Conference yukon::christian_v7

I haven't gone through that, no.  I can only imagine the hurt and rejection.
But given our fallen natures, there are few of us indeed that can make it
through life without having to forgive our spouses for hurts inflicted, often
deep hurts.  

I can recommend a book that has helped me tremendously.  "Love Life - For
Every Married Couple." by Dr. Ed Wheat.  It is a wonderfully Biblically based
book on how to maintain - or rekindle - the Love in Marriage that we were
designed to have by our Creator.  Among other things, it deals specifically
with forgiveness after an affair, and how to go about rebuilding a
relationship after such devastation.  It is specific and it is practical. 
Note though that it will only really make sense to someone who is really
desiring to conform their lives to the image of Christ as portrayed in His
Word.

One thing from the book that I would pass on immediately - don't press for
details about the affair.  It is enough to know that it happened.  The more
specific details that he knows about the affair, the more it will prey on his
mind and the harder it will be to forgive.

>Why is it when this happens 
>    to people I know they come to me...

Take it as an affirmation, Richard, that the Love of Christ shines through
you and attracts those who have needs they know only Christ can fill.

Paul

>>Why is it when this happens  to people I know they come to me...
    
	The tenderness you express in your concern is reason enough.

        I believe that pastoral counsel should be the first order of
        approach. It's unlikely that they'll be able to deal with this
	alone. That she came to him asking forgiveness, while he did not
	even know of the situation, shows great courage and deep conviction
	on her part. I believe that with the proper guidance, the healing
	can begin. 

	Praying for you and your friends,
		Tony
		

    Often my wife will come to me with a hurt, to which I will give a quick
    solution to.  She has told has said that she's not looking for me to
    provide her with a solution.  She needs me to listen to her, be with
    her, hurt with her, and love her.
    
    I have a feeling, Richard, that you are already being what your friend
    needs during this time--a friend.  I know in my life, when I've had a
    deep hurt, I need to see Jesus with some skin on Him.  You are a unique
    expression of Jesus to your friend.
    
    Only the Lord can heal his hurts and the marriage.  Scriptural based
    counseling is a wise recommendation.  But I believe that your friend
    probably just needs you to comfort him, to be with him, to love him, to
    hurt with him during this time.
    
    In His Love,
    
    Bing

    This will seem rather short and pointed, but it boils down to how he
    sees his spiritual role in marriage.  What model is he using to govern
    his love for his wife?
    
    The Bible says that husbands are to love their wives as Christ loves
    the church... think deeply about that thought for a few moments and
    then ask how you can reveal this kind of love in your marriage, and
    then you may be able to properly counsel him.
    
    My Pastor taught a series on Adultery not too long ago... I started to
    enter the notes from the teaching, but have been unable to secure just
    where are those things.  However, I can order a copy of the tapes and
    send them to you.
    
    They are excellent... and *can* be used to help restore the marriage! 
    As a matter of fact that was the purpose of the teaching both in
    prevention and restoration.
    
    Love in Him,
    Nancy

[My prarphrase of what I heard last night:]

We have no trouble understanding a person who goes through months of
rehabilitation and therapy when bones have been broken in an accident 
of some sort.  Yet, our spirits can be just as broken as if they were
hit head on by a truck, but many of us have trouble with good Christian
counsel.  We think that we should overcome things by sheer will and faith,
and we blur the distinction between the two.  The reality of life is
that we are not only flesh and bone, but spirit, too, and our emotions
may require rehabilitation and therapy just as much as any physical
therapy might be needed for recovery of physical trauma.

A Christian marriage counsellor can help to heal a marriage that 
doesn't go back to the way things were before the "eggs were scrambled."
Forgive and forget may be instantaneous with some, as the cripple who
takes up his bed and walks home.  But God, in His omniscience sets 
many of us on a process of healing and the process and journey THROUGH
healing are every bit as important as the destination.

The accident victim knows that it will take time to heal and set his
sights on healing.  So the first step is to forgive, or maybe even 
intend to forgive with the eye towards making that come about and not let
it wither.  Sometimes we doubt our own abilities but we can declare our
intents and work toward them.  I am confident that the Lord honors the
intent, understanding the hurt, and can help a person follow through if
the intent is true.

Seek counselling because this goes beyond forgiving an act of unfaithfulness
but drives to the heart of the bond between husband and wife.  It is
more than a matter of getting this behind them, but to seek the union
God intended from the beginning - a one-flesh union.

Mark

    .5
    
    Amen to that!  

    > thought it was primarily the men who
    >    were over taken with lust and the women is more for details and  a
    >    relationship..?   
    
    Have you read the note in regards to Sexual Responsibilites? :-)
    
    Once upon a time I could say that I was physically stimulated and not
    visually stimulated... but I can honestly say that when I see ads like
    for the B.U.M. line of clothing [naked man from behind], I have to turn
    away from it.  
    
    Mens and womens roles are crossing over in this day and age due to the
    everpresent sexual images that are so prevalent no matter where you go.
    
    

Richard,

I have been trough a forgiveness process in a similar(but different)situation.
Even I had a forgiving heart when it was first happened but it still took about
2 years to recover. I went through a depressed period in the process. My opinion
about "Christian Counselling" is it should be equivalent to "How to grow the
spiritual life".  It is less of "bring a solution to a problem" but rather it is
"seeing Jesus trough the problem".  I think it is particularly hard for the
husband that the life they used to live seemed to be so wonderful and so blessed
yet this unthinkable thing still happened.  Both the husband and wife need to
see that only with the capacity of the love in and through Jesus, the sin can be
cleansed and the true forgiveness can happen.  It is not something that the wife
or the husband can do that could wipe the hurt out.  They need truly and
continuously bring this hurt to God and ask for sanctification until they can
get the heavenly peace together. I think Richard you have done exactly the right
thing that is to pray and cry with him and need continue to do so.

Wally

I don't have time to fully respond to .10, but suffice to say I couldn't
disagree more.  You say you won't argue about your opions, and that's your
perogative, as it is also mine to state my disagreement.  I'd be glad to
discuss why I disagree.

Simply put, a husband is called to love his wife as Christ loved the church,
or more completely, as God loves us.  If God just ditched us and ended the
relationship when we broke the contract, we wouldn't have heard a word from
him in thousands of years.  Human beings broke the contract, and each of us
have personally broken the contract, and continue to do so.  Yet He loves us
anyway, He pursues us in relationship anyway, and was willing to go so far as
to allow Himself to be put to death to re-establish the relationship that we
broke.

He called the prophet Hosea to model His relationship to us.  Hosea had a
wife who rejected him, was unfaithful to him, and left him to become a
prostitute.  Hosea went and searched her out, purchased her back from slavery
with his own funds, and restored her to a place of honor.  God calls us to do
no less.

Paul

    Paul is absolutely on target here - which is not to say that I don't
    hear the pain in Bob's note (.10) - but through the pain, there is
    Truth that *must* supersede our opinions.  Yes - marriage should be a
    picture of His love for us and unfaithfulness (on either partner's
    part) is tragic - but consider the Faithful One's love for we who are
    stiff-necked and contually unfaithful...
    
    Oh L-rd - if You kept a record of sins - WHO COULD STAND?
    
    As He has forgiven - so should we forgive.  He has promised that our
    sins are cast into the sea of forgetfulness - never to be remembered
    again.  That's forgiving *and* forgetting.
    
    That's how He loves us - even though not a single one of us deserves
    that love.
    
    I pray He helps you through what is obviously a VERY painful place,
    Bob, but that while that is in process, you seek His Truth above your
    own opinions.
    
    His best to you,
    
    Steve

    re .10  Is it not correct, that sexual sin is the one reason to be
    allowed out of the marriage, except of course death.
    
    While I want the couple to reunite, based on my understanding of how
    Jesus loves and the pain of divorce, I understand the pain caused by
    adultry.  I believe more happiness is possible if forgiveness and
    forgetting is possible.  This situation puts us in the position of
    choosing the best of what is left - God's way has been ignored and now
    we can resume or divorce - neither is His solution.
    
    

Oh, Lord, I'm sorry.  I saw the bit at the end of your note, Bob, about this
being from experience, and I just glossed over it in my rush to speak of our
need to forgive.  So here I am, speaking of the Lord's love and grace, while
in essence verbally whacking you about the head and shoulders with a blunt
instrument.  Please forgive me for my insensitive callousness.

I still believe exactly what I said, but the grace the Lord shows to us, and
which we are called to mirror to each other, was sadly lacking.  Sigh.  I
have so much to learn.

Paul

    .14
    
    Don't be too hard on yourself Paul!
    
    
    Let me do it!!!! :-)
    
    Seriously Bob, 
    
    I know the pain you feel is piercing, so let me gently remind you that
    forgiveness holds not resentment.  

I don't know what to say.  I could dispute what you say but it would be
pointless.  

Lord Jesus, pour your oil of forgiveness over Bob's heart.

Paul

I would not dispute how you feel, Bob.  I only have an inkling of the pain
you have gone through.  My heart aches for you.

But hard though it seems, I would dispute "what you have come to believe"
because of your feelings.  What you have come to believe makes perfect sense,
based on the feelings you have experienced.  But our feelings are never a
solid base upon which to form what we believe.  I don't believe that what you
have come to believe based on the terrible feelings that you have experienced
conforms to the Word at all.  

I can understand that you don't wish to argue, and I won't argue.  But - and
I don't know how to do this more gently - I do need to point out that there
is a significant discrepancy between what you have come to believe and what
Jesus taught us.

Paul

    Bob,
    
    I don't think anyone is disputing how you feel.  We know you are
    hurting.  However, we are not to be led by our feelings, but by our
    faith in what is real--God's Truth.  I have seen God heal hurts just as
    deep as yours.  You're right -- we CAN'T forget.  But, praise God, he
    can heal our past and remove our scars.  He can take our broken lives
    and make them BETTER than new.  He is hope for the hopeless.  He IS our
    strength and our hope.
    
    I wish there was some way that I could be there to share your hurt with
    you.  I AM praying for you that you would experience the reality of who
    you are in Christ--that you would experience the reality of being a
    child of the Everlasting Father--that you would Experience His
    overwhelming love for you.
    
    I love you brother,
    
    Bing

	The founders of Marriage Ministries International went into
	this ministry after the healing of their marriage following
	the husband's infidelity.

	FWIW

.23>

>    He has said that he forgives her..however she now feels
>    unworthy, she has trouble seeing how he can forgive her.  Yes, he has a
>    lack of trust, now, but he has said he trusts her.  She has been more of
>    a emotional wreck than he has been.  She weeps almost constantly, she 
>    knows she has broken her marriage contract before her husband and God.
>    They both are working hard at opening communication of their feelings
>    and talking about it.  She feels though that when she talks about it,
>    its like having to relive it..and the guilt.

Forgiven sin is gone; the feeling of guilt that remains is from the Devil
to defeat the Christian.  The two most crippling weapons Satan has against
Christians is worry (fear) - of the future, and guilt (feeling) of the past.
He doesn't have to even cause you to backslide into sin, folks, to neutralize
you with these weapons.

As for this poor woman, it is right to be humbled by this experience, and
to repent (turn from it to never return), and learn from this experience.
However, humility and feeling guilty are not the same thing.  It seems
trite to say that she should shed the guilty feeling.  Satan's bony, 
blood-stained finger pressed PLAY on the VCR of our brain.  But it is Satan
who does this.  Of course, you don't just ignore the past; it should serve
to show how dependent on God we are for our purity and chastity.

(Some people confuse humilty with self-effacement (belittling themselves).
This is wrong.  It would behoove us all to consider what humility actually
is, instead of what we kind of, sort of think and understand it to be.)

I am thankful that they intend to seek counselling with their Pastor.
Not all "christian counselling" is Christian unfortunately.  My brother 
divorced and I blame some rather unchristian counselling from a supposedly
Christian counsellor.  God seeks reconcilliation and not division.  There
may be *some* rare cases where reconcilliation is not possible or ill-advised.
These cases are not the norm, and all cases should be treated individually.

May the Lord restore this marriage and be their bond.  May the Lord free
this woman of the Accuser because He has freed her from her sin.  May the
Lord be glorified in their reunion.  Amen.

    Well said Mark. 
    
    I have been in both posistions unfortunately, however speaking from
    experience I know for a *fact* Gods will is to restore and that 
    longs to heal broken marriages. It is people in general who have a hard
    time forgiving.
    
    The return of the prodigal son illustrates beautifully the Fathers
    willingness to forgive and accept us. He runs out to us and takes us in
    no questions asked.
    
    So should it be with this individual, his wife has returned, I believe
    it is Gods will for him to run out to his wife and take her in no
    questions asked, just as the Father would and has done.
    
    Am I speaking from experience?  You better believe it!!
    
    Sylvain

    
    This song has been speaking to my heart recently; which is no surprise
    because God is teaching me about forgiveness, being on both the giving
    and receiving end, in a big way.  I feel it applies not only to this
    particular situation, but to any situation where hurts in a
    relationship exist.  The first step is to realize that WE CANNOT
    FORGIVE OF OURSELVES; we must be WILLING TO FORGIVE, surrender the hurt
    to God - then He will do the work IN OUR HEARTS to enable us to truly 
    forgive.  Richard, I am praying for your friend (and his wife) - a
    betrayal of this magnitude is just tragic, but we know that our GOD is
    so able to work it through with them.  Praying for you also that the
    Lord would continue to use you to minister to them and/or direct them
    for further help.   -Karen
    
    
    BEYOND JUSTICE TO MERCY - Susan Ashton
    
    
    I know we don't see eye to eye
    we've let angry hearts flare and the bitter words fly
    the common ground we used to share
    is harder to find, but I believe that its still there
    I don't know if now is the time
    to surrender the silence between your heart and mine
    but the love that I've chosen, cries out to be spoken
    leaving the heartache behind
    
    We must reach out beyond justice to mercy
    going more than half way to forgive 
    though the distance seems so far
    the love that used to hold our hearts 
    wants to take us beyond justice to mercy
    
    It doesn't matter whose to blame
    for the love that I have for you is still the same
    a tender voice is calling me
    to a place of compassion, where heart are pure and free
    where the hunger for vengence gives way to repentance
    and love will teach us to see
    
    We can reach out beyond justice to mercy
    going more than half way to forgive
    though the distance seems so far
    the love that used to hold our hearts 
    wants to take us beyond justice to mercy

I'm full of tears this morning.  Could you tell me which tape/CD that song is
on?

Paul

    re: last
    
    Paul - if you're crying now, you should hear it with the music!  :-)
    It's a very moving song - just beautiful.
    
    It's on her first CD - Wakened by the Wind (Susan Ashton).
    
    Karen