Conference yukon::christian_v7

I believe that in creating us as He did, with the capacity to have children,
that God is sharing with us His joy in creating and nurturing life.  God knew
before He created us that we were going to reject Him, that He was going to
be greived by our rejection, that He would be greatly saddened by all that
was going to happen to us.  He knew before He created us that He was going to
have to pay a huge personal price of pain for us.

He created us anyway.

The message to me has been that the joy of creation outweighs all the sorrow
that goes with it, even great sorrow.  I know full well that I may be deeply
wounded by the fact that I have children.  The world is a dangerous place,
rapture or not.  It always has been.  I know that horrible things may happen
to my children, the most horrible being that the world captures their mind
and that they reject the Lord.  I pray that the Lord protect them and guide
them.

Yet despite the risk, I wouldn't give up the joy for anything.  Even if I
spend eternity with a hole in my heart because one of my children isn't
there, I wouldn't go back and change it.  God will have that same ache for
those who have rejected Him.  Yet Hebrews says that Jesus, "...for the joy
set before Him endured the cross..."

For the joy set before me, I will endure the costs, even if that cost be very
great.

Paul

    RE:0

    If you believe in paradise with the Lord after this life, why not
    allow someone the chance of receiving it ?

    Also, although things in this world look bleak, its still a great
    experience. Think of the things God has blessed you with, will
    he not bless your children in the same ways ? 

    I can't tell you to have children, that's a choice you and your
    husband must make together, but the condition of the world, or
    the the world that you think might come, should not be a reason  
    for not sharing life with someone else. 

    If God blesses you with children, don't you think he'll provide for
    them even during  tribulation ?

    Trust God, not human reason.

    Peace
    Jim

   re: Karen,
       
>    Did any of you - who are now parents - struggle with any of these
>    issues?  How did you resolve them?

   Yep.  
   
   Faith, and trust, and prayer, and being fortunate to have been blessed
   with a wife who is not nearly as fatalistic as I am.  My oldest
   started kindergarten this year... if I dwelled on all that negative
   stuff (and I used to quite often), it would absolutely tear me up.  I
   have, out of necessity, had to simply let go of all that stuff over
   which I have virtually no control.  Its not easy some days - the fear
   can start to creep up if I let it, but I have to remember who is in
   charge here - and it ain't me!
   
   Peace,
   
   - Tom  (4 kids and loving it)

 "Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and 
  increase in number abnd fill the earth..."  
 "As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply upon the earth 
  and increase upon it"
							Genesis 9:1,7

 "A large population is a king's glory"
							Proverbs 14:28

I regard this as an outstanding command of God, and see things like the Cairo
'world population' convention as overt rebellion against the LORD God our
Creator.  They look ahead with eyes that cannot see, and fear the result of a
populated world.  This is because they have fear in their hearts instead of
that perfect love which casts out fear.  Just as the early worldlings couldn't
trust God's promise not to flood the earth, in Genesis 11, so these one's have
no understanding that complete world population is a valid part of God's plan
of fulfillment for this world. 

This is also reflected in abortion - the devil hates all these little images
of God, multiplying under his very nose, so leverages those in bondage to fear
to destroy themselves... 

However, we are not in darkness... (1 Thessalonians 5:4).  We can endeavour to
fulfill God's command with the total knowledge that He will bring all things
to their fulfillment at the proper time - which includes a populated world. 

Karen,  I have often thought how awful a place this world has become for
christian children to grow up in.  And that it is growing worse by leaps and
bounds.  Nevertheless, this has a purpose even in God's plan.  In suffering we
glorify Him, and achieve a greater resurrection (Hebrews 11:35).  These are
building blocks for our eternity, and for our childrens'... 

When I see someone removed - as my friend Peter was 1� weeks ago, I have to
turn to Isaiah 57:1 :  "The righteous perish, and no-one ponders it in his
heart; devout men are   taken away, and no-one understands that the righteous
are taken away to   be spared from evil." 

God can give those growing up a brief life, protecting them from the evil of
the world (remember Keith Green's prayer for his son, who died with him in the
plane crash?). 

Equally, He can make our children spiritually strong through trials and
torture - remember Mary, the mother of Jesus, standing by the cross, and what
her heart had to bear? - not 'incidental and unfortunately unavoidable
suffering', but refinement of heart and spirit towards a great resurrection...

Similarly, He can shield them and take them through all sorts of situations
unscathed, equally for His glory (1 Peter 1:5).  We would, humanly, see the
last as desirable, and the others as less satisfactory, but that is not how I
believe God sees them at all, from how such situations are reflected in the
Word. 

In children, as in everything else, the only optimum is in yielding to His
will, and setting self aside.  Even so, 'having children' is a totally natural
desire - He has made it something we normally want for personal fulfillment,
rather than being an onerous task....  That's true in so many ways... 

 "This is love for God: to obey His commands.  And His commands are not 
  burdensome..."
						1 John 5:3

Don't look at the world around; look at the Father Who loves us, created us,
died for us...  and in Whose image we are made... 


� the Lord revealed to me that it was my fear of the unknown/end times and 
� fear that my children will have an unhappy/painful childhood 
like I did.

With the LORD in your life, and in your husband's life - in your home - you
can expect to be able to give your children a security in their hearts that
will overcome all opposition.  Will give them, maybe, something of the
childhood you think a child should have, while they are there.  Not that you
can ghuarantee their salvation - though I and my wife prayed that we wouldn't
have children, rather than have children who did not walk with the LORD.  That
alternative seemed too distressing to me, to see my own children growing up
towards eternal fire, and a wasted life... 

And God will not ignore your prayers.  You *are* His child, and He loves you
no less than you would one of your own children.... 

The time of tribulation will come.  Many believe that the rapture will lift
all God's children out of trouble before it starts, but I do not share that
view.  I believe that He is preparing a special glory for those who stand
through that time.  While I would not desire a difficult path for my sons - or
their children, if they ever get that far! - I would be grateful if their
lives (or mine) could bring the peak of honour to God, by showing that His
love is greater than death. 

Last week I went to St Andrews to pick up Dermot, my oldest, who had just
finished his MLitt in Medi�val History.  I had some spare time there, and in
going round the town was moved by the initials set in stone of men who had
been martyred for preaching the truth.  Including Patrick Hamilton, burnt at
the stake at the age of 24 - Dermot's age ....  Was Patrick's life wasted? 
Should he have been 'quieter' on behalf of the LORD who died at the age of 33
for all of us?  I would be absolutely heartbroken if that happened to one of
my sons.  But at the same time I would be prouder of them than any worldly
honour could bring....  And possibly just a little jealous.  [ That's 'proud'
and 'jealous' in quite spiritually acceptable ways of course...  Unless the
LORD knows it would go to my head too much, so hasn't permitted it.  Yet. ;-} ] 

						God bless
								Andrew

    
    I concur with the others' comments.  However, I would more strongly
    iterate that the fear of the future must not dictate any action
    whatsoever.  Fear is not of God, we're told in the Bible.
    
    Also, I suspect strongly that the full appreciation for God as Father
    and our relationship to Him cannot be achieved without our own
    experience as parents.  If fear must drive you let it be the fear of
    not knowing God in a deeper fashion.
    
    Raising children is a formidable, often thankless task.  But it is a
    joy beyond comprehension if you do not have any.  Raising children
    breeds maturity in the individual and teaches a great deal about
    sacrifice, love, selflessness, character, choices and more.  Much
    character may be added to the Christian parent raising a family.
    
    A look at the alternative is appropriate.  If you can have children but
    choose not to, what will become of your life?  How simple (but not
    mandatory) it is for the purposefully childless couple to indulge in
    selfish pursuits only.  It is our nature.
    
    If God has granted you the biological ability to bear children, I
    strongly recommend that you do so.  In fact, I urge you to do so.  Life
    is not about avoiding hardship but about  building godly character and
    enjoying it!
    
    jeff

    My son Matthew revealed to me yesterday that he had a dream of
    Revelations and of the creature [I can't even remember it] with the
    scorpion tail.. but the thing that impressed him the most about this
    dream is that he wasn't scared!
    
    He said, Mom, I just know God's going to take care of me, I woke up
    feeling great and actually enjoyed the visions of my dream, even though
    they would have been scarey I think to most.
    
    This discussion sparked the interest of my younger son who couldn't
    determine what he wanted to be when he grew up; policeman, missionary
    or military service [defending freedom as he put it], BTW, he's 7 years
    old.  Then the discussion of perils for being a policeman were brought
    up.  If the Lord tarries, Matthew said, being a policeman will mean
    that you most likely will be shot, it'll be worse than today.  
    
    Matthew, I said, being a missionary will have the same peril. What???
    he said.  I explained how in Revelations it says the Christians will be
    persecuted and that we will be asked to take the mark of the antiChrist
    or die.  
    
    I told them that I hoped that they would be able to stand for the Lord
    and we talked about their fears, their fear of pain and suffering,
    their fear of death [wanting to live, not salvation] and I must admit
    it was heart rendering.  It was an intense deep conversation and really
    necessary.
    
    Now, Mom's reaction to this conversation and potential reality for the
    future of my boys as Christians:
    
    1.  Concern - concern they won't meet the battle if I don't 
        prepare them for it.
    
    2.  Peace - that God would choose them to be here now and 
        a part of the battle.
    
    3.  Comfort - in knowing no matter what they choose, God's secured
        their salvations early in life.
    
    4.  Regret - Very little.. very, very little.  I have said that 
        I am glad that I didn't have any more children then my two
        because of the lack of quality life for them in the future.
        But truthfully I don't think we really understand what quality
        is... what could be a more quality life then to be on the front
        lines with Jesus... look at Paul and how we admire, love 
        and use him as a role model.. but he suffered more then we can
        even imagine.
    
    5.  Trust - I trust God knows more than me.
    
    Love in Him,
    Nancy

    Thanks to all who replied, especially Paul & Andrew.
    
    I KNOW all of these things - I know them in my head, but they have not
    taken root in my heart yet.  Fear is not of God - it's satan's tool
    against me, he knows the weak spots.  I do need to trust Him
    more...that He will give me the grace to handle whatever comes my way -
    IF and WHEN it does come; I have to stop second-guessing God and what I
    think He may or may not allow to happen in my life.  Trust is so very
    hard for me.  But I know that the Lord is slowly bringing me around in
    this area, even for the fact that I had the courage to bring this
    problem here, and trust that no one would condemn me for feeling the
    way I do, knowing that someone, at least one, would understand.
    
    Thanks for reinforcing these things and pray that I KNOW that I KNOW
    that I KNOW.....beyond a shadow of doubt.
    
    Karen

    We'll be gone by the time the Great Tribulation unfolds, but that
    doesn't mean we'll escape all of the world's tribulation beforehand. 
    You could't convince Christians in China, Iraq, or Iran of that.
    
    Having said that, children are a blessing from the Lord and it is
    wonderful to teach them the things of God and rejoice and praise Him
    with them.  They share in that "Blessed Hope" with us.
    
    In fact, my little 4-year old praiser asked me the other morning, "Is
    Jesus coming today?"  
    
    Maranatha!
    Mike

My wife used to specualte as to what might happen if the Lord came
back and raptured us while she was pregnant.  Interesting thoughts.

I am a parent of four children in this messed up world.  They are
beyond my dreams of wonderful kids and I thank my Father in heaven 
for His guidance in rearing them.  Light and salt in a dangerous world.
I want to protect them, but I cannot.  But God is my Father and He can.

This isn't some wishy washy theology that God is going to prevent 
my child from being hit by a car.  But it does say that I have come
to commend my children to His hands and that anything that may happen
must pass through His watchful care.  We all go through hardship and
some of us experience true tragedy.  But there is a difference.  Someone
once said that when a pagan gets cancer, a Christian gets cancer so
that the world can know the difference.  While not likely to be accurate
in number, I believe that what happens to us is for the world to know
the difference God makes in our lives.

We've had four children.  The first child was easy!  The second two took
3 and 11 months to conceive, and the fourth child was planned and conceived
with natural family planning.  None of our children was a mistake and we
fool ourselves more than we know about the control we have over having
children.  We've stopped having children (surgically) and are growing 
our family.

Is there heartache?  You bet.  I've seen it and been a part of it.
Is there a messed up world?  You bet.  We're in it.
But is it worth having children?  You bet.  But only if you are first
dedicated to God, secondly dedicate your as-yet-to-be-concieved and
unborn children to God, and thirdly dedicate your children to God.
Then, come what may, there is joy in parenting beyond your dreams
and blessing beyond measure.

Mark

    First of all, I have three sons, ages 38, 35 and 13.  In addition, I
    have a child of unknown sex, who would have been about 6, had there not
    been a natural abortion. In all four cases, my reasoning was this:
    
    Should I take into my hands the decision not to trust The Lord.  Am I
    so magnificent in my knowledge that I know these children should not
    be born?  My first two boys lost their mother when they were 17 and 14,
    which was a difficult blow, but I could have kept them from birth, so
    they would not have had to face that horrible day.
    
    To me, the decision has awesome responsibility and when I think about
    it, I have no right to make that decision.  I find that the decision
    not to have children is too presumptious for me to make.
    
    In His love,
    
    Daryl

� None of our children was a mistake and we fool ourselves more than we
� know about the control we have over having children....

Hi Mark,

There is no such thing as a 'mistake' where children are concerned.  To label
one as such, just because our limited human understanding did not arrogantly
decide that 'It is time for another human to enter the world' is to steal
God's glory. 

� The second two took 3 and 11 months to conceive, and ...
You could as accurately say that the 2 and 10 months of not conceiving *were*
a mistake, as to think of any conception is a mistake... 

Psalm 127:3 says :
   "Sons are a heritage from the LORD, children a reward from Him.

Every person born is a result of the LORD's direct intervention, blessing with
the reality of a living, eternal soul.  Every person is as valid as any other
person.  My children, though under my authority (particularly in their
upbringing) are every bit as valid as I am.  It is as inconceivable for them
to decide that I (and any coming from me) am a mistake, as it is for me to
judge so about them. 

Many people go through life under terrible handicaps, because a parent (or
other dominant adult) has judged them badly in early life.  We should beware
of taking such an attitude. 

I know that you were probably only refering to a material dimension in your
statement, but I feel it is very important to differentiate here.  Too many
people read simplified 'mistake' as something which just should not be.
Especially children, who are made to feel small for 'mistakes' at school, as
things which just should not exist.  We are each honoured to occupy God's
image, at his permission, choice and bidding, and we should be encouraged to
take pride in the One Whom we imitate and rise to the potential He has given
us; not to judge ourselves at the fallen valuation of man. 

I have mentioned that I'm adopted.  This was through a society which cares for
unmarried mothers and their children.  In man's eyes - even in the eyes of my
mother - the event which gave rise to my existance was almost certainly a
'mistake'.  That does not make me, the result, 'a mistake'.  If it did,
annihilating me might go some way towards righting the wrong of that mistake. 
On the contrary, my annihilation by man's choice would be a sin ... Phew!

In her last pregnancy, my wife was advised to have an abortion (by a close
relative, without even a medical excuse).  I thought the suggestion was mere
careless stupidity stemming from ignorance and fear, and dismissed it as such.
But she was quite upset by it, as it seemed to her to be already personally
directed at the child who was our fourth son. 

Sorry to make such an issue of something which was probably just a different
terminology, but the force and implication of the simple words is
mind-bendingly destructive, and I feel it essential to make the issue crystal
clear.  Not in case someone thinks they're the world a favour by calling round
to annihilate me ;-), but for the balanced start, and self-acceptance in life
of every baby born ....

Oh yes - man might annihilate my physical body and life, but he can't do a
thing to touch my eternal life.  That *cannot* be a mistake, in any
dimension... 

On another point ...

� Someone once said that when a pagan gets cancer, a Christian gets cancer so
� that the world can know the difference.  While not likely to be accurate ...
Edith Schaeffer wrote a book in which she stressed God's glory demonstrated in 
Christians who both go through suffering of specific types, and are delivered 
from it.  eg, One Christian may be miraculously healed from, say cancer, while 
another dies from exactly the same form of the illness.  God is manifest in 
both lives, and the fullness of His glory is equally valid and relevant in 
both demonstrations.  As He is in many other Christians who don't even get the 
disease.  Sorry.  Name of the book eludes me for the moment.


					God bless
							Andrew 

btw, I meant to include this in my earlier reply...

  "For this is what the LORD says -
    He Who created the heavens, He is God;
   He Who fashioned it and made the earth, He founded it;
    He did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited...

							Isaiah 45:18



Andrew

.11 Andrew

Did you read in my note that you thought I thought of any of my
children as mistakes?????  Or were you just expanding on one of my 
comments?

Mark

    You've got to decide for yourself if children are what God would have
    for you. You can't decide on the basis of what life might be like or
    whether you think you'll be up to the task. You need to ask God what He
    wants and be obedient to that. Besides, He's the one who ultimately
    decides whether children come or not. Prayer is the key. Don't try to
    guess what life might be like for children if you have them - you
    really have no way of knowing what God's plans for them might be.
    
    I resisted the idea of having children for years. It wasn't until God
    whacked me with Eph. 5:25 and started convicting me that my
    unwillingness to have children was because of my selfishness. He gave
    me the strength (at least on this one occasion ;-) to "love my wife as
    Christ loved the church - *and gave Himself for her*". (Side story how
    this relates, and I don't think it's relevant.)
    
    Even after I became convicted to go for it, it took a *long time* to
    become comfortable with the idea of being a father. We worked for
    months trying to get pregnant with our first. After trying for so long,
    we both came to the conclusion that we'll try for one more month, and
    if it doesn't take we'll quit trying and hope to determine what God had
    been trying to teach us through it all. Well, that last month was the
    one God allowed Cheryl to get pregnant.
    
    I must respectfully disagree with Andrew. I do not believe that God's
    command to Adam (or Noah) to "replenish the earth" applies to all
    people (or even all believers) everywhere. Those accounts are narration
    and apply to very specific (and unique) circumstance. Accordingly, I
    don't believe anyone should appeal to those verses in an attempt to
    show that it is God's plan for everyone to have as many children as
    they possibly can. (I realize, Andrew, that you didn't exactly say
    this, but I believe it's the logical extension of appealing to those
    verses.)
    
    I also echo Mike's remark. Christians (and young children) won't be
    here during the Tribulation anyway! Hallellujah!
    
    	BD�

Hi Mark,

591.13� .11 Andrew
591.13� 
591.13� Did you read in my note that you thought I thought of any of my
591.13� children as mistakes?????  Or were you just expanding on one of my 
591.13� comments?

Your claim that *none* of your children were mistakes implied that some
children are mistakes.  While I know that you meant it merely in relation
to your particular actions as (potential) parents, it implies the corollary
that some childeren *are* 'mistakes'.  The implication that any child can
be considered as a 'mistake' is a cruel and harmful one.  The use of the
expression should be heavily qualified, if used at all in this context.  
I'm sorry if this wasn't clear from .11!



And Barry ... ;-)
591.14� I must respectfully disagree with Andrew. I do not believe that God's
591.14� command to Adam (or Noah) to "replenish the earth" applies to all people
591.14� (or even all believers) everywhere. Those accounts are narration and 
591.14� apply to very specific (and unique) circumstance. 

I was not intending to imply that God's purpose for all people - or even
for all couples, regardless, is a blanket one to marry and have children.
Some are unable, some have a gift of celibacy, etc etc, as referred to
elsewhere in scripture.  However, there is a normal urge put within mankind
to populate the earth.  Now no one person (nor even any one couple;-) could
do this on their own.  Not even Noah & (extended) family.  So I take the
Noahic commands there to apply to mankind, who are needed to cooperate in
this matter, rather than to one busy busy family... 

591.14� Accordingly, I don't believe anyone should appeal to those verses in 
591.14� an attempt to show that it is God's plan for everyone to have as many
591.14� children as they possibly can. 

To even imply such a ridiculous extreme is to reduce the discussion to
nonsense.  To 'have as many children as possible', however, would have been
the only logical extension if you gave the whole task to Noah's family
alone, in contravention to the natural interpretation of the passage. 

God deals with us as individuals, working within a general framework of 
laws.  To state a general rule is not to make a law of it; rather a 
guideline.

The completion of the population of the earth is something which one would 
naturally expect to achieve completion over the total span of the earth's 
existance.  Not in the first generation or so.  One fulfillment of the 
earth's purpose is to be populated (Isaiah 45:18, as in .12).

I hope this clarifies what I was trying to say, somewhat!

						God bless
							Andrew

Perhaps more direct than the Noahic command of Genesis 9, is the creation 
ordinance of Genesis 1:28 :

 "God blessed them and said to them "Be fruitful and increase in number; 
  fill the earth and subdue it.  Rule over the fish of the sea and the
  birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the 
  ground."

If the first part of the command is limited to those who received it
directly, then so is the second.  If the second command is a creation
ordinance to all mankind (as is generally accepted), then it follows that
the first is also a creation ordinance... 

						God bless
								Andrew

>Your claim that *none* of your children were mistakes implied that some
>children are mistakes.  While I know that you meant it merely in relation
>to your particular actions as (potential) parents, it implies the corollary
>that some childeren *are* 'mistakes'.  The implication that any child can
>be considered as a 'mistake' is a cruel and harmful one.  The use of the
>expression should be heavily qualified, if used at all in this context.
>I'm sorry if this wasn't clear from .11!

The only distinction I was making was that even though one of my children
was conceived without "trying" and three were conceived "not by our
schedule", none of this was by accident or a mistake.

To many families, conception is an error, a mishap, or a mistake -
unintentional.  We agree that this is a harmful perception of these many
families.  I was merely declaring my understanding of a pregnancy that
we did not intend, but joyfully received.

Mark

	Karen,

	I thought of you last night.  When Andrew woke up at 11:15,
	after I'd just fallen asleep, my flesh was quite grumpy,
	and I tried to wait him out.  I quickly realized Andrew was
	not going to just go back to sleep, so I got him up and
	began to nurse him.

	The most wonderful peace came over me then.  I sat there, staring
	at him, watching him nurse, listening to him swallow, watching
	his little hand open and close rythmically as he ate with his
	eyes closed.  I reached out to stroke his just-washed hair
	and was flooded with love for him.  In the midst of the chaos
	that was last night, he brought me such peace and joy that 
	I'd have stayed up with him all night.

	Then I thought of you...  no matter what this world brings, I'd
	do it over and over and over again!

	Karen

	

    re: .18
    
    Thanks for sharing that.....it's like you just painted a beautiful
    picture for me.
    
    Karen

Life with children gives many blessed moments.  Your story recalls one for me
that was nearly 7 years ago now - and still brings a smile and sometimes a
tear.

My son Ben was just 2, at that stage where he had begun to be able to
communicate, but couldn't communicate clearly yet.  With effort and many
false starts, he could sometimes get his ideas across.  He was sick with a
fever and feeling miserable, and I was up holding him at 2:00 or 3:00 in the
morning.

He started to try to ask me something.  First he said something about reading
a book.  I said "No, Ben.  It's 2:00 in the morning, we're not going to read
a book now."  But that wasn't all of what he was trying to say.  He kept at
it, and managed to convey that he wanted me to read his Bible story book to
him. (Read Aloud Bible Stories, which I've spoken of before.  Great for
little kids, with big pictures and short, clear stories).  I smiled, but I
told him that while that was a wonderful book to want to read, it was still
the middle of the night and we weren't reading a book now.

He persisted.  Remember that this is all in partial words.  He then said
"Bar-may-us".  He wanted a particular story - the story of Bartimaeus.  I was
about to tell him again that he had chosen a wonderful story but that we
still weren't going to read it now, when I realized what the story was about-
of Bartimaeus asking Jesus to heal him.  So I asked him "Do you want to ask
Jesus to heal you like he did Bartimaeus?"  "YES," he said, with a sigh of
relief through his whole body that he had managed to communicate what he had
wanted to say.

So I held my beautiful boy, who was barely able to speak yet had come to
Jesus to ask for His Grace, Mercy, and Healing, and prayed for him.  He
settled down in my arms, and in five minutes was peacefully asleep.  I held
him for a while longer, loving him and praising Jesus, and then put him in
his bed.  He slept soundly all night, and awoke without a trace of his fever.


Paul

    Thanks Karen and Paul for sharing those wonderful moments!
    
    Bing