Conference yukon::christian_v7

    This question predictably came up in some of my philosophy classes. My
    response was a bit different from yours, Mark. The Bible says that
    there are indeed things that God cannot do. He cannot lie, for example
    (Titus 1:2). I also believe that God cannot sin (unfortunately, no
    Scripture reference immediately springs to mind). So, God can't do
    things that would make Him not be God. He *is* God, and even He can't
    change that. (Do I hear an amen?)
    
    As for the rock question, my answer is No. He cannot make a rock so big
    that He can't move it. That doesn't make Him less than God - though it
    may change how *we* think about God.
    
    	BD�

Thanks, Barry, for taking up the discussion.

I understand that because of God nature, he cannot sin because by his 
nature, he defines what is sin and what is not.

Now, given a definition of sin, God is capable of committing it but 
will not because it is not in His nature to commit that which He has
defined as sin.  (I don't think we're far apart here at all, and I'm
the one wrestling semantics, I think.)

God is God and He cannot change that (yes, amen)...."though it may change 
how *we* think about God."

How does it change the way you think about God?
Is God limited?  Is this the same as saying God is not all-powerful
and not all-wise if God is limited in any way?

Mark

    No. There is no limit to God. It is only our imagination that has
    limits. "Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these
    things" Isaiah 40:26
     We should turn are imagination to God. He will put us into
    relationships we never belived possible.
    
    Steve D.
    
    ps. I wish I could think of some other questions like this. The kind
    that children come up with. They are fun to talk about.
                                    

Re: .0  (Mark)
>Himself by His own unique nature.  He asked, "is God capable of evil?"
>I said, "yes, God is *capable* of it because God has free will and the 
>power to define Good and Evil to boot.  But God chooses, because of His

Since God defines what is good and what is evil, and only does good by
definition, the point is moot.  Everything God is and does is "good" by
definition, period.  So we should ask, who are we to say otherwise?  Are
we the one's setting the moral standard, or is He?

Regarding the idea of God's all-powerful strength being pitting against an
immovable object that he created, this is an oxymoron.  If all my statements
are truthful by definition, then how can I state a falsehood?  

	"Everything I say is true.  Now let me tell you a lie..."

If God has unlimited power, then how can he create something that he can't
move? 

	"I can move anything.  I just have a problem with objects that are
	too big for me to move."

Gibberish.

Anything God created is not too big for him to move, because he is God over his
creation.

Same goes for the issue of "can God sin".  The answer is "no", by definition,
because everything God does is good, by definition.

	"I decide what is good and what is evil, and decree that everything I
	do is good.  Except that evil thing I did yesterday."

Gibberish.

     (Do I hear an amen?)
    

      AMEN!!

    


 Jim

>	"Everything I say is true.  Now let me tell you a lie..."

That's the one I couldn't pull out of the recesses of my brain last night!!

And it is the exact one I want and need to show that the original 
question is indeed nonsensical, or as you say, Garth, "gibberish."
Thanks!

And I agree with what you and the previous noters have said.  My caveat
was to "take a defined sin" but of course, God being God, it would be
immediately redefined!  

>Are we the one's setting the moral standard, or is He?

This hits the point home with the *perspective* of the original question!
We attempt to answer question pertaining to infinity with finite concepts.

Good answers, everyone.  And thanks.

    re: lying
    
Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should
repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he
not make it good?

    

    I ran across this very question and obtained a subtly different 
    answer in my philosophical pursuits. 
    
    Q.  Can God create a rock He could not move?
    
    A.  He would not.
    
    
    I find this answer more appealing than most.  The gibberish answer 
    given earlier is similar.
    
    Otto

>    A.  He would not.

Hey, Otto.  I like that, too!

    
    
    	If God could create a rock that he could not move he would not be
    God. It would imply that God was not infinite, in that he created
    something that was greater than himself - this is impossible.
    
    	God cannot tell a lie because he is Truth, the ultimate Truth, the
    be all and end all, he alone IS. A lie is falsehood, that is claiming
    that something is what it isn't, or telling something about a persons
    character which isn't true etc. Why does someone tell a lie ? To hide
    something, to distort something, because of their pride - are these not 
    sources of weakness, spots on a white paper. God is all knowing all
    truth, in him there is no weakness, no hiding only Truth. For God to
    tell a lie would imply that he had a weakness, that he would be denying
    himself which would be a contradiction.
    
    Peace,
    
    		Tom

The question only serves to reveal our limitations, and as such is
valid.  Any thinking person soon comes to realize how finite we are.
Consider that it makes no sense for us for the universe to simply be
infinite, but it makes no sense for it to end either.  You may as 
well attempt to answer the question of "where" the universe is.  We
can formulate, what to us is a complete paradox.  It is exquisite that
Jesus himself said this directly for us, so that it is answered for
all time.

Lew

    RE: .0:
    
> My friend brought up an age-old question, "Can God create a rock so big
> that He cannot move it?"
    
    I think the answer to both questions is yes: God can create an
    infinitely big rock and He also can move an infinitely big rock.
    
    	+- ilpo.
    

    > My friend brought up an age-old question, "Can God create a rock so big
    > that He cannot move it?"
    
    If God were to create an immovable object then, of course, he wouldn't
    be able to shift it. Otherwise it wouldn't be immovable. But if God
    then shifted the rest of the universe in the other direction the effect
    would be the same. The immovable object would have moved!
    
    Of course, that's assuming God is working in the mundane dimensions and
    has to play tricks with relative motion.
    
    So, a paradox is created which will never cease to be presented in
    notes conferences and their equivalents throughout eternity. Maybe one
    day we can ask Him?
    
    Regards,
    Peter.
    

    Re: Note 623.13 by AUSSIE::SUMSKAS
    
    I like it!