Conference yukon::christian_v7

    I'm not sure what gave anyone the impression that people in here
    haven't witnessed this first hand.
    
    One thing that always comes to mind is that the Holy Spirit is a
    gentleman and doesn't force Himself on believers like this.  1
    Corinthians 12-14 make it clear that the believer has full control of
    his faculties, and is aware enough to stop manifestations when the Holy
    Spirit is working through them.
    
    This isn't the case with laughing in the spirit.  Some people have said
    they can't control it and sometimes laugh until they are in pain and
    become afraid.  This isn't how the Holy Spirit works, folks.
    
    Mike

 A Scripture that comes to mind is "God is not the author of confusion", and
 all I see when I catch this on TV is confusion.  Again, I like to think that
 occasionally there are lost souls who wander in..and this is the first glimpse
 they may get of Christianity..a group of folks falling on the ground and
 laughing hysterically.  

 How are Christians edified?  How are the Lost given witness to the Lord?  How
 is God glorified?



Jim

   "If you have come to a strong personal conviction on one side of a doctrinal 
    issue, please grant us the privilege of first seeing how it has helped you 
    to become more Christ-like in your nature, and then we will judge whether 
    we need to come to that same persuasion.  Let us always be certain to look 
    at the fruit of the teaching."   - Pastor Chuck Smith 
    
    How is forced, uncontrollable laughter Christ-like?
    
    thanks,
    Mike

    
    
    	Howdy All,
    
     I was just wondering on what scripture do the "Laughing in the Spirit"
    base this on ?
    
    					Alfonso (fonz)
    

My question regarding this subject is "why is this a new phenomenon?"

 What, then, is the purpose of laughing in the spirit?





Jim

    Mark,
    
    I haven't seen any of the forementioned TV shows but if it's what I
    think it is then it is not a new phenomenon.  At least if you allow 15
    years to qualify as not new.  It may have been going on prior to that
    but I was not in the circles that would have been aware of such things.  
    Back in the late '70s there was going on what I think is the same thing 
    but it was called the "Joy of the Lord" then.  If it's the same thing 
    then it's not a forced laughter as much as an overwhelming sense of 'joy 
    in the Holy Ghost' that causes the laughter to emerge naturally.  As 
    with anything there will always be the contrived and manipulated but 
    in my opinion there is nothing any stranger about receiving God's joy 
    than there is about receiving God's peace.
                                        
    Kent

>    Johnathan Edwards writes in his journals of bizarre manifestations and
>    Augustine writes of manifestations of laughing during revival meetings.
    
    I'm not stranger to the display of being "drunk" in the Spirit, but
    this is very different.
    
    I'd still like to see a Scripture reference for this, like previously
    asked for.  
    
    Meanwhile check out 1 Corinthians 14:26-33,40.  When the Spirit
    manifests Himself, there is order (verse 40), not confusion.  This current 
    trend has a lot of confusion (verse 33).  The Holy Spirit is a
    gentleman and does not force Himself.  The believer has full control. 
    See verse 32.  In this current trend, many have professed to have no
    control and laugh until there sides ache with pain.  The experience was
    scary for them.  Does this sound like God?  No!

14:26  How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a
 psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an
 interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

14:27  If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most
 by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

14:28  But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and
 let him speak to himself, and to God.

14:29  Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

14:30  If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold
 his peace.

14:31  For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be
 comforted.

14:32  And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

14:33  For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches
 of the saints.

14:40  Let all things be done decently and in order.

    Mike,
    
    It's obvious to me that I need more information on what is going on
    here.  As I read this string it appears to me that there are two
    different events being described.  I know it isn't but somewhere
    there's a disconnect.  Could someone please insert an article or two in
    here describing these events or perhaps even include a more complete
    description of what has happened to them during the experience.  I feel
    like I'm about a half page behind everyone else.
    
    Mike, as for the oft quoted "the Holy Spirit is a gentleman" please
    give me chapter and verse where Scripture states this.  And given this
    definition of the workings of God please define the word 'miracle'
    particularly regarding human assent.  The phrase conjures up images of
    Word of Faith doctrine, "God can't move unless we allow Him."
    
    As far as 1 Corinthians 14, the verses quoted are excellent direction
    for ministry in the church.  Are you suggesting that those who are
    laughing are in some way perporting to minster to the rest of the body?
    
    Having not seen this 'new' revival I can't speak to it's veracity but
    neither do I offhandedly reject it as it appears some are doing.
    
    Kent
    

    Joy is not something that manifests itself onto you and then disappears
    again, that is worldly.  The joy of Christ is in our salvation.  It has
    nothing to do with "laughter", it has to do with inward man.
    
    The only reference I can think of to bind with seasonal joy is sin.  
    
    
    
    The joy of the Lord is my salvation.
    
    I watched a movie last night on TV about a mother and wife who gets
    caught up in a cult.  Interestingly enough, the method the cult leader
    used to control his followers was crying.  He had them cry until utter
    exhaustion and then they were in a weakened enough state to be
    manipulated and receive hypnotic suggestions.
    
    Extreme laughter has the same effect as extreme crying and it weakens
    not strengthens the body, when uncontrolled.
    
    Uncontrolled doesn't mean its FORCED on you by others, but by a
    spiritual manifestation.  I've said it before and I'll say it again,
    these NEW experiences give way for the NEW religion of the 21st
    century; New Age.
    
    In His Love,
    Nancy
    

    >    Mike, as for the oft quoted "the Holy Spirit is a gentleman" please
>    give me chapter and verse where Scripture states this.  And given this
>    definition of the workings of God please define the word 'miracle'
>    particularly regarding human assent.  The phrase conjures up images of
>    Word of Faith doctrine, "God can't move unless we allow Him."

    Trinity isn't mentioned in the Bible either but we can determine the
    nature of God in the actions of the Godhead throughout the Bible.
    
    I don't see this as Word of Faith.  It seems to me that when you see 
    the Holy Spirit moving in the Bible, it is upon willing vessels.  In 
    addition, the passages in 1 Corinthians 14 state that the believer has 
    control of what's happening.  Do you remember the first time you felt led 
    to give a tongue or interpretation?  Most people experience some anxiety on
    whether to submit to the Spirit and step out in faith or to withdraw. 
    This is the kind of control I'm talking about, not the Word of Faith
    angle.  The relationship between the believer and the Holy Spirit is a
    gentle one.  If you don't willingly submit, He doesn't force Himself on
    you.  However, He will continually impress the need upon you or convict you
    until you do submit.
    
    The apostles in the upper room in Acts 2 were willing vessels that
    submitted to what God told them was coming.  The Holy Spirit then moved
    mightily upon them!
    
    Miracles require the same submission to God's Will and faith as well.

>    As far as 1 Corinthians 14, the verses quoted are excellent direction
>    for ministry in the church.  Are you suggesting that those who are
>    laughing are in some way perporting to minster to the rest of the body?

    Tongues isn't always a ministry in the church.  Most of the time it's
    for self-edification of the believer.  I'm suggesting that 'laughing in
    the spirit' falls under the same guidelines as tongues.  I'm sure its
    advocates think it is self-edifying like tongues.  However, within the
    body of believers at church it should fall under the same order as
    tongues.  There isn't chaos at an altar service.  My experience of
    laughing in the Spirit says otherwise.

    Mike

Wherever God brings something about, the enemy is likely to try to
counterfeit it.  Satan is satisfied with people who are taken in by the
counterfeit, but I suspect he's even more pleased about those who see
through the counterfeit and on that basis, reject the true manifestations
of the LORD. 

Our recognition of where and how God is working shouldn't be based on our 
evaluation of the value of the phenomenon.  We cannot perceive what is 
happening in the spiritual realm - apart from the discernment He gives us 
in these areas.  We should be able to ask the LORD for a discernment of the
spirit or Spirit behind ther happening.

Much of what I've heard reported seems to indicate that there is a large
amount of deception in the laughing & animal noises scenario, because it
clearly detracts from the respect which should be given to the reading of
God's Word, and the honour of His worship.  There is a difference between
simplicity of expression, and ridicule, and in examples I've heard of, this
line seems to have been crossed over.  For instance, the presence of fear
(in the sense of terror, not of awe) has been implied, and this is a
warning flag which definitely speaks of the enemy rather than of the LORD, 
eg from 1 John 4:18, which reminds us that "perfect love casts out fear".

I would not rule out the possibility of a genuine work of the Spirit in the
dimension of laughter, but I would particularly expect the public 
manifestation to be contained within certain constraints.

Luke 10:21 refers to "Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit", 
resulting directly in praise to the Father.  When I see the result as 
praise and / or worship, it carries the confirmation of peace in the heart.

								Andrew

Orval,

There are certainly churches in the UK where this occurs, and they are
attracting the curious as well...  I don't know how long it's been over 
here, but long enough to have aroused articles in 'all' the religious 
press (that I've seen).

								Andrew

.18� Moderators,
.18�    I hope this is Ok to post someone elses article off the internet here.
.18�    If not let me know.

It's OK with the headers retained.  Just checked with Jim ;-)

We use this in news reports elsewhere in the conference too.

							   Andrew
							co-moderator

    .17
    
    Not only was Pentecost done in order, but it was done for one reason
    and one reason only for the power of the Spirit upon those present
    giving them the ability to speak in a KNOWN language to spread the
    Gospel.
    
    Nancy

    .19
    
    People are flocking because the INNER man is not satisfied.  This
    speaks loudly as to the heart condition of many Christians.  The joy of
    the Lord is our Salvation.  That is why the Psalmist cried out "restore
    unto me the joy of my salvation.  This was not asking for a
    manifestation of laughter, it was requiring the attitude of the inner
    man to be corrected.
    
    Remember when you first received Christ into your life?  Remember the
    joy and weight lifted off your shoulders?  Remember feeling as though
    finally you were at peace with yourself?
    
    Father bring back to mind [restore the joy] my salvation.
    
    Nancy

      The closest I've come to laughter is when I was studying and
      a light bulb turned on (seeing the word in a fresh way) or
      a friend shared something that was fresh and then I'd smile
      and say, "WOW!!"  Maybe chuckle a bit too.
    
      Somehow, I kind of don't think this quite fits with the topic!
    
      Actually, I think God is calling for a DEEP repentence such that
      we will spiritually experience the symbolic meaning of wearing
      sackloth and ashes and of having affliction of soul.  Its been few 
      and far between, but I hope for a deep repentence and I suspect 
      I may get it even if I don't laugh ecstatically now and then.
    
                                               God Bless,
    
                                               Tony

Agreed, Tony.  Though I wouldn't totally discount the joy of His light upon
a new aspect of the LORD springing from His Word.  It might have a faint
relationship to the deeper work of the Spirit resting in us with His great
joy.  But I particularly agree that the greatest joy and peace comes
through the most intense repentance, as the Spirit does the spring-cleaning 
job, and we are weaned from things we didn't understand...

								Andrew

      a hearty weep....amen Andy, amen!!
                                                    
                                                Tony

    I agree with Nancy, they were speaking in KNOWN tongues.  Here it is in 
    the NRSV:
    
    
(All texts taken from New Revised Standard Version)
--------------------------------------------------
TONGUES IN THE BIBLE:
---------------------

Acts 2:1-21

  When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place.
And suddenly from heaven there came a sound like the rush of a violent 
wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. Divided 
tongues, as of fire, appeared among them, and a tongue rested on each of 
them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in 
other languages, as the Spirit gave them ability.

  Now there were devout Jews from every nation under heaven living in 
Jerusalem.  And at this sound the crowd gathered and was bewildered, because 
each one heard them speaking in the native language of each.

  Amazed and astonished, they asked, "Are not all these who are speaking 
Galileans?  And how is it that we hear, each of us, in our own native language?
Parthians, Medes, Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, 
Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging 
to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs 
- in our own languages we hear them speaking about God's deeds of power."

  All were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, "What does this mean?"
But others sneered and said, "They are filled with new wine."  But Peter, 
standing with the eleven, raised his voice and addressed them, "Men of Judea 
and all who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and listen to what I 
say.  Indeed, these are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only nine o'clock 
in the morning.  No, this is what was spoken through the prophet Joel; 

 	'In the last days it will be, God declares, 
	that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, 
	and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
	and your young men shall see visions, 
	and your old men shall dream dreams.  
	
	Even upon my slaves, both men and women, 
	in those days I will pour out my Spirit; 
	and they shall prophesy.  

	And I will show portents in the heaven above 
	and signs on the earth below, blood, 
	and fire, and smoky mist.  
	The sun shall be turned to darkness 
	and the moon to blood, before the 
	coming of the Lord's great and glorious day.  

	Then everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.'



Acts 10:44-46

  While Peter was still speaking, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who heard 
the word.  The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astounded 
that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles, 
for they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God.



Acts 19:6

  When Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and 
they spoke in tongues and prophesied.



1 Corinthians 12: 1-11 & 27-31

  Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to 
be uninformed.  You know that when you were pagans, you were enticed and led 
astray to idols that could not speak.  Therefore I want you to understand that 
no one speaking by the Spirit of God ever says "Let Jesus be cursed!" and no 
one can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit.

  Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are 
varieties of services, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of 
activities, but it is the same God who activates all of them in everyone.

 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. To one 
is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the 
utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the 
same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the 
working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the discernment of 
spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation 
of tongues.  All these are activated by one and the same Spirit, who allots 
to each one individually just as the Spirit chooses.


  Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.  And God has 
appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers; then 
deeds of power, then gifts of healing, forms of assistance, forms of 
leadership, various kinds of tongues.  Are all apostles?  Are all prophets?  
Are all teachers?  Do all work miracles?  Do all possess gifts of healing?  
Do all speak in tongues?  Do all interpret?  But strive for the greater gifts.  
And I will show you a still more excellent way.  


1 Corinthians 13:1-13

  If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, 
I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.  And if I have prophetic powers, and 
understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to 
remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.  If I give away all my 
possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have 
love, I gain nothing.

  Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant
or rude.  It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;
it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth.  It bears all 
things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.  Love never 
ends.  But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they 
will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end.  For we know only in 
part, and we prophesy only in part; but when the complete comes, the partial 
will come to an end.

  When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I 
responded like a child; when I became an adult, I put an end to childish ways.
For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then we will see face to face.  Now I 
know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known. And 
now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.


1 Corinthians 14:1-39

  Pursue love and strive for the spiritual gifts, and especially that you 
may prophesy.  For those who speak in a tongue do not speak to other people 
but to God; for nobody understands them, since they are speaking mysteries in 
the Spirit.  On the other hand, those who prophesy speak to other people for 
their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation.  Those who speak in a 
tongue build up themselves, but those who prophesy build up the church.

  Now I would like all of you to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. 
One who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless someone 
interprets, so that the church may be built up.

  Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will 
I benefit you unless I speak to you in some revelation or knowledge or 
prophecy or teaching?  It is the same way with lifeless instruments that 
produce sound, such as the flute or the harp.  If they do not give distinct 
notes, how will anyone know what is being played?  And if the bugle gives an 
indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle?

  So with yourselves; if in a tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, 
how will anyone know what is being said?  For you will be speaking into the air.
There are doubtless many different kinds of sounds in the world, and nothing 
is without sound.  If then I do not know the meaning of a sound, I will be a 
foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me.

  So with yourselves; since you are eager for spiritual gifts, strive to excel 
in them for building up the church.  Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue 
should pray for the power to interpret.  For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit 
prays but my mind is unproductive.   What should I do then?  I will pray with 
the spirit, but I will pray with the mind also; I will sing praise with the 
spirit, but I will sing praise with the mind also.

  Otherwise, if you say a blessing with the spirit, how can anyone in the 
position of an outsider say the "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since the 
outsider does not know what you are saying?  For you may give thanks well 
enough, but the other person is not built up.

  I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you; nevertheless, in 
church I would rather speak five words with my mind, in order to instruct 
others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

  Brothers and sisters, do not be children in your thinking; rather, be 
infants in evil, but in thinking be adults.  In the law it is written,  "By 
people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners I will speak to this 
people; yet even they will not listen to me, says the Lord.

  Tongues, then, are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while 
prophecy is not for unbelievers but for believers.  If, therefore, the whole 
church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers 
enter, will they not say that you are out of your mind?  But if all prophesy, 
an unbeliever or outsider who enters is reproved by all and called to account 
by all.  After the secrets of the unbeliever's heart are disclosed, that person 
will bow down before God and worship him, declaring, "God is really among you."

  What should be done then, my friends?  When you come together, each one 
has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation.  Let all 
things be done for building up.  If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be 
only two or at most three, and each in turn; and let one interpret.  But if 
there is no one to interpret, let them be silent in church and speak to 
themselves and to God.  Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others 
weigh what is said.  If a revelation is made to someone else sitting nearby, 
let the first person be silent.  For you can all prophesy one by one, so that 
all may learn and all be encouraged.  And the spirits of prophets are subject 
to the prophets, for God is a God not of disorder but of peace.  

  (As in all the churches of the saints, women should be silent in the 
churches.  For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as 
the law also says.  If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask 
their husbands at home.  For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
Or did the word of God originate with you?  Or are you the only ones it 
has reached?)

  Anyone who claims to be a prophet, or to have spiritual powers, must 
acknowledge that what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord.  Anyone 
who does not recognize this is not to be recognized.

  So, my friends, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues; 
but all things should be done decently and in order.

    Boy, you guys can type fast.
    
    Okay, we have one article in Charisma magazine which I will read as 
    soon as possible.  Andrew has seen some articles in the UK.  Mike's 
    'experience' is that there have been at least some to whom fear was 
    ministered rather than edification.  Did I miss anything?
    
    First, Nancy/Janet, if I tried to debate your opinion about the events of 
    Pentecost (Acts 2), Acts 4, in Samaria (Acts 8), at Cornelius' house 
    (Acts 10 & 11), Acts 13 (why do you suppose that verse 52 says that the 
    disciples were filled with JOY and with the Holy Ghost?), and in 
    Ephesus (Acts 19) we would be driving down a major rathole.  My guess, 
    without looking, is that you and others in this conference have been 
    down that road several times with little to no consensus except perhaps 
    to agree to disagree.  For this reason, I will not address our 
    differences on glossolalia and zenolalia and the baptism in the Holy 
    Spirit in this string.
    
    Mike, 1 Corintihians is essentially an epistle of correction to the 
    Corinthian church to set right abuses and neglects both in their 
    personal lives and when they assembled together.  Chapters 12 to 14 
    (chapter 13 inclusive) primarily address the proper operation of the 
    gifts of the Spirit and the proper order for the manifestation of the 
    gifts in the assembly.  While there are secondary points to be made 
    within the text are beneficial, the incidental treatment of tongues as 
    a ministry gift and as a prayer language is not the primary thrust of 
    the chapters.  My understanding of these event is that those who are 
    laughing are primarily the ones being ministered to, not the ones 
    ministering.  Is this a misunderstanding on my part?  Is the whole 
    congregation being caught up with the Holy Spirit as the minister?
    
    Regarding miracles and human assent, Mike's definition makes God's 
    divine intervention in the affairs and lives of men contingent upon 
    man's faith and submission but by example Mike's statement defines not 
    only when God can move in man's life but how.  Using the Pentecost 
    example, did the disciples know how the Holy Spirit would manifest on 
    them?  They knew that they would receive the promise of the Father 
    which was the Holy Spirit and they knew that with this that they would 
    receive power to be witnesses but the events of Pentecost were 
    certainly beyond their realm of experience or understanding.
    
    Quiz:
    
    1. Is there and event in Scripture called 'laughing in the Spirit'?
    
    2. Should the believer be joyful?
    
    3. Should we express our joy?
    
    4. Is laughter an unacceptable expression of joy?
    
    5. Is joy limited to the abiding joy of salvation?
    
    6. Can we have the abiding joy of our salvation and additional joyful 
    'explosions' (experiences)?
    
    7. Is depression:
       A. ONLY psychological
       B. ONLY spiritual
       C. ONLY physical
       C. A and B and C
       D. A and/or B and/or C
       E. None of the above
    
    8. Is joy:
       A. ONLY psychological
       B. ONLY spiritual
       C. ONLY physical
       C. A and B and C
       D. A and/or B and/or C
       E. None of the above
    
    9. Can God impart joy?
    
    10. What is the possible benefit of such 'explosions'?  
    (Hint: I would say that there could be many but the verse that comes to 
    mind is in Proverbs, "A merry heart doeth good like a medicine.")
    
    
    Solomon, when he had built the temple, prayed to God before the people 
    and said, "Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain 
    thee; how much less this house which I have built!"  Translation: "God, 
    you're so much bigger than this tiny box I put you in so I can relate 
    to you."
    
    
                          

    There's an article about this in the new "Christian Sentinel" as well.

    Christian Sentinal is not one I'm familiar with.  Is that available at
    the bookstore or subscription only.  If it's subscription only could
    someone enter here or send me a mail or fax me a copy of it.
    
    Thanks,
    

    I was going to try and enter it this week.  It comes out of
    Philadelphia, but we usually have them in our church library.
    
    Mike

    Hello Kent,
    
    >1. Is there and event in Scripture called 'laughing in the Spirit'?
    
    I couldn't find one.  Is there one?  What I did find was that "laugh"
    (also laughed, laughter) is used 38 times in the Bible.  Many of these
    seem to be in the context of "laughed him to scorn" or derision.  There
    is one that could qualify with a real stretch of the imagination:
     "And Sarah said, God hath made me to laugh"  Genesis 21:6  but I'm
    pretty sure that this one is self-explanatory when taken in context.
    
    And how about this Roaring like a lion in the Spirit?  Consider this:
    The only one mentioned in the Bible as roaring like a lion is satan.
    "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a
     roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour" 1Peter 5:8
    Of course, Jesus is the Lion of Judah but, for whatever it's worth, we 
    don't see Him roaring in the Scriptures as an example for us.
    
    Lack of time prevents me from going through the rest of your quiz right
    now.  Maybe later.
    
    In God's Love,
    Janet 

    >Yes I like that. And who are we to predict what God can or Cannot do.
    
    Does God contradict His Word?  Does God change from yesterday, to
    today, to tomorrow?  Do we put God in a box?  NO! x 3

    Janet,
    
    I couldn't find an event or experience called laughing in the Spirit
    either.  The questions were designed to provoke the reader to assess:
    
    	1) Is a divine impartation of joy endorsed by Scripture?
    
    	2) Is a divine impartation of joy contradicted by Scripture?
    [Keep in mind that I am not refering to false, contrived, manipulated
    or soulish counterfeits.  I acknowledge their existence but the
    existence of a counterfeit neither validates nor nullifies the
    experience.]
    
    	3) Is laughter a natural expression of joy?
    
    	4) Is laughter forbidden or discouraged through Scripture?
    
    	5) Is it within the realm of God's sovereignty to minister to His
    people in this manner?
    
    	6) What possible reason could He have for ministering to His people
    in this manner?
    
    The quiz was intended as a thought provoker.  I didn't really expect
    direct answers but thank you for taking them seriously.
    
    Kent
    

    Kent,
    
    Yes, I do realize that this was a 'thought provoker'.  I just wanted 
    to point out a few things.
    
    Warm Regards,
    Janet

    	Howdy All,
    
    I'm normally a read only noter, but this has caused me to give my
    .02... I agree that we should never put God in any type of box because
    He is God. We should always test everything with scripture. Looking at
    scripture we again find no direct verses that pertain to this "new"
    type of movement by the Holy Spirit. Let's look at the past for a
    minute....the Jesus movement of the 60s & 70's was not anything "new"
    but a return to sound teaching of the Word of God - Verse by verse book
    by book in context.....IMHO some of these "new" ideas are due to a lack
    of sound biblical teaching.
    
    
    						Fonz

    
    Everybody wants to be "right" and everybody wants to have "control".
    
    These two attitudes are counter to the Spirit of God.

    Every man's way is right in his own eyes, but God pondereth the heart!
    
    :-)
    
    God has set us free to experience the complete joy of our salvation. 
    Emotionalism and emotions are not the same thing, though I find today
    that many Christians wish to make them all inclusive.
    
    Today we live in a society where accountability has become all but
    naught in our court systems, as well as our familial systems.  
    
    This New Age concept of "blame someone else" for why we behave the way
    we do is destroying our families, churches and societies.  
    
    No matter what someone has done to me, I am responsible for my
    behavior.  Understanding why I behave a certain way SHOULD NEVER be
    used as an EXCUSE to get away with murder [used punningly].
    
    Nancy

    .40
    
    addendum
    
    I said all of that to say this;  When we live our lives based on our
    emotions we lose the stability of our salvations and are robbed of the
    joy.  This is why "laughing revivals" catch on.

      Hi,
    
        Kent, what is zenolalia?  By the way, as per usual, I really
        have appreciated your replies.  They are warm, biblical, _and_
        logical!!
    
        No doubt, laughter is not forbidden.  Maybe its a bit of a thing
        where as we grow in Christ, we will discern the way to go with
        things.  With where I am now, I personally (in my heart) do not
        consider it of the Lord to laugh uncontrallably and hysterically
        for extended periods of time.  I just don't and that's just where
        I'm at right now.
    
                                                       Tony

    Tony,
    
    My original note misspelled the word.  It should have been xenolalia.
    
    Xenolalia - Speaking in tongues in a known language that is unknown or
    		unlearned by the speaker.
    
    Glossolalia - Composed of two Greek words, glossa - tongue or language,
    		and lalia - speech or speaking.  Speaking in tongues (or 
    		tongue speaking) in a language, known or unknown, that is 
    		unknown or unlearned by the speaker.
    
    The New Testament word is glossolalia.  Often times the Pentecost event
    is described as the disciples (at least 120 of them) speaking in the
    various languages and dialects of the visitors celebrating the feast of
    Pentecost.  A representative list of the visitors is given in Acts 2. 
    Imagine yourself standing in the midst of the crowd and out of the
    upper room comes 120 people, appearing drunk, all talking.  Even if one
    or two of them were speaking in your native tongue there would be 118
    or 119 who were speaking something incoherent.  That's a lot of
    confusion and as Mike has already pointed out, God is not the author of
    confusion.  But the Scripture says that every man heard THEM speaking 
    in his own tongue.  I believe that God was simply fulfilling the 
    directive he would later give Paul in that, in the assembly, one should 
    not speak in tongues unless one is there to interpret.  For them to 
    speak without interpretation would have been out of order so God was the 
    interpreter, translating the tongues simultaneously to every listener.  
    If the disciples or any of the other examples were speaking in an 
    unlearned language then the more correct term would have been xenolalia. 
    Glossolalia does not exclude xenolalia but neither is it limited to it.
    
    I understand that you can not accept the laughing in the Spirit and to
    be honest if I find out that it is less than I have described (a divine
    impartation of joy which manifests itself through laughter) then I will
    back off my support.  Some of the objections sound like an episode of
    the original Star Trek where the usual group of officers are being
    tormented by a group of elites who are able to control the will and
    emotions of their victims.  They force Spock to laugh and then cry (or
    is it the other way around) until Kirk cries out for them to stop
    because it is unnatural for Spock to express emotion (or to feel it) 
    and doing so would kill him.  Christians aren't exempt from emotions
    but neither should we be controlled by them or driven to emotionalism.
    I see a lot of people who have no joy, who are hurting inside, who 
    are overwhelmed by the cares of life and I can see God ministering joy 
    to them.  This in no way negates the need for times of crying out 
    between the porch and the altar but there is a season for everything.  
    
    Kent
    

    >Christians aren't exempt from emotions
    >but neither should we be controlled by them or driven to
    >emotionalism.
    
    Agreed.
    
    >I see a lot of people who have no joy, who are hurting inside, who
    >are overwhelmed by the cares of life and I can see God ministering
    >joy to them.  
    
    How does God minister joy to them and of course when the ministering
    stop how long is the after effect?  Is it permanent?
    
    
    >This in no way negates the need for times of crying out
    >between the porch and the altar but there is a season for
    >everything.
    
    
    I don't think anyone assumed differently based on the texts I've read.
    However, since you brought it up... are there not tears of pain the
    bring joy?
    
    

I'm a few days behind.  I posted a question about how "new" this phenomena
was.  Apparently, it's news to me but has been around for a while.
But I'm still unsure as to what "a while" means.

For the record, I have no strong feelings about this subject.  I do not
seek this, (or "tongues" for that matter) but if overcome by either *from God*, 
I'll let you know (maybe), and of course will include the context, if there 
is one.

MM

"Holy Laughter - Is it Biblical?" by Jackie Alnor, The Christian Sentinel
{ The Christian Sentinel takes a closer look at Rodney Howard-Brown}

If you haven't seen the latest "wave of the charismatic spirit" that is rolling
in all over then you probably can't get the Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN)
in your area.  Here's the scene:

A lady wearing a dress is lying down on the ground seemingly writhing in agony
and screaming.  A man with a thick accent in a dark suit is standing over her
barking orders while a crowd of people stand all around laughing.  The lady
appears to be possessed by a demon because her body jumps off the floor in an
unnatural way.  The man pushes her back down ordering her to "stay down" and
"Let it bubble out your belly!"  A woman with an armful of airline blankets
covers her thighs to hide the view of her undergarments.

The lady continues to flop up and down for several minutes screaming
hysterically.  She shouts "Dear Jesus" and the man orders her not to pray but to
submit to the power.  She put her hands over her face and continues laughing
uncontrollably and the man proclaims "There it is!  Now you got it."  The
audience jumps up and down applauding while the man shouts "The bar is open.
The bar is open.  Drink deeply!  Get drunk on the spirit!"

The man is Rodney Howard-Browne (RHB), a South African "missionary" to the
United States who claims to be bringing in the latest "wave of the Holy Spirit,"
yet as one radio minister has said, "it is the greatest indignity to God yet."
He has been holding "revivals" in the states since 1987 even setting up his
ministry's headquarters in Louisville, KY, though he's just recently come to the
forefront through the vehicle of TBN which has been televising the theatrics.
The 7,000 who daily attended his recent crusade in St. Louis were greeted as
they walked in by a large sign that read: "THIS MEETING IS NOT FOR PHARISEES,
SADUCEES, AND WOULDN'T SEES."  This is how RHB poisons the well to prevent any
dissenters from resisting.

TBN founders Paul and Jan Crouch have accepted RHB's explanation for the
phenomenon as a move of God bringing people to experience the "JOY" of the Lord.
The proof text is Romans 14:17 "For the kingdom of God is...righteousness and
peace and JOY in the Holy Spirit."  In the May 1994 issue of TBN's newsletter
they state, "Laughter is a seemingly new demonstration of the Presence and Power
of the Holy Spirit...People are literally over-powered with laughter in the
Spirit at his (RHB) meetings."

The word "over-powered" is well put.  At an RHB meeting a lady testified that
when she first walked in and saw everyone laughing she thought they were all
crazy and she was frightened.  Then her friend convinced her to go along with it
and when she finally did she couldn't control the laughter coming from her.  She
said this also scared her and made her stomach hurt.  As she spoke the people
all around her were chuckling in spite of the inappropriateness of the moment.
The testimony of losing control hardly sounds like a manifestation of God.  For
His Word says:

      "And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.  For
      God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches
      of the saints."  1 Corinthians 14:32-33

So, the following syllogism would apply:

      God is not the author of confusion.
      Rodney's meetings are full of confusion.
      God is not the author of Rodney's meetings.

So-called "holy laughter" has been seen in pockets of charismatic circles in the
past but never in so sweeping a way as today due to RHB's popularity.  On a
recent TBN broadcast of an RHB meeting Marilyn Hickey and her husband, Wallace,
joined right in with the laughter.  Mr. Hickey took over the microphone and
spoke an unbiblical word: "I can prophesy at the drop of a hat," he chuckled.
"And I can drop the hat myself."  He went on, "God is new and he's a growing
person as anything that is alive...God would will that everyone in eternity
would be as he is, never old, ever young, a growing thing" (something the Bible
contradicts, Malachi 3:6; Hebrews 13:8).  To confuse God's divine nature with
that of His creation is an essential false doctrine of the New Age movement.  It
is quite clear that Pastor Hickey, not God, dropped the hat.  RHB looked amused
by the false prophecy.

Teaching about Jesus is mysteriously missing from Howard-Browne's meetings.
This is another clue that God is not at work, for Jesus said, "When the
Comforter is come...He shall testify of Me" (John 15:26).  Yet RHB does not
teach scripture at his meetings, his messages usually consist of testimonies of
strange manifestations he has witnessed at other meetings.  He boasts of people
being stuck to the floor, unable to get up for hours and of others being struck
dumb for long periods of time.  These stories prime the pump to insure that the
people manifest the desired results.  Peer pressure does the rest.  People go
along with it for fear that they will be eyed suspiciously by their friends who
might judge them as unspiritual if they resist.

Now it has been reported that holy laughter has taken over conferences held by
John Wimber's Vineyard.  And, the laughter has degenerated into people barking
like dogs and roaring like lions.  And 9-year-old children in a Vineyard Sunday
school were encouraged to fall under the laughing spirit, being told that the
Holy Spirit was "on people."

Word-faith teacher Kenneth Hagin wrote in his May 1994 newsletter, "On Wednesday
evening, spontaneous Holy Spirit-inspired laughter broke forth throughout the
congregation...This same strong move...simultaneously erupted in both the
children's and youth services.  As thousands yielded to the move of the Holy
Ghost in laughter, Brother Hagin asked people to come forward who felt bound and
unable to yield to the spirit of joy that permeated the building...[they] laid
hands on those who came forward to 'loose them and let them go.'"

Not to be outdone, Charles and Frances Hunter, in their Summer 1994 newsletter,
say "there is a new wind of the Spirit blowing, and it's bringing joy, joy, joy!
Not only joy, it's bringing a vocal joy, or Holy Laughter, right along with it."
Like RHB they claim that people are "getting drunk on the power of the Holy
Spirit."  To use that illustration in a literal way misses the point made in the
book of Acts.  Those that accused the apostles of getting drunk were the
scoffers; the apostles would never have used that themselves since it was a
derogatory statement.

Some experience-driven Christians may join in the laughter but these spectacles
do not make me laugh, but cry.  The Christians I've spoken to who have witnessed
this feel grieved in their spirits to see God getting the blame for such utter
carnality.  This is surely not the kind of joy that God manifests in the life of
His believers.  One eyewitness said, "They call it a revival, but there is no
spirit of love."  Another concerned sister noted "the noise at the meetings
sounds like mocking voices from hell.  I feel that it is the devil laughing at
the church at how gullible we are.  It nauseated me!"  Other discerning
Christians have testified of the ill wind they felt in their spirits and a sick
feeling in the pit of their stomachs even as they were encouraged to "let it
bubble out your belly" by RHB.

Reports have come in that the phenomenon is splitting churches apart.  Pastors
who make a stand against it are losing their people to churches that accept it
as a "move of God."  At a recent Calvary Chapel Pastors Leadership meeting,
Chuck Smith warned the other pastors to be aware of the strange fire and to take
a stand against it coming into Calvary Chapels.

Laughter can be deceptive and does not necessarily reveal the truth of the inner
reality.  The Bible says, "Even in laughter the heart is sorrowful; and the end
of that mirth is heaviness" (Proverbs 14:13).  (Several witnesses have reported
that it is indeed not a happy or joyful environment, but an empty, dark
atmosphere.)  Laughters is the response to something funny, yet there is nothing
humorous about people laughing over nothing.  In fact, if you were walking down
the street being approached by someone laughing loudly over nothing, you would
do your best to get out of his path.  There's a good reason for such aversion,
the man has probably lost his senses.

Laughter used in a biblical sense usually describes scorners (Psalms 59:8;
Proverbs 1:26; Matthew 9:24, etc.).  The spectacles at Rodney Howard-Browne's
crusades are scornful occurrences.  They make a mockery of the Gospel of the
Lord Jesus Christ who is the One who should be exalted, whose name is blessed
forever and ever.

    .46
    
    Amen and Amen!

    Excellent post, Mike!  Thanks for sharing that.  My knee-jerk reaction
    to this portion was a cold shiver:
    	"She shouts "Dear Jesus" and the man orders her not to
    	 pray but to submit to the power."  
    
    That should raise a few eyebrows right there.  Does this sound okay?
    Someone who wants the Spirit of God is told NOT TO PRAY TO JESUS?
    I think I would be making tracks out of there quickly.  
    
    God Bless,
    Janet

 Thanks, Mike...




Jim

    Howdy All,
    
      I pray that we not get thrown around by every "wind" of doctrine but
    seek the Holy Scriptures daily........
    
    
    				Fonz

    Mike,
    
    Thanks for posting that article.  I'll compare it with the Charisma
    article.  At this point I have to make a distinction in my own thinking
    between a legitimate blessing of God and what appears to be going on in
    these meetings (I am presuming the article to be an accurate reporting
    of what was going on).  As far as the Paul and Jan Crouch go, they will
    jump on any bandwagon that comes along (see the June 9th topic).  I
    don't know anything about Brown but there are some other names in there
    that hit a nerve with me.  However, I don't want to throw the baby out
    just yet.  As I said before, counterfeits (if that's what this is) 
    neither validate nor invalidate a true experience.
    
    Thanks again,
    
    Kent
     

 
 I found myself wondering if we could give the Holy Spirit credit for something
 that would require a woman to be covered so as not to expose their under-
 garments.



 Jim

    Not in my Bible!
    
    Mike the Watchman ;-)

> 
> I found myself wondering if we could give the Holy Spirit credit for
> something that would require a woman to be covered so as not to expose
> their undergarments.

No, but if we were still adolescents, we could walk through the appropriate
section of a department store singing "How firm a foundation, ye saints of
the Lord..."

/john

 Thud...

    ;-)  I'll have to try that on my next trip to the mall!
    

 I know there's a pun or 2 here, but I'll resist the temptation.





Jim

      I can't picture Jesus having done this.

    > No, but if we were still adolescents, we could walk through the
    > appropriate section of a department store singing "How firm a 
    > foundation, ye saints of the Lord...
    
    I'm happy to say that this caused me to "laugh" in a controlled,
    ladylike fashion.  ;-)
    
    Janet

This note has been copied from chit chat. Basically I've been quite sceptical
about laughing in the Spirit etc. - last night God changed my opinion in a 
wonderful way.  

    
    This is Ben the amazingly blessed and blitzed one checking in with a
    testimony to warm your hearts and encourage you (either that or I'll
    get kicked out of the conference!)
    
    Last night I went to a big outreach in Portsmouth. The meeting was
    started off by a mini concert from Vinesong (they are at Southampton
    next Saturday 29th - if you can get there go 'cos you will be blessed).
    Their music was quiet, very beautiful and so so anointed. Because the
    music wasn't overpowering there was no way anyone could claim that "the
    Spirit was whooped up" - their ministry flowed with the anointing of
    the Holy Spirit and He ministered in my heart in a very beautiful way.
    
    After Vinesong there was a testimony of a girl who, two nights
    previous, had receievd prayer for a serious injury that had left her in
    agony and needing crutches to walk - she was running, leaping and
    dancing - and she had led 4 people to the Lord during the day through
    her testimony.
    
    Then the preacher came on (can't remember his name). He started praying
    for the leaders who become totally drunk in the Spirit, laughing,
    rejoicing etc. I sat near the back with my cynical thoughts thinking
    "if this is from God then I want to receive it, but Lord help me".
    After a while my thoughts turned to "God, I want this!!" And guess
    what..... I got it!!!  I got prayed for by some of the elders of the
    church we were at and fell under the power of God. After a while I got
    up (somewhat stunned), stood around for a while and then decided to get
    prayed for again - and down I went again. After a longer while I got up
    - feeling decidedly shaky. Vinesong started singing again, and the
    Beauty of God ministered in my heart and then another man came up and
    said "Do ytou want to receive prayer?" - Well, 3 is a good number so I
    said yes and was soon flat on my back again. Near me there was a man
    laughing in the Spirit - I managed to sit up (sort of) and saw this guy
    trying to get up, but every time he did his son would come over (who
    was totally drunk in the Spirit) and pray for him and blow on him (I'm
    laughing as I think of this) - his dad would try to stop him but he
    wouldn't and his dad would just end up flat out again laughing
    uncontrollably). I beckoned to the son , who came over and started
    blowing on me (and man I felt more than just this kids breath blowing
    on me) I just doubled up lauging and could not stop. And, just like the
    other guy - every time I tried to get up this kid would come over and
    start blowing on us and praying for us. Eventually me and the dad (and
    the kids brother) managed to control ourselves and pray for the kid who
    kept praying for us - that sorted him out!!! For quite a while the four
    of us were just laughing and rejoicing and praying for each other. I'm
    not sure how we got back from Portsmouth but it was wonderful and I
    praise God for touching me in a fantastic way.
    
    I hope this has encouraged you - if you feel sceptical about this kind
    of thing then take comfort from this - so did I until the desire in my
    spirit to experience Gods blessing in this way overcame the power of
    my scepticism and reservation.
    
    
    Ben

    re: -1
    
      Hi Ben,
    
        I just want to understand...
    
        What validates this experience as from God?
    
        Was it how you and others felt?  Was it some sudden enlightenment
        regarding His word?  Was it how others felt and their witness to
        you?
    
        As a result of this experience, has your heart been cleansed so
        as to more closely resemble your Master's?
    
        Just wondering.
    
                                                       God Bless,
    
                                                       Tony

>    Eventually me and the dad (and
>    the kids brother) managed to control ourselves and pray for the kid who
>    kept praying for us - that sorted him out!!! 

What did you pray, Ben?

    Tony
    
    I've walked with God for 4� years, being part of a fellowship that has
    a Pastor who has over 60 years experience walking with God who is a
    solid teacher of Gods word. I have been 'spiritually brought up' to
    test everything - not to take anyones word for it (even my pastors) and
    to let the truth become the foundation of my walk. I believe that the
    teaching and experience I have had up till now has given me a fair
    amount of discernment and I fiurmly believe that last night God wanted
    to touch me in the way He did, I have read papers giving scriptural
    answers to this experience and I am convinced that this is from God. 
    
    You may also like to know that Gerald Coates did a seminar and London
    Bible College last week which a friend of mine attended. LBC is noted
    for being reserved  but even some of the lecturers were overcome by the
    Spirit and experienced all that we are discussing here. I have also
    heard that RT Kendall (one of the UKs most prominent thelogians and
    confessed 'non-charismatics') stood up at a meeting where this type of
    thing was happening and announced that this was not of God. After the
    meeting he asked for prayer from Gerald Coates and ended up laughing in
    the Spirit. When such respected men of God are touched in this way then
    I think we need to rethink and repray over our beliefs.
    
    Today I feel light, I have more confidence to witness about Jesus and I
    feel more love for Jesus than I have for a long time. I have ministered
    to a christian brother and I believe I am shining a brighter light
    today than I have for a long time.
    
    I do not believe looking at the laughter in itself is the answer - I
    believe we need to look at the cause of the laughter - to see it as a
    response to the wonderful work God has done within.
    
    Ben

    >    Eventually me and the dad (and
    >    the kids brother) managed to control ourselves and pray for the
         kid who
    >    kept praying for us - that sorted him out!!!
    
    >>What did you pray, Ben? 
    
    We prayed that God would touch him again (we didn't touch him) - and in
    doing so he fell over.
    
    I know this sounds bizarre - but when the disciples were accused of
    being drunk they must have been doing some pretty bizarre things to be
    accused of it.
    
    You may also be pleased to know that quite a few people came forward
    for salvation last night (I don't know about the previous nights
    because I wasn't there).
    
    Ben

I have four children.

I have four distinct children.  Each is unique and the express themselves
differently; sometimes very differently.  Each is my child and loved 
by me in their different expressions.  They each love me.

Dad

    btw - that same issue of the Christian Sentinel has another article
    about a radio teacher named Joyce Meyer who also participates in this. 
    If there's any interest, I'll try to post it.
    
    let me know,
    Mike

    I'd like to testify to what has been happening in my life since being
    touched so wonderfully last week by God. I hope and pray that it will
    help all who have contributed to this topic to understand, through a
    first-hand testimony, a little better what goes on in a christian when 
    God moves in this way.
    
    I'm aware that when recounting what God has done in your life you can
    sound proud or even bigotted, if what I write comes over in this way
    please forgive me - I only want to glorify God and edify the body of
    Christ.
    
    
    On thursday I was feeling quite tired and (spiritually) thirsty. I went
    to Portsmouth to hear a band - not to seek an experience. As God moved
    in that place I was 'slain' in the Spirit and found myself laughing and
    feeling very light headed (and light-spirited). After the meeting I
    felt more free and uninhibited than I have donme for a long time. The
    next morning I was bursting with the feeling of this new life and the
    christians around me could feel the Holy Spirit flowing from me
    (remember Jesus said that Springs of living water would flow from
    within us - John 7:38). Later that evening I had an intercessors prayer
    meeting with my Pastors wife (who has walked with God for 60 years). We
    both felt a new anointing on our prayers, more victorious in our
    prayers, more in tune with the Holy Spirit, more sensitive to the Holy
    Spirit and ,at times, dound ourselves laughing in the Spirit again.
    
    On Saturday I felt the warmth of God inside me and prayed on and off
    throughout the day, never losing the sense that God was present. In the
    evening I went out with my brothers (I need to point out here that my
    family has always been emotionally closed up with each other - we
    havenever had the ability to open up and reveal our hearts, we have had
    large walls between us). As I was driving out to meet them I felt God
    say to me "Tonight Jesus is going for a drink with your brothers - sit
    back and enjoy it" I felt enveloped in Gods love all night and had an
    incredible boldness to open up about my faith, their lives (they are
    not christians) and my family in a way I never could have done before.
    I cannot stress enough at this point the breakthrough this is for me!!
    
    In our meeting yesterday morning I was leading. Again I felt totally
    free and, to the glory of God, I was able to minister to the church. 
    Throughout the weekend I have felt closer to God, I have felt my
    attention drawn more to Jesus, and I have enjoyed a new boldness to witness
    for Jesus. It hasn't all been living ion cloud 9 - I have felt deeper
    emotions for spiritual things - a closer unity with the heart of Jesus.
    
    There are 2 points of caution to add though:
    
    1 - Having received a touch like this you need to be aware that you can
    slip into "seeking the experience NOT the Lord". 
    
    2 - As Keith Green sang "When I'm doing well help me to never seek a
    crown"
    
    Maybe these weaknesses are unique to me, but it's important to note
    that our experiences are different every time we seek God, and it is
    God we must seek, not the experience. And When feeling so close to God
    we must remember that it is by His grace that we are in that place, it
    is by His grace that we can enjoy these blessings.
    
    I hope this has helped you to understand the situation a bit more
    (sorry to go on a bit!)
    
    Ben 
    
    

	
	Thank you, Ben, for entering that, and God Bless you (again!)

	Karen

    Ben,
    
    Thanks so much for your testimony.  The problem you described (seeking
    the experience and not the source) has always been a problem.  It's not
    unique to any individual.  How many people followed Jesus for the sake
    of the miracles?  I believe it was simply described as multitudes. 
    Keep your eyes on Him and let the river flow.
    
    God bless,
    
    Kent
    

    This trend has now crept into Phoenix First Assembly of God where Pastor
    Tommy Barnett is the senior pastor.  My brother-in-law, who attends
    there, says there are also those who are growling.  
    
    BTW - this church recently had a conference for all metro area pastors. 
    Pastor Tommy Barnett got up and said God gave him a prophecy that he is
    to be the head of all area pastors and they are to report to him in
    everything they do.  The pastors from my church got up and walked out.
    
    Mike

 Growling?

    Yes, "Growling in the Spirit."  I don't find that in my Bible either. 
    I can't wait to hear how this glorifies God and edifies the "believer."

    Mike
    
    I'm sceptical about what the pastor said and the growling - but I don't
    mind being proved wrong (but I might take some convincing!!)
    
    Ben

I was mailed this yesterday :


behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears, and set thine heart upon all
that I shall shew thee; for to the intent that I might shew them unto thee art
thou brought hither: declare all that thou seest to the house of Israel.

That was a verse of scripture from Ezekiel 40:4. It is also the verse which
struck a brother of mine at our church last week, I shall explain. Last night at
our Sunday evening worship Ian stood up and shared. Ian went on holiday last
week and expected nothing more than a holiday, during his daily reading the
verse above leap out of the page and struck between the eyes (to use his words),
he pondered on what it could mean and then thought nothing more of it. At the
end of the week he was badgered into going to one of these Toronto Blessing
meetings which are currently all the fashion in Glasgow. I will now try and
retell what he told us:

It was held in a wembley stadium like conference centre seating a couple of
thousand people. There was a normal worship meeting to start with praise and
singing and the like. It was a good worship session and the atmosphere was
fairly electric. Then one of the chaps from Toronto (yes from Toronto) got up on
stage and started to explain about the blessing. He stated clearly that all this
was for the glorification of Jesus. He said that it was Jesus' love and  that
Jesus wanted to reproduce this blessing all around the world. Then then chap
from Toronto said that 'it' was going to happen tonight (to use his words) They
then brought up four lads who had been beaten up outside the conference centre.
They prayed for them and they all fell on the floor, Ian said that as far as he
could see none where pushed. However one of the boys went into what can be only
described as a shaking fit, with his limbs jerking about all over the place.
Then the chap said to his wife "You look fairly stable" and prayed for her at
which point she fell on the floor and went into what Ian described as the most
violent fit he had ever seen. Other events including people touching their toes
and then straighting up and bending backwards and then repeating the movement,
all very quickly (in the space of about a second Ian said). He also heard
several blood curdling screams which the chap from Toronto said was a prophetic
Amen!!!! And there was some laughing. Ian left as soon as was possible. Ian
descibed the things that he saw as unacceptable.

Then Dave (an elder) stood up and read from Acts 10 when Peter goes to see
Cornelius. I suggest that you read it while noting the following things.

- In all cases it is God who takes the initiative, not man.
- Mans role is always to hear and obey.
- Remember that Peter was about to break thousands of years of Jewish law.
- See how specific God is, this is an exceptional thing he wants Peter to do,
and God is very specific about the arrangements, all Peter had to do was hear
and obey.
- Note how Cornelius (a man without the Holy Spirit) was told to ask for Peter
by name and place!
- Note how all things from God are spontaneous, God takes the lead, God decides
when never man.


Then Ron (another elder) shared the passage Luke 9:49

"And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name;
and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him,
Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us."

Ron pointed out that Jesus did not say that it was alright for others to do
these things, neither did he say that it was evil for others to do these things,
he just saidm "Forbid him not".

Ron likened this to John 21:22

"what is that to thee? follow thou me."


Then we had a word of prophsey from the Lord

"I have not put you into a boat to lean over the sides and strain your necks for
missed opportunities for I am in the boat."

Well it was a very thought provoking evening, I now know where I stand on the
Toronto blessing. Amen. I would like to add a verse as well, I am sure that this
verse has been used many times while discussing the Toronto blessing, but here
it is again....


Matthew 7:15
"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly
they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather
grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth
good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot
bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every
tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me,
Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will
of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord,
have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in
thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never
knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."


Closing thoughts, are people in violent fits called up by men "good fruit" or
are these men those "that work iniquity"?

Have you looked for Jesus where you are now? Why are you looking elsewhere?


May God bless you all and give the discernment to not be deceived by the ways of
the wicked one.


Gary.

 I received something in the US Mail yesterday from John McCarthur which
 spoke of "growling" at a "laughing revival".




Jim

    .75
    
    Amen and Amen!

      Just a rather extreme aspect of the charismatic phenomenon.
      Stay clear from it.
    
                                               Tony

    
    how sad
    

    stinking flesh is also the pride that makes people base a ministry on
    something that isn't even in God's Word and are afraid to admit it now
    that it's been brought to an ugly extreme.

� 613.80 

Very true...

 "Why do you look at the speck of dust in your brother's eye and pay no 
  attention to the plank in your own eye?  How can you say to your 
  brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye', when all the time there 
  is a plank in your own eye?  You hypocrite, first take the plank out of 
  your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your 
  brother's eye."
						Matthew 7:3

We clearly need to be very careful what we let into our experience - 
Matthew 24:24 warns us of false Christs and false prophets in the last 
times - but equally, let us beware of quenching the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 
5:19).  Ultimately we are responsible for our own position before the 
LORD.  And that is never complete in this life...

						God bless
							Andrew

    Often times people mock that which they do not understand. I have
    experienced the joy of the Lord so immensely while spending time
    *alone* with Him that I often found (and still find) myself at times
    laughing out loud. This is not an everyday experience and I am
    confident that my expression of this joy is not self motivated.
    What would the purpose be?
    
    Many times at church(not always) during praise and worship, as I come
    into His presence with oustretched arms, and genuinely offer up my love
    and thanks do I find myself swaying back and forth, yet there are no
    scriptures that substantiate this experience either.
    
    What am I saying? Basically that the joy of the Lord is expressed by
    individuals in many unique ways. We need balance. Lets not be too hasty
    in sticking to the letter of the law that we restrict the moving up the
    Spirit.
    
    Understandably there are many instances where a group of people will
    self generate this "joy" and behave in ways that are not becoming of
    Christians.I would hope that any one with an iota of discernment would
    be able to distinguish clearly between the moving of the Spirit and the
    flaunting of the flesh. 
    
    Growling:
    Convulsions:
    Seizures or "twitchings":
     
    These(in my opinion) characterize demonic manifestations.
    
    My perception of these experiences in my life are not dependent on
    anothers view or interpretation.  The joy of the Lord is enough to put
    (at least) a smile on anybodys face.  :)
    
    Sylvain
    
    

    I can't quote scripture here, but I know that in the gospels people
    were thrown around by demons when they came face to face with Jesus.
    Consider the man in the tombs, what kind of voice did Legion have who
    spoke from him (I don't think it was the queens english!!)
    
    I know that it's easy to go overboard on experience and feelings but I
    think it is far worse tp be so shut up in our own understanding that we
    refuse to let Jesus in.
    
    Jesus was a radical man. The religeous people of the day hated him
    because he challenged their intellect and traditions with which they
    were comfortable in and proud of.
    
    I think the soundest advice can be found in Acts 5:35-39:
    
    "...consider carefully what you intend to do to these men........leave
    these men alone, let them go, for if their purpose or activity is of
    human origin it will fail. But if it is from God you will not be able
    to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God"
    
    If souls are being saved through this 'experience' (which I saw at the
    meeting I attended) then we should be rejoicing. If people are finding
    release from hurts, sins, sickness etc. then we should be rejoicing
    with them. Jesus healed a man on the sabbath and the pharisees were too
    screwed up Jesus breaking the sabbath to rejoice in the fact that God
    had healed a man and changed his life. Jesus forgave a mans sins and
    he was healed. The pharisees couldn't understand how Jesus could
    forgive sins because only the pure in heart see God (Matt. 5:8) and
    they lost out. The pharisees crucified Jesus.
    
    Be careful you are not criticising the work of the Holy Spirit. I can
    understand your scepticism 'cos I felt it too until God proved me
    wrong, I can also understand your fear of the unknown, but look again at
    your Bibles, you may find more than you realised:
    
    John 18:6 - Jesus simply said "I am he" in the garden and all the
    soldiers fell to the ground.
    
    2 Chronicles 7:2 - The priests could not do their religeous duty
    because of the Glory of God filling the temple.
    
    Psalm 126:1&2 When the Lord brought back the captives to Zion we were
    like men who dreamed. Our mouths were filled with laughter our tongues
    with songs of joy
    
    There are many others
    
    Ben

      Last Sunday I attended the worship meeting at a charismatic church
      some friends of ours go to, where in the past few weeks they have
      been participating in this laughing revival.  I really felt that the
      pastor and the people had a sincere desire to know God and to have
      the Spirit's presence powerfully felt and known amongst them.  I
      think this is a good thing.  However, I also felt that in the pastor's
      great desire to see this happen, and in his zeal to do what he could
      to foster it, a very critical element in our Christian life got missed 
      and/or mis-construed.  

      It is the Living God, a personal Being, who fills us to the measure, it 
      is not an impersonal force or phenoman that takes place.  God is the 
      initiator.  Our focus should be:

         1) to love God with all that we are: 
            humbling ourselves before Him, repenting from the sin that 
            mars our relationship with Him, worshipping and praising Him, 
            and seeking to know Him better through study of His word and 
            prayer

         2) to love our neighbor as ourself: 
            seeking to do good, providing help out of our material abundance
            to those in need, encouraging one another on in faith and good 
            deeds, and illuminating the truth about our compassionate
            Messiah (be a light to the world).  

      God will do the rest.  Our focus should not be to seek after euphoric 
      experience.  Joy will come naturally as the realization of God grace, 
      mercy, power, and compassion is made known to us through study and 
      through the power of the Holy Spirit.

      I am in the midst of writing a letter to the pastor voicing my concerns,
      and if it seems appropriate later, will modify parts of it to put in 
      this string.  When I was thinking and praying about this, I found some 
      scriptures which I think apply in this situation, and help guide our
      approach to this and all aspects of our lives.

      Again, though I think some of the practices are not right and the focus
      of some of this stuff is misdirected, being overcome with joy when God 
      reaches out and touches you is not a bad thing and should not be feared.

      Leslie

>    I can't quote scripture here, but I know that in the gospels people
>    were thrown around by demons when they came face to face with Jesus.
>    Consider the man in the tombs, what kind of voice did Legion have who
>    spoke from him (I don't think it was the queens english!!)
    
    I've seen it personally.  They get pretty worked up when you just take
    out your Bible, never mind opening it up.
    
    Mike

    looks like the Who's Who of the Faith Cult.

    Three of the Elders of our church (Telopea Church Of Christ) have just
    returned from a trip to Toronto, the UK and the US. They have seen the
    effects of the Blessing and it is now starting to happen here.
    
    It's kind of scary, but I am looking forward to the effect it will have
    and for my chance to share God's blessing.
    
    Has anyone else received the refreshing/revival ? How about a little
    bit of a discussion. I think many here will find it very uplifting.
    
    Last Sunday, the first night our Pastor has been back he spoke of what
    he saw in Toronto, but which he did not experience himself. During the
    service people were prayed for and one went down, one of the people
    praying for someone else went down, another girl started shaking and
    giggling, while seemingly remaining completely with it, another guy
    turned into a rocket ship and started bouncing around the room.
    
    Notably, one man, who has just recently started bible college and has
    The Lord work greatly in his life during the last year, admitted his
    scepticism but said he was willing to give it a go. He had no outward
    effect and I haven't had a chance to talk to him to see if God was with
    him or whether his attitude had a negative effect. He truly wanted it,
    I am sure. But I don't think he expected it to happen.
    
    The most amazing thing was the Pastor, who went down for the first time
    late in the evening after the main part of the service had finished.
    
    Regards
    Peter
    
    I'll keep you posted about The Lord's work in my neck of the woods.
    

    Re: .108
    
    they've exhausted my grace and patience from prior experiences. 
    Fortunately for them, God's grace is everlasting.

�    Fortunately for them, God's grace is everlasting.

Or, even more to the point, infinite ... ;-)

							Andrew

    is it now, Lord?

                         DEFENDING THE FAITH
"Holy" Laughter - Toronto Blessing" ("New Wine" or Spiritual Deception?)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            by J.S. Noble

"Holy" laughter is not a new phenomena.  What is new about "holy" laughter is
that it is no longer limited to certain fringe Pentecostal groups, but is
spreading through mainstream Christianity with the help of favorable press by
two "Christian" networks - Trinity Broadcasting Network and the Christian
Broadcasting Network.  A year ago only a small percentage of Christians had
heard of "holy" laughter.  Today, however, most evangelicals area aware of the
phenomena.  What most are not aware of is that "holy" laughter is just one
manifestation in a group of manifestations that characterize a growing
movement - a movement sometimes referred to as the "great end-times revival."
To analyze "holy" laughter necessitates examining the "revival."  This
includes examining the manifestations, as well as analyzing key doctrines and
proof-texts used to support these manifestations.

South African "evangelist" Rodney Howard-Browne (RHB) is generally credited
with launching the American "laughing revival."  Howard-Browne claims that, in
1979, he received a special visitation from God: "It felt like liquid fire -
like someone poured gasoline over me and set me on fire...The best way I can
describe it is that it was as shocking as if I had unscrewed a light bulb from
a lamp and put my finger in the socket.  I *knew* it was God." (1)  Since then,
RHB, the self-proclaimed "Holy Ghost bartender," has been serving his "new wine"
to congregations throughout North America.  One church in particular, the
Toronto Airport Vineyard, has become the church to which pastors from
throughout the world now flock to experience this "new wine," which they in
turn "bring back" to their churches.  This phenomena is now popularly referred
to as the "Toronto Blessing" (TB).  The "Toronto Blessing" includes "holy"
laughter, but it includes other manifestations as well.  

The "revival" is characterized by a number of manifestations, any or all of
which can be observed in a single service.  The manifestations can be separated
into 4 categories.  The first manifestation category is "holy" laughter.  "Holy"
laughter is loud, uncontrollable laughter that breaks out among members of the
congregation.  Proponents stress that "holy" laughter has New Testament
precedent - they identify it with the events recorded in Acts 2, where the
apostles are accused by some in the crowd of having "had too much wine."  Old
and New Testament verses mentioning laughter and joy are also invoked as textual
support.  The second category is that of being "struck dumb" in the Spirit.
This is considered testimony.  The individual will (seemingly) attempt to
deliver a verbal testimony and instead will be unable to speak during the entire
"testimony."  Saying absolutely nothing becomes the testimony.

The third category, that of being "slain in the Spirit," has taken on a new
characteristic in this movement.  Instead of being "out" under the power of the
"Spirit" for just a few minutes.  In this manifestation people can be out for
several hours.  Like more common examples of being slain in the Spirit, this too
requires the assistance of the evangelist.  RHB has developed his own unique
style of imparting this "blessing."  After having the potential recipients
stand, RHB will walk slowly down the line, place his hands on the people and say
such things as, "Fill!  Ho ho.  Fill!  Ho ho, ha ha.  Out of your belly let it
bubble.  Ha ha."  RHB has also been known to tell people, "Don't pray about it,"
implying that praying to God will prevent a person from receiving this so-called
"blessing."  The fourth manifestation is one that is generally *not* seen by
television audiences.  One can occasionally see people waving their arms as
they run around the auditorium, but this is only the very mildest form of this
supposed "prophetic" manifestation.  Rather than describe it, I will quote at
length from John Arnott:

     And so now we're starting to see people prophetically acting like lions
     and oxen and eagles and even warriors.  We had a phone call one time is
     said," one of our congregation's been acting like an eagle flying around
     the room.  We can't get them to stop, what do we do?"  And we thought,
     you know, throw a rabbit out in the middle of the floor and maybe they'll
     come down [laughter].  But seriously, it's a wonderful thing and we've
     seen it spontaneous in Steve Wood's church from St. John, New Brunswick
     on the east coast, we had all 4 of those manifestations happening at the
     same time.  So what did the man look like?  He looked like a warrior,
     just yelling Ahhhhh!!!!  You know, you see that, our first inclination is
     "That's demonic."  But that is too simplistic a view.  It could be the
     flesh or more probably, if you know the person and their heart and their
     integrity, it just may be the Holy Spirit putting an empowering, like a
     warrior on them.  But we saw all 4 of them going at once.  It scared
     people so bad that many of them ran right out of the meeting.  I was
     amazed, myself.  This one little keyboard player lady, about 115 lbs.,
     she's on all fours just snorting and pawing the ground like an angry bull.
     That went on for a while and she's frightened.  She doesn't know "why is
     this happening to me?"  She ran out of the room at one point...  So does
     that help with the animal sounds?  Officially, we're saying, "we don't
     know," cause we don't know.  Why is that guy roaring like a lion?  I
     don't know.  I've never done that.  Why don't you ask him?  See what he
     says.  See if he says it's good or not.  See if it's changing his life
     for the good. (2)

In evaluating this "revival" to determine whether or not it is of God, we must
evaluate it solely on the basis of conformity to Scriptural truths.  Whether or
not these manifestations were evident (as proponents like to claim) in historic
revivals is irrelevant.  *The written Word of God is the standard by which all
things are to be tested.*

1 Corinthians 12 states, "Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is
given for the common good...All these are the work of one and the same Spirit,
and He gives them to each one, just as He determines."  That our sovereign God
determines how and when the Holy Spirit will be manifest in the lives of
believers is Scriptural.  God is sovereign.  The Holy Spirit gives spiritual
gifts to each person according to *His* pleasure.  God is omnipresent.  He does
not reside in a certain location from which He pours out spiritual
manifestations on those who have come to visit Him.  In light of these
Scriptural truths, one can conclude that flying to Toronto, or attending a RHB
meeting, to obtain "new Wine" violates the clear teaching of Scripture.

"Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in
tongues.  But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way" (1
Corinthians 14:39).  1 Corinthians 14 mandates orderly worship.  "Holy" laughter
and the TB violate this mandate.  It is not uncommon in these gatherings to hear
laughter or animal noises burst forth during, and continue in conjunction with,
formal prayer.  Services have been know to halt entirely: the message being
replaced by unbridled outbursts of laughing, screaming, growling, and roaring.
Again, this is a clear violation of Scripture.

"For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and Him
crucified" (1 Corinthians 2:2).  One of the most notable aspects of "holy"
laughter and TB is that the focus is on the miraculous, and how this is the
beginning of the "great end-times revival."  Jesus Christ is usually given only
token lip-service if He is mentioned at all.  The primary focus of this movement
is not on Jesus Christ, but on *manifestations*.  This is not Scriptural.  While
the NT admonishes Christians to receive and exercise spiritual gifts for the
building up of the body, it is Christ alone that must be exalted - *never the
gifts*.  When Jesus Christ is mentioned in this "revival" it is often in a
ridiculous, if not blasphemous context.  For example, Charles and Francis Hunter
have been known to have one of their staff bound across the stage, jump and twirl
in the air a couple of times, and then fall to the floor in laughter.  The
audience is told they are "looking at Jesus."  The Happy Hunters cite Luke 10:21
as their proof-text.  They write, "To rejoice in this instance means to 'twirl'
around with reckless abandon.  Can't you just visualize Jesus with so much joy
that he twirled around with reckless abandon?  What a sight to behold!" (3)
To read such an interpretation into Luke 10:21 is eisogesis at its worst.
Clearly, such mockery indicates that the spirit instructing the "Happy Hunters"
is not the Holy Spirit.

That "holy" laughter and the TB violates Scripture is clear.  So how do
proponents of this movement justify it?  For one thing, they claim that Acts 2
is evidence that the apostles were "drunk in the Spirit," and thus were
manifesting signs similar to "holy" laughter.  That is *not* what Scripture
teaches.  Acts 2 states very clearly that the apostles were heard to be speaking
in a variety of languages, and that only *some* in the audience attempted to
explain away the phenomena by making fun of the Apostles and claiming that they
had drank "too much wine."  "Holy" laughter is in no way supported by this
chapter.

In his meetings, RHB (and others) often quote Old and New Testament passages
that refer to laughter and joy.  No Bible passage, when taken in context,
provides support for "holy" laughter.  "Holy" laughter is not found in
Scripture; those who claim that it is found in Scripture are twisting Scripture
in an attempt to legitimize the movement.  The Bible teaches that this type of
thing would occur in the Last Days in 2 Timothy 4:3-4.  RHB attempts to justify
being "struck dumb in the Spirit" by referring to Luke 1:20: "It's Scriptural:
in Bible days people like John the Baptist's father Zacharia, were stuck dumb
and couldn't speak." (4)  One wonders if RHB has ever bothered to read Luke 1:20
in context.  Luke says that Zacharia lost his ability to speak as a *punishment*
for disbelief!  Likewise, sticking people to the floor with "Holy Ghost glue" is
not Scriptural.  In Scripture, people *do* fall prostate before the power and
majesty of the Lord, but this occurs when men recognize their total unworthiness
to stand in the presence of a Holy God.  Nowhere in Scripture do we read of
comic-strip manifestation "gifts" such as the one RHB describes: "All she could
do was flap her hands.  So she was lying there flapping away - flap, flap, flap,
flap." (5)

As is the case with RHB's "new wine," the other TB manifestations find no
support in Scripture.  Though I have already quoted Arnott as stating that they
(the leadership) cannot explain why the animal noises are manifesting, he and
other Vineyard leaders do offer one "possible" explanation:

     Byron Mode from Texas wrote a beautiful explanation of what he saw.  See,
     we saw this grown man in a starched pink shirt with a nice tie and
     everything, in front of 300 pastors roaring like a lion and walking
     around like a lion and all kinds of stuff.  That's what we saw, and I'm
     thinking, "oh please, Lord, don't let this go weird, Lord, please, this
     is, I don't understand this" [laughter].  What I didn't see was the
     incredible vision that he was having at the time, about the gates of hell
     being disintegrated by the power of God and hundreds of captives being set
     free.  So, I'll take the vision, Lord, but couldn't you do it a little,
     you know.  But you see, those kinds of visions necessarily go along with
     an outpouring of power, kinda like Samson.  So we were kicking this issue
     around hours on end, believe me, with the Vineyard leaders.  And John
     Wimber, one day, at a luncheon table is saying things like "but I just
     don't think we can make any kind of connections in terms of theology or
     even draw any conclusions here.  I think the Scriptural weight is too
     thin, and so therefore, we want to avoid that kind of thing."  And his
     wife Carol, as only she could do in her way, is saying, "Well, wait a
     minute, John," (going back to Revelation 4 now,) "If Jesus wants to bring
     His friends to the party, don't you think we should let Him?"  That's
     good, isn't it?  That's very profound! (6)

No, that is not profound.  To invoke Revelation 4 as a possible proof text to
support Christians acting like animals is ridiculous.  Revelation 4 records
John's vision of the throne room of heaven; it cannot be used to justify the
"Toronto Blessing."  Advocates of "holy" laughter or the TB offer 3 other
reasons for accepting the phenomena.  The first is that, since Scripture does
not specifically forbid these manifestations, we should not forbid them either.
After all, we "shouldn't put the Holy Spirit in a box."  It has been already
demonstrated that these manifestations *do* violate the clear teachings of
Scripture.  All Scripture is "God-breathed" (2 Timothy 3:16); a "new revelation"
that contradicts Scripture is not of the Holy Spirit.

Second, we are told that these manifestations are producing "good fruit," and
thus must be judged on that basis.  The fruit spoken of is often listed as
restored marriages, changed lives, and fresh revelations of the love of God.  If
we are to accept "holy" laughter or TB based on these fruits then we must also
accept Mormonism and the New Age movement since their adherents also claim
similar fruits.  Good fruit that results from an experience that contradicts the
Word of God *is not* the work of the Holy Spirit.

Third, advocates of "holy" laughter and the TB claim that it must be of God
because of Matthew 7:9.  This verse *cannot* serve as a proof text to support
the manifestations.  It is the Holy Spirit who determines the gift, and it is
the Holy Spirit who determines the time.  Any attempt to force God into
bestowing spiritual gifts (which is what occurs in "holy" laughter and the TB)
is to despise God's sovereignty.  God *will* allow Christians outside of His
will to fall from fellowship - this could include accepting doctrines of demons.
Paul confirms this in 2 Corinthians 11:4.

"Holy" laughter and the TB *ARE NOT OF GOD*.  These are not manifestations of
the Holy Spirit, but rather, are the product of an unholy spirit.  In their
thirst for supernatural manifestations some Christians are abandoning sound
doctrine and are being led astray by a false gospel; a gospel that ignores Jesus
Christ and exalts miraculous experiences.  Our Lord warned that this would
happen in Matthew 24:24.  Sadly, those who are getting caught up in this
"revival" are being told to not question or hinder the manifestations (or often
the leaders promoting them).  RHB says, "Don't quench the Holy Spirit...In the
coming revival we've got to get mature enough to say, 'That's the flesh.  Don't
worry about it.'" (6)  The Bible says otherwise in Acts 17:11.

I do not want to give the impression that all those who have experienced "holy"
laughter of the TB have completely abandoned the faith.  Christians who do not
know the Word of God, or who fail to exercise discernment, can be deceived, but
they can also be restored through repentance.  An example of this deception is
evident in the earlier quote from John Arnott, where he stated that, "You know,
you see that, our first inclination is 'That's demonic.' But that is too
simplistic a view.  It could be the flesh or more probably, if you know the
person and their heart and their integrity, it just may be the Holy Spirit
putting an empowering, like a warrior on them." (8)

That these manifestations could be the result of demonic influence is *not* a
"simplistic" view.  Few Christians want to admit that they may have been
deceived by an unholy spirit, but it is clear that "holy" laughter and the TB do
not originate with the Holy Spirit.  Those who have received "holy" laughter or
the TB may be experiencing demon oppression, or they may be experiencing the
fruits of emotionalism, but they are not experiencing the Holy Spirit.
Christians who have been mislead, whether by oppression or emotionalism, *can*
be released from their bondage.  Repent before the Lord, place the Word of God
in your heart, resist the devil and he will flee from you.  Finally, find a
healthy, well-balanced church - one where the focus is, not on experiences, but
on Jesus Christ and the teaching of God's Word.

Should you still not be convinced that "holy" laughter and the TB are the
products of an unholy spirit, I leave you with 2 final quotes, and a question.
The first quote is from RHB; the second is from Wes Campbell.  Remember, these
are the testimonies of men who believe they have encountered the Holy Spirit in
a special way.  My question is this: Do these sound like the testimonies of
people who have actually experienced God the Holy Spirit, or are they the
testimonies of men who have had encounters with a deceiving spirit?

Rodney Howard-Browne
--------------------
"But I'd rather be in a church where the devil and the flesh are manifesting
than in a church where nothing is happening because people are too afraid to
manifest anything... And if a devil manifests, don't worry about that either.
Rejoice, because at least *something* is happening!" (9)

Wes Campbell
------------
"My dear, sweet wife.  She just was [sound effect] pulled into the centre of the
room and she began to shake, more violent than last night, and I just jumped
right up onto the back of the couch and I went [he screams].  I felt like
spiritual Home Alone 2, you know?  [he screams] And I'm up there scared, oh, we
were scared!  You think you were scared last night!  Scared.  You know, I don't
blame any of you for being scared.  For about the first 6 months I was scared to
go home with her at night!  I'm not kidding!  I'm not kidding!  We'd just stay
out.  Lots of times I'd just stay out late.  She'd come home, she'd want to
pray.  I don't want to pray.  I'd turn the lights on.  This is no exaggeration.
I'd turn the lights on in the house.  I'd turn the lights - I never knew when it
was going to happen.  Sometimes we'd be talking about things that maybe, you
know, we shouldn't have.  Maybe we were telling a story, or maybe we were talking
about somebody.  The slightest little thing would set her off.  The slightest
thing.  For the first year the slightest thing would set her off.  One time, one
time, somebody was just talking 'oh, we don't know if this is God.  We don't
know' and she just, I mean, she, this is Tight Brethren, Closed Brethren
person's house.  You just cannot, those of you that don't know the background,
you cannot conceive of what I'm talking about.  I am talking about the most
conservative, anti-gifts situations you can possibly believe.  We were in this
house and this girl is going 'I don't know' and all of a sudden [sound effect]
it just exploded and she came right in front of this woman, I mean, right in
front of this woman.  She's just going, she goes 'Allison, Allison, open your
eyes.' [scream]  She goes, 'This is me, Allison' and Allison - she said 'Don't
ever be ashamed of My Spirit again.'"  [Author's note: what is described here is
a form of *possession*.  Are we to believe that the Father or the Son took
possession of the speaker in order to exalt the Holy Spirit?  This is not
Scriptural - it mirrors what occurs in cases of demonic possession.]  "So I was
plumb scared.  I was just scared.  We'd go to bed, she'd sneeze in bed, I'd go
'What's the matter? What's happening?' So I don't blame anybody for the type of
feelings you're feeling.  I remember the very first time - it happened at
Christmas - I think it was about the next - 2 days after the first outpouring -
we had to go to the pastor's you know, the administerial Christmas luncheon.
*They said, 'let's bow for prayer.' I said, 'Don't.  Don't!'  These are honest,
true stories.  I said, 'Don't do it.'"* (10)

Galatians 5:22-25: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience,
kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.  Against such
things there is now law.  Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the
sinful nature with its passions and desires.  Since we live by the Spirit, let
us keep in step with the Spirit."

Sources:
--------
1. Rodney Howard-Browne, "Manifesting the Holy Ghost" (Louisville, KY, RHBEA
   Publications, 1992), p. 16, emphasis in original.
2. John Arnott, Pastor's Meeting - Airport Vineyard, Toronto, Ontario, October
   19, 1994, audiotape transcript.
3. Charles and Francis Hunter, "Holy Laughter" (Kingwood, TX: Hunter Books,
   1994) p. 32.
4. Rodney Howard-Browne, "The Coming Revival" (Louisville, KY, RHBEA
   Publications, 1991), p. 6.
5. Rodney Howard-Browne, "Manifesting the Holy Ghost" (Louisville, KY, RHBEA
   Publications, 1992), p. 26.
6. John Arnott, Pastor's Meeting - Airport Vineyard, Toronto, Ontario, October
   19, 1994, audiotape transcript.
7. Rodney Howard-Browne, "The Coming Revival" (Louisville, KY, RHBEA
   Publications, 1991), p. 6.
8. John Arnott, Pastor's Meeting - Airport Vineyard, Toronto, Ontario, October
   19, 1994, audiotape transcript.
9. Rodney Howard-Browne, "The Coming Revival" (Louisville, KY, RHBEA
   Publications, 1991), p. 6.
10. Wes Campbell, "Spiritual & Physical Manifestations of the Holy Spirit,"
    Airport Vineyard, Toronto, Ontario, October 15, 1994, audiotape transcript.

"Defending the Faith" is a bi-monthly publication of Calvary Chapel of Tigard in
Tigard, Oregon.

    I disagree.  The deception is pulling them away from God and His Word. 
    I can't believe the horror their own pastors confess to and belittle.
    Growling?!  Barking?!  Roaring?!  Acting like animals?!  
    
    As you say, Hazza, BCV!
    
    Mike

    Hazza,
    
    The Arian heresy has been around for 1600 years.
    

    Hey Mike,
    
>    Growling?!  Barking?!  Roaring?!  Acting like animals?!

    I missed that! *Really*!? THAT'S Scary! {shudder}

    In notes that are several hundred lines long, I (in this case
    mistakenly) read the first paragraph or two, and the last one - in good
    writing (I think this is where I slipped) those 2 or 3 paragraphs
    should tell you everything of importance in the article!

    Uh, still on the fence, but starting to fall off to one side.

    Harry

    p.s. thanks for the rebuke Mike - appreciated

           <<< YUKON::DISK$ARCHIVE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN.NOTE;2 >>>
                          -< The CHRISTIAN Notesfile >-
================================================================================
Note 613.115              The Laughing Revival of 1994                115 of 118
BBQ::WOODWARDC "between the Glory and the Flame"     13 lines  13-APR-1995 17:15
                       -< getting splinters in my tush >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Mike,

	I agree - we should exercise caution. But, (as Gamaliel said in
	Acts)  (paraphrased) "If this is of man, it will die out; but if it
	is of God, we won't be able to stop it."

    ... [stuff deleted]

	still reserving judgement,

				   hazza :*]

    {whew}

I have just finished reading every single word in this string! I am *wiped
out*.

Mike - I apologise for my superficial answers before.

With due consideration - I think there are people who are attending these
"meetings" seeking God, and (like Ben Price) appear to have received a
clearer vision of Christ through this.

There appear to be many more (esp. wrt the growling, barking, flapping,
"soaring", etc.) that worry me. Add to this the admonition "Don't pray!" A
(supposed) Man of God *telling* someone to *not* pray?!! No, sorry, *that*
just does not compute!

I was going to make a "non-commital" reply here, but this has gone in a
completely different direction.

Let me stress - ON THE EVIDENCE HERE - and only based on this evidence (and
there appears to be adequate testimony from both "sides" to make a
judgement) I would say that the majority of this is NOT of God. Far too
much of it lines up with the demonic possession shown in the Bible.

Let me add, my background has been Charismatic and Pentecostal - so this
'sort' of thing is not "unknown" to me.

This time though, I think satan has moved into wholesale deception - not
retail. With the lack of Teaching from the Bible (myself included) many
people have fallen for the trap that 'if it's spiritual, it must be of
God'. Unfortunately, satan too is a spiritual being, and is quite capable of
counterfeiting anything that God has produced. This last seems to imply
that here may indeed be a valid 'Holy Laughter' or 'Joy of the Lord'
(anyone remember that song?) - as my (admittedly limited) understanding is
that satan is unable to create anything new. he doesn't have an original
thought in his head!

By their fruit ye shall know them. And the fruit apparently manifest in
these 'meetings' *are* Biblical. Unfortunately, the Bible is not very
positive about these manifestations.

As I said previously - this is *scary* stuff.

Harry

    Hazza, I have a Pentecostal background as well.  I'm no stranger to
    seeing folks being "slain" or "drunk" in the Spirit, but the rest of
    these manifestations are very bothersome.  I haven't been involved with
    charismania for a few years now, when I opted for solid teaching of
    God's Word instead.  I can honestly say that I cannot find support for
    any of these activities in scripture - except being "slain in the
    Spirit."  It's in Acts 5 and it's a one-time event.  I wouldn't
    recommend it.
    
    >    Perfect love drives out all fear.
    
    the ministers involved in this report, who are actually part of the
    Toronto Blessing, seem very fearful to me.  That speaks volumes.
    
    Mike

Mike,
>    Hazza, I have a Pentecostal background as well.  I'm no stranger to
>    seeing folks being "slain" or "drunk" in the Spirit, but the rest of
>    these manifestations are very bothersome.  I haven't been involved with
>    charismania for a few years now, when I opted for solid teaching of
>   God's Word instead.  I can honestly say that I cannot find support for
>    any of these activities in scripture - except being "slain in the
>    Spirit."  It's in Acts 5 and it's a one-time event.  I wouldn't
>    recommend it.

You sound like you have had a bad experience and have got hurt. Its hard to 
detect tones in a notes, but you sound even bitter and judgemental. See I 
could throw out statements too like. I got out of________ church too as 
I opted for __________. But I choose not to fill in the blanks with
judgemental statement which do not edify anybody and only serve to slander
and cut down more than state what you opted for. Please don't take this
harsely. We need to encourage and edify not cut down.
    
As far as being "slain in the Spirit" You mention Act 5 which I am not familiar
with off hand and am not at liberty to pull out a Bible in a public "office of
the future" work area but will look it up tonight.
There are many references to people falling under the Power of God in the Bible
both believers and non believers. It indeed seems to be the reaction of our weak
flesh when in the presence of an angel or the presence of God. The actual term
"slain in the Spirit" is not Biblical but rather a term coined by man. Katheryn
Kulman (sp?) as far as that goes. If someone is interested I can post all the
references I have for Falling under the power, but will not do so just for the 
sake of argument.

>    >    Perfect love drives out all fear.
>    
>    the ministers involved in this report, who are actually part of the
>    Toronto Blessing, seem very fearful to me.  That speaks volumes.
>    
>    Mike

What do you mean by "seem very fearful to me"? I know most of the leaders in
Toronto and I wouldn't say that.

Orval

    Orval,
    
    I believe Mike is referring to Ananias and Saphira where being "slain"
    has a more permanent conotation.
    
    Kent
    

1Corinthians 14:33  For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as 
in all churches of the saints. 


 From what I've seen (and admittedly I haven't seen a lot) but all of this
 laughing, slaying ,etc in the spirit is confusion.  I've asked before and I'll
 ask again..what impression is the unsaved soul who wanders into a service 
 where this is taking place, going to have of Christianity?


Jim

I don't have time to write a lot, but....

I haven't been to Toronto, so I can't speak first hand either positively or
negatively.  Can anyone here?  My tendency, from seeing some of the fruits,
is to believe that in essence, this movement is of God.  Not to say that some
of the manifestations might not very well be overdone human reactions...

Bob, while your defense sounds good, I agree with Mike that we have to
examine this carefully, being open to the Holy Spirit doing things we might
not expect and which might even make us uncomfortable, but also making sure
we're not just blindly following whatever 'Spirit' comes along.  Your
response is perfectly true - God can do whatever He wants, and doesn't have
to ask our permission.  But your reply could be used verbatim to support
something that is not of God at all.  Mike's right - God can do whatever He
wants, but Satan can do quite a bit too, and we can't just blindly use your
argument, or we're sure to be deceived.

I also agree with Mike that 'fruits' of reconciliation and other ways that
people become 'nicer' aren't enough evidence that something is of God. 
Various New Age experiences make the same claims.  Satan's perfectly willing
to provide people with 'nice' experiences if he can draw them away from
Christ.  

But there are some particularly telling fruits, which Satan cannot and would
not counterfeit.  Som of the most telling fruits are:  Are people more
committed to Jesus Christ, does people's respect for Scripture increase, does
it draw people to pray?  Jonathan Edwards referred to five tests to determine
if a manifestation is a true work of the Holy Spirit:

         1. Does it bring honor to the person of Jesus Christ?
            
         2. Does it produce a greater hatred of sin and a greater love
            for righteousness?
            
         3. Does it produce a greater regard for Scripture?
         
         4. Does it lead people into truth?
            
         5. Does it produce a greater love for God and man?

From what I've heard of the Toronto revival, people are going away not just
'nicer,' not just having had an 'experience,' but on fire for Jesus Christ,
ravenously thirsty for Scripture, hungry for purity in their lives, and
committed to sharing the Joy of Christ with others.

Satan would never do such a thing.

The thing that's disturbing is some of the specific manifestations. 
Prophetic manifestations have always been disturbing, though the Bible
doesn't record the specific disturbing manifestations being seen today.  But,
for example, in 1 Sam 19, the Spirit of God came on Saul, and he prophesied,
and took off all his clothes, and lay down naked prophesying all day and all
night.  I imagine that a contemporary 'move of God' that involved people
lying around naked prophesying for a day at a time would most likely be
frowned upon today!  Micah went about weeping and wailing, naked and
barefoot, howling like a jackal and moaning like an owl, to symbolize the
coming judgement.  "Not of God," would be the judgement of this, according to
the criteria Mike used.

Just because God can do anything new that He wants, doesn't mean that we 
  should follow whatever purports to be 'of God.'

Just because it's not what we would expect, or even disturbing, doesn't mean 
  it's not 'of God.'

We have to keep both in mind.

Paul

    Re: all
    
    God's Word teaches that YHWH, the Eternal God, the Great I AM, is the same 
    yesterday, today, and forever.  He will never contradict Himself or 
    His inerrant Word.  
    
    Trends in Christianity and charismania will come and go, but they will
    all be judged by God's eternal Word.  This is the only true foundation
    we have to insure that we are in the will of God.  Trends will rise and 
    fall when brought into the light of God's Word.  The Toronto Blessing falls.
    
    Mike

    Re: .124

Orval,
    
>You sound like you have had a bad experience and have got hurt. Its hard to 
>detect tones in a notes, but you sound even bitter and judgemental. See I 
>could throw out statements too like. I got out of________ church too as 
>I opted for __________. But I choose not to fill in the blanks with
>judgemental statement which do not edify anybody and only serve to slander
>and cut down more than state what you opted for. Please don't take this
>harsely. We need to encourage and edify not cut down.
    
    I'm not bitter about it.  Looking back, the time I spent with the
    Assemblies of God (18 of my 32 years) was for a reason.  God blessed me
    by allowing me to experience 1 Corinthians 12 both personally and
    congregationally.  However, like the Israelites needed both the manna
    (symbol of God's Word) and the cloud (symbol of the Holy Spirit) to get
    through the wilderness, I got to a point where I was starving for more
    manna.  I have many Pentecostal and Baptist friends.  I don't think it
    is a coincidence that the Baptists know their Bible better and the
    Pentecostals are more focuses on the gifts.  It reflects the focus of
    the respective churches.  I was one of them.  I didn't know my Bible
    nearly as well as I should have while being raised in AG and lack of
    application didn't give me the desire for His Word.  Just like the 
    Israelites, the place where God would want us is a balance of the two.  I 
    feel God has put me in a place now where my soul receives more balanced 
    nourishment.
    
>As far as being "slain in the Spirit" You mention Act 5 which I am not familiar
>with off hand and am not at liberty to pull out a Bible in a public "office of
>the future" work area but will look it up tonight.
    
    No offense, but you're proving my point.  While in AG I wouldn't have
    known about this passage either.  Today, I feel like everyone who calls
    themself a Christian (which means they embrace the doctrine of the
    Trinity) should know about this passage.  It is the *ONLY* place in the 
    entire Bible where the Holy Spirit is called God!!!  You can't
    effectively minister to most cults without this passage!
    
>Kulman (sp?) as far as that goes. If someone is interested I can post all the
>references I have for Falling under the power, but will not do so just for the 
>sake of argument.
    
    Thanks, I'd like to see the list so I can check it for myself.  

>What do you mean by "seem very fearful to me"? I know most of the leaders in
>Toronto and I wouldn't say that.

Orval, read the article.  The quotes from John Arnott and Wes Campbell both
    address their personal fears of this movement as well as the fears of
    the congregation.  God doesn't work this way.
    
    Mike

>Check out: I Sam. 19:24
    
    Check your context.  Back in 18:10 an evil spirit came upon Saul and in
    18:12 we see that God had departed from Saul.
    
> II Sam 6:14
    
    I have no problem with this, but dancing before the Lord isn't one of
    the manifestations that the Toronto Blessing is being criticized for.
    
>					     Isaiah 20:2-4
    
    The culture of the day allowed for expressions like this to show 
    bereavement and mourning.   The wording does not preclude that he was 
    wearing a loincloth (which was the undergarment of the day).  Strict 
    nakedness was religiously and socially unacceptable.  The original
    Hebrew here for this passages states that he only removed his outer
    garments and not his tunic.  
    
>					     Micah 1:8
    
    Same applies here, he wasn't completely naked.  In addition, the
    Septuagint (LXX) states that the "stripped" refers to his shoes or
    sandals.
    
    Mike

>Check out: I Sam. 19:24
    
    Check your context.  Back in 18:10 an evil spirit came upon Saul and in
    18:12 we see that God had departed from Saul.

The more immediate context, I Sam 19:23, states:  "The Spirit of God [Elohim]
came upon him."  So even though God had departed from Saul in a permanent
sort of way, in this case it *was* the Spirit of God that came upon him.

Paul

    I believe there is insufficient biblical evidence to support or refute
    the blessing.  If I get time, I will see if I can obtain the summary
    that I have read.
    
    James

>> From what I've seen (and admittedly I haven't seen a lot) but all of this
>> laughing, slaying ,etc in the spirit is confusion.  I've asked before and I'll
>> ask again..what impression is the unsaved soul who wanders into a service 
>> where this is taking place, going to have of Christianity?

>Some of them are getting saved. They have seen a dead complacent compromising,
>and hiprocritical church for so long and now they come in and see some stuff


 So are we then to think that those churches who do not experience this 
 phenomena are not quite as "spiritual" as those which do?  I hope that is
 not what is being inferred in your above statement.


 I saw a growing church split and seriously wounded by such thinkng.


 Jim

>The more immediate context, I Sam 19:23, states:  "The Spirit of God [Elohim]
>came upon him."  So even though God had departed from Saul in a permanent
>sort of way, in this case it *was* the Spirit of God that came upon him.

    My apologies for missing this.  However, the same applies here as in
    the other verses.  He merely removed his outer robe and armor.  This
    was Saul's final encounter with the Spirit of God.  The laying aside of
    his robe is symbolic of his forfeiture of any claim to be Israel's
    king.  In a strange ironic twist, it seems the Holy Spirit is telling
    us that Saul is as legitimate a king as he is a genuine prophet.
    
    Mike

I'm not sure I buy your assertion that this didn't really mean 'naked,' but
only meant taking off the outer clothes.  The word used here for 'naked,' is
only used a few times in the Old testament (14), and it ususally means really
naked.  This includes Gen 2:25: "They were naked and unashamed," Job 1:21
"Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart," Eccl 5:15
"Naked a man comes from his mother's womb, and as he comes, so he departs,"
and Hos 2:3 "I will strip her naked and make her as bare as on the day she
was born."

The same word used in all those instances is used in this instance with Saul,
and is also used to describe the nakedness of the prophets Isaiah in Isaiah
20, and Micah in Micah 1:8.  In addition, in Isaiah, when describing why he
has done this, it says "So the king of Assyria will lead away stripped and
barefoot the Egyptian captives and Cushite exiles, young and old, with
buttocks bared - to Egypt's shame."

Sure sounds pretty naked to me, in all its other usages.  On what basis do
you assert that this doesn't really mean 'naked?'

Paul

    Before I start I'd like to say that I see a difference in falling
    prostrate before the Lord in full reverance (having control of your
    faculties) and being slain in the Spirit.  I'd also like to admit that
    I've never been slain in the Spirit, though the Holy Spirit has
    manifested itself via tongues in my life on a regular basis.  I also want 
    to state up front that I'm not bitter about it at all.  Many of those close 
    to me have been slain in the Spirit including my wife and parents.  I've 
    been to all the campmeetings where a preacher would line up everyone, 
    including my family members, and they would all fall like dominoes when 
    touched except for me.  I've had several of these men actually make 
    accusations and insinuations (via the 'spirit') about my personal life that 
    they had no clue about and were 100% wrong about.  I've also witnessed many 
    friends being slain in the Spirit when they were living a life that wasn't 
    glorifying God at all but rejecting Him (doing drugs, immoral sex, etc.), 
    while I was serving Him and not being slain.  Most that I've talked to
    don't have a recall of the experience of being 'out,'  just unusual
    sensations.  I'd like to hear of other experiences from people that do 
    have recall and what happens when you're 'under.'  That's about the extent 
    of my personal experiences with this phenomena.  I've surrendered myself 
    to God and given Him plenty of opportunities to work in my life and mold 
    me in several different ways.  I sincerely believe that this has never 
    happened to me because it's not of God.  I know many Christians that 
    *have* experienced this who agree with me and many that also disagree.
    
>  Gen. 15.12: "Abram fell into a deep sleep and a thick,
>  dreadful darkness came over him." This literally reads, "a
>  deep sleep fell on Abram." The Hebrew word radam means to be
>  in or fall into a deep sleep. This is the same word that is
>  used when God put Adam to sleep when he made Eve (Gen. 2:21;
>  cf. 17.17: "Abraham fell facedown").
    
    Why did this happen?  Because God is telling us that He and He alone
    can fulfill this covenant.  Abram couldn't pass between the pieces to
    seal the covenant because this is God's responsibility alone, so He put
    Abram to sleep.  In like manner, God passed between Himself and us on
    the cross to make atonement and seal the covenant and Messianic
    promises.  This doesn't sound the same as being slain in the Spirit to me.
    
>  1 Sam. 19: "Saul walked along prophesying...he stripped off
>  his robes and also prophesied in Samuel's presence. He lay
>  that way all that day and night. This is why people say, 'Is
>  Saul also among the prophets?'" This text shows that for
>  something close to a 24 hour period Saul lay in a prone
>  position with God speaking through him.
    
    Why did this happen?  Obviously he was in a trance.  Did God do this to
    provide doctrinal support for being slain in the Spirit or make a
    mockery of Saul and preserve the lives of all the prophets, frustrate
    all the purposes of Saul, and preserve the life of His servant?  It's
    the latter.  This was a punishment and not a blessing.  Being slain in
    the Spirit is supposed to be a blessing.
    
>  2 Chron. 5.13-14: In the context of the temple priests
>  worshiping and praising God, all of a sudden "the temple of
>  the Lord was filled with a cloud, and the priests could not
>  perform their service because of the cloud, for the glory of
>  the Lord filled the temple of God." This is a fascinating
>  text. It never says that the priests fell but it does
>  indicate that under God's glory they were essentially
>  immobilized, physically unable to perform their duties. What
>  happened seems to be connected to the Hebrew word for
>  "glory" (kabod) which means "a weight." The phenomenon of
>  falling in God's presence might be understood as being
>  overcome by the weight of God forcing them to the floor.
    
    I think you pretty much answered this one yourself.  You're right that it 
    doesn't state they fell during this dedication of the Mosaic tabernacle.  
    Strong's also agrees with your translation of glory being a weight.  I
    think it is more us being subject to the awesomeness of God and
    immobilized by His righteousness.  Moses also had to be hid from God's
    full glory.  I don't see this as supporting slaying in the Spirit.
    
>  Ezek. 1.28: "This was the appearance of the likeness of the
>  glory of the Lord. When I saw it I fell facedown..."   Ezek.
>  3.23: "...And the glory of the Lord was standing there, like
>  the glory I had seen by the Kebar river, and I fell face
>  down."
    
    This is falling prostrate before the Lord out of humility and for
    reverance of the awesomeness of God.

>  Dan. 8.17: "As he (Gabriel) came near...I was terrified and
>  fell on my face."   Dan. 10:9: In another divine encounter
>  with an angelic being, Daniel says, "When I heard the sound
>  of his words I then was lying stunned (radam) on the ground
>  and my face was toward the ground."
    
    Heavenly angels never receive worship in the Bible, but people still
    fall prostrate before them out of respect and/or fear.  The Holy Spirit
    tells us that Daniel was afraid and fell in 8:17.  In 10:9-10 it's
    obvious that he fainted.

>  Mt. 17.6: When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown
>  to the ground, terrified. But Jesus came and touched them.
>  'Get up,' he said. 'Don't be afraid.'"
    
    Same here, prostrate out of fear and respect in hearing God's voice.

>  Mt. 28.4: "The guards were so afraid of him (the angel) that
>  they shook and became like dead men."
    
    Same here, prostrate out of fear.

>  Jn. 18.6: As Judas and the soldiers came to arrest Jesus,
>  they had an interesting encounter. "When Jesus said, 'I am
>  he,' they jumped back and fell to the ground." Here we see
>  an immediate falling back in response to the presence of
>  Jesus. They were apparently able to get up shortly
>  thereafter because they went on to arrest Jesus.
    
    Why did this happen?  This is not a blessing but a curse.  Christ is
    showing that He is in charge of His own destiny.  He was not taken by
    surprise or against His will before He was ready to do so.  He was
    showing His power over His enemies to show how willingly He gave His
    life when He was ready.

>  Acts 9.22-26: When Paul was apprehended on the road to
>  Damascus by a light from heaven, he says, "I fell to the
>  ground and heard a voice." Again we see that falling was a
>  normal response to a divine visitation.
    
    Again, Paul was being reprimanded by God for persecuting the early
    church.  

>  Acts 10.10: While Peter was on the roof of Simon the tanner,
>  it says that "he fell into a trance."
    
    Peter went into a trance because God had a work to perform in his life
    coupled with the fact that he was very hungry and drowsy from the
    heat of the day.  God gave him the vision of ministering to the Gentiles - 
    something Peter was confused about or unwilling to do.  This doesn't
    sound like being slain in the Spirit to me.

>  In 2 Corinthians 12.1-4, Paul describes an amazing
>  experience where he didn't know if he was in his body or
>  not. He was "caught up in paradise" where he heard
>  inexpressible things that he was not permitted to tell.
>  Again, while the text does not say that he had fallen, this
>  experience was not described as a dream which happened to
>  him when he was asleep, but rather as a vision/revelation
>  (12.1). This implies that he was awake when the revelation
>  came and that for whatever time the experience lasted, he
>  was in some sort of trance-like state, most likely in a
>  prone position.
    
    In Jewish thought, the 1st heaven is the clouds or air, the 2nd is the 
    stars or sky, the 3rd is the spiritual realm where the righteous dead
    abide.  Clearly, Paul also makes a distinction between visions and 
    revelations here.  He often had visions which are also revelations, but not 
    all revelations come through visions.  Perhaps God was preparing him
    by fortifying him for future service and pending sufferings.  It is
    obvious that Paul is aware of everything going on as to time, place,
    to who it was addressed (himself), and being embarassed about boasting
    of the experience.  The only question he had is whether it happened in
    the physical or in the supernatural.  This doesn't sound like being
    slain in the Spirit to me either.  Those that experience the slaying
    know that it is a physical experience.

>  Rev. 1.17: In the visionary experience that resulted in the
>  book of Revelation, John, speaking of his angelic encounter,
>  says, "When I saw him I fell at his feet as though dead."
>  Here we see an experience similar to Adam's and Abram's
>  where the person not only falls but is also unconscious for
>  an extended period of time.
    
    John fell out of fear and respect as Daniel and Ezekiel did.
    
    Of the list, a few passages propose somewhat of an interesting
    challenge, but nothing conclusive to support this manifestation.  I'm
    speaking of 2 Chronicles 5:13-14 and Acts 10:10, and 2 Corinthians
    12:1-4 (which is always interesting no matter what).  These would be
    the best foundation for supporting this manifestation, but none of
    these 3 are as conclusive as the manifestations in 1 Corinthians 12.  I
    think the Holy Spirit would've included slaying in the Spirit in 1
    Corinthians 12 if it was of God.
    
    thanks for the list,
    Mike

    This word for naked is "arom" (6174 in Strong's) is in the Bible 16
    times in the Bible (all in OT) and is used to represent partial as well
    as total nakedness.  
    
>Sure sounds pretty naked to me, in all its other usages.  On what basis do
>you assert that this doesn't really mean 'naked?'
    
    Nakedness was religiously and socially unacceptable in Hebrew culture.
    Complete nakedness is never associated with something of God after the
    fall, it is condemned (Genesis 9:20-23).  Remember God will not contradict 
    Himself.
    
    Nakedness is often used in the Bible figuratively as well.  It may mean
    without full covering (John 21:7), destitution (Job 22:6),
    impoverishment (Genesis 42:9 exposure and helplessness of the land).  Job 
    also used it to indicate the transcience of earthly possessions (Job 1:21).
    The Laodicean church in Revelation 3:17 is called naked - a
    characterization of its spiritual bankruptcy.
    
    Mike

    I suppose I shouldn't enter this fray for my thinking has swayed
    somewhat over the last few months. :-) :-)  
    
    All things are to be done decently and in order.  So if folks are gonna
    be falling all over the place it better look like dominoes, right? 
    
    If you find that humorous, listen to this... we all may be laughing in
    the spirit or have the spirit of joviality before I'm through.
    
    Some of us have been so tainted and fearful of what the charasmatic
    church has portrayed as being filled in the spirit that we have become
    inhibited in that expression in our own lives and in our churches
    consequently.
    
    In my church, I see folks when good toe stomping, happy-sounding,
    spirit-filled music is being sung, look solmenly ahead, while quietly
    tapping their foot.  I see someone think about clapping to the music,
    but sits with their hands folded while thinking, "Don't want anybody to
    think I've become a charasmatic", thoughts running through their minds.
    
    No, I'm not making this up... I've talked to many in my own church who
    do this.  They are fearful of what others will label them if they get
    "happy in church".  It seems that the only time Bible-waving and
    handclapping and real joy gets expressed in our services is when its
    filled with Pastors, or teenagers at the Youth Conference.
    
    The most refreshing thing I have given my children was a breath of
    charisma these past two months.  My youngest son, raised his hands
    towards the heavens and praised the Lord from his heart with song.  He
    asked me why we don't do that in our church.  And I said because, our
    church doesn't want to have the appearance of a charasmatic church...
    and this caused me to reason why.
    
    The pentacostal church or the "faith movement" churches have espoused a
    doctrine that for most conservative churches i.e., Baptist,
    Presbyterian, Methodist, etc., feels is in error.  They've espoused a
    doctrine of the spirit which is contrary to the belief of these other
    churches as follows:
    
    1.  Tongues will cease - through prophecy many of the churches 
    	listed above believe that this is the day in which tongues
    	have ceased.  And that only chaos is created through tongues
    	at this time.
    
    2.	You receive the Holy Spirit upon your faith and believe in Christ.
    	That its not how much of the Holy Spirit you have, but how much
    	of you is surrendered to the Holy Spirit.
    
    

    Sort of apples & oranges, Nancy.  The Baptists, etc., stance on tongues
    is unscriptural too.  This topic goes beyond that.  You now have
    charismatics calling into question the Toronto Blessing because of
    people imitating animals and showing signs of demonic possession and
    blaming it on the Holy Spirit.
    
    Mike

    Have you ever wondered why some Christians seem to have a difficult
    time and yet they are joyful, happy and always rising to the occasion
    to Praise God inspite of their burdens?  
    
    One of the doctrines of the faith movement is that God takes our
    burdens away, that if you just come to Jesus you'll be healed, you'll
    be rich, you'll be [insert burden removal checklist].  But I contend
    that this is not what God has promised if we come to Him.
    
    Read the verses below:
    
    Matthew 11:28  Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden,
    and I  will give you rest. 
     29  Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in 
    heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 
     30  For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. 
    
    I'd like to ask a couple of questions.
    
    1.  Do you have a burden?  My hand is raised.  You bet I do.
    2.	Are you a Christian?  Have you come to Christ?  Yes, I know I have.
    
    So if I have a burden, and I've come to Christ something's wrong with
    the verses above?  No, of course not, but something is wrong with my
    understanding of the verses.
    
    I've struggled with this concept more in my Christian life than any
    other concept.  Why if God loves me so, I still have this burden, this
    sin in my life... why can't I get VICTORY over it?  Well here it is.
    
    The Burden isn't what gets taken away, the key is in the word "Yoke". 
    Think for a moment if you will of a work horse in the field pulling a
    tillar.  The horse has a rope around its neck and with every pull he
    struggles, coughs, loses his breath and his advancement is slow and
    painful.  But take that rope of his neck and give him a yoke that is
    around his shoulders and though his burden is the same, the weight
    becomes lighter and now he can move at an easier pace with no struggle.
    
    My Brothers and Sisters, please see this, if you have a burden and you
    come to Christ, that burden may not go away, but God will give you a
    yoke to HIM so that the burden is lighter and inspite of the burden you
    can still have joy and peace in your lives.
    
    Take a look at your yokes and see if you've truly brought them to
    Christ for his yoke is light and will give you rest, though your burden
    is the same.
    
    Your Sis,
    Nancy
    

    .145
    
    You are correct, and that is not to be the focus of my writing, though
    for those that find this an issue, I can see it becoming so.
    
    Nancy

    The conclusion or point to my previous to writings is this:
    
    I believe that those of us who find the "falling" of those who have
    been filled with a spirit questionable, need to realize that much of
    our reluctancy to accept this can lead to legalism and binding of the
    spirit within us.
    
    This may not be the case for Mike Heiser and his church, but I
    certainly see it in my own and do not believe that we are the only one
    like this in a country this size.
    
    I don't like limitations... though I wish to be prudent and wise.
    
    Nancy

    Just got an interesting letter from mom that contained an August 1994
    article from "Charisma" magazine (she subscribes) written by Stephen
    Strang (their founding editor).  Mr. Strang is pretty critical with this
    movement too and raises lots of questions about it.  However, he plays
    it safe by claiming Acts 5:38-39 at the end.
    
    She mentioned to me that the pastors of the Foursquare churches in
    Clinton and Worcestor allow the laughing to a degree but do not allow 
    animal noises.
    
    Mike

Jeremiah 51:37
And Babylon shall become heaps, a dwellingplace for dragons, and astonishment,
and an hissing, without an inhabitant.

Jeremiah 51:38
They shall roar together like lions: they shall yell as lions' whelps.

Jeremiah 51:39
In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they
may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 51:40
I will bring them down like lambs to the slaughter, like rams with he goats.

I know you think this is terrible, Mike.  But, 'by their fruits you shall
know them.'

About three years ago, I began to become exposed to and involved in similar
renewal meetings, with some of the same sorts of manifestations that the
Toronto Revival has been seeing, though on a much smaller scale, and smaller
intensity, and without some of the strangest manifestations such as roaring.
More recently, I've gone to a couple of renewal meetings that are more
similar to the Toronto revival.  My world-view has been stretched, but this
has been the effect on me:

- My attitude toward the Word has completely changed.  I used to view the
  Word as a record of humans trying to understand God.  I expected it to be
  flawed and only reliable in a very general sense.  That attitude has been
  totally transformed into a complete trust and reliance on His Word.

- I used to have my very own "Mr Potato Head" Jesus, a Jesus who I made to
  fit my own conceptions of what is right.  It sounds blasphemous to even say
  such a thing, and I wouldn't have accepted that description then, but I was
  very much guilty of making Jesus in my own image.  That attitude has been
  totally transformed into a radical committment to let Jesus be Jesus, to
  let God be God, to let God and Jesus define themselves, and to conform *my*
  thoughts and images to theirs instead of the other way around.

- I've become radically committed to Jesus in a way I've never known before.
  The 'personal relationship' which I had heard about has become a reality,
  has become *the* reality, in my life.  Right now I'm focused on being a
  slave of Christ, one who has no rights other than those explicitly allowed
  me by my Lord.

- My life and attitude toward others has been transformed.  I'm again,
  radically committed to imitating my Lord, in allowing Him to live through
  me and through my actions toward others, in a way I'd never known before.

Everyone I know who has been similarly involved in this renewal has seen much
of the same fruit in their lives.  Everywhere I look, I see people who have
been transformed by renewal into people transformed by the power of Christ,
people with a new committment to live for Him and live in His likeness,
people with a new respect and reverence for His Holy Word.

Satan would never do such a thing.  Never.

Paul

Some thoughts from someone on an internet conference:

First, I think the Vineyard will likely be rejected by many...and for a
variety of reasons....

I believe the CLASSIC LIBERALS (the heirs of German Rationalism) will
reject the Vineyard because there is little room in their dry, modernist
theologies and methodologies for recognition of the reality of the
supernatural...esp. as it manifests itself in the here and now, natural
realm.

The POST-MODERN LIBERALS will reject it because it is too narrow.  The
Vineyard values traditional Christian orthodoxy...a fairly evangelical
approach to the Bible...and "traditional" ethics.  And that will not be
tolerated by the tolerant ones among us.

FUNDAMENTALISTS already (often) reject the Vineyard because their
dispensationalism does not leave room for the present day manifestations of
the Holy Spirit...(are they, perhaps, bedfellows with the CLASSIC
LIBERALS?).

The NEW ORTHODOXY, ala Neuhaus, Oden and others don't have much room for
the Vineyard because their stress on experience is troubling when there is
a perceived battle raging for orthodoxy with its focal point being the
"experiential" theologies of the POST-MODERN LIBERALS.  Also, Neuhaus and
others (to my read) have difficulty with the "revivalism" that marks the
Vineyard's style.

The church BUREACRACIES will reject the Vineyard, because their style is
too much from "the bottom up."  Vineyard values the laity, and has
intentionally avoided becoming an actual "denomination" out of distaste for
bureacracy (among a number of things)...one of the reasons they remain
"independent" congregations.  Though the VMI (Vineyard Ministries
International) Board will make theological and practical "pronouncements",
they are careful to stress that each "fellowship" has the right and
responsibility to make of the pronouncement what they will.

Now, that said...I believe that God is doing something miraculous through
the Vineyard.  They have had a tremendous impact on numerous pastors and
lay-folk from around the world (especially through the Toronto Outpouring).
And (in some agreement with Bob), I believe this renewal will have great
impact on numerous churches as pastors and layfolk gently bring renewal to
others in their midst.

And though the Vineyard and it's style will be rejected by many, those many
will (IMHO) eventually become the dinosaurs of Christendom.  CLASSIC
LIBERALISM is fascinating for those still engrossed in it, but it lacks
transformative power...and it's rejection of the supernatural will not
survive the onslaught of post-modernism.  POST-MODERN LIBERALISM will
(again, IMHO) dissipate in a maze of interesting, but ultimately useless
theologies.  The POST-MODERN LIBERALS will stretch the parameters so far,
that they will eventually lose any identity as "Christian", and will cease
having any real impact on the Christian church.  FUNDAMENTALISM is already
at a dead end (although schools like Dallas, etc. keep hanging on), for
much the same reason as classic liberalism--their rigidity and denial of
the supernatural leaves little room for the fluidity of the Holy
Spirit...and they, too, will have great difficulty adjusting to the culture
of post-modernism.  The NEW ORTHODOXY has a better chance of
surviving...but only if it connects more intensely with the experiential
realm.  Otherwise, it will become nothing more than a dead orthodoxy that,
though admirable in its attempt at preserving the faith once handed down,
will have little appeal or power to transform.  The BUREACRACIES will
become obsolete on their own anyway...if they aren't already.  In the era
of pluralism, the bureacracies have no power over their constituencies, and
that will continue as congregations become more excited about their own
ministries, and recognize that they, too, are empowered by the Holy Spirit
to do mission, and that they need not pay professionals, through the church
bureacracies, to do their ministry for them.

The Vineyard provides a model for the future church:  Orthodox, but
flexible...able to respond to a changing culture because it remains in
touch with the culture, rather than cloistered from it...holding a high
view of enscripturated revelation, but open to the immediate leading of the
Holy Spirit (however, not in ways that would contradict or devalue
scripture)...stressing the equipping of the laity for ministry, even (and
especially) outside of the four walls of the church...In touch with the
power of God to transform, to heal and to deliver men and women from the
bondages of a fragmenting society...

 Hmm...lots of "them and they and their" type stuff in there that at
 first reading makes me a little uncomfortable.




Jim

>The Vineyard provides a model for the future church:  Orthodox, but
>flexible...able to respond to a changing culture because it remains in
>touch with the culture, rather than cloistered from it...holding a high
>view of enscripturated revelation, but open to the immediate leading of the
>Holy Spirit (however, not in ways that would contradict or devalue
>scripture)...stressing the equipping of the laity for ministry, even (and
>especially) outside of the four walls of the church...In touch with the
>power of God to transform, to heal and to deliver men and women from the
>bondages of a fragmenting society...

This reminds me of the same sentiment shared by the "revivalists" of the
1800s.  They were largely Methodist.  Look at the Methodist church today.

jeff 

     Re: <<< Note 613.154 by USAT05::BENSON "Eternal Weltanschauung" >>>

>> The Vineyard provides a model for the future church:  Orthodox, but
>> flexible...able to respond to a changing culture because it remains in
>> touch with the culture, rather than cloistered from it...holding a high
>> view of enscripturated revelation, but open to the immediate leading of the
>> Holy Spirit (however, not in ways that would contradict or devalue
>> Scripture)...stressing the equipping of the laity for ministry, even (and
>> especially) outside of the four walls of the church...In touch with the
>> power of God to transform, to heal and to deliver men and women from the
>> bondages of a fragmenting society...

> This reminds me of the same sentiment shared by the "revivalists" of the
> 1800s.  They were largely Methodist.  Look at the Methodist church today.

Correct, Jeff. IMHO, this indicates that every half-century or so, the Holy
Spirits sweeps the old chaff out of the church (throws the bums out, as it
were), renews that which is left, and rebuilds. Of course, the chaff usually
insists on retaining its old form, so we are left with many shells of old
so-called churches, who were once filled with the Spirit, but are now sad
empty hulks of their former selves. It has been so throughout history -
the Spirit moves on, and the bureaucracy never gets the point - having a 
form of godliness, but denying the power thereof. IMHO, Charles & John Wesley 
would be the *first* to paint "ICHABOD" above the collective doors of the UMC.

Brian

I was going to say something similar, Brian.  The Lord keeps having to find
new wineskins.  I grew up in a Methodist church, and I was SHOCKED when I
began to understand what the Wesleys were all about, and the basis on which
the denomination started.  The church I grew up in (not a dead church,
considered the most active in its region) bore NO resemblance to the initial
thrust of 'Methodism.'

And yes, Jim, I get uncomfortable with too many 'thems' also.  I take each as
an attitude, point the finger at myself, and see if it fits.  If so, I have
work to do (assuming I agree that the attitude is not of the Lord in the
first place).

Paul

613.154� This reminds me of the same sentiment shared by the "revivalists"
613.154� of the 1800s.  They were largely Methodist.  Look at the Methodist
613.154� church today. 

Wrong comparison, Jeff.  You have to look at where the LORD is currently 
moving at any time; not at an organisation or title.

The people who moved out in the Methodist revival were laying down their 
reputation for the LORD.  Subsequent generations of Methodists were 
following things that had been revealed to men, rather than following the 
direct revelation of the LORD.  There is an immense difference, however 
correct (or otherwise) the original revelation is.

God is not to be found tied to a denominational name, or even to an 
organisation which fights shy of having a name.  He is revealed in His Word.

 - I guess that's what Brian was saying too, now I come to look back!

							Andrew

    
    I think it is a good comparison, Andrew.  The revivalists in America
    also believed they were the newest, greatest expression of
    Christianity based upon their experiences of the Holy Spirit.  To the
    extent that they saw themselves as the "future" of Christianity, that
    future didn't last too long if you look at them now.  I think such
    pronouncements by a group like Vineyard are motivated largely by their
    experiences, not the Word of God.
    
    jeff

I agree, Jeff, that it's a perfect comparison.  But I don't think it reflects
on the now so much as the future.  I don't take the statement of being the
'future' of the church as a statement of the long-term future, but rather of
what God is doing today and in the *immediate* future.  And I wouldn't call
it 'latest and greatest,' just 'latest': this has all happened before.  

Of course this wineskin will grow old and brittle just as all the others
have.  100 years from now (if Christ doesn't return before then), the
Vineyard movement will most likely have bureaucratized and throttled the move
of the Spirit there, too.  They'll be a new denomination with their own forms
and rituals, and the Holy Spirit will have to find new wineskins once again.

Paul

    Hank Hannegraaff spoke at the Calvary Chapel Pastors' Conference in
    Costa Mesa last week.  Also in attendance was an ex-Vineyard pastor
    (Tom ?) who attended Calvary @ Costa Mesa before going to Vineyard (for 
    those of you who don't know it, Vineyard was formed by a small group of 
    pastors that left Calvary Chapel).  A few things that stuck out in my mind 
    from the presentation:
    
    - true revival always is a result of the full counsel and revelation of 
      God's Word leading to repentance and tears (not laughter).
    
    - Hank was personally attended several of these meetings and has
      watched over 100 hours of video tape of Rodney Howard-Browne.  Some
      of what he described as going on stage in the name of the Holy Spirit
      isn't worth mentioning in a Christian forum.  Some of the ones barking
      like dogs on all fours actually lift their leg too to emulate a dog
      relieving themselves.  This is mild compared to some meetings.  When
      asked what he thought could come along to top this, Hank said it
      would take something like "Born-Again Bestiality."  This should tell
      you what's being down at these meetings.
    
    - Pastor Chuck Smith said he almost wrote a book similar to Hank's
      "Christianity in Crisis" years ago but Chuck Missler talked him out of
      it.  Standing up for truth isn't a popular thing and Hank is under
      severe attack.
    
    - The ex-Vineyard pastor said the whole thing is based on experience
      only and not the full counsel of the Word of God as Pastor Chuck Smith
      teaches.  These meetings and their pastors have lost their focus and
      the name of Christ is rarely glorified.  Over 90% of it is chasing a
      feeling, emotion, or experience.  Even the popular Vineyard music
      tapes now contain lyrics showing the focus on a "thing" rather than
      God according to this ex-Vineyard pastor.
    
    - All of these men (Hank, Chuck, etc.) are not cessationists.  They
      have all experienced the manifestation of tounges via the Holy Spirit
      and have seen God's Spirit move in mighty ways.  Saying they're
      restricting the move of God is false.  Our AfterGlow services are
      very charismatic but within the order and guidelines of the full
      counsel of God's Word.
    
    Mike

    Can't remember if I ever commented on this subject, sooooo:
    
    I saw this Rodney Howard-Brown on that Peter Jennings' special on
    Religion. Me and my roommate, Laurie, who love to laugh were not amused
    and definitely did not feel this was of God.  He got people laughing by
    saying derogatory comments about other denominations.  I've heard from
    others who have researched this that not only do they use blankets to
    cover people for decency, but also to cover the mess they make if they
    lose control of their bodily functions.  Another friend who works for
    the Navigators reported that RHB was quoted as saying "I don't much
    care what spirit is moving, it's more important that one is."  This is
    clearly not of God and the spirit moving is certainly not the Holy
    Spirit.
    
    I think this is the danger of the charismatic and/or Word Faith
    movement. There are so many ties to emotionalism, that experience
    becomes more important than a relationship with God.  I'm not saying
    that all of the charismatic movement has been corrupted by such things,
    but I think they are certainly more suspectible to these types of
    things.
    
    Jill

    
    Thanks brother Mike for all the info you've posted here.  

    You're welcome, Jill.  I think your Word Faith reference is important
    because I don't believe it is a coincidence that RHB is tightly
    connected with members of that movement.
    
Jeremiah 23:25
I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I
have dreamed, I have dreamed.

Jeremiah 23:26
How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea,
they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;

Jeremiah 23:27
Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they
tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for
Baal.

Jeremiah 23:28
The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word,
let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the
LORD.

Jeremiah 23:29
Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh
the rock in pieces?

Jeremiah 23:30
Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my
words every one from his neighbour.

Jeremiah 23:31
Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and
say, He saith.

Jeremiah 23:32
Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do
tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness;
yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this
people at all, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 23:33
And when this people, or the prophet, or a priest, shall ask thee, saying, What
is the burden of the LORD? thou shalt then say unto them, What burden? I will
even forsake you, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 23:34
And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the people, that shall say, The
burden of the LORD, I will even punish that man and his house.

Jeremiah 23:35
Thus shall ye say every one to his neighbour, and every one to his brother,
What hath the LORD answered? and, What hath the LORD spoken?

Jeremiah 23:36
And the burden of the LORD shall ye mention no more: for every man's word shall
be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the LORD
of hosts our God.

Jeremiah 23:37
Thus shalt thou say to the prophet, What hath the LORD answered thee? and, What
hath the LORD spoken?

Jeremiah 23:38
But since ye say, Thy burden of the LORD; therefore thus saith the LORD;
Because ye say this word, The burden of the LORD, and I have sent unto you,
saying, Ye shall not say, The burden of the LORD;

Jeremiah 23:39
Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you,
and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence:

Jeremiah 23:40
And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which
shall not be forgotten.

The TORONTO PHENOMENON/LAUGHING IN THE SPIRIT

Is it of God? How can Christians decide?

By Tricia Tillin



With all the media and Church interest in the UK in what is being called "revival",
and "refreshing" or "The Toronto Blessing", Christians urgently need to consider
their response. While some are waiting for the genuine hallmarks of revival to
develop, and others are simply undecided, many have accepted the manifestations as
totally of God. But is this right? How can we judge these things? 

From reports coming in, and also from the study of the Word, and of previous
genuine revivals, we can make several observations that may be helpful: 



1. IDENTIFIED PREVIOUSLY AS DEMONIC

The more disruptive and outrageous manifestations present in the meetings, such as
hysterical laughter, growling, roaring, over-heating of the body and paralysis have
never been signs of a genuine revival. They have, however, occurred elsewhere
(new-age therapies/drug-abuse, for example), and been identified as fleshy or
demonic manifestations during earlier revivals. Pot-smokers report they developed
hysterical laughter in which everything appears to be funny. One Christian who had
worked in a lunatic asylum reports having heard the same laughter there! 

This quote from "War On The Saints" (Jessie Penn-Lewis, Publisher: Thomas Lowe,
NY, first published 1912, reprinted 1973 onwards)tells of an earlier occasion during
the Welsh Revival (1904) in which laughter was identified as a work of the devil in a
Christian meeting: 

"A strange element comes in, possibly only recognisable to some with keen spiritual
vision, or else plainly obvious to all. Perhaps the speaker begins to pray quietly and
calmly, with a pure spirit, but suddenly the voice is raised, it sound "hollow", or has a
metallic tone; the tension of the meeting increases and overwhelming over-mastering
"power" falls upon it; and no one thinks of "resisting" what appears to be such a
"manifestation of God"! 
The majority of those present may have no idea of the mixture which has crept in.
Some fall on the ground, unable to bear the strained emotion, or effect upon the
mind; and some are thrown down by some supernatural power; others cry out in
ecstasy; the speaker leaves the platform, passes by a young man, who becomes
conscious of a feeling of intoxication upon him, which does not leave his senses for
some time. Other laugh with the exuberance of the intoxicating joy. Some have had
real spiritual help and blessing through the Word of God being expounded ere this
climax came, and during the pure outflow of the Holy Spirit consequently they
accept these strange outworkings as from God, because in the first stage of the
meetings, their needs have been truly met of Him, and they cannot discern between
the two separate "manifestations" coming through the same channel." 

In a passage headed "How Demons Attack Advanced Christians" Jessie Penn-Lewis
describes religious demons who offer a counterfeit of true, deep spirituality. (page
324) She cites the example of one man who: 
"... felt like rolling on the floor, groaning and pulling the chairs around, but he
distinctly perceived that the impulse to do so had something wild in it; and a touch of
self-display contrary to the gentleness and sweetness of Jesus; and as quick as he saw
it was an attack of a false spirit, he was delivered. But another man had the same
impulse, and fell down groaning and roaring, beating the floor with his hands and
feet, and the demon entered into him as an angel of light, and got him to think that
his conduct was of the Holy Ghost, and it became a regular habit in the meetings he
attended, until he would ruin every meeting he was in..." 

To understand how this sort of thing was discerned as demonic, you need to read the
comments in context and see the teaching of the book as a whole. "War On The
Saints" (unabridged version, by Jessie Penn-Lewis, Publisher: Thomas Lowe, NY,
first published 1912, reprinted 1973 onwards) is invaluable at this time, as it so
mirrors the present-day events. 

Laughter therapy is also currently in use as a new-age therapy. Norman Cousins,
globalist, new-age occultist and leader of the infamous human potential movement is
famous for his metaphysical laughter teachings; "laughter therapy workshops are an
integral part of the human potential movement here in Australia", reports the
Christian newsletter "Despatch" March 1994, Vol 6:1 



2. STRIKING DIFFERENCES BETWEEN PREVIOUS REVIVALS AND TODAY

A study of revivals in the past reveals major inconsistencies: �Firstly, revival is
primarily for the unsaved, to bring them to Jesus. True revival has always been the
powerful preaching of the Word of God, leading to a conviction of sin and a strong
desire to repent, and to seek God for salvation. If and when physical manifestations
occurred, (falling down, moaning, crying aloud) they happened as a result of
conviction - and they ceased once the person found relief in the Lord Jesus. 

Secondly, these things were the exception rather than the rule. There was NEVER a
time in previous genuine revivals when Christians lined up en masse to receive
holy-laughter, or came over and over again to meetings to get slain in the spirit. 

Thirdly, the attitude of the elders to physical manifestations was very cautious, in
genuine revivals. They were aware of the danger of letting satan get a foothold in
God's work, and they tested and limited the manifestations. This is not happening
today! 

"Oftentimes, excitement spreads rapidly through a congregation under the influence
of sympathy, and it not unfrequently becomes necessary in powerful revivals to
proceed with great discretion for this reason. Where one person becomes
overwhelmed with excitement, and breaks out into loud crying and tears, where he
cannot contain himself but has to wail out with excitement, it requires much
judgement to dispose of such a case without injury on the one side or the other. If the
thing be severely rebuked, it will almost invariably beget such a feeling among
Christians as to quench the Spirit. On the other hand, if it be openly encouraged and
the flame fanned, it will often produce an overwhelming amount of excitement
throughout the congregation. Many will perhaps be overcome, and multitudes profess
to submit to God; whereas scarcely one of them has acted intelligently or will in the
end be found to have been truly converted...(Finney, "Reflections On Revival" P.42) 



3. WHERE IS THE REPENTANCE? WHERE ARE THE UNBELIEVERS?

This is a "revival" that so far has affected only Christians. There is no such thing, in
reality. In fact, even the leaders of the new move are wary of calling it "revival" for
this very reason. They know that God's revivals reach out to the unsaved, to convict
them and convert them. God's Holy Spirit, when He comes in power, calls sinners to
repentance. He convicts of sin, he reminds of judgement, and he gives assurance of
righteousness only to be found in the Saviour, the Lord Jesus. (John 16:8) 

That being the case, a move that involves no evangelism, has no foundation of
repentance, and consists mainly of Christians being slain in the spirit for no apparent
reason, cannot be called a revival. 



4. A REVIVAL THAT IS SPREAD FROM PERSON TO PERSON?

One major feature of this current move is that it is being spread by the use of
testimonies, audio tapes, laying-on-of-hands, and so on (rather than the preaching of
the Word!). There is also a scramble to travel to a place where the manifestations are
occurring, in order to "get" it. 

However, a genuine revival is the work of God alone, a sovereign move of the Holy
Spirit, in response to believing prayer over a period of time. It cannot be pinned
down to a place or a person, and cannot be passed from one to another like an
infection, for God deals with each person in a special and unique way. 



5. THE MANIFESTATIONS CAN BE HALTED IN THE NAME OF JESUS

If this outpouring were truly of God, it would spread solely under His guidance and
power, and no man could halt it. Instead, several Christians report that they have
rebuked the manifestations and caused them to stop. Others say, after asking the Lord
for protection during the meetings, anyone who tried to lay hands on them swerved
away. Is the Holy Spirit divided, or is He praying against Himself? 



6. MOCKING THE WORD OF GOD AND INTERRUPTING PREACHING

The manifestations, in particular the laughter, are not happening in response to the
ministry of the Word of God. Indeed, they often interrupt the reading of the Word,
and make preaching impossible. The UK Christian magazine "Renewal" reports: 
"As he read his opening remarks, the power of God swept through the building
totally unrelated to the words that he had said, which actually were rather serious and
solemn. His opening remarks were, "The story of Solomon is one of the most tragic
in the whole Bible". This sober comment was greeted by sudden outburst of hilarious
laughter....there was no way we could stop this spontaneous, uninvited laughter...the
meeting continued until 11.30 at night with no opportunity for the speaker to preach"
(Terry Virgo, "Fresh Outpourings of the Holy Spirit, Renewal Magazine August
1994) 

Another quote from the American Christian magazine "Charisma" says much the
same thing. Hugh Williams, an Episcopalian priest fell down and started laughing
when prayed for by Rodney Howard-Browne ("Be filled" was his prayer!).
Afterwards, manifestations broke out in this priest's home church: 
Worship became longer and more intense. Sunday services began to last up to three
hours and more healing and laughter occurred. Recently, laughter broke out during
the consecratory prayer for the Eucharist, normally the most solemn part of the
service. "It IS distracting", says Hugh Williams, "but I've come to feel it is God who
is distracting us from our routine ways and concentrating our attention on Him".
(Julia Duin, Charisma, August 1994) 

When God sends miracles, it is in confirmation of HIS WORD. (Mark 16:20) Today,
however, the reading of the Word is being drowned out by irrational laughter,
shouting and raving. (It is demons who love to mock the Word of God). This quote is
from a meeting led by Rodney Howard-Browne: 
"One night I was preaching on hell, and laughter just hit the whole place. The more I
told people what hell was like, the more they laughed." (Julia Duin, Charisma,
August 1994) 



7. RECEIVED AS SENSUAL EXPERIENCE/RESULTS IN SUBJECTIVE FEELINGS:

Although God is interested in our bodies as well our souls, His sphere of involvement
with a Christian is primarily "in the spirit" . God is a Spirit, and those who worship
Him must worship in spirit and in truth. On the other hand, demons interact with
people in the flesh - that is, in the physical body, and in the mental realm (emotions,
desires, feelings). 

They give bodily sensations (shivers, shakes, heat, tingles, weakness, energy, etc.) and
mental feelings (overwhelming burdens, or intoxicating sensations of joy,
revelations, strong desires, impulses to do irrational things, etc.). 

The majority of people who experience "holy laughter" say the result is a feeling of
intense love. Because they are Christians, their love is directed at Jesus. However,
this does not prove that the feelings of love are sent from God. 

Having experienced a time of demonic deception in my own life, this writer can
testify that feelings of intense love and ecstasy can be demonically induced, even
though you think you are worshipping God and praying to God. If, at the time I
experienced those things, you had asked me to stake my life on the fact that it was
from God, I would have done it. I was utterly convinced. It was only the challenge of
judging my experiences objectively by the Word of God, and testing them by the
power and the Name of Jesus, that opened my eyes to the truth. I was not possessed,
nor was I a backslidden Christian, yet I was truly deceived. 

Some Christians believe they are safe from deception as long as their intentions are
right. But the sad fact is, that if you unwittingly fulfil the conditions for demonic
activity, you WILL nevertheless experience demonic interference of some sort. We
must learn to tell the difference between demonic and godly experiences, not just
subjectively, but by knowing the scriptures. 

Also, because the results of the "holy laughter" and so on are subjective experiences,
we are left to decide on the basis of peoples' experiences and their impressions of the
meetings. 

This is not good enough! 

THERE MUST BE AN OBJECTIVE BASIS ON WHICH TO JUDGE THE EXPERIENCES.

The only objective, rock-solid foundation we have is the Word of God and the Truth
of God. Thus, however overwhelming, convincing and acceptable people's
experiences are, if they do not line up with the Word of God, they are not to be
trusted as genuine! 

We need fear no kind or degree of excitement which is produced simply by perceived
truth, and is consistent with the healthful operation of the intellectual powers.
Whatever exceeds this must be disastrous. In general, those cases of bodily
prostration of which I have spoken occur without the apparent intervention of any
external means adapted to produce such a result...the excitement produced when the
Holy Ghost reveals God to the soul...is not only consistent with the clearest and most
enlarged perceptions of the intelligence, but directly promotes and produces such
perceptions. Indeed, it promotes the free and unembarrassed action of both the
intelligence and the will. 

Now it appears to me of great importance to distinguish in these cases between things
that differ. When I see cases of extraordinary excitement, I have learned to enquire as
calmly and affectionately as I can into the views of truth taken by the mind at the
time. If the individual readily and spontaneously gives such reasons as naturally
account for this excitement, I can then judge of its character. If it really originates in
clear views by the Holy Ghost, of the character of God and of the great truths of his
government, the mind will be full of these truths and will spontaneously give them
off whenever there is ability to utter them....But where the attention seems to be
occupied with one's own feelings, and when they can give no intelligible reason for
feeling as they do, very little confidence can be placed in their state. (Pp49-51
Finney, "Reflections On Revival") 



8. THE RESTORATION FACTOR:

What is happening at this point, to the Church, must be understood in its proper
eschatological framework - that is, we have to look to the prophecies about the
endtimes to see if we can identify what is happening at this present time. The truth is
that the scriptures do not predict a widespread revival, but they DO predict a great
falling away from the truth. There will be false teachers, false prophets and lying
signs and wonders taking place. The greatest concern of Jesus and the apostles, when
considering the endtimes, was that Christians might get deceived. 



9. RECEIVED MAINLY BY THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN MENTALLY PREPARED

Since God is no regarder of persons, any genuine outpouring of the Spirit should have
affected all churches alike. But this is not so. The manifestations are occurring in
charismatic churches that had previously accepted unbiblical teachings, such as
kingdom-now, word-of-faith, and replacement theology. The Toronto church that
has been a focus of this phenomenon is part of the Vineyard Fellowship, which
promoted the infamous Kansas City Prophets a few years ago. Vineyard prophets,
like Rick Joyner, have been building up expectancy for worldwide revival for some
years now. The churches that accepted the Kansas City Prophets and others like them
will have been mentally prepared for this outbreak of power. They are therefore
much less likely to be critical or objective about it. 



10. NO FEAR OF GOD

Revivals in the past were conducted in an atmosphere of great reverence and awe of
God. When the presence of God came, it was to bring a holy awe, and those who
cried out did so in deep conviction of their sinfulness. However, today many have
been disgusted at the irreverence, hilarity, lack of control and downright silliness of
what is going on. Supporters speak in terms of "fun" and "partying", and sneer at
sobriety. Charisma magazine, in its futile attempts to support holy laughter, cites one
case in the revival at Cane Ridge in 1801. But this only serves to emphasise the
differences. Out of a reported ten to twenty thousand people attending the meetings,
one or two laughed out loud. 

"it was a loud hearty laughter...the subject appeared rapturously SOLEMN, and his
laughter excited SOLEMNITY in saints and sinners." (Charisma, August 1994) 

How different it is today! The tone of today's laughter is mocking and manaical, and
excites nothing but amusement or disgust in others. 



11. STARTED BY RODNEY HOWARD-BROWNE

This phenomenon did not start spontaneously, but was promoted by Rodney
Howard-Browne, a South African who at one time worked as associate Pastor with
the Rhema Word-of-Faith Ministries (Ray McCauley). He can be seen on videos and
heard on audio tapes commanding people to laugh by repeatedly invoking "Ho-ho!
Ha-ha!" over them, and saying things like "Be filled! We loose the power! Have
another drink!". Browne likes to call himself "The Holy Ghost Bartender". 



12. WHAT DOES THE WORD SAY?

Scripture references to laughter are nearly all adverse, to do with mocking and
derision. There is no biblical "gift" of a spirit of laughter. Christian joy is an inward
peace and assurance, not an hysterical outburst of laughter. The Bible tells us that the
fruit of the Spirit is "self-control" and commands: "Let all things be done decently
and in order." (1 Cor 14:40). 

Some of the wilder manifestations, such as roaring and growling are linked in
scripture with the Babylonian religious festivals, which were abandoned orgies of
drunkenness and immorality. God says He will make the feasters drunk so that they
"shout with laughter", then judge them with a perpetual sleep out of which they will
never awake. (Jer 51:37-40 NIV) 

Also, there is no biblical warrant for calling upon the Holy Spirit, or praying to Him
- as happens in connection with this "outpouring". Leaders are inviting spirits to
enter into the meeting room by invoking "Come, Holy Spirit" and similar prayers.
But this is not biblical. Our relationship is with the Father, in Christ Jesus. 



CONCLUSION:

Wherever Christians are, there God will be at work - and in the midst of the bedlam
no doubt some are being truly healed or converted. But these isolated incidents in no
way explain or excuse the current manifestations. 

If the root be bad, then the fruit will be rotten - for no bad tree can bring forth good
fruit. If we look at the roots, at Rodney Howard-Browne's ministry, at the theology
behind the "revival", at the legacy of the Word-of-Faith preachers and the Kansas
City Prophets, and at the headlong downward spiral into apostasy in certain parts of
the Church, we cannot conclude that this present move reverses the trend and anoints
with God's blessing things that have been so abhorrent and deceptive before. 

There seems to be a bland assumption that Christians cannot be deceived, and that
rituals like "claiming the Blood" make one immune from demonic attack. On the
contrary, Jesus warned: "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great
signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you
beforehand". (Matt 24:24-25 NKJ) 

Good intentions are not enough! Not only a thorough knowledge of the Word of God,
but other precautions are required, such as keeping conscious control of our minds
and bodies; guarding against the flesh; dying to self (emotions, desires, etc); and
testing the spirits to see "if they be of God". (1Jo 4:1) 



Tricia Tillin, Banner Ministries, PO Box 23, Belper, Derbyshire, DE56 1QR, UK.
CIS ID: 100074,3125� 

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Mike, there was nothing new in that, nothing you hadn't posted already. 
Could I ask what your reason for posting it was?

Paul

re-1
> there was nothing new in that,

Paul,

At this point isn't that true of 95% of every posting in this conference?
This version contains little new from previous ones at least to my
observation. I'm not suggesting that folks don't need to talk about what's
on their mind but restating the already stated is quite normal here, don't
you think?

Regards,
Ace 

    Paul, it is another confirmation of the dangers of fleshly and demonic
    oppression.  I don't know about you, but I learned a few new things in
    it.  Especially the characteristics of real revivals.
    
    Mike

It's just that you seem to have some sort of crusade against this revival.

I'm not going to argue about it with you here, but I'll say again:

Though I haven't been to any of the high-profile portions of this revival
(such as Toronto), I have been part of the revival in other places.  I have
seen more devotion to Jesus, more devotion to the Word, more willingness to
lay lives aside and follow Him in the churches and groups affected by this
revival than I have seen anywhere else.  For me personally, ministry in the
Holy Spirit that I have received at services much like the Toronto services
has been instrumental in enabling me to stand close beside Jesus during a
very difficult and trying time in my life.

I'd also point out that the 'real revivals' which you speak of were rejected
at the time by many, perhaps most, Christians, using reasoning almost
identical to what you use here.

I am not at all saying that there are no such thing as false revivals, false
teachings, false experiences with the Holy Spirit.  But what I am saying is
that two things are certain:

 1) Some people will sometimes be deceived by what they think is an 
    authentic move of the spirit, and will be caught up in a false revival.

 2) When the Spirit really *DOES* move, many people will reject it as a true
    move of the Spirit because they are too afraid of being deceived by a
    false revival, or because it does not fit their idea of what a revival
    should look like.

I see you being very careful that you not fall into the first trap, and I
call your attention to the possibility of the latter.

Paul

    Ace,
    
    Ok then, be a leader.  Start a new topic.  I personally am hungry for
    some more bible study.  Lead us through a new study that you've done or
    are doing.  Ask a new question.  We do need more new topics.  You
    clearly have the knowledge.  I would love to hear more from you. 
    
    
    Jill

>It's just that you seem to have some sort of crusade against this revival.
    
    I have a crusade against anything that violates the truth of scripture. 
    Your reply leaves me with the impression that you didn't read all of
    the report.

>Though I haven't been to any of the high-profile portions of this revival
>(such as Toronto), I have been part of the revival in other places.  I have
>seen more devotion to Jesus, more devotion to the Word, more willingness to
>lay lives aside and follow Him in the churches and groups affected by this
>revival than I have seen anywhere else.  For me personally, ministry in the
>Holy Spirit that I have received at services much like the Toronto services
>has been instrumental in enabling me to stand close beside Jesus during a
>very difficult and trying time in my life.
    
    The experiences sound positive coming from you, now all you have to do
    is square it with the Word.  The experiences of the Holy Spirit should
    follow the believer; the believer should not be following after the
    experiences.  The latter is another problem with this so-called
    revival.

>I'd also point out that the 'real revivals' which you speak of were rejected
>at the time by many, perhaps most, Christians, using reasoning almost
>identical to what you use here.
    
    The last great real revival we've experienced was the Jesus People
    movement of the late '60s and early '70s.  I remember it and don't
    recall most Christians rejecting it.  It was laced with genuine
    repentance like true revivals are.

> 2) When the Spirit really *DOES* move, many people will reject it as a true
>    move of the Spirit because they are too afraid of being deceived by a
>    false revival, or because it does not fit their idea of what a revival
>    should look like.
>
>I see you being very careful that you not fall into the first trap, and I
>call your attention to the possibility of the latter.

    The Holy Spirit won't move contrary to God's Word.  1 Corinthians 14
    also reminds us that the Spirit is subject to the prophets.  He is a
    Gentleman.  It's as simple as that.  It's the foundation of our faith 
    and of this conference.  Anything else is deception from God knows
    where.
    
    Mike