Conference yukon::christian_v7

Fascinating, John.  Thanks.  I don't know much at all about the early music 
forms, but presume all the notes would be naturals, rather than using the 
F# which the classical ear would expect, with it ending on G...  Presumably 
tha scale is not all full tones, as there would need to be a semi- between 
D, and the lowest F used.  Is emphasis only on the bar, with no appreciable 
sub-divisions?  Some of these things took a while to get through...!

							Andrew

There is a b-flat.  Almost all plainsong is in the key of F-major.

The "G" is the indicator of the "G" (treble) clef.  That big swirly thing
on regular music is actually a "G"; the thing on the "F" (bass) clef is
an "F".  The "b" is a flat indicator, not a "B".

/john

Ah! I see!  I am familiar with the different clefs (though I'd rather not
try to play from the 'C' clefs!), and I was assuming that the upper and
lower casing indicated the octave. 

Thanks John 

						Andrew 

    Lots of congregational singing is done in 1 or 2 flats (F or Bb).  They're 
    very good keys for the many different vocal ranges you get with multiple
    singers.

Seems rather a generalisation!  From the traditional hymn-book perspective,
one gets a fair spread over the keys (albeit with peaks and troughs).  4#
seems quite popular, but maybe that's just over here... 

The range of pitch isn't necessarily centred on the keynote, and it's the 
highest and lowest notes that determine the comfort zone, rather than the  
keynote.

An interesting consideration is how the key affects the character of a
piece.  One of my music books describes the sound character of each key. 
While I suspect it takes a lot of doing to hear as much as they describe,
there certainly are different characters in different keys - especially,
for instance, between the sharp and flat keys which lie close on the scale.
In composition, or choosing a pitch, to get precisely the desired effect, 
there is an optimum key...

							Andrew

    Andrew, there was a time when we (members of the orchestra) played
    everything as it appears in the hymnals/chorus books.  We received far
    too many complaints due to people not being able to sing along.  F and
    Bb are safe.  C and D are fairly safe too.  
    
    Even when we didn't know better, we would never do a song in 4#'s,
    unless it was in another mode like Aeolian.  For the sake of our
    sanity, and allowing everyone the chance to enter in and worship, we
    transpose on the fly ;-)
    
    Mike

 What's 4 #s? (Yes I know its 4 sharps)..just can't remember what key
that is 



Jim who's been trying to get the musical knowledge part of his brain working
again

E would be 4 sharps.

C-sharp would be 5 sharps.

whole-whole-half-whole-whole-whole-half (which you remember by imagining
a keyboard, and begin at C).

/john

                         C          
       (1 b)          F      G          (1 #)
       (2 b's)     Bb          D        (2 #'s)
       (3 b's)   Eb              A      (3 #'s)
       (4 b's)     Ab          E        (4 #'s)
       (5 b's)       Db      B          (5 #'s)
                         Gb
    
        The flats also could be:
        Bb = A#
        Eb = D#
        Ab = G#
        Db = C#
        Gb = F#

Hi Mike,

Were they singing from the tonic sol-fa?  Otherwise it's hard to imagine 
any reason for one key to be more difficult than another, for voice.  I 
remember when I started accompanying being mildly surprised at the amount 
4# came up...

							&

    >Were they singing from the tonic sol-fa?  
    
    Is that ever a blast from the past! ;-)  I'm not a classical musician
    nor am I European.  Out west, we tend to represent things a little
    differently.  If I remember right, the fixed solfege that classical 
    musicians use (Do based on middle C) looks like:
    
       Do  Di/Ra  Re  Ri/Me  Mi  Fa  Fi/Se  Sol  Si/Le  La   Li/Te  Ti  Do
    
        C   C#/Db  D   D#/Eb  E   F   F#/Gb   G   G#/Ab  A    A#/Bb  B   C
    
    Given that, am I right to assume Sol is key of G (i.e., major tonic)
    and Fa (or F) is the dominant 7th or did I completely miss it?
    
    Mike

Music notation through the ages is a study in itself. The oldest forms of pitch
and duration notation we invented by the singers to remind themselves what to do
when singing melodies passed by ear from one sing to the next generation. Most
of these old notations have never been decoded. I suspect that the melody given
in 611.0 is somes ones guess (educated guess) of what could have been used in
the first century, but no-one really knows.

John (note 611.0) has written the melody in a from of plain song, probably the
oldest notation still used today. I found it quite readable, but then I used to
sing a lot of plain song.

Don't forget that the Apostles would have sung in Aramaic or possible Greek.

Peter.

PS. E major -> 4 sharps
    B major -> 5 sharps
    F# major -> 6 sharps
    C# major -> 7 sharps

Hi Mike, 

I have never been used to singing from the sol-fa, but it was the only
notation I could think of which was key-independent, and would therefore
match the criteria your note suggested to me.  In my youth (at school) I
came across its use a little, but I never liked it, being more used to the 
full keyboard notation. 

�    Given that, am I right to assume Sol is key of G (i.e., major tonic)
�    and Fa (or F) is the dominant 7th or did I completely miss it?
    
You missed it, bro.  I think ;-)

It's a notation of intervals. 'Doh' is the tonic, in whatever key you're
placed.  'Soh' is the dominant, etc, as :

	    	Doh Re  Mi  Fah Soh  La  Te
	In C	C   D   E   F   G    A   B
	In G	G   A   B   C   D    E   F#
	In E	E   F#  G#  A   B    C#  D#

I think that's approximately the idea, but it's many, many years since I've
taken any notice of it, or even seen it, and even then, only in vocal
music.  It may well be age, rather than location, which put it bwyond yuor 
experience... ;-)

								Andrew

>I suspect that the melody given in 611.0 is somes ones guess (educated guess)
>of what could have been used in the first century, but no-one really knows.

You ignore the fact that it is virtually identical to a Hebrew cantillation
of Zechariah 2:10.  We have this tune passed down through two different
traditions that diverged in the first century.  So it's a lot more than a
guess.

Although the version in .0 is an English adaptation of the tune, in the next
reply I will post the same cantillation with the Latin words.  Where the
phrases are longer, there are more notes, but the tune is still recognizably
the same.  In fact, I entered the English version first, and then was able to
enter the Latin version with very few changes -- I used some editing macros
to expand or contract the staff (or move it down to the next line) and only
had to add or remove a few notes.

I was visiting friends in Germany this spring, and I asked "do you know this
tune"?  I whistled the version I know (the English version), and my friend's
wife (who is a Lutheran), immediately knew what it was and said "Vater unser
gesungen".

I'm sure the Greek version (which I don't have) is substantially the same as
well.

/john

---b-----------------------x--------------------------------------------------
             x   xx |         x          ||            x          x   x     ||
--G-------x---------|--x---------xx------||--x------x-----x----x-----x---xx-||
      x             |                xx  ||      x         x  x             ||
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Pa-ter no-ster, qui es in cae-lis,    san-cti-fi-ce-tur no-men tu-um;
                                                 
---b------x-----------------------------------------------------------------
       x     x  x     x         ||  x  x     x           |           x    
--G----------------x------xx----||--------x------x--xx---|-x------x-----x---
                             xx ||                    xx |    x          x
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

      ad-ve-ni-at re-gnum tu-um;   fi-at vo-lun-tas tu-a, si-cut in cae-lo,

---b--------------------------------------------x--------------------------
          x   x     ||        x    x   x     x     x  x      x           ||
--G----x-----x--xx--||----x---------------x--------------x------x--------||
      x             || x                                           xx xx ||
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

      et in ter-ra.    Pa-nem no-strum co-ti-di-a-num da no-bis ho-di-e;

---b---------------x-----------------------------------------------------
                x      x  x     x          ||           x      x         
--G---x------x---------------x-----xx------||-x-----x-------x------x--x--
         x                             xx  ||    x                       
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

      et di-mit-te no-bis de-bi-ta no-stra,  si-cut et nos di-mit-ti-mus

---b----------------------------------------------------------------------
             x                ||              x                         ||
--G-------x-----x-----xx--xx--||--------x--x------x--x---x-----x--x-----||
       x           x          ||    x                       x      x xx ||
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                 x
      de-bi-to-ri-bus no-stris;  et ne nos in-du-cas in ten-ta-ti-o-nem;

---b--------------------------------------------------------------x------
                       x       ||                                x   x 
--G-------x--x--x---x----x-----||------x-x-x---x---x---x---x----------xx-
       x                  x xx ||     x                       x        
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   x
      sed li-be-ra nos a ma-lo.   Qui-a tu-um est re-gnum, et po-te-stas

---b---------------------------------------
                   x           ||        || 
--G---x---x-----x--------------||-----xx-||
             x        x  x     || x xx   || 
-------------------------------------------
                            xx
      et glo-ri-a in sae-cu-la.   A-men.

>	    	Doh Re  Mi  Fah Soh  La  Te
>	In C	C   D   E   F   G    A   B
>	In G	G   A   B   C   D    E   F#
>	In E	E   F#  G#  A   B    C#  D#
>
>I think that's approximately the idea, but it's many, many years since I've
>taken any notice of it, or even seen it, and even then, only in vocal
>music.  It may well be age, rather than location, which put it bwyond yuor 
>experience... ;-)
    
    Well a lot of popular music is based on a Doh-Soh-La sequence or
    pattern, if that makes you feel better ;-)  In the western hemisphere,
    we use Roman numerals to label these patterns.  For example, if we're
    playing chords, we would call this a I-IV-V chord pattern.  
    
    Getting back to hymns or old songs, Doh-Soh-La would be the easiest way
    to get by in singing/playing any of them because these are the major
    (as in most basic) changes.  If you only knew 3 chords, you could play
    most songs just by playing these changes.
    
    However, some keys are just too high/low for congregational singing
    regardless of the basic changes.
    
    Mike

RE:         <<< Note 611.16 by FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything" >>>

>    (as in most basic) changes.  If you only knew 3 chords, you could play
>    most songs just by playing these changes.
    
 

 
 Hey! There's hope for me yet as a guitar player! ;-)



Jim

    Jim, that's what all those C&W folks do: I-IV-V.  If they can do it, so
    can you!

 Thanks, Mike ;-)

� If you only knew 3 chords, you could play most songs just by playing
� these changes. 

That's why the piano accordion is so built.  The ranks of bass keys go up
in fifths, so at the simplest, the accordionist has only to cover three
sets of buttons - sub-dominant, tonic and dominant.  Of course, it has a
lot more potential that that, but it makes it very easy to just pick up,
for anyone with basic keyboard skills for the right hand. 

�    However, some keys are just too high/low for congregational singing
�    regardless of the basic changes.

It depends on what range the particular tune operates within.  If it is
contained within soh - soh', a different key would be relevant than if it
were within the doh - doh' range.  Most people's range covers more than an
octave.  There is also a variation in popular pitch offered.  I've noticed
in some of the newer music in the UK, that it is written lower than has
generally been the fashion. 

						Andrew

'rew,

You have shocked me!

Are you trying to imply that the piano accordian is a MUSICAL INSTRUMENT!!??? 

Chele

� Are you trying to imply that the piano accordian is a MUSICAL INSTRUMENT!!??? 

AH!!!!! Chele, you should just hear me play on it!  All doubt would be 
totally erased from your mind.  You would know for a certainty then - 
no-one could disuade you - that it is truly an instrumentof torture



As well as heavy...  Actually, it is an interesting challenge to produce 
genuine music from one.  I'm not sure if it is possible, and those who have 
witnessed my attempts are in no doubt on this score�, but I sometimes 
suspect that it is not far round the corner.


								&

� pun - please ignore.

    What's the difference between a lawyer and a piano accordian crossing
    the road?
    
    The skid marks before the lawyer!

    RE: /john in .8
    
>C-sharp would be 5 sharps.
    
    Uh, the key of C-sharp contains 7 sharps.  What was your point??

                                 -< confused >-

>    RE: /john in .8
    
>>C-sharp would be 5 sharps.
    
  >  Uh, the key of C-sharp contains 7 sharps.  What was your point

  >  What was your point??   


   Obviously it wasn't sharp enough ;-)



 Jim

>    
>    Uh, the key of C-sharp contains 7 sharps.  What was your point??
>
That I would have thought of it as:

		C#   D#   F   F#   G#  A#  C   C#

Rather than showing the F as E# and the C as B# (the same notes).

It's a lot easier to read on sheet music with seven sharps, I must admit.

/john

.26� That I would have thought of it as:

.26�		C#   D#   F   F#   G#  A#  C   C#

Can't be expressed in the key signature, as each note can only have one 
value.  So if 'F' and 'C' are sharpened, to get F & C natural, you need to 
sharpen 'E' and 'B'.  It also follows the logical key sequence, going up
in perfect fifths to get the +1 sharp key :

C G D A E B F# C# etc...

The flat keys follow a similar sequence in perfect fourths :

C F Bb Eb Ab Db Gb etc....

Interesting on the harp, which has pedals to sharpen or flatten all notes 
of a particular letter name.

							Andrew