Conference yukon::christian_v7

    Did you have a question, or were just making a statement?  I personally
    don't see anything wrong with going into notes on your break, or after
    hours.  And I certainly don't see anything sick about it.  Thats going
    a bit far in my opinion.  Now, if your in notes the entire time your at
    work, that would possibly be construed (?) as abusing company time I
    suppose.  
    
    dlh

    	You have to understand that this is an international network. 
    	When you are working at your business day, Australia is at
    	home, and those folks are quite likely doing their noting on
    	their own time, perhaps dialed in from home.
    
    	Regarding your "characteristics" list:
    
>	- They make _no_ meaningful impact for the Corporation~?!
    
    	Your sources for this claim?
    
>	- They spend more time in notes than actually working~?!
    
    	Sources?
    
>	- They have _nothing_ better to do, and that is _all_ they do?!
    
    	Sources?
    
>	- You just cannot shut them up, - so it ain't worth trying to?!
    
    	Please don't get the impression that I want you to shut up!  :^)
               
    ---------
    
    	We see entries like this from time to time.  Some day people will
    	realize that chit-chat in notes is little different from chit-
    	chat around the water cooler.

    Another comment to make here is... There are many who have windowing
    workstations. Several things can happen at any given time. The nature
    of some employees work is such there are some gaps between customer
    call or what ever.... Notes keeps me at my desk rather than wondering
    around, missing the next customer call....
    
    Not appologizing for noting, just stating some facts.!
    
    

    Bob, it's obvious that the basenoter doesn't know much about technology
    or the vastly different types of jobs in DEC.

Greg,

    Sorry.  I don't find this a very helpful approach.  Maybe some of the 
'characteristics' bite me too hard ;-}.  The attraction here for me is the 
fellowship.  I know that when I pop into CHRISTIAN, I - for the most part - 
find like minded people, who love the LORD.  That in itself is so 
refreshing that it motivates me and spurs me on in the rest of my work.  We 
differ in  a lot of peripherals, but the reason we choose to communicate 
here is because Jesus is dear to us.  His blood, and what it has done in 
our lives is more precious than physical life itself, and the friendships 
and kin-ships recognised here go beyond life at digital, beyond physical 
life on this mortal earth.  Some of us tend to knock corners off each other 
a bit in some areas; we accept that, and learning to live gently with each 
other is a part of learning to be like our LORD and Master.  I'm not 
advocating any compromise on vbital concerns of our faith.  Some of us 
differ very close to the bone in this area, and that's when things hot up 
some.  Because they matter.  But it's when things are at their hottest, that 
we have to stop and ask ourselves just how far we can go in accusations 
and opposition.  To ask :
	"Is this a brother in the LORD?" 

 If the answer is "Yes", my love for him should make me able to deal gently
 with him in a way he can accept.  Not to deliver an abrupt accusation which 
 is going to arouse all his defenses to resist, regardless of the truth of 
 the matter.

 If the answer is "No", my love and compassion for him should make me able
 to deal gently with one who does not benefit from the indwelling 
 inspiration of the Holy Spirit; to set me on my face before the LORD, in 
 tears, to seek for the salvation of that soul.  After all, they can hardly 
 be expected to recognise the spiritual wisdom pointed out to them in their 
 worldly, fallen strength....

We are not here to judge each other.  If (as it appears from the 
characteristics singled out) you have particular people in view, having 
problems with their witness or lifestyle, you should approach them 
personally and individually.  For any here, the first priority has to be 
the work we do for DEC.  This is one reason why notes participation has 
dropped a lot over recent months.  Also why occasionally one or another has 
to duck out for a spell.  As for moderating, the reason we have four is so 
that the load does not fall too heavily on any one, and we can cover for 
each other's busy times.  One would only accept moderatorship of any
personal interest conference (in particular), after obtaining approval from 
one's immediate boss.  Our DEC productivity is viewed in this perspective, 
and if the balance left us short on the employers side, we would be the 
first to hear!

Greg, I'm amazed at the amount some people can enter - it challenges what I
can skim in an evening's condensed printout!  But that is between them, the
LORD and their employer.  If the LORD gives them a particular facility in
that area - Praise the LORD, rather than judging the recipient! 

We can't act as the conscience for someone else.  That is trying to take 
God's work into our own hands, and the usual result is to muddy the waters, 
so that they resist a nudge from gentler sources.  If anything, the LORD's 
work than has more to do....

Romans 12:10 says : 
 "Be devoted to one another in brotherly love.  Honour one another above 
  yourselves."

Philippians 2:3 says : 
 "Do nothing out of selfish ambition of vain conceit, but in humility 
  consider others better than yourselves. "

- one might add, not just 'even' when they're not, but 'especially' when
they're not ;-).  The very feeling that someone else is *not* better than
me, means that I have lost sight of some vital element of God's wonderful
work in the chief of sinners; the one whose wayward heart I know better
than any other, and that, even without fully knowing its murky depths. 
Neither do I wish to, except as He reveals new and liberated dimensions of
His work within me.... 

�	- They make _no_ meaningful impact for the Corporation~?!

Now this one hits me right home, kinda mean.  I mean, I plead totally
guilty on this one. There are many people in digital who don't even know I
exist!!!!  In fact, I guess even the head of the corporation doesn't know I
exist!!!!  And he knows *all* there is to know of any importance at all about
digital.  And the previous head of the corporation probably retired without
even knowing I exist!   Now, that really *must* make me a non-person.... 

Btw - how do you measure 'meaningful impact for the Corporation'?  By how
much we pray for digital?  I guess you can't make much more impact than by
bringing it to the attention of our Creator (I've felt uncomfortable that
business meetings didn't begin with prayer.  But then, I can always start
with a private one). 

I was looking at the prayer note here recently, and thinking it hasn't had
much input, but then, most of us would be speaking our prayers, rather than
typing them, so I don't think it really reflects a lack of concern.  And
since it was started, the stock has gone up significantly.  Or perhaps
you're not convinced about the connection? 

�	- They make _no_ meaningful impact for the Corporation~?!

I think I would utterly despair if I thought that would likely be the 
judgement on my life.  I stand before the throne, and THERE in front of me 
is the Almightly God, my Creator, the sum of all glory and majesty, 
wonderful, and awesome in His beauty.  THIS is the One I've tried (so 
feebly) to serve in my puny life here on earth - to be something for His 
kingdom.  We wait to hear His pronouncement. I know all my failures - then 
I will ... know as I am known... (1 Corinthians 13:12), but I can bear it 
in His strength given, with the love that shines out of His eyes, fully 
seen at last...  And what does He say?
  ".... _no_ meaningful impact for the Corporation" ?
  "You died for me for THAT???? Why did You bother at all???? - how can I 
   share Your heaven, knowing I am at best tolerated as a parasite??? - a 
   hanger on, just there for what he can get out of it?  Is this turning
   heaven into hell???"

Greg, I can't see any special virtue in my life.  I've been given nearly 47
years so far, and what have *I* done?  And physically, I'm not what I used
to be.  I'm not likely to rock the world in my post-47 years. There's
people who live in my street who probably don't even know my name.  There's
certainly people who live in my street who don't know I work for digital...

But I'm not relying on man's judgement.  I'm still hoping for the welcome 
He gives in Matthew 25:34 ....

 "Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the 
  kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world..."

If you read on, don't forget verses 37-40, where those so blessed didn't 
think of themselves as being of any meaningful impact for the Corporation.  
Like the parable in Luke 17:9.  

As well, there's :
Matthew 25:21,23
	"His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful
	 servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will 
	 make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy 
	 of thy lord ... His lord said unto him, Well done, good and 
	 faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things,
	 I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the
	 joy of thy lord."

Luke 19:17 
	"And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast 
	 been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities."

I sure *pray* about my work at DEC.  I need to , with the bugs I write into
my programs.  But I'm hoping they won't cancel my reservation in heaven....
Nor my over-length reply here.  The second in a couple of weeks, I think.
Now that just *might* zap another of those cities.  Maybe you might just
get it, Greg? ;-)  Look after it for me, please! ;-)

						God bless
								Andrew

Greg,
  Were you the anonymous person who sent all my notes to Bob Palmer?
Did you intend to get me fired or disciplined?

  If you hadn't read it elsewhere, the head of corporate human relations
did investigate my job performance and found my record "clean."  That's
how he characterized it.  It is a fact that I do exemplary work at times
and have the accolades of both my peers and the people for whom I do the 
job, the engineers.  John Murphy, (the aforementioned head of HR) said, 
"this is not a high school."  He went on to say that if my work performance
was lacking, then "we'd be having a different conversation."

  Perhaps you should examine what it is this employer asks of you.

  You want Scripture?  How about the man who buried his talent.  This person
repaid the master with exactly what he was entrusted with.  Why was the
master angry?

  It's not about "putting in your time" but "doing your job and adding value."
The other people were commended for investing their talents and doubling
them; making a profit.  If you want to judge people according to what you 
see, then take a look at job performance and come back to us and report.
Otherwise, you miss the mark by a good half (or more) of the story.

Mark Metcalfe

    I find it interesting that the author of this basenote a few weeks back
    deleted ALL of his numerous entries into this conference prior to
    writing .0. ... hmmmmmm
    
    Interesting indeed.
    
    Nancy
    

    
    What a pathetically hateful note!  Even worse, its probably to assuage
    his own guilt for doing that which he has judged others of doing.
    
    things are worse for Mr. Griffis than I thought!
    
    jeff

	Greg,
	How do you know these things are happening ?
	You must be spending quite a lot of time reading this
	and other conferences to know who to point fingers at...

	

>    I find it interesting that the author of this basenote a few weeks back
>    deleted ALL of his numerous entries into this conference prior to
>    writing .0. ... hmmmmmm

Backup copies do not mean that information is lost.  And beyond this, 
more controversial notes are probably extracted for safekeeping.
As Foghorn Leghorn would say, "Fortunately I keep my feathers numbered
for just such an occasion."

I find it quite enjoyable living with myself.

Mark

	Wow Greg, even that one amazed me. Like others have said, you might
want to look at the jobs people are performing. Mark is a good example at how
what looks to be a bad apple really isn't. A work record of clean tells me that
someone had it out for him, but didn't do their homework.


Glen

    why anyone even bothered to respond (intelligently) to this note is
    beyond me - it just gave the rise the basenoter was probably looking
    for....put the mouse in front of the cat, stand back and watch em'
    go.....no thanks.
    
    karen

    Benefit the corporation? I think so in some shape or form. I'm a silent
    reader because I don't have much time to write. Now that I have
    
    	1. Wolfed down my lunch 
    	2. taken care of some work
    	3. prepared for my 1pm meeting (that I lead)
    	4. I can read this note conference for some inspiration.
    
    All in my 1 hour lunch time. And I think I can lead my meeting now
    with a little more confidence  (being that my day has not gone well
    so far) and have it progress beautifully.
    
    Thanks to all and God Bless you.
                                   
    Rose

Thanks Rose!  It's always an encouragement to hear from someone who 
doesn't usually get time to write, but likes to dip and read...

May the LORD bless [the rest of] your day, and particularly your meeting 
richly...

							Andrew

I forwared my note to Mr. Griffis but have received no reply.

      Hi Greg,
    
        I tried real hard to glean from your note otherwise I
        wouldn't have been able to profit by it.  Thanks!  (but
        you could have written it a tad differently methinks!!)
    
        Andy, beautiful as usual.
    
        Mark, Foghorn was always one of my favorites!!

	Howdy,

	I would have to agree with Greg that in some cases people do appear
	to be taking advantage of noting.  I too, fall into the case of 
	perhaps spending more time (mostly a reader only) than I should. 
        All the base note to me is stating is that those people who do seem
	to take advantage of Digital by spending an exuberant amount of time 
	in notes know who they are, and it is wrong. Is it unreasonable for 
	Greg, to simply state what the spiritural implications are for a 
	persons not to do their work.
	
	I can see the points that most people make, I note on my own time, 
	lunch time, breaks, etc.. and from what I've seen that is true, but 
	that is not always the case.  He has simply pointed out a spiritual 
	law, God intends us to work, and to work as unto Him.  Is spending a 
	lot of a persons work hours noting edifing God..? I guess to some 
	degree and circumstance it can be, when people in need get ministered 
	to.  I don't know if I can agree with a chit-chat note.  Is it 
	really necessary to have conversations on the tube?
	
	How about Digital?   Yes, Christians are blessed with the use of a 
	notesfile.  Where do we draw the line as to what is taking advantage 
	of our employer?  This is not only a question for this conference but 
	to all conferences.  I guess Digital must monitor the notesfiles and 
	is responsible to draw the line.  Mark M. I liked your reply about the 
	man who buried his talent and profited nothing for his master.  
	
	I think the base note also states that, in a way, we should 
	all take a look at ourselves in regards to noting.  I believe the 
	outline of the basenote is a good scriptural reference for working, 
        (except for the last section) and should not be taken lightly.     
	So far, to me it says we should work and not be slothful, work as 
	unto the Lord, and that work should benefit our employer (MM) as well 
        as our Lord.  I am curious to know, what others may consider to be 
	good work ethics.  

	Just my $.02 worth,
		
	Richard

	Richard, did the basenote make you think Greg was excluded from this
group he is talking about? I know it struck me that way. IF, this is the case,
he may have to start looking for that log in his eye.....


Glen

Hello Richard, 

The theory behind the base note is right in principle.  We should be good
stewards, and test ourselves continually, against our use of things like
notes.  However .0 wasn't expressed as stating a principle.  It was written
as an accusation.  The list of characteristics is targetted at individuals,
whose responsibility is to steward their own time before the LORD.  You
explicitly exclude the last section from your observation, but it is that
last section which spoke loudest to a lot of people, and made them feel
personally accused, not because it gave voice to the Holy Spirit, but
because man's judgement was being applied.  The first paragraph also made
it clear that this was a personally directed accusation. 

Had this been seen by the moderators first, it is likely that it would have
been set hidden as transgressing guidelines - being a personal attack.
However, once replies had come in, it needed to be dealt with out in the
open.  The big issue of the topic then turned out to be, not the matter of
principle, as to where the boundary of ethical noting lies, but the ethics
of judging others' noting practices. 

					God bless
							Andrew

    RE: .18 
    
    Glenn, I did not think Greg was excluded, but it did seem to be a
    directed topic.
    
    RE: .19
    
    Andrew Hi,  I can definately see your point as to how it wasn't laid
    out as a principle.  Also why the moderators would have write-locked
    the topic.  It still surpizes me, that it has been write-locked as yet.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard

� It still surpizes me, that it has been write-locked as yet.
				   ^
		      Presumably 'not' omitted ... ?

;-)  As the note seemed to be personally directed against moderators and an
ex-moderator, we have to be specially careful not to seem to be 'covering
up' against an accusation.  Once seen publicly (as it was before the 
moderators were around), we felt it needed to be answered publicly.  Our 
shoulders can take a little 'personal' without trouble ;-)

						God bless
							Andrew

      Hi Rich,
    
        I basically believe that even criticism is supposed to 
        be given in a Christlike spirit and style.  Content must
        include the backdrop of the character of Christ else it
        simply does not bear the divine imprint rather the imprint
        of the evil one.
    
        You might go far defending the objective content.  I don't
        think you'll get anywhere trying to defend the style or the
        'obvioussness' of the presence of agape.
    
                                                 Tony

    RE: .22
    
    Tony,
    
    If you, or anyone else thinks I'm defending Greg's style of writing
    you would be mistaken.  I do not condone his style of writing, and
    have asked him to try to word his notes differently.  I try to look
    beyond his 'rough style' (to put it lightly), and try to see what
    he is trying to say.  Sorry if I confused anyone.
    
    Richard

    re: -1
    
      Hi Rich,
    
        Then I agree 100% with you!
    
                                            Tony