a meaningful conversation can only be held
if BOTH parties SEEK TO UNDERSTAND ONE ANOTHER.

I accept, Paul, that your acceptance of the scriptures has been a tremendous
positive force in your life.  Can you accept that in an open Christian forum
ridiculing the sincerely held beliefs of others is not conductive to harmony?
In the political arena, it has been said "I may not agree with what you say, 
but I will defend to the death your right to say it."  This is not a
political arena, but I will still defend that right.  If I think you are
wrong, I will try as best I can to reason with you and point out where I
think you are wrong.  But I will never (anybody please take me to task if you
catch me doing this) ridicule other beliefs, or tell people flat out "you're
wrong."  I for one am certainly not going to try to set myself up as a
perfect mouthpiece of God.  "We see through a glass, dimly."  I see through a
glass dimly, and so do you.  If we see something slightly different, do you
not think that by discussing our two perspectives that perhaps we can BOTH
come to a greater understanding of the God that we both seek?  Can we not,
PLEASE, PLEASE disagree in love?

I welcome from you, Paul, or anyone, input as to where you think I am wrong.
But I, for one, am not yet a completed Christian.  If you patronize me and 
ridicule my beliefs, I will be FAR, FAR less likely to listen to, think
about, or accept anything you say.  When you say, "well, my perspective is
God's perspective, so if you disagree with me, you're wrong," I know
immediately that you are not seeking to understand me, that you are not
interested in the view that *I* see through the dim glass, and so I tend to
lose interest in what you have to say to me.  And it's such a shame, because
you have such a strong faith and know the Bible so well.

I'll enter my plea again:  could we please, please, have a little less 
'knowledge' and a little more love in this conference?

Paul
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Of course I'm at least as eccentric as Paul Lucier.  All I ask is recognition 
that we are both revolving around the SAME CENTER.

I agree that Paul has one standard, and I love him for it.  I love the total 
dedication that he has to it, and I love his love of the Lord and others.  I 
recognize that he is supremely concerned with saving souls.

Paul's one standard is his interpretation of the Bible.

To say that his standard is "The Word of God," and thus, again, that anyone
who disagrees with him is wrong, is just an invitation to divisiveness.

For scripture backup, all of Romans 14.  Paul (the apostle.  It gets
confusing when I Paul am talking about two other Pauls :^)) here gives two
examples of conflicting doctrines, one of eating meat, and one of "esteeming
one day better than another."  And he specifically says: "Let not him who
eats despise him who abstains, and let not him who abstains pass judgement on
him who eats.." vs 3, and "Let everyone be convinced in his own mind.  He who
observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord.  He also who eats, eats
in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while he who abstains,
abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God." vs5-6

I am joyous that Paul (Lucier) honors the scriptures, and gives thanks to God
for revealing their truth to him.  I am also joyous that Dick questions the 
scriptures, and gives thanks to God for leading him on his pilgrimage in
life.  They are BOTH hungering after God in their hearts.  Is that not an
occasion to be joyous, on both accounts?  The Bible has specifically told us
here, that when we differ on doctrine, but are both honoring God, that we are
NOT to pass judgement on each other.  Telling each other "I'm right, and
you're wrong" (or worse) is clearly passing judgement on each other.  


Paul
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No, Paul, Romans 14 is not all I read.  It just happens to be a passage that
applies directly to the issue at hand.  And of course my understanding of it
may be totally off base.

But I apologize to you and to all if you think that I am making cheap shots
or applying a double standard.  And I recognize that in my poor attempts to
defuse divisiveness, I have to some extent only fueled the fires.  I wondered
whether I should say anything here, because I was afraid this would happen. 
But I had to try.  I apologize to all if I have done badly or made things
worse.  Ah well, the process is not yet completed in me.

All I have been trying to say is this:  I often feel that as Christians we 
behave much like the blind men and the elephant.  We argue vehemently that
the elephant is like a piece of rope, or a tree trunk, or a wall, when if we
all sat down and LISTENED to one another we could ALL benefit and gain a much
more complete picture of what we are encountering.  And that's just 5 men,
and only an elephant.  Here we have billions of people, and an infinite God. 
Not one of our minds is capable of encompassing and grasping all that is God.
Can we not share our experiences with one another?  Can we not LISTEN to each
other, and perhaps ALL benefit by gaining a perspective of God that we cannot
see from where we stand?  

Paul

    My, isn't that the truth!  I have been amusing myself by reading some
    of my posts from as recently as 2 or 3 months ago.  I either cringe or
    I laugh out loud.  Sometimes the changes in us are subtle and are only
    noticable over a long period of time.  Sometimes it is a lot faster, as
    in my case.  Sometimes you get a little bit of light daily, sometimes
    God rips the veil in two for you instantly.  God is so good!
    
    In Christ,
    Janet
    :-)

    I haven't changed, nope, I haven't. :-)

    I don't know, Nancy, but I believe I have detected some growth.  That's
    a change, isn't it?  :-)
    
    Warm regards,
    Janet

    Been reading a while Janet??? :-)  
    
    Welllll... I know that I experience the Love of God everyday now in my
    life, whereas 2 years ago, I had days of longing to feel loved.
    
    Nancy

Sorry, Janet.  Nancy's tongue was so far in her cheek for that one, I saw
here in the east.

Nancy has changed quite a bit.

MM

    Hi Mark,
    
    I knew that.  That was my all too subtle attempt at mild humor.
    Besides, I only open my mouth to change feet.  ;-)
    
    Janet

    
    The title of this note reminded me of the song "Oh How the Years Go By"
    (Amy Grant)
    
    chorus:
    
    Oh how the years go by
    oh how the love brings tears to my eyes
    all through the changes, the soul never dies
    we fight, we laugh, we cry
    as the years go by
    
    a nutshell description of life!
    
    km