Conference yukon::christian_v7

1) We believe The Bible is the Word of God inspired and without error in it's
original manuscripts.  It is our only source of authority in matters of faith,
conduct, and truth.

2) We believe there is one eternal God, personal and knowable who manifests
Himself in three distinct persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy
Spirit.  He is worthy of our worship, confidence, and obedience.

3) We believe God the Son willingly took on the body of a man, was virgin-born,
became our sinless substitute, shed His blood on the cross to completely pay
for the atonement of our sins.  We believe He died, was buried, resurrected in a
literal body, ascended into Heaven, and is presently our advocate and only High
Priest.

4) We believe the ministry of the Holy Spirit is to convict the lost, place and
seal the believer in the Body of Christ, and make real and productive the things
of Christ in the believer's life.  We do not believe that any special gift is a
necessary evidence of salvation or of being filled with the Spirit.

5) We believe every person is born with a sin nature, is spiritually dead and
cannot please God until Christ gives him life.  We believe salvation from sin,
death, and hell is by God's grace.  It must be received by faith apart from any
human performance or merit.  It is a free gift of God to one who personally
places his confidence in the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work on the
Cross.  We believe a truly born again person is eternally secure.

6) We believe that all believers should assemble in local churches for mutual
edification, encouragement, evangelism, service and worship.  Within our
fellowship, as an act of obedience to the Word of God, we share our love of
Christ through participation in the signs of the New Covenant: The Lord's Supper
and Baptism by immersion in water.

7) We believe the Lord Jesus Christ will personally return for His own before
the tribulation and before the millennium.

Calvary Chapel has been formed as a fellowship of believers in the Lordship of
Jesus Christ.  Our supreme desire is to know Christ and to be conformed into
His image by the power of the Holy Spirit.  We are not a denominational church,
nor are we opposed to denominations as such, only their overemphasis of the
doctrinal differences that have led to the division of the Body of Christ.

We believe that the only true basis of Christian fellowship is Christ's (Agape)
love, which is greater than any differences we possess and without which we
have no right to claim ourselves Christians.

We believe worship of God should be *spiritual*.  Therefore, we remain flexible
and yielded to the leading of the Holy Spirit to direct our worship.

We believe worship of God should be *inspirational*.  Therefore, we give a
great place to music in our worship.

We believe worship of God should be *intelligent*.  Therefore, our services
are designed with great emphasis upon teaching the Word of God that He might
instruct us how He should be worshiped.

We believe in all the fundamental doctrines of evangelical Christianity.

We believe in the inerrancy of Scripture, that the Bible, Old and New
Testaments are the inspired, infallible Word of God.

We believe that God is eternally existent in three separate persons: Father,
Son, and Holy Spirit.

We believe that God the Father is the personal, transcendent, and sovereign
Creator of all things.

We believe that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully human, that He was born of
a virgin, lived a sinless life, provided for the atonement of our sins by His
vicarious death on the Cross, was bodily resurrected by the power of the Holy
Spirit, ascended back to the right hand of the Father, and ever lives to make
intercession for us.

After Jesus ascended to Heaven, He poured out His Holy Spirit on the believers
in Jerusalem, enabling them to fulfill His command to preach the Gospel to the
entire world, an obligation shared by all believers today.

We believe that all people are by nature separated from God and are
responsible for their own sin, but that salvation, redemption, and forgiveness
are freely offered to all by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.  When a
person repents of sin and accepts Jesus Christ as personal Savior and Lord,
trusting Him to save, that person is immediately born again and sealed by the
Holy Spirit, all his/her sins are forgiven, and that person becomes a child of
God, destined to spend eternity with the Lord.

We believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit mentioned in the Scriptures, and
that they are valid for today if they are exercised within the scriptural
guidelines.  We as believers are to covet the best gifts, seeking to exercise
them in love that the whole Body of Christ might be edified.  We believe that
love is more important than the most spectacular gifts, and without this love
all exercise of spiritual gifts is worthless.

We believe that church government should be simplistic rather than complex
bureaucracy, and we depend on the Holy Spirit to lead, rather than on fleshly
promotion.

We await the pre-tribulation rapture of the church, and we believe that the
second coming of Christ with His saints to rule on the earth will be personal,
pre-millenial, and visible.  This motivates us to holy living, heartfelt
worship, committed service, diligent study of God's Word, regular fellowship,
and participation in adult baptism by immersion and Holy Communion.

We seek to teach the Word of God in such a way that its message can be applied
to an individual's life, leading that person to greater maturity in Christ.

We reject: 1) The belief that true Christians can be demon possessed;
2) "5-point Calvinism" (i.e., a fatalistic Calvinistic view that leaves no
room for free will; specifically, we reject the belief that Jesus' atonement
was limited, instead we believe that He died for all people, and we reject the
assertion that God's wooing grace cannot be resisted or that He has elected
some people to go to hell; instead we believe that anyone who wills to come to
Christ may do so); 3) "Positive confession" (the faith movement belief that
God can be commanded to heal or work miracles according to man's will),
4) Human prophecy that supersedes the Scripture, 5) The incorporation of
humanistic and secular psychology and philosophy into Biblical teaching, and
6) The over-emphasis of spiritual gifts, experiential signs and wonders to the
exclusion of Biblical teaching.

In our services, we focus on a personal relationship with God through worship,
prayer, and the teaching of the Word of God.  We teach both expositorily
[probably 80% of the time - MH] and topically.  We do not allow speaking in
tongues loudly during services, nor prophecy while a Bible study is in
progress because we do not believe that the Holy Spirit would interrupt
Himself.  We have specific "after-glow services" and believer's meetings when
these gifts of the Spirit may be exercised.

While Calvary Chapel Bible College holds to these beliefs, we welcome any
believer in the Lord Jesus Christ who has a sincere desire to grow closer to
Jesus.  Our desire is to share in the fellowship of Christ in a way that brings
glory to God; to avoid division; and to share in His agape love.

"Calvinism vs. Arminianism - A Discussion of Doctrine"
 by Pastor Larry Taylor - Calvary Chapel Bible College

{Pastor Larry is one of Pastor Chuck Smith's assisting pastors, and helps
oversee the Calvary Chapel conference center and Bible College under Pastor
Chuck's direction.  He has been in ministry for over 20 years, serving churches
and ministries in Maryland, Minnesota, Colorado, and California.  He holds
master's degrees in counseling and theology and a doctorate in Biblical
counseling.  Pastor Larry has planted 3 churches, served as a hospital chaplain,
and as a pastoral counselor.  He has been associated with Calvary Chapel for
approximately 20 years, and was ordained by Pastor Chuck in 1976. }

Introduction
------------
God has, in these last days, raised up Calvary Chapel as a ministry of balance.
Since its inception under the leadership of Pastor Chuck Smith, Calvary Chapel
ministries have sought the Biblical middle ground between the extremes of
Pentecostalism versus fundamentalism, emotionalism versus traditionalism, and
Calvinism vs. Arminianism.  With respect to this latter debate, no final
solution is possible.  Great theological minds have debated the issues of free
will versus the sovereignty of God for centuries without ever being able to
reconcile the two.  Arguing for one side at the expense of the other is foolish
because it is by nature not provable, and therefore an argument which no one can
win.  Humility demands that we bow in the presence of God who is beyond our
intellectual comprehension and confess the wisdom of Deuteronomy 29:29: "The
secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things which are revealed
belong to us and to our children forever...".

What is Calvinism?
------------------
Historically, the doctrine we call Calvinism arose out of the teaching of the
reformer John Calvin, although 5-point Calvinism as it is espoused by its
followers today was not taught by Calvin, but instead implied by those who
carried his teachings to what they considered to be their logical conclusions.
Calvinism is often called Reformed theology, as distinct from Lutheran or
Anabaptist theology, and is founded upon John Calvin's "Institutes of the
Christian Religion."  The Puritans and independent Presbyterians of Great
Britain were heavily influenced by Calvin's writings, but some of its great
followers were Dutch (Bavinck, Kuyper, etc.).  Calvinism is the basis for the
doctrine of many Baptist, Presbyterian, and Reformed churches.  In "The Canons
of the Synod of Dort" in 1619, a response to the teachings of James Arminius,
the 5 points of Calvinism were stated as follows [T-U-L-I-P]:

1. Total Depravity, the belief that man is dead in trespasses and sins and
totally unable to save himself.  Many adherents of Calvinism carry this a step
further, claiming that man cannot even desire a relationship with God apart from
His working in their hearts.  In fact, it is claimed that God must regenerate a
person before they can even desire to come to Christ.

2. Unconditional election is the belief that in eternity past God chose or
elected certain people to obtain salvation.  Some Calvinists (although not all)
carry this belief further and teach what is referred to as "double election," or
"reprobation," the teaching that God, in eternity past, selected some people to
go to heaven and others to hell, and there is nothing anyone can do to change
God's election; i.e., if you are elect for heaven, you'll go to heaven
regardless of what you do, and if you're elected for hell, there is no
possibility of your ever being saved.  John Calvin taught this, but called it a
terrible doctrine.

3. Limited atonement is the Calvinist teaching that Jesus did not die for sins
of the entire world, but that He instead only died for those that He elected to
go to heaven.  The argument is that Christ's work on the Cross must be
"efficacious," that is, it must work for all for whom He died, that He could not
have shed His blood for those who are lost.  Some Calvinists have gone to great
lengths to explain away limited atonement, saying, for example, that Jesus died
for all, but does not pray for all, or that His death theoretically could save
everyone, but is effective only for the elect.  The end result is the same in
each case - the belief that Jesus only died effectively for some people, not
all.

4. Irresistible grace is the doctrine that teaches that God will draw to Himself
those whom He elected regardless of their rebellion against Him.  It is the
belief that man cannot resist the drawing of God to Himself.

5. Perseverance of the saints, or eternal security, is the doctrine that often
attracts people to Calvinism because it is the belief that a true born again
Christian cannot lose or give up his salvation because salvation is entirely
God's work, not man's.

What is Arminianism?
--------------------
Jacobus (James) Arminius was a Dutch theologian who lived from 1560-1609.
Arminius taught that man is not guilty for Adam's sin, but only when he chooses
to sin voluntarily.  Arminius started out as a strict Calvinist, but later
modified his views, views which were expressed in a document called "The
Remonstrance" in 1610.  Arminianism is the theological basis for the Methodist,
Wesleyan, Nazarene, Pentecostal, Free Will Baptist, Holiness, and many
charismatic churches.  Arminianism teaches:

1. Election based on knowledge, the belief that God chose those who would be
saved in eternity past based on His foreknowledge of those who would respond to
and receive the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  Arminianism rejects the concept that
God elected anyone for hell.

2. Unlimited atonement is the belief that Jesus died on the Cross for all
people, that His blood is sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of every
man, woman, and child who has ever lived.  Thus, all mankind is savable.

3. Natural inability is the teaching that man cannot save himself, but that the
Holy Spirit must effect the new birth in him.  Strict Arminians do not believe
that man is totally depraved and condemned as a result of Adam's sin.

4. Prevenient grace is the Arminian belief that the preparatory work of the Holy
Spirit enables the believer to respond to the Gospel and to cooperate with God
in the working out of that person's salvation.

5. Conditional perseverance is the belief that man can choose to reject God, and
therefore lose his salvation, even after he has been born again.  Rather than
the "once saved always saved" doctrine of the Calvinists, the Arminian believes
that you must abide in Christ to be saved, and that you can choose to walk away
from God.  Arminius himself, and his early followers, stated that they were
unsure of this doctrine and that it required further Biblical study.  Later
Arminians, however, accepted it.

An Evaluation of the Doctrines
------------------------------
At the heart of the controversy between Calvinism and Arminianism is the
emphasis on the sovereignty of God by the Calvinists and on the free will of
man, or human responsibility, by the Arminians.  Arminian theology teaches that
man has free will and that God will never interrupt or take that free will away,
that God has obligated Himself to respect the free moral agency and capacity of
free choice with which He created us.  Calvinism, on the other hand, emphasizes
that God is in total control of everything, and that nothing can happen that He
does not plan and direct, including man's salvation.  Both doctrinal positions
are logical, both have Scriptures to back up each of their 5 points, and both
are, in my opinion, partially right and partially wrong.

As Philip Schaff put it in his "History of the Christian Church," "Calvinism
emphasizes divine sovereignty and free grace; Arminianism emphasizes human
responsibility.  The one restricts the saving grace to the elect; the other
extends it to all men on the condition of faith.  Both are right in what they
assert; both are wrong in what they deny.  If one important truth is pressed to
the exclusion of another truth of equal importance, it becomes an error, and
loses its hold upon the conscience.  The Bible gives us a theology which is more
human than Calvinism and more divine than Arminianism, and more Christian than
either of them." (New York, Charles Scribner's & Son, 1910, VIII 815 f).
Certainly, the Bible does teach that God is sovereign (Psalm 135:6; Daniel 4:35,
Ephesians 1:11), and that believers are predestined and elected by God (Romans
8) to spend eternity with Him.  Nowhere, however, does the Bible ever associate
election with damnation.  Conversely, the Scriptures teach that God elects for
salvation, but that unbelievers are in hell by their own choice.  Every passage
of the Bible that deals with elections deals with it in the context of
salvation, not damnation.  No one is elect for hell.  The only support for such
a view (which John Calvin did teach) is human logic, not Biblical revelation.

The idea of total depravity is consistent with Scripture (Ephesians 2:1, Romans
3:11), but the doctrine of limited atonement, that Jesus did not die for the
sins of the whole world, is clearly anti-Biblical (John 3:16, 1 Timothy 2:6,
2 Peter 2:1, 1 John 2:2).  The Bible teaches that Jesus died for everyone's sins
and that everyone is able to be saved if they will repent and turn to Christ.
Limited atonement is a non-Biblical doctrine (John 3:16-17; Romans 5:8,18;
2 Corinthians 5:14-15; 1 Timothy 2:4; 4:10; Hebrews 2:9; 10:29; 2 Peter 2:1;
1 John 2:2; 4:14).

Irresistible grace is taught by some, who do not understand the concept, to mean
that God drags people to Himself contrary to their wills.  Actually, the
Biblical view, and the view of most Calvinists, is the belief that God works on
our wills so as to make us willing to surrender to Him.  In other words, He
makes us willing to come to Christ for salvation.

And, many Scriptures teach that a true believer is safe and secure in Christ,
that salvation doesn't depend on our ability to keep ourselves, but on God's
ability to keep us (1 John 5:11-13; John 10:28; Romans 5:1, 8:1).  The only
condition for salvation is faith in Christ (John 3:16, Acts 16:31; Romans 10:9).
On the other hand, the Bible teaches us that we must abide in Christ (John 15;
Luke 13:14; Colossians 1:29; 2 Timothy 2:5; Hebrews 6:4-6; 1 Peter 1:10) to
persevere in salvation.

The Fruit of Arminianism
------------------------
In its strictest form, Arminianism has taught that man is responsible for saving
himself via his own good works of devotion.  Although not the view of Arminius,
or of Wesley, the teaching from some pulpits puts the emphasis on man's efforts
to the expense of God's grace.  Thus, in its extreme form, Arminianism leads to
the belief that if a believer sins, he has lost his salvation, and must be born
again over and over again.  Hence, the emphasis in some churches of coming to
the altar at each meeting to repent, rededicate, and renew the salvation which
was invariably lost in the course of daily life.  Adherents of this position
have no assurance of salvation, no rest in Christ, and no spiritual peace.

Or, on the other hand, if they can convince themselves that they've reached a
state of sinless perfection (which is clearly contrary to 1 John 1), then
believers become proud and super-spiritual, seeing themselves as having reached
a higher spiritual plane than regular Christians.  A works equals righteousness
theology leads either to terror and fear or to pride and haughtiness.

Innumerable believers have lived in needless fear because they wondered time and
time again whether or not they were truly saved, thinking that each time they
sinned, each time they discovered anything internal unlike Christ, indeed,
anytime they felt emotionally separated from God, that they were no longer His
children.  Surely it is not the will of God for His children to live in such
bondage.  The fact is that we *can* know for certain that we are His children,
we can know for certain that our sins are forgiven, that we will spend eternity
in heaven with the Lord.  The Lord does not want His children to doubt His love,
nor does He want them to believe that they must, through their own efforts and
good works, gain or maintain their salvation.  Our position with God is
determined by faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ for us on the Cross.
We can rest in His love and grace, knowing that He who began a good work in us
will complete it.  We need not fear the one who said He would never leave us or
forsake us, who promised to present those who believe in Christ faultless before
His presence, who said that He would be with us until the end of the age.

Similarly, it is not the will of God for His children to feel prideful, for them
to take credit for the salvation that is entirely His work, for them to falsely
believe that they are sinlessly perfect, or better than other believers in any
way.  Arminianism has historically lead to the holiness movements which teach
sinless perfection, and foster pride in some, while condemning and terrifying
the more timid.

The Fruit of Calvinism
----------------------
Five point Calvinists, like full strict Arminians, typically bear fruit contrary
to the teaching of God's Word.  Specifically, it is typical of 5 point
Calvinists to ignore or at times even oppose evangelism.  After all, if all of
humanity is either predestined to hell or to heaven, and there is nothing anyone
can do to switch from one group to the other regardless of their will, then why
evangelize?  The elect will be saved whether they like it or not, and the
non-elect will be doomed whether they want to or not.  Historically, some
hyper-Calvinists have even gone so far as to object to putting a Gospel verse
on a sign, lest one of the non-elect read it and believe, thus thwarting God's
plan.  Even today, Calvinists can be found fighting against evangelistic
crusades and missions.

Secondly, strict Calvinism seems to invariably lead to division, strife and
argument.  Many Calvinists seem to spend more time arguing with fellow
Christians about doctrine than loving and caring for the lost and hurting in the
world.  They are seeking, it seems, to convert the converted, and have neglected
the call of God to missions, evangelism, and practical service.  Indeed,
Calvinism seems to attract those of an argumentative nature who are often
unteachable, legalistic, and dogmatic.

Five point Calvinists tend to speak of love and grace frequently, but display
very little of either.  Rather than loving and serving the lost and hurting,
they are engaged in continual arguing, often dividing the Body of Christ in a
legalistic and hurtful manner.  To many of them, being what they consider to be
right is more important than doing what Jesus commanded, viz., evangelizing the
lost and ministering to those in need.  I have not infrequently seen rank
Calvinists who assert that because God chose some for heaven and others for
hell, we cannot know the destiny of babies who die.  If they were elect, they
are in heaven, if not, hell.  Such a belief makes God a monster who eternally
tortures innocent children, it removes the hope of consolation from the Gospel,
it limits the atoning work of Christ, it resists evangelism, it stirs up
argumentation and division, and it promotes a small, angry judgmental God rather
than the large-hearted God of the Bible.

The Biblical Balance
--------------------
Like a river that flows between 2 banks, so the truth of God's Word flows
between the extremes of Calvinism and Arminianism.  As it has been pointed out,
both are true and both are false.  Election and predestination are Biblical
doctrines.  God knows everything and therefore He cannot learn anything or be
surprised by anything.  Thus, He knows, and has known from eternity past, who
will exercise their free will to accept Him and who will reject Him.  The former
are the elect, the latter are the non-elect.  As D.L. Moody once said, the
"whosoever wills are the elect, and the whosoever wont's are the non-elect."
Every person who is not saved will have only himself to blame; God will not send
anyone to hell, but many people will choose to go there by exercising their free
will to reject Christ.

On the other hand, no one who is saved will be able to take any of the credit.
Our salvation, from start to finish, is 100% God's work, and is based entirely
on the finished work of the Cross.  We were dead in trespasses and sins,
destined for hell, when God in His grace, drew us to Himself, convinced us of
our sin and our need for a Savior, and gave us the authority to call Jesus Lord.
Is this grace, this wooing, irresistible?  No, we have free will and we can
resist, even to the damnation of our souls, but God does everything short of
making us puppets to draw us into His family.

Moreover the concept of a limited atonement, that Jesus only died for the
elect, and not for the sins of all people, is clearly unbiblical.  The Bible is
crystal clear that Jesus' death on the cross was for all people, and that there
is sufficient power in His blood to cleanse away every sin.  "Whosoever will may
come" is meaningless if man has no free will and no ability to choose God.

The question of whether or not a Christian can lose or walk away from salvation
(point 5 in both doctrinal systems) is academic.  When a person who claims to be
a Christian and shows some fruit to that effect turns his back on God and lives
the life of a pagan, the Arminian says he was saved and is now not saved, while
the Calvinist says that he was either never really saved to start with, or that
he is severely backslidden, but still within grace.  Ultimately, no one, not
even the sinning person, knows the truth - only God does.  In a backslidden or
sin-filled state, there is no assurance of salvation, no resting in Jesus, no
peace of God in the heart.  So the sinning person, whether he is actually a
Christian or just thinks he might be, needs to repent to get right with God.
The true believer in Christ never has to doubt his salvation.  He can rest in
the perfect assurance that God saved him and will keep him, and nothing will
ever separate him from God's love in time or eternity.  We are secure in Christ,
kept by the power of His loving grace, forever safe in Jesus.

It is imperative to remember that both Calvinism and Arminianism are systems of
theology devised by godly, devout, Bible-believing men in the 1600's.  Both
systems are based on the Word of God, and both contain essential elements of
truth, but neither can be substituted for reading and believing the Word of God.
The Apostolic church knew nothing of either system, they simply believed what
God had revealed.  The difficulty arises when it seems that some of what God
revealed contradicts something else He revealed.  How can man be absolutely free
and God absolutely sovereign and directive simultaneously?  How can salvation be
entirely God's work, yet require the cooperation of mere men simultaneously?
These are unanswerable questions ultimately.  The Bible teaches both the
sovereignty of God and the free will of man.  It teaches what appears to be
unconditional perseverance in some places and conditional perseverance in
others.  These things can never be intellectually reconciled because God is
simply too big for us to understand.  Both systems of theology emphasize one set
of scriptures while either ignoring or drastically twisting and explaining away
others.

We are not called to understand God, only to believe Him.  I am a free moral
agent, responsible for my own sin, hopelessly lost.  Jesus not only died for me,
He drew me to Himself with bands of lovingkindness and grace, convicted me of my
sin, gave me the power to call Him Lord, and will one day present me faultless
before His presence with great joy.  I am, by His grace, His child.  And yet, I
am still free to walk with Him or not to walk with Him.  And what applies to me,
applies to every human being.  Jesus died for all of us and desires to
fellowship with all of us.  Whosoever will may come and receive of His
forgiveness and grace and salvation.  Innocent babies who die are safe in heaven.
God's election excludes no one; Jesus' atonement includes everyone.  As has been
pointed out, we are looking at 2 sides of the same coin.  Election is God's
side, free will is our side.  Someone once said that as we enter life, we see
emblazoned over the gateway the words "Whosoever will may come"; then as we
enter and look back at the backside of the same gateway, we see inscribed the
words "Elect from the foundation of the earth."  Election is God's side of the
coin we call salvation, human responsibility is our side.

Rather than interpreting the Bible based on any theological or philosophical
structure, it behooves us to simply read and believe the Word of God.  As we
teach the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation, verse by verse, in context, we
will at times sound like staunch Calvinists, preaching those passages which
emphasize God's sovereignty, while at other times we will seem like devout
Arminians, as we preach those passages which emphasize man's responsibility.
The key to successful ministry is balance - to stay focused on the Word of God,
and not become distracted by the doctrines of men.

Throughout the history of the Calvary Chapel movement, Pastor Chuck Smith, and
those that God has raised up around him in the ministry have maintained a
Biblical balance, that makes them neither Calvinists nor Arminians, but simply
Bible believing brothers and sisters who love Jesus, desire to know Him
intimately, long to worship Him in Spirit and in truth, and who yearn to see a
lost, broken, hurting, bleeding, dying world come to know the unlimited
capacities of His love and grace.

    >but simply Bible believing brothers and sisters who love Jesus, desire to 
    >know Him intimately, long to worship Him in Spirit and in truth, and who 
    >yearn to see a lost, broken, hurting, bleeding, dying world come to know 
    >the unlimited capacities of His love and grace.
    
    Amen!  I like simplicity.
    
    Bing

    Praise God, so do I!  I feel so much better after leaving an
    Arminianist-type church ;-)
    
    Mike

    RE:  .3 through .6
    
    Mike, excellent posts!  Very informative, direct and simple.
    
    God Bless,
    Janet

Daniel 12:4
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of
the end: many shall run to an fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

    God tells us here that knowledge will be increased in the last days. 
    For years I only really looked at this in a prophetic sense - man's
    technological advances facilitating eschatological events.
    
    I was thinking about this yesterday and felt God telling me this is
    also why God has raised up churches that stress expository teaching
    (like Calvary Chapel) in these final days.  There aren't enough great
    Bible teachers in this world.  What few we have, God is doing a mighty
    work through in revealing His Word to believers as never before!
    
    I praise God for these Bible teachers that He has raised up.  The Bible
    has become a totally new book to me over the last year.
    
    Mike

    The next 4 replies is also an article on Calvinism and Arminianism as
    well as some more insight into my church's doctrine.  This time it is
    from Pastor Chuck Smith himself.  Those of you not familiar with
    him may find it interesting.  I can only hope to be as loving as he is 
    in his presentation.
    
    Mike

{"Calvinism, Arminianism, and the Word of God" by Pastor Chuck Smith}

[Pastor Chuck is the senior pastor and overseer of Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa,
California, a church which ministers to an excess of 70,000 people per week.  He
is also the Bible teacher heard nationwide on "The Word for Today" radio
program.  A servant of the Lord Jesus Christ in the ministry of his calling,
Pastor Chuck's ministry touches millions worldwide through the church and its
related ministries, including a training center in Europe, The Word for Today,
Asaph Music, KWVE, the Calvary Chapel Conference Center, Calvary Chapel Youth
Camp, Maranatha Christian Academy, Calvary Chapel High School, and Calvary
Chapel Bible College.]

What does it mean to be a part of the growing number of Calvary Chapel
Fellowships?  There are certain distinctions that cause us to stand out among
other evangelical churches.  We could point to our shared commitment to cultural
and ethnic barriers.  Calvary Chapels have also been known for focus on worship,
featuring contemporary music loyal to the Word of God and the desire of His
people to praise their Lord.  Without exception, Calvary Chapels have taken a
strong stand for a pre-tribulational and pre-millenial view of the second coming
of Jesus Christ.  We have also expressed a steadfast love and support for the
nation of Israel, its right to a historic homeland and its need for the Messiah.
But most importantly, Calvary Chapel has been known for striking a balance
between extremes on controversial theological issues that have often caused
division rather than unity in the body of Christ.

Calvary Chapels have no desire to be divisive nor dogmatic in areas where Bible
believers and teachers have disagreed.  However, it is important to state as
clearly as possible the doctrinal basis of our fellowship and unity with one
another, especially in the area of pastoral leadership and teaching.  While we
welcome believers who disagree with us to our fellowship, we do encourage a
measure of doctrinal understanding and unity among our pastors who teach us the
truths of God's Word.

Calvary Chapels try to avoid conclusions, terminology, and arguments which are
not clearly presented in the Bible.  In no area of controversy is this approach
more essential than in the long simmering debate between Calvinists and
Arminians.  In the midst of this heated argument it is easy to ignore or neglect
the plain statements of the Bible, or to believe that we have the ability to
fully understand the ways of God (Romans 11:33-36).  But how tragic it is when
we become more concerned with being "right" than being loving.  When we discuss
the ministry of the Holy Spirit, it is easy to disagree over terms such as
"baptism" and "filling" and to miss the blessing and power of God's Spirit in
our lives.  The way we conduct our debates and express our opinions will
sometimes "quench" as well as "grieve" the blessed Spirit who dwells within the
believer.  In the midst of our arguments over spiritual gifts, we can miss the
Biblical admonition to love, which clearly is greater than all the gifts
(1 Corinthians 12:31-14:1).  Our desire is to bring believers together in the
love and unity of the Holy Spirit.  Our focus is on our awesome God, not on
ourselves.  We are committed to glorifying our Lord in all we say and do.

Perhaps no issue is as important or as potentially divisive as the doctrine of
salvation, reflected in the debate between followers of John Calvin (1509-1564)
and those of Jacob Hermann (1560-1609), best known by the Latin form of his last
name, Arminius.  Since the Protestant Reformation in the 16th Century, Christian
churches and leaders have disagreed over such issues as depravity, God's
sovereignty, human responsibility, election, predestination, eternal security,
and the nature and extent of the atonement of Jesus Christ.

Although trained in the reformed tradition, Arminius had serious doubts about
the doctrine of "sovereign grace" as taught by the followers of John Calvin.  He
was a pastor of the Reformed congregation in Amsterdam (1588), but during his 15
years of ministry there, he began to question many of the conclusions of
Calvinism.  He left the pastorate and became professor of theology at the
University of Leyden.  It was his series of lectures on election and
predestination that led to a violent and tragic controversy.  After his death in
1609, his followers developed the Remonstrance of 1610 which outlined the "Five
Points of Arminianism."  This document was a protest against the doctrines of
the Calvinists, and was submitted to the State of Holland.  In 1618, a National
Synod of the Church was convened in Dort to examine the teachings of Arminius in
the light of Scripture.  After 154 sessions, lasting 7 months, the Five Points
of Arminianism were declared to be heretical.  After the synod, many of the
disciples of Arminius, such as Hugo Grotius, were imprisoned or banished.  When
John Wesley took up some of the teachings of Arminianism, the movement began to
grow, and it affected the Methodist tradition as well as the beliefs of most
Pentecostal and Charismatic churches.  The "Five Points of Arminianism" included
the following:

Free Will
---------
Arminius believed that the fall of man was not total, maintaining that there was
enough good left in man for him to will to accept Jesus Christ unto salvation.

Conditional Election
--------------------
Arminius believed that election was based on the foreknowledge of God as to who
would believe.  Man's "act of faith" was seen as the "condition" for his being
elected to eternal life, since God foresaw him exercising his "free will" in
response to Jesus Christ.

Universal Atonement
-------------------
Arminius held that redemption was based on the fact that God loves everybody,
that Christ died for everyone, and that the Father is not willing that any
should perish.  The death of Jesus Christ provided the grounds for God to save
all men, but each must exercise his own "free will" in order to be saved.

Obstructable Grace
------------------
Arminius believed that since God wanted all men to be saved, He sent the Holy
Spirit to "woo" all men to Christ, but since man has absolute "free will," he is
able to resist God's will for his life.  He believed that God's will to save all
men can be frustrated by the finite will of man.  He also taught that man
exercises his own will first, and then is born again.

Falling from Grace
------------------
If man cannot be saved by God unless it is man's will to be saved, then man
cannot continue in salvation unless he continues to will to be saved.

Interestingly, John Calvin, the French reformer, did not formulate what today we
know as the Five Points of Calvinism.  This came out of the Canons of the
Council of Dort (1618), and subsequent statements among the many Reformed
Confessions have expanded upon these matters.  Calvinism has been known for
outstanding scholars, theologians, preachers, and reformers, men such as John
Owen, George Whitefield, William Wilberforce, Abraham Kuyper, Charles Hodge,
B.B. Warfield, J. Gresham Machen, and Charles Haddon Spurgeon.

Those in the reformed tradition who answered the teachings of Arminius chose the
world "TULIP" as an acrostic to summarize their answer to the "Five Points of
Arminianism":

"T" = Total Depravity
---------------------
The Calvinists believed that man is in absolute bondage to sin and Satan, unable
to exercise his own will to trust in Jesus Christ without the help of God.

"U" = Unconditional Election
----------------------------
The Calvinists believed that foreknowledge is based upon the plan and purpose of
God, and that election is not based upon the decision of man, but the "free
will" of the Creator alone.

"L" = Limited Atonement
-----------------------
The Calvinists believed that Jesus Christ died to save those who were given to
Him by the Father in eternity past.  In their view, all for whom Jesus died (the
elect) will be saved, and all for whom He did not die (the non-elect) will be
lost.

"I" = Irresistible Grace
------------------------
The Calvinists believed that the Lord possesses irresistible grace that cannot
be obstructed.  They taught that the free will of man is so far removed from
salvation, that the elect are regenerated (made spiritually alive) by God even
before expressing faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.  If a totally depraved
person wasn't made alive by the Holy Spirit, such a calling on God would be
impossible.

"P" = Perseverance of the Saints
--------------------------------
The Calvinists believed that salvation is entirely the work of the Lord, and
that man has absolutely nothing to do with the process.  The saints will
persevere because God will see to it that He will finish the work He has begun.

It is not our purpose to take sides on these issues or to divide the body of
Jesus Christ over human interpretations of these Biblical truths concerning our
salvation.  We simply desire to state how we in the Calvary Chapel fellowships
understand the Bible's teaching regarding these matters.

Depravity
---------
We believe that all are sinners (Romans 3:23) and unable by human performance to
earn, deserve, or merit salvation (Titus 3:5).  We believe that the wages of sin
is death (Romans 6:23), and that apart from God's grace, no one can be saved
(Ephesians 2:8-9).  We believe that none are righteous, or capable of doing good
(Romans 3:10-12), and that apart from the conviction and regeneration of the
Holy Spirit, none can be saved (John 1:12-13; 16:8-11; 1 Peter 1:23-25).
Mankind is clearly fallen and lost in sin.

Election
--------
We believe that God chose the believer before the foundation of the world
(Ephesians 1:4-6), and based on His foreknowledge, has predestined the believer
to be conformed to the image of His Son (Romans 8:29-30).  We believe that God
offers salvation to all who will call on His name.  Romans 10:13 says, "For
whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."  We also believe
that God calls to Himself those who will believe in His Son, Jesus Christ (1
Corinthians 1:9).  However, the Bible also teaches that an invitation (or call)
is given to all, but that only a few will accept it.  We see this balance
throughout Scripture.  Revelation 22:17 states, "And whosoever will, let him
take the water of life freely."  1 Peter 1:2 tells us we are, "elect according
to the foreknowledge of God, the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit,
unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ."  Matthew 22:14
says, "For many are called, but few are chosen (elected)."  God clearly does
choose, but man must also accept God's invitation to salvation.

Atonement
---------
We believe that Jesus Christ died as a propitiation (a satisfaction of the
righteous wrath of God against sin) "for the whole world" (1 John 2:2; 4:9-10),
and that He redeems and forgives all who will believe in the death and
resurrection of Jesus Christ as their only hope of salvation from sin, death,
and hell (Ephesians 1:7, 1 Peter 1:18-19).  We believe that eternal life is a
gift of God (Romans 6:23), and that "whosoever believeth" in Jesus Christ will
not perish, but will have eternal life (John 3:16-18).  1 Timothy 4:10 says, "we
trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those that
believe."  Hebrews 2:9 states that Jesus, "was made a little lower than the
angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the
grace of God, should taste death for every man."  The atoning sacrifice of Jesus
Christ was clearly sufficient to save the entire human race.

Grace
-----
We believe that God's grace is not the result of human effort or worthiness
(Romans 3:24-28; 11:6), but is the response of God's mercy and love to those who
will believe in His Son (Ephesians 2:4-10).  Grace gives to us what we do not
deserve nor can earn by our performance (Romans 11:6).  We believe that God's
grace and mercy can be resisted by us.  Jesus said in Matthew 23:37, "O
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them who are
sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a
hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not."  We are not
condemned because we have no opportunity to be saved, but a person is condemned
because he makes a choice not to believe (John 3:18).  In John 5:40 we read "And
ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life."  Jesus also said in John 6:37,
"All that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me; and him that cometh to Me I
will in no wise cast out."  John 6:40 states, "And this is the will of Him that
sent Me, that everyone who seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have
everlasting life."  In John 7:37 Jesus said, "If any man thirst, let him come
unto Me, and drink."  In John 11:26 He adds "whosoever liveth and believeth in
Me shall never die."

Jesus clearly acknowledges the fact of human resistance and rejection.  In John
12:46-48 He said, "I am come as a light into the world, that whosoever believeth
on Me should not abide in darkness.  And if any man hear My words, and believe
not, I judge him not; for I came, not to judge the world but to save the world.
He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath One that judgeth him: the
word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

In Stephen's message in Acts 7:51, he concluded by saying, "Ye stiff-necked and
uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost; as your
fathers did, so do ye."  In Romans 10:21, the apostle Paul quotes Isaiah 65:2
when he speaks of God's words to Israel, "All day long I have stretched forth My
hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."  In one of the five warning
passages of the book of Hebrews, we read in Hebrews 10:26, "For if we sin
willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no
more sacrifice for sins."  Verse 29 adds, "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose
ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and
hath counted the blood of the covenant, with which he was sanctified, an unholy
thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"  Clearly, God's grace
can either be resisted or received by the exercise of human free will.

Perseverance
------------
We believe that nothing can separate us from the love of God in Jesus Christ our
Lord (Romans 8:38-39), and that there is no condemnation to those who are in
Jesus Christ (Romans 8:1).  We believe that the promise of Jesus in John
10:27-28 is clear: "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall
any man pluck them out of My hand."  Jesus said in John 6:37, "him that cometh
to Me I will in no wise cast out."  We have this assurance in Philippians 1:6
"Being confident of this very thing, that He who hath begun a good work in you
will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."  We believe that the Holy Spirit
has sealed us unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30).

But we also are deeply concerned over the words of Jesus in Matthew 7:21-23:
"Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of
heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father, who is in heaven.  Many will
say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name?  And in
Thy name have cast out devils?  And in Thy name done many wonderful works?  And
then will I profess unto them, I never knew you; depart from Me, yet that work
iniquity."  Apparently there are many who claim to be believers that in fact are
not.

Jesus said in Luke 9:62, "No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking
back, is fit for the kingdom of God."  1 Corinthians 6:9-10 insists that "the
unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God" and warns us not to be
deceived.  A list is then given of various kinds of sinful lifestyles with an
ending remark that they will not inherit the kingdom of God.  Similar statements
and conclusions are given in Galatians 5:19-21 and Ephesians 5:3-5.

Galatians 5:4 says "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are
justified by the law, ye are fallen from grace."  Colossians 1:22-23 says about
Jesus Christ "In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and
unblamable and unreprovable in His sight, if ye continue in the faith grounded
and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have
heard, and which was preached to every creature that is under heaven, of which
I, Paul, am made a minister."  2 Timothy 2:12 says "if we deny Him, He also will
deny us."  Hebrew 3:12 says, "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you
an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."  Can true
believers ("brethren") depart from the living God?  1 Timothy 4:1 says that "in
the latter times, some shall depart from the faith."  2 Thessalonians 2:3 speaks
of "a falling away" or an apostasy.  2 Peter 2:20-21 makes these remarkable
statements: "For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through
knowledge of the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in it,
and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.  For it had
been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than, after they
have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."

It is no wonder that Peter says in 1 Peter 1:10, "Wherefore the rather, brethren,
give diligence to make your calling and election sure; for if ye do these
things, ye shall never fall."  We thank God for the encouragement of Jude 24 -
"Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you
faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy."

Maintaining a Bible centered balance in these difficult issues is of great
importance.  We do believe in the perseverance of the saints (true believers),
but are deeply concerned about sinful lifestyles and rebellious hearts among
those who call themselves "Christians."  We don't have all the answers to these
matters, but we desire to be faithful to the Lord and His word.  If we find
ourselves basing our view of salvation on the performance and attitudes of
people we become discouraged and concerned.  But when we keep our eyes on the
Lord, and trust in Him alone and in His power, we say with Peter in 1 Peter
1:3-9:

  "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to
   his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the
   resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible,
   and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
   Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be
   revealed in the last time.  Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a
   season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
   That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that
   perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and
   honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:  Whom having not seen,
   ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with
   joy unspeakable and full of glory:  Receiving the end of your faith, even
   the salvation of your souls."

It is not easy to maintain the unity of the Spirit among us on these matters.
It seems that the sovereignty of God and human responsibility are like two
parallel lines that do not seem to intersect within our finite minds.  God's
ways are "past finding out" (Romans 11:33), and the Bible warns us to "lean not
unto thy own understanding" (Proverbs 3:5).  To say what God says in the Bible -
no more and no less - is not always easy, comfortable, or completely
understandable.  But Scripture tells us that the wisdom from above will be
loving and kind toward all, seeking the unity of the believers, not trying to
find ways to divide and separate from one another.  May God help us all to love
each other, to be kind, tenderhearted, forgiving one another as Jesus Christ has
forgiven us (Ephesians 4:32)!  In difficult doctrinal matters, may we have
gracious attitudes and humble hearts, desiring most of all to please Him who has
called us to serve Him in the body of Christ.  Discussion - YES!  Disagreements
- YES!  Division - NO!

Jesus said, "By their fruit ye shall know them."  When a particular position on
the Scriptures causes one to become argumentative, legalistic, and divisive, I
question the validity of that position.  I seek to embrace those things that
tend to make me more loving and kind, more forgiving and merciful.  I know then
that I am becoming more like my Lord.  If you have come to a strong personal
conviction on one side of a doctrinal issue, please grant us the privilege of
first seeing how it has helped you to become more Christ-like in your nature,
and then we will judge whether we need to come to that same persuasion.  Let us
always be certain to look at the fruit of the teaching.

Seek those things that produce the loving nature of Jesus in our lives.  I would
rather have the wrong facts and a right attitude, than right facts and a wrong
attitude.  God can change my understanding of the facts in a moment, but it
often takes a lifetime to effect changes of attitude.

Yours in love,
Chuck Smith 

    Boy, it makes me want to go out and join one of the local Calvary
    Chapel bodies! (but I know God has called me to be where I am right
    now).
    
    I thought the following particularly reflected the attitude that I would 
    like to see in our conference:
    
    >But how tragic it is when we become more concerned with being "right" than
    >being loving.
    
    >But Scripture tells us that the wisdom from above will be
    >loving and kind toward all, seeking the unity of the believers, not
    >trying to find ways to divide and separate from one another.  May God help
    >us all to love each other, to be kind, tenderhearted, forgiving one 
    >another as Jesus Christ has forgiven us (Ephesians 4:32)!  In difficult 
    >doctrinal matters, may we have gracious attitudes and humble hearts, 
    >desiring most of all to please Him who has called us to serve Him in the 
    >body of Christ.  Discussion - YES! Disagreements - YES!  Division - NO!
    
    >I seek to embrace those things that tend to make me more loving and kind, 
    >more forgiving and merciful.  I know then that I am becoming more like my 
    >Lord.
    
    >If you have come to a strong personal conviction on one side of a 
    >doctrinal issue, please grant us the privilege of first seeing how it has 
    >helped you to become more Christ-like in your nature, and then we will 
    >judge whether we need to come to that same persuasion.
    
    >Seek those things that produce the loving nature of Jesus in our lives. 
    >I would rather have the wrong facts and a right attitude, than right facts
    >and a wrong attitude.  God can change my understanding of the facts in a 
    >moment, but it often takes a lifetime to effect changes of attitude.
    
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing

    Yeah I know what you mean, Bing.  I had the pleasure of meeting Pastor
    Chuck once.  The man is like everyone's grandfather.  Some of the
    youngsters even call him Papa Chuck ;-)  When you read stuff like that
    knowing what a big teddy bear he is, it really ministers to you.  It's
    not just lip service, the man lives as he writes.
    
    He and Billy Graham are a couple of the men of God that I really
    respect and admire.
    
    Mike

    Didn't Maranatha music start out of Calvary Chapel also?
    
    Bing

    Yes, I believe it did.  If you read the book "Harvest" you will get a
    pretty good historical account of Calvary Chapel.  It pretty much
    coincided with the Jesus People movement back in the late '60s and
    early '70s.  All those bands are what influenced the contemporary
    worship (but Biblical) style in the church.  The Jesus People hippies
    caused some interesting reactions when they first started attending the
    churches.  Pastor Chuck used to hold huge baptismal services on the
    beaches back then.  They even had photos of one in LIFE magazine back
    in the early '70s.
    
    Pastor Chuck tells a story of when the church first really started
    growing.  A great number of "hippies" started attending, barefoot,
    longhair, beads, bell bottoms, the whole works.  (Actually his wife Kay
    started this.  She was always down at the beaches evangelizing and
    praying for the young people)  Many of the older members of the flock were 
    startled and upset by this.  Seeing the hippies barefoot in church, 
    putting their feet up on the pews, etc., really bothered them.  They 
    considered it disrespectful to God and His house.  They started a fierce 
    complaint compaign on the damage and dirt being done to the carpet because 
    of the barefoot hippies.  Pastor Chuck came into a board meeting one day 
    with a toolbox full of hammers, screwdrivers, pliers, etc.  He said, "If 
    this carpet is such a problem and stumbling block to you, we're going to 
    rip it out of here.  The souls of these young people are more important 
    than the carpet!"  They got the message after that.
    
    We recently had a similar situation like this in my church.  The older
    generations were complaining about teenagers wearing hats into the
    sanctuary.  Pastor Mark related the story above to the entire
    congregation one Sunday night.  He said, "When I look down [the youth
    all sit in a section right in front of the pulpit] and see these kids
    here every week, morning and night, turning their Bible pages and 
    studying along with us, I don't see their hats.  I'm rejoicing with
    them and thank God they are here!"  Likewise, the older generations got 
    the point here too.
    
    Mike

    
    I believe it is Smith's son who started and manages Maranatha! music.
    
    Interestingly, the Calvary Chapel, Washington D.C. (actually in
    Alexandria, VA) recently added "Reformed" to their title.  The
    congregation wanted to grow deeper in their understanding of God and
    church so started inquiring about tools for this purpose.  Someone
    mentioned the Westminster Confession and the leaders acquired it and
    began studying it and teaching it.  Within two months they resigned as
    leaders but the congregation asked them not to that they too now
    believed in the Reformed faith.  The men/church found their way to the
    Orthodox Presbyterian Church and are now a part of our denomination,
    keeping their name but adding Reformed on the end.  Recently 52 of 75
    families gathered for the covenant baptism of their children.  This is
    quite an encouragement to our small denomination!
    
    jeff

    Jeff, what is the "Westminster Confession"?

    Hello Mike & Jeff,
    
    Mike, I have the "Westminster Confession" on line as of this morning 
    because I was curious about it too.  It is probably way too long to 
    post here (1800+ lines) so I will mail it to you.

    The "Westminster Confession" is available to anyone via anonymous FTP
    at wiretap.spies.com in Library/Religion/Presby.  If you need help
    getting it, just let me know.
    
    Janet
    :-)

    Thanks Janet!  yes that is real long...
    
    Mike

    I'm still plowing my way through the document.  So far I have seen much
    that really stands out as being drastically different.  One thing I
    have found is in section 5. under "Of Justification."  This statement
    refers to OSAS and the extreme of Calvinism.  I still don't understand
    why this would cause an entire church to change denominations.
    
    Mike

    I think it's becoming clearer to me now.  This is pretty much extreme
    Calvinism as far as the views on salvation go.  This doesn't reflect the 
    Biblical balance.  They also mention that baptism by immersion isn't 
    necessary.  Only pouring or sprinkling is proper.
    
    Mike

    
    Janet,
    
    What would the actual ftp command be from within ftp to output on a VMS
    system?
    
    thanks!
    jb

    
    Mike,
    
    You may call it "extreme" Calvinism but it is actually only true
    Calvinism.  Some of the things you listed in your list of more extreme
    Calvinism are not Calvinism.  For example, my denomination (the Orthodox
    Presbyterian Church) is absolutely committed to evangelism yet we are
    in complete agreement with the Westminster Confession which wholly
    represents Calvinism.  Also, the Presbyterian Church of America (PCA)
    largely holds to the Westminster Confession and is committed to
    evangelism.  In fact, Dr. D. James Kennedy was the one who came up with
    "Evangelism Explosion".
    
    Calvin was one of the most prevalent of all Reformers along
    with Luther and others.  He was a person who left an incredible legacy
    of writing and was absolutely committed to the Scriptures. His
    influence on the church is huge.
    
    I haven't been able to get the electronic copy yet so I don't know if
    it is included but along with the Westminster Confession are great volumes 
    of notes and Scriptural proofs for each summarization statement.  If
    they're not included in the electronic copy you can probably get the
    book at any Christian bookstore (maybe any decent secular bookstore
    too).
    
    jeff

    Jeff, thanks for the clarification.  I guess what I find most extreme 
    about it is the OSAS doctrine.  I've already posted a couple articles
    that cover this by men much more knowledgeable than myself.  I respect
    their presentation of all the Biblical verses that show a balance of
    the perseverance of the saints.

    Mike

    >What would the actual ftp command be from within ftp to output on a 
    >VMS system?
    
    Hi Jeff,
    
    I always just get into the FTP site and into the directory so I can see
    what I'm trying to get.  Get into wiretap.spies.com then cd to the file
    like this:
    
    FTP> cd Library/Religion/Presby
    FTP> dir (will show you the directory)
    FTP> get wcfaith.txt (puts it into your VMS account)
    
    Is this the info you need?  If you need more, let me know.  I'm not
    quite sure how much FTP'ing you do, or how well-behaved your system is.
    
    In Christ,
    Janet
     

    
    My system is not well-behaved.  Can you just mail it to me (anyone?) at
    DISNEY::BENSON?
    
    thanks!
    
    jeff

    It's on the way!  If anyone else wants it, feel free to contact me at
    TOLKIN::JBROWN and I will be glad to send it.
    
    God Bless,
    Janet

    Thank you Janet!
    
    jeff

    I have the October 1993 directory of CC's with me today.  Some people
    have asked offline about some in their area so I'll post some locations
    that are common to people in here.  If you're curious about an area not
    listed, let me know.  Disclaimer: I can't vouch for all of these having
    teachers being as good as they are around here ;-)
    
    City               Church             Pastor                Phone
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Norwell,MA         CC Boston          Randy Cahill        (617) 871-6617
    Center Conway,NH   Horizon Christian  Sanford Kravette    (603) 447-8331
                          Fellowship 
    Bangor,ME          CC Bangor          Ken Graves          (207) 947-1478
    Gorham,ME          CC Portland        Byron Burke         (207) 854-4062
    Lewiston,ME        Good News Chapel   Don Levesque        (207) 782-9543
    Townshend,VT       CC W. River Valley Joseph Coleman, Jr  (802) 874-7015
    Thomaston,CT       CC Northfield      Frederick Cooper    (203) 723-4188
    Warwick,RI         CC Warwick         Rich Chapman        (401) 732-6191
    Dayton,OH          CC Dayton          David Elkins        (513) 252-6927
    Colorado Springs   Calvary Chapel     Justin Alfred       (719) 522-0333
    Colorado Springs   CC Eastside        Jim Etherridge      (719) 577-4693
    Colorado Springs   Rocky Mtn CC       Brian Michaels      (719) 597-1133

    I just received the November '94 directory and there's a couple new
    additions for Massachusetts:
    
    City               Church             Pastor                Phone
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Norwell,MA         CC Boston          Randy Cahill        (617) 871-6617
    Springfield        CC W. Mass.        Jim Misiuk          (413) 739-3230
    Wayland            CC Middlesex       Chris Essel         (508) 620-6865

>    Norwell,MA         CC Boston          Randy Cahill        (617) 871-6617

I think I know this guy and may have gone to college with him!
Either that or my Dad has had him in his church, or both.

MM

Hi,

I have just started attending a Calvary Christian Fellowship
in New Stevenson, Scotland.

I have realy enjoyed the fellowship, praise and teaching
over the last few weeks and after over a year of searching
believe I have found where God wants me to be.

I believe it is linked with the Calvary Chapel in USA,
therfore the previous notes have been useful for me.

When speaking to one of the Fellowship they said that some
of the sermons of Pastor Chuck Smith was available on Internet
Web, but could not give me an address.

Does anyone have the address ?

Thanks

Stuart

Hello Stuart, and welcome!  Good to see some one else here in the same 
timezone!  I just looked up New Stevenston - a couple of miles north west 
of Motherwell?  And on the same page of the map as Erich ;-)

Sorry I don't have information on the church link - I guess Mike H can help 
out there!

						God bless
							Andrew

    I don't know of any internet server either but would like to know if
    there is.

    I've called into the Costa Mesa Calvary Chapel office, and inquired of
    any Internet services available, and they gave me a number which when
    called, tells of "CalvaryNet", which seems to be a BBS. The recording
    tells of Cavary Chapel Computer Ministries, and there is available a
    selection for "out of state" numbers available BY state.
    
    The number to call for this information is (619)630-0340.
    
    Bob

    Well I'm already on CalvaryNet via the Phoenix server.  I thought
    Internet would be more interesting than a private network/BBS.
    
    Mike

    Now available! Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa on the Internet!
    
    http://www.earthlink.net/~calvarychurch/index.html
    
    Bob

    http://www.khouse.org/calvarychapel/what.html

    See the CC WWW pointers in here and in the WWW topic for a list of CC's 
    worldwide.  I'm sure the # in Massachusetts has been updated since '94.
    
    These 2 pointers will probably have it:
    
    http://home.earthlink.net/~calvarychurch/
    http://www.khouse.org/calvarychapel/
    
    Mike

    There's a new video out that you may want to rent from your local
    Christian bookstore called "Venture of Faith."  It is the history and
    philosophy of ministry of Calvary Chapel.  This 2-hour video includes
    footage of the Jesus People revival, the massive water baptisms in the
    Pacific Ocean off southern California, the prophecy from God that spoke
    of the birth of this international ministry, and the whole philosophy 
    behind the ministry.
    
    It also chronicles the birth of contemporary Christian music that came
    out of this revival and was also another ministry Calvary Chapel was
    responsible for.
    
    There are several interviews with Pastors Chuck Smith, Greg Laurie, Raul 
    Ries, David Hocking, Mike Macintosh, Don McClure, etc.  Also several guest
    interviews with people such as Chuck Missler, Hank Hannegraff, and Dr. John 
    MacArthur.
    
    I've watched most of it already and the scenes from the Jesus People
    revival give you goose bumps.  I wish the Lord would spark such a
    revival again!
    
    Mike

    Some interesting trivia on some of the world's greatest revivals:
    
    - the great Wesley revival of the 1700s spawned 450 churches in 40 years.
    
    - the Calvary Chapel movement has spawned 700 churches in 30 years.
    
    As Christ said, He will build His church.
    
    Mike