Conference yukon::christian_v7

    My friend, Ed Guinan, 34 years old is dying.  He was diagnosed in
    February with malignant malinoma, given 6 months to live.  So far it's
    been 8 months since diagnosis.  
    
    Ed and I talked yesterday about the stages that a terminal patient goes
    through.  I was told by one who has experienced the loss of a loved one
    in this way that the stages are:
    
    1. Denial
    2. Anger
    3. Bargaining with God or seeking far fetched cures
    4. Acceptance
    
    The funny thing is that I'm going through the same phases.  
    

            Out of the Shelter

    I'd fleeting glimpses of Death before - 
    A flash of dark and grief.
    But always only from the shelter
    Of youth's naivete and 
    from a safe distance.

    My Grandpa died, oh, long time past
    But he was old and lived far enough away
    that I saw only my Dad's tears of loss
    And heard my Grandmother's cry of pain.
    I didn't see Death daily visiting,
    painfully tearing breath and strength away.

    Then there was Gary - my little sister's boyfriend
    Their youthful romance was already fading
    when he wrapped his car around a tree
    Dying suddenly and swiftly.
    I, seven years older, living in another town,
    Didn't know the boy, but wanted to comfort
    Carolyn with a hug - she pushed my arms away
    I think that then she'd fallen from the shelter
    for awhile, but youth heals fast,
    And there was lots of living to be done.
    And Death's pall was soon gone.

    Two years ago, my grandmother 
    let Death lead her out the door.
    The room of life was colder, quieter,
    But she'd lived life complete
    and left no loose ends undone.
    Though tears freely flowed, especially
    when solemn bells tolled
    as we filed from the church,
    in the cemetary the sun shone clearly.
    And I knew it was okay.

    Last year it was not okay
    when I stood at the side of a hospital bed,
    and watched the covers over a friend
    rise and fall in turbulent heaves like
    the ground along the San Andereas fault 
    in an earthquake.  Though he was weak,
    his grip was strong, as if though 
    he could by clutching our hands,
    hang onto life and so stay.
    His wife's eyes were so dark so deep
    so full of tears and pain
    as she cradled his head and softly said his name,
    that if you looked for long you would have drowned.

    Death's tool then to cleave him from life
    was cancer, and cancer is the same name
    for the threat Death now holds over my Mom.
    I have fallen completely from the shelter,
    and stand in the midst of the storm,
    No safe distance now, protects me from
    the teasing and tormenting of Death 
    who takes all whom one knows and loves.
    So much sadness catches in my throat.
    So much anger churns my insides.
    So much darkness and grief threatens 
    to overtake the citadel of my heart.

    And yet I know that Death, that potent enemy,
    Will not have the final victory.
    For though my grandparents perished,
    And though my parents will one day no longer live,
    And someday Death will fell my husband, and come for me
    And for our children, and maybe their children
    We have a Saviour, who'll raise us up in bodies
    Warm and real, that we may hold hands, and hug
    And sing with real vocal chords,
    Songs that we can hear with real ears.
    We will see each other and we will see Him
    who knows our earthly fill of pain, 
    because He was here and faced Death on a wooden stake.
    Faced Death's torments, teasing, scorn 
    Faced the mockery of all breath stripped away
    And went out by Death's door BUT NOT TO STAY.
                He is the Way 
               to resurrection 
              into life eternal.
    O Death you have no real victory - God reigns
    and has chosen for us - life, unbounded life.


                                       Leslie Johnson
                                       1992

    Leslie,
    
    What can I say, very moving, and very poignant.  Thanks for putting
    this in here.

    Ed this past week very angrily kicked his mother and brother out of his
    apartment.  He said he wanted to be left alone.  To live whatever the
    rest of his life was a whole man, not being coddled.
    
    The suffering he has endured is beyond my comprehension... but I've
    made mistakes in dealing with Ed and  his illness. Mistakes for which 
    I've asked his forgiveness and understanding.   
    
    Ed told me that he wished people would stop giving him false hope or
    putting him in the grave.  Many Christians have prayed prayers of "Give
    Ed grace to die..." at Ed's bedside.  Some have said, "If God wills it
    you can live to be 70!" and all the while his body is failing him.  
    
    He doesn't want false hope, he doesn't want to die.... and both of
    these ideas greatly distress him.  The saddest part yet is that now
    everytime I talk to Ed, he tells me that he believes that this is God's
    judgment on him.
    
    I've told him o'er and o'er that this is not of God... but he insists
    that it is.  He quotes Galatians 6 the entire chapter... and begins to
    by telling me that as an Evangelist, God holds him to a higher
    accountability and that he has sinned.
    
    I've told him that he's not experiencing the fullness of Christ's love
    when he says these things.  That "love covers it all" even that to
    which he holds himself so accountable.
    
    Pray for Ed's ability to forgive himself and to denounce Satan's
    stronghold over his thoughts.  He's asked for God's forgiveness, this
    much I know... but he's believing that inspite of God's forgiveness he
    is reaping God's reward for his sin.
    
    I've had dreams where Ed is a whole man again... and I believe in each
    instance, it's in eternity.  I pray for the day Ed is whole again...
    forgive me Ed.
    
    Nancy

At Jack's deathbed, he wondered to me whether he had done enough for
the kingdom.  Jack was 70 with bone cancer.   People who don't know 
Jack would say he lived his life.  Ed is 34 with 36 years less than Jack.

Jack was a stalwart Christian and it surprised me a little to hear this
from this terminal patient.  The only verse that came to mind that might
be of comfort was "Lord, I believe.  Help Thou my unbelief."  Jack died,
as we all do, and went out with peace some days later.

I saw Bill the night or so before he died of lung cancer.  He was 22
and had 12 fewer years than Ed.  Bill was a stalwart Christian.  I don't
know about his stages of loss, but I know that he and his bride went 
through them.  (His bride was widowed after 9 months of marriage.)
Bill couldn't talk as he lay on the hosptal bed that night with tubes
in him, and he could barely lift his lips.  I told him that I loved him,
and he motioned with his hand that he loved me too.

The fact is that no one knows what the dying are going through.  We observe
it, but we cannot "deal" with it because we are not experiencing it.  We
know that the stress during this time can test understandings of rational
thought.  

Ask Ed where does it say God punishes his people as he thinks God is now.  
He quotes Galatians, saying that teachers and evangelists will be held to 
a higher account, but when is this account paid?  How is this account paid?
How far does forgiveness reach?  What sin is not pardonable?  Has he committed
it?  (No.)  Allow Ed to provide the answers, Nancy.  He knows them.
He doesn't need to be told them, only reminded that they are there.
Then he must deal with how well he believes the answers he knows.

When Christian went through the waters (in Pilgrim's Progress) he was
afraid.  It doesn't matter if you're 22, 34, or 70; what we know here 
has been good and we're faced with a new reality that is yet to be
discovered.

When we face death ourselves, and we all will, can we say that we will not
be afraid?  Peter said he'd go to the death with Jesus.  He didn't.  The
angels said to the shepherds "fear not" but they were "sore afraid."  Until
we are clothed in incorruptible immortality, we still have our human
frailties, and the Lord loves us.  This is an insoluable truth: God love Ed.

Mark

    1. Denial
    2. Anger
    3. Bargaining with God or seeking far fetched cures
    4. Acceptance

Not sure where, but it is five stages and I think Depression is one of them.
(#2, I think).

    Nancy,
    
    You know that I travelled this road with my first wife, after 21 years,
    there were 32 malignant melanomia tumors on her optic nerve.  So here
    are a few cents worth of my thoughts:
    
    This can be the most wonderful time in a person's life.  The ability to
    speak the truth without concern about anything else.  When you know
    that you are dying within a given period of time, you are freed to
    speak as you would want to.  I thank the Lord for the 6 months that my
    wonderful Happy and I spent with total open communication.
    
    The steps you mention in dying are I believe actually seven.  There is
    a good book, "On Death and Dying" by Elizabeth Kubla-Ross (I think
    that is correct). which identifies the steps.  People have frequently
    identified the same steps in going through a divorce.  From your
    description, it sounds like Ed is still at step one, which is denial. 
    It is wonderful, when you reach acceptance, so that you live each day
    as though it were the first day of the rest of your life and as if it
    were the last day of your life.  You continue to do things for the
    future, my wife continued to paint a picture for me, which she suprised
    me with at Christmas, even though her eyes were failing.  She took each
    of us in her arms every day and told us how much she loved us, and let
    me tell you that our two sons (ages 14 and 17) didn't struggle to get
    away like teen-agers often do, they enjoyed those moments with Mom,
    since they might have been the last.  She baked cakes and made donuts
    for the staff at the hospitals she was in and out of and knitted a
    blanket for her Mother.  She and I ended each day first in prayer and
    then in each others arms.  She always whispered in my ear in bed, in a
    partially light hearted way, "Now I lay me down to sleep, if I should
    die before I wake, I pray the Lord my soul to take..."
    
    Yes, we looked into apricot pits and some other remedies and talked
    with our medical staff about the options.  She directed me to re-marry
    and we talked of finances, etc. the very practical.
    
    The most difficult visits were from non-Christians who thought she had
    a lousy break and the Christians who told her God could take away all
    the pain and/or this must be repayment for sin.  We knew that God had a
    plan and we didn't have a clue as to what it might be.  Our role was to
    have faith in Him.  I would stress to Ed to keep and nurture his Faith
    in Jesus, making certain that he does not feel that his situation is
    caused by too little faith, something that many Christians seem to
    convey at times like this.  I would not tell him that God can cure him
    or relieve the pain, because the obvious question is, "Why doesn't He?"
    
    Tears are very important.  My wonderful family doctor called me one day
    and had me come to his office as the last appointment.  He sat down
    with me and talked until I was crying uncontrollably.  He helped me dry
    my tears and comforted me. Then he told me I must do the same with my
    sons and with Happy.
    
    Laughter is also very important.  Happy and I broke up over stupid
    things, like the slax that would slide off over the hips that had lost
    so much weight.  Or the bra that was no longer filled because of the
    wieght loss.  We read the comics together as a family and watched the
    Three Stooges and other slap-stick comedy.  When the boys or I did
    something kinda stupid, we all laughed and enjoyed.  Happy laughed when
    we went to our son's football games, because she couldn't see well
    enough to see his number, but she never let me tell him she couldn't, I
    had to brief her on the passes he threw, etc.  She enjoyed his
    amazement, when she said, "I'm glad you completed the slant, but the
    deep curl was wide open for a touchdown if you had thrown it".
    
    Don't spend a lot of time telling the patient anything.  Let them lead
    the way.  Support them, encourage and be there - touch is sometimes far
    more important than anything you can say.  Just holding hands, a hand 
    on the shoulder, a hug - one size fits all!
    
    Daryl 
    
    Be reasonable in your responses and suggestions.  Happy and I went to
    see our son play in a four day basketball tournament.  I didn't say to
    her, "This may be your last chance, so would you like to go...?" 
    Instead, I said, "If I can get three days off at work, would you like
    to go to Jim's Redding Tournament?  I have reservations at a Motel 6,
    Dr. Lowe thinks the travel is okay, so how about it?"
    
    
    

	I am recovering from yet another cycle of depression.  This time I have a
a different kind of feeling.  While I am falling and falling into that
bottomless hole, in stead of trying to climb back up by myself(even with prayers
to God to pull me up), I feel Jesus is "falling" with me.  While I think I can
not use my own little strength to pull myself up, I think eventually Jesus can.
I have been thinking where did Jesus go during the three days after he was
nailed on the cross.  I think He may be kept on falling to the real bottom of
the Hell and broke the Satan's head and came back up.  I have this assurance
that since Jesus is with me and He has the absolute power to pull me up
therefore I am not afraid of falling anymore(let it fall Devil, you know *we*
will come back).  I can even do something with the little strength left in me. 
And that must be Jesus.  I know this "little"(to me is not) experience is
nothing in comparison to terminal illness but I still would like to pray that
Ed can see that Jesus is with him and suffering with him.

Wally

    Mark, Daryl and Wally,
    
    Those were moving words and experiences.  Daryl your firsthand
    experience has helped me more then you'll ever know.  And Wally your
    last sentence is a sentence that our very own Ben Price told me not too
    long ago... and he ministered to my heart as he told me that as I
    minister to and serve Ed during this time, I'm serving Jesus as well,
    for Jesus is suffering along with Ed.
    
    Thanks for the wisdoms.

      Hi,
    
        What a nice topic full of wonderful replies!
    
        Leslie, what a beautiful poem!  Does this refer partly to 
        the young man who worked for Digital and who had leukemia?
        I thought of him just a week or so ago.  I wonder how his 
        wife is doing.  Do any of you know?
    
        I lost a brother ~8 years ago.  He was a year younger than
        me and we were very close.  The grief was pretty strong.  He
        had cerebral palsey and I think this in part caused me to look
        upon him more tenderly than I otherwise might have.  I just 
        always wanted so much more for him than he sometimes seemed
        to have.
    
        No doubt, death is an intruder riding the coat-tails of sin.
        It has no place in God's universe and some day it truly will
        not be anymore.  The universe will only be filled with those
        whose hearts are pledged to Christ.
    
        Nancy, I know your friend feels God is condemning him because
        of the immensity of the experience and it being his own.  Clearly,
        Rwanda and other tragedies suggest that the cause of death is 
        not God nor condemnation on His part, but must be in part due to
        His somehow not always being able to intervene.  There is a great
        controversy between Christ and Satan and somehow too much inter-
        vention would seem to not be allowable.  Somehow and for some 
        reason, the fruits of sin must be self-evident.  Thus pain is some-
        thing that must be witnessed (as well as its root cause - sin) and
        thus we're sitting in a grey area, i.e. there must be some pain and
        who are we finite creatures to know how much is enough?
    
        As far as talking to your friend, I think wonderful guidelines have
        been given here.  I can't imagine improving on those.  
    
        I would only suggest that the Lord has promised that He would give
        you words in season for the weary ones.  Lay hold by faith on that
        promise and perhaps more than good guidelines, the conviction may
        rest on your heart to say just the words and to do just the acts
        that Jesus Himself would have you to do.
    
                                                     God Bless,
    
                                                     Tony
       

    Ed told me today that mine and others lack of faith that God can heal
    him will be part of the reason why God doesn't heal him. 
    
    [thud]
    
    And then I began to explain to Ed that when I pray, I pray, "Lord, help
    thou my unbelief" and that God is bigger then my lack of faith.  I
    explained that I believe God *can*, just don't know if he *will*.
    
    I've not seen a healing of someone like Ed within the last 15 years. 
    Prior to this time, I have.   
    
    I have incredible peace about his situation, a peace that cannot be
    explained, even though I've gone through anger and questioning.
    
    I've prayed with faith early on that God would heal him, but his stages
    have advanced so far [to the point of days being left] that I cannot
    pray that way any longer.  Now I believe healing will come when Ed is
    glorified.
    
    Lord, help thou my unbelief....

could it be that prior to 15 years ago you were still a child?

    Could be - what I stated was that I haven't *seen* with my own eyes
    someone I know or someone I know who knows of someone who has been
    healed of terminal cancer in the last 15 years.
    
    

    God is doing a work in me regarding this topic.
    
    I've come to realize that Jesus had a terminal illness as well.
    
    :-)  

      "Lord I believe, help Thou mine unbelief."  One of my 
      favorite scriptures and one of my favorite prayers.
    
      Keep praying it sis!
    
                                               Tony

�      "Lord I believe, help Thou mine unbelief."  

  One which hurts me to find I fall so far short of Him I desire to be like...

I ache at the necessity to pray it again.  And again....

How can I entertain as part of me that weakness I long to repudiate?

One day I won't need to any more.  That day I look forward to sooo much...

							Andrew

    In my experience, death is always hard.  It hurts, it's sad, it
    is NOT natural.  Denial is one of the stages one goes through in
    facing death because death, though it comes to every living thing 
    on this earth, is not normal.  Its an enormous and almost incomp-
    rehensible abnormality.  

    We were created and designed for eternity, and God put eternity in
    our hearts.  I foget where in the Bible it says that, but it does
    say God placed eternity in our hearts - which I think means we have
    this insatiable longing for life to be eternal.  Instead, we are
    like the grass of the field - here one day, dust blown away on the 
    wind the next.  Praise the Lord though that we can face death not 
    as those who have no hope, but as those who look forward to being 
    with the Lord, and look forward to the resurrection when we will be 
    in the right state, the state that we were designed to be - then
    there will be no more tears, no more pain, and no more death.

    I have been touched by death's hand on people I care deeply about
    several times.  It never gets any easier, and when I have to face it 
    for myself, I know it will be even harder.  I don't know what to do 
    for a dying person other than assure them that Jesus will be waiting 
    for them, that I love them, and that they are not alone --- though in 
    another sense, they are very much alone when facing death.  I think 
    this is another thing that makes dying so hard and scary.

    I can remember with my mother when I went over to visit one day.
    She had gotten very weak, was in quite a bit of pain much of the time,
    but was still very aware and able to sit up, eat, and talk a little.  
    Mom wanted to sit up, and so I helped her do that, and swing her legs
    off the bed so she was sitting sideways. I sat down beside her, we 
    weren't talking very much -- what was left to say?  Everything had
    narrowed down to simple existence for her because there was no real 
    tomorrow left.  What one does today seems trivial and empty when you 
    know there is no tomorrow.

    She finally spoke, and said "Its so hard, isn't it?"  

    "Yes, Mom it is hard, but I'm going to be okay, and you're going to be 
    okay too.  We're going to be okay because there is more than this."  

    She nodded, and we hugged and cried, knowing that when she when was okay 
    again, I wouldn't be able to sit next to her and talk with her because
    she would be with the Lord, I would still be on earth.
   
    So just let Ed know that you love him, you care about him, and he is
    important to you.  I think that when death approaches, physical contact,
    holding hands, arranging bedding and pillows to relieve pressure points,
    giving sips of water, or cooling the brow with a soft, cool cloth almost
    become more meaningful and important than words.  I mean what's left to
    say except that its hard, but glory and Jesus await on the other side.

    Leslie

	Nancy,

	I mentioned this to you in mail not long ago, but was reminded of
	it agian this morning.  I have noticed that when people here
	the words "terminal", they begin to think in the natural.  Prayers
	go from prayers for healing to prayers for "God's will" and "God's
	mercy".  Why is that we think God can provide healing only for
	those things that are not deemed "terminal" by the doctors ?  Is
	God not above ALL things, even cancer ??  Or do people think that
	God won't really do the big miracles anymore, because no one
	would believe it ??  

	I am seeing more and more each day how clearly God provides for us.

	An example is that we accepted less for our home than we had
	planned.  In the weeks since the offer was accepted, God has
	provided us with the difference in various ways (some ordinary,
	some extraordinary).  In calculating the total, it actually
	exceeds the difference!

	He has also healed Emily from a persistent cough that was so 
	bad it made her throw up.  Jamie went into our room and prayed
	while I was trying to get her comfortable, and she slept right
	through the night!

	Yes, to those suffering great pain, death would seem a welcome
	relief.  But imagine the joy, the testimony, the rejoicing of
	a total and complete healing without death ??  

	I am still covering Ed in prayer, but am praying for his healing.
	I know that my God is able.

	I'm praying for you, too, sis - to know what to pray and how to
	love and minister to Ed.  I'm thanking God for placing you there
	to help him, too!

	Karen

>Prayers go from prayers for healing to prayers for "God's will" and "God's 
>mercy". 

A very interesting observation, Karen.

We do have a tension between "our faith" and "God's sovereignty."
My friend Bill (22) and his bride worked so hard to expunge doubt
from their minds regarding Bill's healing - and Bill died.

There are a bunch of things to reflect upon:

(a) There is a time for everything (including living and dying)
        (Ecclesiastes 3)

(b) Jesus was restrained from some miracles because of lack of faith
        (in his own town)

(c) Jesus chooses who to heal
        (Jesus healed on the sabbath; Jesus told the gentile woman
          that it wasn't right to give the bread to the dogs.)

(d) But importunity has caused Jesus to choose to heal
        ("Son of David, have mercy on me." "I want to see!"
          And the woman responded that the dogs eat the crumbs...)

(e) We do not effect the healing; we only glorify God when we assent in 
       faith
         ("Silver and gold have I none, but what I have I give thee.
           In the name of Jesus..."  "Why do you stare at me as if I
           had anything to do with this man's healing?"  Acts)

(f) God IS sovereign
        ("The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away.  Blessed be the name of 
          the Lord." Job.)

(g) (under (f)) God is merciful and just - paradoxically co-existent concepts


    Perhaps we should always be praying for God's mercy instead of getting
    there as the "waters rise" and we begin to see our faith ebb.  Perhaps
    this is the place we should be all along because we cannot help ourselves
    or anyone else.  And after we've prayed for God's mercy upon us and upon
    those others, we should then pray for God's will, and then for His healing.

Mark

    The last several replies leave me with a problem, which is in getting
    too specific with our request to God.  He knows that I wanted my wife
    healed, before I spoke to Him.  But, I always looked back and
    understood that it was His will, regardless of the situation.  When I
    prayed for the surgeon's hands to be steady, swift and sure, or when I
    asked His will for my wife (which, was probably really asking Him to
    let me know what His will was).  I feel strange in telling God in
    certain situations what I want the outcome to be(although He knows what
    I want), but I am more at ease in asking that the process go well (the
    surgeon's hands be swift and certain), which still does not define the
    final outcome.
    
    I ask for assistance in meeting the needs of someone in need, or of
    giving me the power to cope - but I don't think I should presume to
    tell the Lord, to give me a job as CIO of a company, but rather to give
    me the strength, courage, wisdom to seek, find and resolve my present
    problem.
    
    I don't think we're asking for less when we hear "terminal", rather we
    are recognizing that it is His decision, even though we want that
    person to live.  He knows that!
    
    Daryl

    .20
    
    So when someone has a "terminal" illness we should just accept it as
    God's judment and not pray for healing?

    Nancy,
    
    God knows why we are praying.  Certainly, we ask for relief of pain,
    but we must be careful about telling Him what the outcome should be.
    We ask for healing, but we remind Him that we know He will do what is
    best in this situation.  This is not easy and I hope that I have not
    conveyed that I ever gave up for a single moment wanting my wife healed
    and confident that the Lord could do it if it was the correct thing. 
    This meant that I found the best doctors, the best hospital, I read
    about the disease, I sought alternative avenues, etc., but I still left
    it in His hands.  He is in charge, but I must do all I can!
    
    In His love,
    
    Daryl
    

�    So when someone has a "terminal" illness we should just accept it as
�    God's judment and not pray for healing?

You can only pray within your faith.  Sickness - and death - is not from
God, but from the mortality of the fall.  Sometimes we need to step outside
our human understanding to receive God's view on a situation.  The fighting
and rejection comes from the human spirit, which stops us from hearing or
receiving God's Word into the situation.

When Paul considered his own death, he was able to say :
 "For me to live is Christ and to die is gain.  If I am to go  on living in 
  the body, this will mean fruitful labour for me. Yet what shall I choose?  
  I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with 
  Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I 
  remain in the body...."

						Philippians 1:21-24

Peter said :
 "I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent 
  of this body, because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our LORD 
  Jesus has made clear to me..."
						2 Peter 1:13-14

In this situation, Paul anticipated death as the door into the living 
presence of the LORD - as it is for each of us...  But he knew he had to 
wait for this particular joy, because he had more work to do down here.

Peter knew, on the other hand, that his death was imminent.  Though he was 
old, his death wasn't a natural wearing out, but a violent execution (John 
21:18-19).  Yet he is able to anticipate it peacefully, because he knew the 
One Who would be with him throughout; Whom he would see when the tent of 
the flesh was set aside.

We need to step apart from the natural bias of human eyes, to see how God 
sees us.  When my task here is complete, remaining is of no value to me or 
to God.  It would hinder others from moving into my place as they develop 
under God's hand; it would prolong the temporal joys which fade anyway, 
while holding me back from the eternal joys.  Where all God's children are
progressively assembling.  My one sadness is that I have so little to 
offer Him, from so weak a life offered...  My joy is that at least what 
there is, is for Him...

Until my task here is complete, I am physically immortal, because it is 
God's work we are doing; not just our own.  Or even digital's...

If my friend, Peter, were to walk through the door, it would be so natural
that I think I'd be well into conversation with him before suddenly
realising that he *can't* be here - he died last month in an accident.  I
know it in my mind, but it still doesn't seem possible.  He was young (only
30!).  His dimension of living was real and exciting, and moving on for the
LORD.  As I remember it, I have to stop and pray for his widow (that word
sticks in my throat still too - she's his wife...) Jane, and the total life 
change this is for her continually.   The prayers for his safety were not
lacking faith on that day, but God mercifully concealed that his perfect
safety meant the safety of heaven....


 "Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of His saints..."
								Psalm 116:15
 because He can then say to them personally :
			"Well done, good and faithful servant..."
You've done the job!

     ==================================================================

Have You got more for Ed to do LORD?  Or is it time for others to take up 
the tasks You had entrusted to him?  Help us to walk the road with him as 
he approaches the gates of death, whether he goes through at this time or 
not, that he might be, most of all, aware of Your closeness and love, and 
ready - eager - for whatever path You have for him.  Humanly his mortal 
frame may be beyond repair, but You are the God of Creation and the God of 
miracles.  The decision lies not in man's wisdom or weakness, but in Your 
glorious purposes.  We trust in You alone for our eternity.  Help us to 
trust You with our time.

						In Jesus Name....

Nancy,
  I was thinking about this "punishment thing" and it struck me that
this is the very same reasoning Job's friends were giving to Job for
his troubles.  Now, Someone may object and say, "yes, but Job was
righteous and we know when we've done something in the past.  We're
not righteous like Job."
  Perhaps that's true, but perhaps not.  Not long ago in the conference,
we were talking about forgiveness and how it is that reminders of past
sins is not from God, but from the Devil.  If God has forgiven our sins, 
then the sin is gone.  
  Now, we have talked about consequences.  Unwed parents have a constant
reminder of fornication, for example.  
  Maybe a reflection on what punishment is versus a consequence. 
  Does God punish?  
  Does God allow circumstances to happen even after forgiveness?
  Is this a punishment?  Who administers the punishment?
  
  I haven't thought this all through, but I do know that the Bible says
that God rebuked Job's friends for their incorrect assumptions. 

Job 38:2  "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?"

  Now, I hope I haven't darkened any counsel here, myself.

Mark

    I think we must be prepared to pray for healing of so-called terminal
    illnesses. Although these illness often do prove terminal, miraculous
    healings do occur, and prayer is needed for that. Our church's current
    temporary pastor (waiting for a new one to be found...) is David
    Mumford, whose daughter Julie Sheldon was healed completely of a
    painful and destructive disease of the nervous system. She is perhaps
    the first person in medical history to be healed of this disease. Her
    illness was definitely "terminal", but there was a series of prayer
    events and reassurances from God which were the milestone's in God's
    intervention in her life. She was a ballet dancer who became confined
    to bed, close to death and in so much pain she didn't know how to
    continue. God sent a series of people to pray with her, and she was
    healed completely within a few months. Now she is fit and well and she
    spoke at the New Wine conference in England earlier this year. She's
    written a book about her experiences called "Dancer off her feet",
    which is one of the most unputdownable books I've read in years.
    
    So yes - let's bring compassion, realism, support and encouragement with 
    an eye on the possibility of death, but don't let's neglect the
    possibility that our prayer for healing can produce real results.
    
    Bless you all for faithfulness to our risen Lord and Saviour, and thank
    you for your prayerful contributions to this conference.
    
    				God bless,	 		Richard.  

    Often so much our lives seems to be about control, of ourselves, of
    situations, etc., and when an individual faces death, he or she is
    faced with the fact that in fact we really have very little control.
    There must be *something* we can do. I find disturbing the idea that if
    an individual is not healed it is because of a lack of faith, their
    own, or that of those around them. Jesus told us about faith, that a
    tiny amount could move mountains, that whatever we ask for in His name
    would be ours, and yet, Jesus himself, of all men one who could move
    mountains, prayed that the cup of death might pass from him, but not
    His own will but God's will be done. Our faith, I think, should not be
    about controlling our circumstances, but rather, is about yieldedness
    to Him. As Christians, as God's own children, I believe we are
    surrounded by His care, His protection, and that nothing can come to
    us, unless He first allows it through. I agree with Leslie that the 
    interruption of death is jarring because we are eternal beings, and our 
    nature cries out out at the thought of ending. But through Christ, we 
    know indeed that it is not an ending but a beginning. Much of the fear, 
    I think, for the Christian comes in there because what is to come is in 
    many ways, an unknown, and never do we feel we have done enough here to
    warrant joining Him. But that is as it should be, for we can not do 
    enough, only trust Him, for He has done it for us and we are small and He 
    is vast. He is God, sovereign and pure, perfect in power and in love, and 
    all our significance is in Him, and we must be ever aware that our
    prayers of faith will be answered through His perfect will. 
    
    Rebecca  

    re .26
    
    Amen, Rebecca!
    
    Bing

    It's funny how so many circumstances seem to have man wanting to
    control everything instead of letting God take control.  This applies
    to salvation as well as healing.
    
    Mike

RE: 612.26 by Rebecca

>>    Often so much our lives seems to be about control, of ourselves, of
>>    situations, etc., and when an individual faces death, he or she is
>>    faced with the fact that in fact we really have very little control.
>>    There must be *something* we can do. I find disturbing the idea that if
>>    an individual is not healed it is because of a lack of faith, their
>>    own, or that of those around them. Jesus told us about faith, that a
>>    tiny amount could move mountains, that whatever we ask for in His name
>>    would be ours, and yet, Jesus himself, of all men one who could move
>>    mountains, prayed that the cup of death might pass from him, but not
>>    His own will but God's will be done. Our faith, I think, should not be
>>    about controlling our circumstances, but rather, is about yieldedness
>>    to Him. 

I had been mulling this topic over in my mind, and was trying to find a way
to put into words the very idea that Rebecca has so well expressed here.  

If we pray, "Father, help me to face what seems to be coming, keep my
faith strong, be with me as I die and take me home safe with you.  Help me
to be peaceful about this, to be a light for my family and friends right
until the very end.", or if we pray "Father, if it be your will heal XXX and
bring them back from the brink of death to be in this world a little longer,
but if it is not your will, then help XXX face what is coming, comfort them,
make real to them the promise of Your salvation and resurrection, keep them
from painful suffering, and ease their release on this life" does it mean 
that we do not have faith in God?  

Eventually everyone dies, now or at some point in the future.  Does this 
idea of death being because one's faith, or one's friends' faith is not strong
enough mean we all eventually loose faith, since we all do die?  (This is a 
rhetorical question by the way, I know the answer is no, lack of faith is
not the cause of the end of our lives).

Leslie

Andrew Yuille illuminated death some weeks back when he stated that
God views death in a different way than we do.  And when we attempt
to see things from God's perspective, this implication is rather
challenging.

Mark

Are you referring to 612.23 ?

Leslie

>Are you referring to 612.23 ?

No.  This was a comment he made some months ago and I've forgotten the
note or context.  Nevertheless, some thoughts rummage around for a while.

Mark

P.S.  Thanks, Rebecca.

      Amen Leslie and Rebecca.
    
      I have yet to have the discernment that God wanted a person
      healed or if it was time for them to leave this earthly
      life.  So, I've prayed with much your words Leslie.  That
      God's will be done and blessings result from it and we 
      respond to His will in blessed way.
    
                                              Tony

With you, Tony....  It would be a most difficult thing to give someone,
that the LORD wanted them home with Him, unless their relationship with the
LORD was evidently more real than their earthly roots.  You would also need
to know them very well - and love them very much - to be able to share such
a message without damage.

At one church I attended, the (fairly) young pastor had cancer, and the
eldership told his wife that they couldn't pray for healing because they
thought the LORD was calling him home.  The pastor himself knew this from
the LORD, but for him it was a precious call - the voice of the One he
loved, welcoming him.  From the elders to the wife, it came like a blow from
a blunt instrument.  Largely, I believe, because the friction in the elders
meeting had made for strain in fellowship.  They hadn't the LORD's love to
convey the message... 

And thanks, too, Rebecca...

								Andrew

    Nancy,

    How is Ed doing?  I have been thinking and praying about him, and 
    also you.

    With love through Him in whom there is no ending,

    Leslie

    The doctors give Ed very little time now.  He's experiencing cerebral
    hemorhaging slowly but constantly.  He's had another mild seizure but
    they are prerequisisites to the one that most likely will take his
    life.  The pain is intolerable.  He's constantly getting morphine via a
    needle into his stomach.
    
    However, last night I went over John 11 again where Jesus speaks of why
    he must die.  There are some parallels, albeit small ones between Jesus
    and Ed.
    
    Jesus was estimated to be around 33 years of age when he died
    
    	Ed is 34 years of age
    
    Jesus walked amongst the people and preached salvation.
    
    	Ed walked amongst gangs in San Jose and preached salvation.
    
    Jesus said that he must die so that Satan would be cast out.
    
    	Satan will have no victory in Ed's death.
    
    Jesus said that his death would bring more life.
    
    	I pray that Ed's death would bring more to Christ... his family
    	two sisters and Mom [still waiting on Dad] have received him.
    	
    
    I feel somewhat like Mary may have.  Remember Mary annointed Christ
    with Spikenard [expensive oil for burying].  She may have had
    discernment that Christ was going to die and soon. 
    
    Most of the people in Ed's life pretend as though he isn't going to
    die.  Ed told me I'm the only person who listens to him with the
    attentiveness of knowing that his words could be his last words, his
    wishes are to be taken seriously and that his pain is goes deeper then
    the illness.
    
    May God give me wisdom and courage to be with Ed as he needs me.
    
    

Nancy, 

Is Ed at peace in his heart with the situation before the LORD? 
Last time you referred to this, he was still rejecting it...

 - Just to know how to shape the prayers.

And if possible, pass on love from someone praying for him...

							Andrew

    Pain does terrible things to people... 
    
    Ed is secure... but only God truly knows his heart... he vacillates.

	Reading through the replies here, I believe that my reply
	earlier was not very clear.  Nancy, I hope it caused you
	no trouble.  

	What I was saying was that some people hear terminal,
	they believe that God's work is already complete.  I was
	only trying to say that God is *still* able to heal, even
	when doctors say terminal.

	Nancy, my heart goes out to you and Ed.  Although I've
	never watched someone go through a terminal illness, in a way
	I feel I've walked in your shoes with the situation we
	went/are going through with Jamie.  Even now, 2 years after
	surgery, we have days where one or both of us ask "where are
	you, God?".  Ed's situation breaks my heart, and Jamie's, but
	has also taught us that for all we went through, there is much
	we were spared (mostly in the tumors being benign).  

	Weeping a few tears for you both, now, and praying still.

	*********************************************************

	Dear Lord, we know not the plans you have for this situation.
	We all want to feel as though there is something we can say
	or do in this situation to help Nancy and Ed, but we know
	that you are in control, and only those words you give us
	can provide comfort.  Guide us oh Lord in our words to
	Nancy, and help us to be comfort to her.  Grant peace to Ed
	in the midst of this trial.  Jesus, I can remember feeling your
	arms around me when I cried out to you for comfort.  Wrap your
	loving arms around Ed and envelope him in your love, that even
	in pain he may find a warm and comfortable place.  I beseech you
	Lord to be ever more real to Ed now.  Amen

>    Pain does terrible things to people... 

Yes it does.  And sometimes it removes rationality.  And we should let God
be God during this time.

I heard on the radio a few days back that people who are dying stop 
eating near the end.  The reason they found is that the lack of nourishment
causes them to sleep a lot and be sleepy, easing the pain.  It may be
a subconscious reflex, like pulling away from a flame because it is hot.
They said that dying patients fed intravenously experience more pain.
This is not information I use in conversation with Ed at this time, but
it is something to be aware of and not force an issue of eating if the
patient really doesn't want to.  It's not a starve.  Making Ed comfortable
seems to me to be the more importnat thing during this time of pain and
discomfort.

You are in a privileged place, Nancy.

Mark

    .40
    
    Thanks Mark... that is good information.
    
    Nancy

    Karen,
    
    Thanks for you prayers, Sis.  Your words bring much encouragement.
    
    Love in Him,
    Nancy

    
    Im just after some advice on what I can do to help Ruth, Arnold and
    Emily as Ruth has an inoperable brain tumour. I have not had anyone
    close to me die or be really sick so I dont know what they are going
    through and in what ways they might need help. One think I have done is
    made a casserole for them for tea as they ( Emily and Arnold ) are
    only finishing tea after 9pm due to spending time at the hosiptal. This
    will change soon as Ruth is due to go home soon. What other things can
    I do to help?

Be willing to listen without interupting or offering solutions.  Be willing
to mourn and cry with them.  Pray for them.

Leslie

� Be willing to listen without interupting or offering solutions.  

That's one place where I feel that Job's comforters did the right thing, in 
2:13 :

  "They sat .. with him for seven days and seven nights.  No-one said a word 
   to him, because they saw how great his suffering was."

You need to be sensitive to their need of the moment.  Sometimes behaving
almost 'as normal', where they are making that effort, but ready and aware
to meet them where they are...  helping out with the odd chores, food 
preparation etc is often a welcome relief...

							Andrew

	I agree that meals can be a big help, or an offering of time
	to assist around the house.

	We've often organized at the church level to prepare meals
	for those that are ill.  I've only had the opportunity to
	assist once, for a family where the mother/wife was terminally
	ill with cancer.  Each of us prepared one night's meal and
	delivered it to the house.  I also decided to bake some muffins
	and bring them with the dinner.

	The family was most grateful... her husband even had a luncheon
	a few months after her death to thank us all for the meals.  It
	was very very touching.

	In addition to praying for them, offer to pray *with* them.
	On many occasions after we learned of Jamie's first tumor, we
	were lifted up and encouraged when friends and family would 
	offer to pray with us.  (I even remember quite fondly the time
	my mother asked if we could all pray together, saying that she
	didn't think she'd actually know what to pray, but thought that
	we all should!)  I also remember missing it when we found out
	about Jamie's second tumor...

	Karen