Conference yukon::christian_v7

    
    Do not let anything get in between you and your wife. Churches come and
    go. People come and go.  Once your wife has come into your life don't
    ever let her go.  In other words she should be the most important. 
    Some would disagree with me but it is little consulation to have done
    what we "think" is "Right" when we are sitting there alone.

    Jack,
    
    I'd visit other churches with your wife begging for God to go and
    prepare a place for you.  And if there are no mansions [church *home*]
    out there, then stay where you are.
    
    What motiviates your current Pastor.  Is *he* a problem?  Are you
    aligned doctrinally?  Do you feel you are growing spiritually where you
    are?  
    
    Satan uses the candles to distract us from the Light.
    
    Love in Him,
    Nancy
    

    Our current Pastor is actually a great man with a gentle spirit.  He
    strikes me as somebody who is as objective as he should be.  I believe
    he is motivated by the Spirit and he follows the scriptural outline for
    good pastoring.
    
    Another twist to this is that our church is actually in another town
    and hence we are not a part of the normal community.  This too may have
    something to do with it as we are kind of outsiders.  That's the way
    these little New England towns are at times.
    
    In Christ,
    
    -Jack

    I vote for your finding a church where both you and michelle are
    comfortable.  THere are lots of churches.  You don't need to stay in
    one that has dysfunctional elements that will not be corrected.
    
    (I could find the location of the nearest UU church if you are
    interested.)   (:-).
    
                                    Patricia.

    
    Ah, your in New England, that explains everything. 
    

    Jack,

    God has always let me know when I'm where I need to be.  When we first
    moved to Colorado Springs, we tried a church within a block of our new
    house... things didn't "click", though I believe the people there loved
    God and worshiped in their own way.  The next church we tried I KNEW
    that is where God wanted us after the first service we attended, and we
    still are there after 5+ years.

    (Bear-in-mind that being where you should be doesn't always mean you're
    "comfortable".  It can be painful at times letting God reveal areas in
    our lives that need working on, so much the better when you have a
    pastoral staff and congregation that can do so in love, and not be
    blind to their own short-comings.)

    In younger, less-wise times I've spent fruitless energy trying to
    "mold" a church into what I needed, because of course I was right about
    how things should be done... 8)  I truly, truly believe if you
    prayerfully seek God's will and direction in this matter, he will lead
    you and your family to where you need to be, for this time in your
    lives.

    God Bless,

    John

I currently attend a start-up church but have my membership in another
church which is not in my home town.  Politics is anywhere there are more
than one person in a gathering.  The operative question you and your
wife should ask yourself is "why are you there?"  Better yet, "why are 
you here?" since no matter where you go, you'll always be here.

Consider that God needs some people in politically stubborn places to
balance things out a bit, and where patience and persistence may end 
up being the salvation of people who play church.  On the other hand,
you may indeed be receiving a call to move on.

I'm not in my church because it is convenient, or because the worship style
is better than my home church.  I am there to ensure that it succeeds because
it is part of my calling.  Laymen have callings every bit as much as the 
Pastor, albeit to do and be something different than the pastor.  

I'm not in my church by choice, but by God's direction and impression that
I am right where I ought to be at the proper place and time.  It is not the
way i would have written the story, but I can vouch that there is much joy
is obedience to God and great satisfaction in knowing that I am doing what
He's called me to do.

I have challenged my Sunday School classes to examine why they come to 
church - for the fellowship?  Well, yes, but this isn't the primary reason;
at least it shouldn't be.  For the Biblical education?  Sure.  but not the
primary reason.  

Priorities are EXTREMELY important - no, they are imperative to being "here"
for the right reasons.  If you are "here" for anything but the right reasons,
then there is no legitimate reason to be here.

The church has five functions (give or take depending on who's taught what).
(1) Worship, (2) Evangelism, (3) Education, (4) Fellowship, and (5) Service.
#2 and $5 have an outward focus.  #3 and #4 have an inward focus.  But #1
has an upward focus.  Worship should be an end in itself, too, and not a means
to an end.  In other words, you don't worship to get something or to feel 
good.  You can't bargain with God and this isn't something to whip up a
temporary high.  The results of worship are incidentals of worship - why?
Because God is worthy, no matter what.  He is worthy whether you feel good
or not, and whether you get something or you don't.  

Bob Poland makes a good point about your wife; you two need to be in agreement.
It is natural to find disagreement as long as you both understand that you
are just not seeing the way the other is, but it doesn't change your love
for each other one smidgen, and the goal is coming to an agreement through
the Lord's wisdom and direction.  Ask your wife and yourself, "why does
God want me here?"  "If He doesn't want me here, then which direction should
I go?"  If God wants to move you, and you're seeking His mind in the matter,
He will move you, even if He does so without you realizing that it is happening
until it happens.  That's the way it happened to me with becoming an integral
part in starting this new church in Windham, NH.  

Mark

    
    Hi Jack!
    
    Always sorry to hear about problems in the church.  I'd have to back
    up Mark and agree that God sometimes puts us in situation we don't 
    necessarily like being in.  If there are people in the church who
    are interfering with God's work out of there own selfishness, I 
    think God's people need to put a stop to it.  If the problem is 
    within our own hearts, we need to not only pray for a spirit of
    forgiveness but we need to be lifting these people up in prayer
    because they need to let go of their control or what place does
    God have in their lives?  While in our humanity it may look like
    things will never change, God is indeed in ultimate control and 
    He can change what seems to us to be unchangeable.  
    
    Only you and your wife can know what God is laying on your heart.
    I only caution you against taking the easy way out.  So many people
    church hop nowadays that they get into a pattern of it.  If a church 
    isn't what they want it to be, they just leave and find another.  How 
    can anyone contribute and make difference if they are always on the 
    run?  Not that I don't think there are times when we need to move on, 
    but it should God influencing us to make that move and not people.  
    
    God bless you and give you wisdom Jack.  
    
    Jill

	Jack,

	We were in a similar situation a little over a year ago.

	Actually, we went through it twice!

	It was Jamie who first felt the nudge to leave.  I really
	struggled, because when we initially began to attend that church,
	we had such *strong* confirmation that that was where he wanted
	us just then.  This was just before Jamie's first craniotomy,
	and the spiritual wisdom that we gained at that church truly
	helped us survive that battle.  I know in my heart that before
	I entered that church, I was not prepared for the trial ahead.
	Within weeks, I was so armed for battle that there was no way
	we could not survive!!

	However, after Jamie's second surgery, he began to be troubled
	by some things going on in the church.  In retrospect, I have
	to say that I saw them, too, but so desperately wanted to stay
	(mostly because of the deep affection I felt for the pastors
	there), that I made excuses.  I finally agreed to look around,
	but we just could not find the right home.  After several months
	of on-and-off Sunday attendance here and there, we returned to
	that church.  We were welcomed back with open arms, but suddenly,
	I did not feel right.  I began to really see the things that
	had disturbed Jamie, and could not longer make excuses.  I was
	told once to discuss it with the pastors, and that if God had
	not told the *pastors* it was time for us to move on, then perhaps
	we were not really hearing from God.  Considering that one of
	the pastors was now essentially the problem, this advice left
	me a bit cold.  

	So, to make a long story yet longer ;-), I had to face the fact that
	Jamie had been right, and that my efforts to cling to the first
	real church home I'd ever had were selfish.  I prayed long and hard, and
	felt the confirmation from God to move on.

	We re-visited a church that we had been to several times, and suddenly,
	it felt like home.  I truly believe that God had planned where we
	should be, leading us to the first church to arm us for battle, and
	the second for balance.  I'm sure he would have liked to move us
	to the second church sooner, but I do have a mild stubborn streak ;-)

	All that said, I agree with Bob, that you and your wife need to
	come into agreement.  When Jamie and I were going through it, I
	stood before God and asked Him to unite us on this matter, and told
	Him that my heart was yielded to Him, and that I would follow His
	lead.  Of course, I just *knew* it was Jamie he was going to have
	to change ;-);-);-)  and of course, God corrected me!

	BTW, I was more active in that church than Jamie, but not for his lack
	of trying (another story altogether).

	God Bless, and I will keep you in prayer.

	Karen

Hello Jack, 

You identify the source of the problem as lying in one specific (if
extensive) family.  This family is apparently expressing a wrong spirit,
conciously or subconsiously.  The rest of the church, including
specifically, the pastor, are struggling to express the LORD in the
fellowship context.  Were all those who find the situation uncomfortable to
leave, the pastor would be the only one remaining as a misfit.  As it is,
he has certain stalwarts, faithful members who care to work with him for
the LORD, upon whom he can rely in the harvest field.

God has placed you and Michele there.  You are salt and light, not only to
unbelievers, but also amongst the flock.  The LORD has entrusted you with a
difficult, uncomfortable task.  Would you have it easier?  He faced the
cross for you.  Are you asking to be a part of the problem, or a part of
the answer, as far as your home fellowship is concerned?

I can give you tweo examples from my personal experience.  In a church 
we attended, some 20 years ago, the pastor preached in a way I hadn't 
heard before.  It really seemed to open up a new dimension of the Word to 
my heart, and I loved it (Ros appreciated it too).  I would have liked to 
have discussed it with the pastor a lot more, but he was always busy with 
the deacons, and I knew that my puny observations were as nothing compared 
to the weighty words of wisdom they would be exchanging, so I largely 
kept silent.  That pastor fell ill with cancer, and shortly after we left
that neighbourhood, he died.  I later found out that he had a very rough 
ride from the deacons, who confronted him right down to his personal way 
of life (eg, castigating him for possessing a television, which may or may
not be good, but the personal manner of the opposition most certainly was
not good).  I now suspect that talking about the Word might actually have
been a relief from the pearls of wisdom those deacons let drop... 

The other experience is in my current position.  My view is radically
different from the accepted view of my church (and pastor) in certain
specific areas.  However, if I went where everyone belived as I do, it
would merely duplicate the function.  I can serve where I am, as I am.  I
have questioned this from time to time, but the answer so far has always
been to stay.  I don't say it always will be, but it has been so far. 

Ask yourself -
	� Who will fulfil my task if I leave
Ask the LORD -
	� Am I of service here
	� What lesson(s) will I still need to learn, maybe in a harder way, 
	  if I step out of this situation
	� Where can I serve more fruitfully

Remember, if the current situation is to change, it will take dedicated 
service before the LORD.  Prayer and fasting.  Commitment.

  "This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey 
   God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus"
				Revelation 14:12 (& 13:10)

Do you want to be a part of this victory, releasing God's people from a
bondage, or do you just want to sit comfortable?  Do you love the people
God has put you amongst enough to suffer for and with them, or do you just
want to find another lot of people where 'love' is not so demanding? 

To move on without carefully considering this would leave you with a task 
unfinished.  An emptiness where you previously were filling a part of the 
gap (Ezekiel 22:30).

I didn't set out to be as definitive as that, but this was what came to me
in writing.  Earlier replies have stressed the obvious consideration that
you and Michele must be in agreement to commit to the course you decide
upon.  I merely enter the above as something you need to be aware of in
your deliberations and prayer together.  It's a tough decision bro, but
I've seen too many people move on in haste, because they were uncomfortable
with some aspect of a church.  The relationship suffered totally - most
then grow to feel that they have to condemn everything about the church
they left.  The last state is worst than the first, though I wouldn't say
that the quotation was at all a general analogy! ;-} 

Let us know how this develops.  I'll be praying for you, and for this as a 
family decision, but also for your church, the dominating family, and your
pastor who carries the responsibility in the middle.  Have you spoken to 
him about this? - not as 'his responsibility to deal with and put right', 
but as one who is supporting him in prayer, and with your love?  I'm sure 
you do, but felt I should stress it here...

					God bless, Jack
								Andrew

I didn't see Karen's reply until after I'd entered mine, and had to laugh.... 
Jack, doesn't it underline that we need to hear from God concerning each 
specific case!  For Karen, it was right to move - but not until both had 
been brought to a specific place of awareness.  If Jamey had insisted on 
moving as soon as he was aware of a problem, Karen would have felt very 
uncomfortable, maybe for years, in the new church.  As it was, the LORD 
exercised a bit of patience in Jamey, in bringing them to the right place
at the right time.  'The right time' is as important as the right place.  
So many scriptures emphasise that - starting from Galatians 4:4 ....

						God bless
								Andrew

>uncomfortable, maybe for years, in the new church.  As it was, the LORD 
>exercised a bit of patience in Jamey,

	Thanks, Andrew.  This line made *me* laugh!!!

	(I often tease Jamie about a need for patience...)

    My husband and I find ourselves in a similar situation....I was the
    first to 'see' things that I felt were not right in our church...I told
    my husband; he didn't see it.  Several months passed, God opened his
    eyes to understand what I had said.  We approached the pastor on two
    occasions (the last time being several months ago) with our concerns.  
    We feel we got alot of lip service; not much has changed.  What do you
    do when it's the PASTOR who has control issues?  What do you do when
    you feel the pastor doesn't respect women? (intellectually)  The only
    thing we have come to is prayer: that God would give him eyes to see
    and ears to hear.  We are in the process of trying to find a new church.
    
    I would like to print off all the replies in this note.  Is there a way
    to do this in batch form or must I do it individually?  I've not
    printed from notes before - I have a PC by which I access notes through
    the VT320 emulator.  Any directions are appreciated.
    
    Karen  

NOTES>  EXTRACT church.notes 647.*

That will create a file in your top level directory, which you can print.

MM

    About 4 years ago I had concerns about my Pastor's "thoughts" about
    human behavior.  I felt at the time that he spent too much time in
    making sure all of us KNEW we were sinners versus on the restoration.  
    
    I really felt oppressed and unable to even serve because this "sinner"
    was worse than everyone else. :-)
    
    I began to get help through different venues with my "self image" in
    the "sight of God".  Soon I found myself praying that God would open my
    Pastor's eyes to the many wounded hearts that sat in his pews each
    service.  It took some time [and btw, I never tried to talk bad about
    my Pastor to any other church members], but one service I remember my
    ears, my eyes, my feelings were all aglow at what I was hearing.  He'd
    actually recognized that oftimes a person needs help in healing the
    wounds from a broken heart, that many were victims to someone elses
    sin.
    
    My Pastor is growing too...

I did this too.  We were in a church in LA that I had ties to, which my 
wife wanted to leave.  We never resolved it - only when we moved to 
Seattle and looked for churches with a fresh start did we find one we both 
are excited about.  

The key question, is what is God doing?  Is He doing something at that 
church, that you need to be a part of?  Are people coming to the Lord?  
Is the worship great?  Are people growing?  Are you called to join in?  
Or, is the situation you described preventing the church from doing what 
God would have the church do?  If so, you should get out.  There is no 
magic in a church - if it serves God, and is bearing fruit, it should be 
prospering.  If not, the question is, is God using you to help turn it 
around?  If not, shake the dust from your feet...

Where in New England?  I had a friend move there to pastor a start up 
church - I'll vouch for his vision...

Regards

Don Randall

    update....
    
    My husband (Steve) and I along with three others from our church spoke
    with our pastor last week.....all of us see the same things as 'issues'
    (i.e. negative influences) for our church.  The pastor seemed to accept
    and/or agree with some of what we had to say, but did not agree/commit
    to TRY to change these things (most are issues that go back directly to
    him.)
    
    Last evening, Steve and I visited with my parents and told them about
    the outcome of the meeting (they know the history behind the meeting
    and do not attend the same church.)  My father gave us what I thought
    was a very good suggestion.  He said we should meet with the others
    (that were there when we met with the pastor), write down all the
    things that we saw as being the problems and all commit to prayer on 
    these things and for the pastor for a 2 - 3 month period  (He didn't
    feel anything less was giving the Lord a chance to work in the pastors
    life and see a measurable amount of change - of course the Lord can 
    work in a moment, but we are humans, afterall :-) ).  If we did not 
    see any signs of growth or change, then we should probably be looking
    for a new church.  
    
    I know personally that I have not been very faithful in bringing these
    concerns before the Lord, although I know that it is only the Lord that
    can open the pastor's eyes and bring about change.
    
    We have not had the chance to speak to the others about this, but Steve
    and I feel as if it is something we should do.  If pray and see change,
    we'll know the Lord moved and probably still wants us there; if we pray
    and nothing changes, we'll know we've done all we can do, it's in His
    hands and it's time to move on.
    
    Karen

Karen,
  What a wise father you have.  An excellent suggestion.

Mark

    re: last
    
    yes, it is such a blessing to have godly parents.  Something I took for
    granted (sometimes even resented) growing up, but now wished I would
    have appreciated more then.  the foolishness of youth......
    
    Karen