Conference yukon::christian_v7

Could this be "Unity School of Christianity," the mail-order cult?

    
    probably is the Unitarian Universalist Church.  There is nothing
    Christian about it.  In fact every belief of every sort is "tolerated"
    but much time is spent trying to deny Jesus as the Christ.
    
    jeff

It could just as likely be The United Church, a conglomeration of various
formerly Methodist, Congregational, and Presbyterian churches.

YMMV.

/john

 I think they are 2 separate groups, Jeff..The unity Church was started
 by some folks who left the Christian Science movement, I believe.




 Jim

| <<< Note 650.2 by USAT05::BENSON >>>


| probably is the Unitarian Universalist Church. There is nothing Christian 
| about it. In fact every belief of every sort is "tolerated" but much time is 
| spent trying to deny Jesus as the Christ.


	Jeff, I will ask you to back this claim if you would. I am part of the
UU Church, and what you wrote above may be your opinion, but it is not the
reality of the situation.


Glen

   RE: 650.5 <BIGQ::SILVA>

   >| probably is the Unitarian Universalist Church. There is nothing
   >| Christian about it. In fact every belief of every sort is "tolerated"
   >| but much time is spent trying to deny Jesus as the Christ.
   >
   >	Jeff, I will ask you to back this claim if you would. I am part of the
   >UU Church, and what you wrote above may be your opinion, but it is not the
   >reality of the situation.

   Glen,
   
       I'm sure Jeff will easily be able to back his claim.  But, I'd like to
   start with Jesus' words in John 14:6  "I am the way, and the truth, and the
   life; NO ONE comes to the Father BUT through me".  Does the UU faith belief
   that JESUS IS THE ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER?

   Tony

> the Divinity of Christ which has scant Biblical support.

There is much I could disagree with in your response, but this comment in
particular stands out.  I don't even know where to start.  Have you ever read
the book of John?  Or Phillipians?  Or Hebrews?  Or Matthew?  Or........???

Jesus made abundantly clear exactly Who and What He was.  Who but God could
say "Before Abraham was born, I Am." (Jn 8:58)?

Paul

Hello Patricia,

I agree that the Unitarian Universalists should not be disparaged.  We need 
rather to examine and understand the basis of Christianity, and our salvation 
to see where we stand with respect to the truth.

One sentence of yours puzzled me, and it may be that I have lost its 
significance by taking it out of context. It is :

� The only way to God is through our encountering God in our relationships 
� with [each] other.

Where is this indicated in scripture?  I understand that the reason that 
Jesus is the only way to God is because He is the mediator for whom Job 
yearned in Job 9:33, and saw by faith in Job 16:19-21.

   "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man, Christ 
    Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all men - the testimony given in 
    its proper time."
							1 Timothy 2:5-6

Certainly we can see the LORD in each other, but that is always a distorted
image, and can never bring us that righteousness which is our
reconciliation to God. 

					God bless
							Andrew

   re: 650.11 <POWDML::FLANAGAN>

   >There are three quotes in John that appear to say Jesus is God.  There are
   >many many quotes that say Jesus is the son of God and is acting not on his
   >own behalf but on behalf of the father.

       There existing God the Father, does not make God the Son (Jesus) any
   less God.

   Tony

    >Jesus clearly states in the Gospels that whatever one does to any of
    >his, one does to Jesus.
    
    The question is who is one of "His".  In order for this scripture to be
    true then as you stated very clearly in one of your previous notes,
    only those that Jesus dwelling in them would be one of "His".
    
    I think it is safe to say that not everyone has "Jesus" indwelling. 
    
    Nancy
    
    
    

Fascinating, Patricia.  I've never seen algabraic factoring used in spiritual
matters before.

(minister to needy -> minister to Jesus)  AND  (Jesus -> only way to God)

the Jesus cancels out on both sides, and we get:

minister to needy -> only way to God.

Where did Jesus go?  And if this is true, what do we need him for any more?

Paul

First off, and in case anyone is concerned, I don't think we're necessarily
off topic at all.  This note was started by an inquiry as to what Unity
Churches are like.  If that *is* the same church, I would imagine that the
doctrines questioned show where they typically stand.  If anyone feels that 
this is significantly inappropriate here, let me know, and it could be 
moved...

Patricia, you state that our view of who Jesus was depends on a
preconceived idea, which is partially true.  If He had come claiming to be
the Messiah, asserting His divinity, according to the logic of today's
western mind, He would have been making mere words.  His mission was rather
to demonstrate Who He was and is.  It is only when He is either speaking
solely to those whose hearts are prepared, or is called under oath that He
gives explicit statements on this.  The Jewish mind is in no doubt of
exactly what this meant, as they even fall back on it as a [illegal] reason
for condemnation. 

For the western mind to say 'that does not mean the same to us' is to
demonstrate a lack of understanding of the text, mentality and
understanding it was aimed at. 

As far as the 'preconceived' aspect is concerned, if the mind is closed to 
a certain understanding, it will be like shifting a mountain to try to 
persuade it otherwise, and will still not succeed.  However, where a 
veiled truth is revealed, the additinal dimensions of truth make a unity of 
the whole, instead of the disjointed fragments perceived by the piece-meal 
analysis.

�    I don't recall what you are referring to in Mathew or Hebrews.

That was Paul [Weiss], referring to verses like Hebrews 1:3 :
  "The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of 
   His being..."
and Matthew 26: 63-64 :
  "The high priest said to Him, "I charge you under oath by the living God:
   Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God"
  "Yes, it is as you say, Jesus replied, But I say to all of you: In the 
   future you will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand the Mighty 
   One, and coming on the clouds of heaven." 
		- referring to Daniel 7:13  cf also Revelation 1:13, 14:14.

There are also many other types of instance - such as His receipt and
acceptance of worship.  eg in Matthew alone, at a quick skim, there's
2:2,11; 8:2; 9:18; 14:33; 15:25; 20:20; 28:9,17.  In Matthew again we see
that worship which can only be given to God - see Matthew 4:10 - not
even angels are permitted to receive worship (Revelation 19:10,22:8-9).

The clear teaching of scripture as perceived by general Bible-believers is
that Jesus is both fully human and fully God.  Attacks upon this doctrine
have been made on both bases, leading to various divergent groups.  

�    I believe that there is only one God, God the parent.  
The parent of whom?  How is He manifest, or expressed?  

Christian understanding is that the LORD Jesus is God expressed in human 
form, in order to bring salvation to us.  If Jesus were not God, His saving 
work would not reach into the heart of heaven where we need righteousness.

Christian understanding is that the Holy Spirit is God expressed in the
spiritual dimension of humnity, as reaching into our thoughts,
understanding and memories.

Patricia, who do you think Jesus is?  I'm puzzled to imagine...

�    I hold the Gospels of Matthew and Mark as more authoritative than the
�    Pseudo-Pauline leter "Timothy"
Ignoring the human authorship, do you consider the Bible to be the inspired 
Word of God?  Do you consider any part of the Bible to be the inspired 
Word of God? - the gospels, for instance, penned years after they occurred, 
by men other than the LORD Jesus.

Sorry if this sounds like a chatechism or something! - but your last few 
notes jettison so much of the foundation of Christianity that I'm wondering 
where we do have a commonality of belief or understanding to start from.

Just to catch your citation from Matthew 25 :
�    Jesus clearly states in the Gospels that whatever one does to any of
�    his, one does to Jesus.  If you feed the poor, you feed Jesus, If you
�    confort the sick, you comfort Jesus, if you clothe the naked, you
�    clothe Jesus.  The only way to God is through our encounter with Jesus
�    as we encounter the Sick, hungry, poor, prisoner.

You take verse 40, and generalise 'whatever you did for one of the least of
these brothers of mine', and equate that to mankind in general.  However
there are those whom the LORD clearly identifies as 'enemies' (eg Luke
19:27).  Would you include them, as His brothers also? 

						God bless
								Andrew

    Topic 230 entitled JESUS MYTH OR REALITY has some rather extensive 
    notes on the deity of Christ.
    
    Nancy
    
    
    

    
    Colossians 1:19
    
    In Christ dwells the full diety of God.   (NASB)

See note 230.55 for a lengthy scriptural defense of the Deity of Christ

    
    the pointers are good but they won't convince such people.  
    
    regardless of what anyone says, the unitarian universalist organization
    cannot be considered to represent any part of the body of Christ.  i
    think patricia's and glen's beliefs on so many issues makes this rather
    clear though that is not all there is to it.  as an organization there
    are not creeds.  they are committed to believing nothing is sacred
    except one's opinion.
    
    jeff

>    they are committed to believing nothing is sacred except one's opinion.

Amen, Jeff.

Paul

    The Unity Church is neither connected with the Unitarian Universalism
    Association nor the Unification Church.  (The latter not mentioned yet)
    
    Neither is it a cult, as cults tend to be exclusive - having well-defined
    insiders and outsiders.
    

    
    Well now we know what it's not...how about what it is.
    
    Jill

My understanding is that the Unity church is a separate ?denomination? 
which is definitely NOT Christian, not related to UU or other 
denominations.  For some reason, I keep typing demon... when I start 
typing "denomination" in this note.  But, who believes in that stuff?

Cheers


Don Randall

    
    I'm curious Patricia.  Has your studies at all changed your mind 
    on your stance that we are not sinners?  And that we don't need
    salvation?  
    
    Jill
    

 I did some looking around for information on Unity, and found the following
 in "The Handbook of Denominations"  which has been sitting on my bookcase 
 for sometime.. 

 Obviously there are some teachings that are quite different from what
 the Word of God has to say..

 Jim

     The Unity school of Chrisianity..
    


  Founded by Charles Fillmore and his wife Myrtle, both of whom were quite ill, 
  she with Tuberculosis, he with various physical handicaps.  In 1887 they 
  discovered a "mental treatment that is guaranteed to cure every ill that the
  flesh is heir to."  The treatment, or system, is offered today in the Unity
  School of Christianity as a curative in many areas beyond physical healing.

 It is not a church or denomination, but a nonsectarian religious educational
 institution devoted to demonstating that the teachings of Jesus Christ is 
 a practical, seven day a week way of life.."

 Some basic teachings/beliefs:

 . The Bible is used constantly at Unity, but is not considered the sole or
   final authority in faith and practice; man must be in direct, personal
   communion with God and not be dependant upon such secondary sources as
   the Scriptures 
 
 . Unity insists it is not a church.."the true church is a state of conscious-
   ness in man"


 .whatever man wants he can have by voicing his desire in the right way into the
  Universal Mind.

 .All thought goes back to God, who is "principle, Law, Being, Mind, Spirit, all
  Good omnipotent, omniscient, unchangeable,creator, Father, Cause and Source
  of all that is.

 .Trinity..The Father is the Principle, the Son is that principle revealed
  in a creative plan.l  The Holy Spirit is the executive power of both Father
  and Son carrying out the creative plan

 .Jesus Christ is Spritiual man...the direct offspring of Divine Mind, God'
  idea of perfect man

 .Man is a son of God filled with the Christ consciousness

 .Salvation is the attainment of that true spiritual body which replaces
  the physical body when man becomes like Christ.  The transformation takes 
  place not in any hereafter but "here in this earth" through a series of
  reincarnations and regenerations.

 .Man suffers no final death but only changes into increasingly better states
  until he becomes like Christ. All men (presumably mankind..jh) will have
  this experience.

 In an earlier reply I stated that Unity was started by folks whoh left
 the Christian Science Church..not quite true..The Fillmores (founders of
 Unity) at one time attended a Church of Christ Scientist, but did not
 become part of the movment.



 Jim

I apologize, Patricia.  You're right, my emphatic agreement with that
statement did cross the line into becoming more insulting than helpful.  Yet
I will not apologize for the thought behind it, that too often too many
people put too high an emphasis on our personal opinions rather than on an
eternal truth that does not change.

I find it so bizarre to be on the side of this discussion that I am now on. 
You may not believe it, Patricia, but a few scant years ago I was very much
on your side of the fence.  I haven't gone back and looked recently, but
looking in some of the archived versions of CHRISTIAN (like 2 or 3 versions
back), many of my notes would sound just like yours, expressing dismay over
the way that people felt such a need to tell me that I was wrong.

And here I am a few years later, doing exactly the same thing.  I'm saying
this not to put forth a holier-than-thou "I used to believe as you do, but
I'm wiser now" sort of put-down.  I wouldn't be so condescending.  I'm only
mentioning it to note that I don't reject the sort of tolerance you espouse
out of ignorance, but from a place of fully understanding it.

I'm not "eager to insult the faith of another."  I'm not out to insult, I'm
not out to attack, though it may seem so at times.  But as I learn more of
the God of the Hebrews and the God revealed in Jesus, I discover that He is
very jealous of the right to determine what is true.  He has revealed Himself
and His truth to us through the nation of Israel and through Jesus, and as
the history recorded by the Bible abundantly shows, He has no "tolerance" for
our redefining truth to suit ourselves.

One of the most popular faiths today, which goes by many names, is the faith
that God is tolerance - tolerance of anything.  A quote that I would actually
be more in agreement with than Jeff's "believing nothing is sacred except
one's opinion" would be "believing nothing is sacred except ANY opinion."

Except, of course, the opinion that Jesus is the only way to God.

The God of tolerance and of acceptance of all forms of belief that you
espouse doesn't at all match the God found in the Bible.  And I will continue
to point that out, though I will seek to do so more gently.

Paul

| <<< Note 650.20 by USAT05::BENSON "dreaming of dierdre" >>>


| regardless of what anyone says, the unitarian universalist organization cannot
| be considered to represent any part of the body of Christ. 

	Really Jeff? Then what would you consider them? What reasons would you
give to back your claim????

| i think patricia's and glen's beliefs on so many issues makes this rather 
| clear though that is not all there is to it.  

	You amaze me Jeff. Many would believe a lot of Christians are hateful
bigoted people. How about offering proof to back your claim. Making a claim is
easy, but backing it is something totally different. The claim I just made is
not a true one, as if one is like the description, then they aren't Christian. 

| as an organization there are not creeds. they are committed to believing 
| nothing is sacred except one's opinion.

	Another CLASSIC falsehood said by Jeff Benson. I would like to to back
your claim, or retract it. I REFUSE to allow you or anybody else to slam my
religion when you can't prove a thing. I'm VERY serious about this.


Glen

Glen Silva has a multi-year history in this conference of subtly or openly
disparaging the validity of God's Word and the values built upon His Word.
Thousands upon thousands of lines of notes have been devoted to defending
Biblical faith from his seemingly gentle but doggedly persistent undermining
of its truth and authority.  As Glen shows no signs of change, this defense
only serves as a further platform upon which he continues to build his case
for his 'alternative' gospel.

In light of Titus 3:9-10, I encourage the readers of this file to simply not
respond any more to Glen's divisive disagreement with those who depend on
God's Word.  If his comments just fall on dead air, perhaps they will finally
stop.

Paul

"But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels
about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.  Warn a divisive
person once, and then warn him a second time.  After that, have nothing to do
with him."
                                                        Titus 3:9-10, NIV

 .30 and .31 set hidden pending moderator discussion



 Jim Co mod

Thank you for the statement of your belief, Patricia!  Somewhere on the way
I've lost whether you do call this Christian or not (forgive me - no
offence intended!).  Have you any basis to root it into, other than your 
personal opinion?  eg you say 
� I came to Goddess/God not through Bible study but through encountering
� myself and my humanity.
Is this purely personal and experiential, or is there any element of stable
authority you can point to?  Anything on a par with the Bible, upon which 
this conference is based, and which you inply you reject as an authority?

Presumably as you are concerned at a personal impression of personalities 
and a personal evaluation of the worth of particular Biblical records, you 
do not accept the Bible as divinely inspired.  I suppose it would be 
impossible for you to accept the Bible if you do not accept that man's
greatest need is in dealing with his fallen state before God.... :
� ...participants in the "Original Blessing" and not "Original Sin".

As the basis of this conference lies in the acceptance of the Bible as 
the inspired, revealed truth of God, can you relate your beliefs 
individually to this, and maybe in examining them one by one we can come to 
some sort of conclusion?  Otherwise this become a rootless forum of 
haphazard opinions, offered as validly as fairy tales....  If this were a 
conference 'for religious or spiritual ideas or opinions', such might be 
relevant, but the principle behind us is the Bible, which gives us a common 
ground of belief, so we need that as a stargin point for whatever people 
propose, in order for us to have a commonly understood starting point.

						God bless
								Andrew

Hi Patricia,

I'm not sure how this discussion relates to this note or to this conference.  
I've lost track of whether yours is actually the belief of the Unity church 
that the original query concerned?
If you want to query how or why we take the Bible as a basis, that would be 
a valid topic (though not under this particular note!).

However, I continue!
You've clarified that your position is purely personal/individual and
experiential.  We all have a strong personal and experiential aspect to our 
spiritual life, but as that is subjective and prone to interference from 
other forces, it is unreliable as a basis (even for a Christian) -
certainly as common grounds for faith, so it is necessary to go back to
divine authority to establish the realities of our being, function and
destiny.  Both God and eternity lie outside the temporal limitations our
physical state is confined in. 

�    Jesus did not need to call himself a Christian and neither do I. 
Is this a red herring?  Jesus was not a Christian; He was - is - Christ, 
the leader.  'Christ-ians' are His followers.  You'll be aware that this 
name was only given to His followers at Antioch, after His death...

� What is mysterious to me is that there is  full biblical support for my
� beliefs. 
Mysterious to me also! ;-).  You want examples ... :

�    We come to believe that we can and want to be connected to that divine
�    spark.  We accept the Grace that is from Goddess/God and discover
Here you seem to imply that everyone comes to salvation; that none are 
Christ's enemies.  As if it doesn't matter what you believe or how you 
live.

�    I believe that Salvation is accepting the Grace that is from
�    Goddess/God and connecting with that Divine Spark that Goddess/God
�    created in each one of us.
This reads as if you are redefining the Biblical salvation to exclude sin,
the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, and repentance.
You close that note by saying :
� I don't know where you have interpreted in any of my writings where I
� ever felt that we were not sinners and not in the need for salvation.
Yet if you felt that it was the greatest need of mankind to repent and 
receive salvation, you would not play down its expression by emphasising 
how good we might be.  If a blind person is driving a car towards a cliff
edge, you don't just distract them by commenting how comfortable the seats 
are; you get them steering the right way first, before it's too late.   It 
*can* be too late.

� I came to Goddess/God not through Bible study but through encountering
� myself and my humanity.
This implies that you found god within yourself, in contradistinction to 
the God we find in the Bible?

� And then I picture a Wise woman above me smiling and gently encouraging me
� onward. 
???

You mention a number of titles for Jesus, in .24, but I'm not sure if that 
note was meant to imply that you do not believe that Jesus is God, 
sacrificed for our sins?  Or that He is the only way to God?  I find these 
points clearly emphasisied in the Bible

I'm sorry if we seem in any way to disparage you.  We also believe that you 
are made in the image of God!

								Andrew

I don't have time to respond to all of what you've said, Patricia.  Suffice
to say that though it all sounds great and loving and wonderful, deception
often hides in those clothes.

I looked at Romans 5.  It does in fact say, in verse 18, "just as the result
of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act
of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men."  Let's
ignore for a moment that taking this verse out of the context of the whole
Bible ignores the many passages that speak of judgement and separation,
including many direct quotes of Jesus.  The context of the whole Bible isn't
necessary in this case.  To say that this verse supports universal salvation
is out of context even in the chapter from which you quote it.

The thread of this thought begins with verse 12; "just as sin entered the
world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to
all men, becase all sinned..."  Note that "ALL" is used here to speak of sin
being imputed to us.

The thought continues in verse 15 "For if many died by the trespass of the
one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of
the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!"  Note that "MANY" is used
here to speak of salvation being imputed to us.  Not "ALL", "MANY."

But the most telling verse is the one immediately preceding the one you
quote, verse 17 (emphasis added)  "For if, by the tresspass of one man, death
reigned through that one man, how much more will THOSE WHO RECEIVE GOD'S
ABUNDANT PROVISION OF GRACE AND THE GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS reign in life
through the one man, Jesus Christ."

Even only in the context of this paragraph, there is no basis for asserting
that salvation is provided to all.  In light of verse 17, the only reasonable
interpretation of verse 18 is that salvation is AVAILABLE to all.


You know, I used to think that the Israelites were horribly evil people.  God
revealed Himself to them, and they kept worshipping and following other gods.
But I've come to see that they are just like us.  I'm sure, to them at the
time, following the Baals seemed logical and wonderful and loving and nice.
Only it went directly counter to what God had told them about Himself, it
went directly counter to what He told them to do, it went directly counter to
how He told them to follow Him.  I'm sure that they convinced themselves that
they really were doing the best thing, that God would be pleased with the way
that they were seeking to become better people.  The Baals made more sense,
they didn't like some of the parts of what God had said about Himself, so
they ignored them.

The result was repeated judgement and ultimately exile.

The theology that you present, Patricia, is no different in essence.  It has
aspects of being logical and loving and nice.  I believed much as you do for
a long time, seduced by that niceness.  Only it runs directly counter to much
of how God told us to relate to Him, and as such will ultimately have
disastrous consequences.

You're right, Patricia, that there is a divine spark within us.  And you're
right that the essence of faith is to fan that spark into flame.  But I
believe that there are a lot of other sparks within us also, and some of
those sparks do a pretty convincing job of masquerading as the divine spark. 
Without the truth of God's revelation to guide us, there's no telling what
spark we're blowing on.

Paul

    RE:  .32
    
    My question originated from our days together in C-P when you felt that
    I was not only self-abusive, but abusive to you for saying we are all
    sinners.  You said that we may make mistakes, but we are not sinners.
    You were quite upset if I recall and wouldn't even acknowledge me me
    for approximately 2 years.
    
    I would agree that there is something that God has placed within each
    person to let them know that He is there and that He wants a
    relationship with them.  Romans talks of this.  You want to call it a
    divine spark, I'm okay with that.  However salvation isn't finding that
    spark, God requires a response.  Salvation is the acceptance of the
    forgiveness Christ bought on the cross for our sins.  Being aware of
    that divine spark does you no good if you can't acknowledge that "the
    addictions, the pride, the arrogance, materialistic drives, need for
    power, control" are sins that we put in our lives and we act on and
    that we are responsibility for.  There is a consequence for sin, a
    consequence everyone faces (regardless of whether they choose to take
    responsibility for their sin), but Christ paid the price of sin for
    those who believe in their heart and confess with their mouths that
    Jesus Christ is Lord.  This concept that we can create ourselves anew
    is ludicrous.  God is the one at work making us into new creations when
    we become christians.  Sin blocked us from the "original blessings"
    that God had bestowed on mankind and only He could provide a way back. 
    Let me ask you...what happens to those that deny that spark?  Who have
    buried it so deep that they no longer recognize their Creator to whom
    they owe their life?
             
    RE: .36
    It truly saddens me to see your statement that "I'm not a Christian and
    why am I struggling with trying to define myself within a community
    that clearly does not want me..."  This is simply not true Patricia. 
    But speaking for myself.  I believe you've bought into a great deal of
    lies that are keeping you from the truth and I believe it's because
    you've had a great deal of pain in your life and your pain has warped
    the way you look at things.  But I can honestly say that I would be
    thrilled someday to call you my sister in Christ.
       
    RE:  .38
    
    But how does the Spirit live in you?  I caution you Patricia.  You are
    taking God's Word out of context (way out).  I think Paul wrote several
    excellent notes on this so I won't go into details.  However I will say
    that Patricia, like you I too am thankful that we're women.  But to
    point out lady wisdom in Proverbs 8 to taut the virtues of womanhood is
    somewhat deceptive.  Why not be completely forthcoming and also point
    out Proverbs 9 and Woman Folly!  Interestingly enough both Lady Wisdom
    and Woman Folly call to the same people.  Even their dialogue is
    deceptively similar. But different endings come to the people who
    attend their dinners.  Well worth a study.  I'm just starting a
    Proverbs study.
    
    Jill

John 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, 
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 


Note that the above verse indicates that those who believe in Him should
NOT perish...clearly there are those who WILL perish..




Jim

RE:         <<< Note 650.40 by POWDML::FLANAGAN "I feel therefore I am" >>>

       
   > What if you are the one who is mixed up?  
    

     And what if it is YOU who are mixed up?




    Jim

>    What if you are the one who is mixed up?  

The very question that led me to put more trust in the Word.  You are
entirely correct, I might be totally wrong.  Without SOMETHING concrete to
compare against, we have absolutely no way to tell.  We are entirely at the
mercy of whatever anyone thinks God is telling them, or worse, what they may
SAY they think God is telling them.  Historically, human beings have done an
absolutely horrible job at accurately discerning the voice of God within
them.  And there are people out there who are seeking to deliberately
deceive.  Regardless of what the real truth is, many, many millions of people
are deceived today, yet are totally convinced that they are following God.

If we base our theology and our view of truth solely on our experience, we
will have no basis for unity, since our experiences are all different.  If we
interpret life, the Bible, history, to conform to our experience, we are
subject to every wind of fad, fancy, and culture.

I believe that God has provided us with a guidebook in the Bible.  And I
believe that we have to be very careful not to make the opposite error - not
to make the new covenant into the old covenant-book 2 - not to make finding
God into some ritualistic adherence to laws.  That is dry, dusty, and dead.
We must experience God, we must be in true and real relationship to Him.  The
Bible is our guide to tell us when we are on the right track.  It is a map
for our journey, but it is not the journey.  Sitting in a dusty room studying
the map will bring us no closer to our destination.  Knowing every twist and
turn of the path on the map, yet not travelling that path, avails us nothing.
That was the error of the Pharisees, and the error of many today.  It's
probably an error you think I'm falling into, though I'm very aware of that
danger and desparately seeking to avoid it.

Yet just as senseless as staying at home with the map, is striking off on our
own cross-country without it, trusting to our natural sense of direction. 
There are some turnings of the correct path that our natural sense will never
discover.  There are many paths that look wonderful, joyous, going through
fields of flowers, that lead down to death.

You are striking off on your own, Patricia, taking such bits from the map as
seem good to you and ignoring other parts.  And it seems that you're doing
quite a good job of going in the generally correct direction, even without
the map.  But looking at the map, the path which you are following, though it
seems the better path now, has deep pits and ravines ahead, in which many a
traveller has been lost forever.

I wish you Godspeed, and I pray that you find your way to the Celestial City.
As for me, I will continue to guide my way according to the map.

Paul

      Hi,
    
        Just a quickie from the guy who lies on the fringe cause he
        believes we are delivered from sin and sin alone.  :-)
    
        I don't believe sin is imputed to us.  Light is life and dark-
        ness is condemnation.  Its spiritual reality.  What I believe 
        Romans 5 is saying is that the legacy that Adam left to all
        of mankind is darkness.  Left alone, we are condemned.
    
        The legacy Christ offers to all mankind is light, freely given.
        He gave all the saving light there needs to be given.  If we
        but receive what is already ours, the darkness is gone and His
        love indwells the soul.  And that love is what saves us by
        restoring our hearts from sin to His likeness.
    
        Darkness: the legacy of Adam to mankind.  Thus is condemnation.
    
        Light: the legacy of Christ to mankind.  Thus is justification.
    
        But, that light, though legally ours (it has been given to us), is
        ineffective unless received.
    
                                                   Tony
      

	Great note Tony!

    My father gave us a copy of the following.  I believe it comes from the
    daily devotional 'Our Daily Bread' and it goes along with the
    discussion on hearing God and interpreting His word correctly.  
    This could also be posted in note 652.
    
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Wednesday, December 28    title:  Dangerous Distortions
    
    "Untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction..."
    (2 Peter 3:16)  [It also suggests reading 2 Peter 3:9 - 18]
    
    
    An art enthusiast displayed on the walls of his office a collection of
    etchings, including one of the Leaning Tower of Pisa.  Every morning he
    noticed it was crooked, so he straightened it.  Finally one evening he
    asked the cleaning woman if she was responsible for moving the picture
    each night.  "Why yes," she said, "I have to hang it crooked to make
    the tower straight!"
    
    In a similar way, some people have the habit of twisting the Scriptures
    to make their imperfect lives look better or to justify their own
    opinions.  The apostle Peter warned his readers about the kind of
    people who do not approach God's Word with honest motives and respect
    for its authority, and who distort its message.  They will incur God's
    judgment (2 Peter 3:16-17).
    
    Unless we review the Bible prayerfully and humbly, we may get a wrong
    message and be drawn away from our steadfastness in Christ.  God gave
    us His Word as a light to guide our steps.  If we obey it each day, we
    will find it to be an unfailing source of strength and truth.
    
    Distorting the meaning of the Word of God too fit our preconceived
    ideas is a dangerous practice and a terrible sin.  Let's be careful how
    we read and interpret the Bible. - HGB (the author)
    
    		O send Thy Spirit, Lord, now unto me
    		That He may touch my eyes and make me see;
    		Show me the truth concealed within Thy Word,
    		And in Thy Book revealed I see Thee, Lord. - Groves
    
    		WE MUST ALIGN OURSELVES WITH THE BIBLE,
    		NEVER THE BIBLE WITH OURSELVES.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------